[Canadian Politics] Protest or Pro-pipe?

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    sure, except this isn't gonna work. the pipeline is being built either way and the public doesn't back the protests. This isn't some sort of civil rights protest where a minority wants to vote or something.

    Like I get it but all this is doing is dragging out this process.

    So? This may not be important enough to you, but it's everything to the people who live on land that may become a toxic disaster if these pipelines get built.
    so?

    edit - to be less snarky, it super sucks for them but it's happening so I just don't know where we go from here. Like this is clearly an issue between hereditary chiefs and elected ones, as "joe canadian" i have no fucking idea how they can fix this issue but like.. it's too late?

    It's not.

    The more information that comes out, the more obvious it is that the BC government is violating a Supreme Court order, and that they have been working with industry for the last 23 years to force First Nations to surrender their land claims.

    Let me be absolutely clear:

    We are the baddies, here.

    So I support their fight, no matter how hopeless it is, because it is right.

    What does it look like if they win, then?

    (edit: Apparently that came off worse than intended and the question works fine without it.)

    Tenek on
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    In this case? The government and industry respects their rights.

    The government doesn't just get to take your land away with no due process. Industry doesn't just get to build whatever they want on your land without your permission. Even if every one of your neighbours says yes, and you say no, their votes doesn't overrule yours when it comes to your property.

    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    What does it look like if they win, then? I'm assuming this doesn't mean they get to be a separate country with a seat at the UN, but if I'm wrong about that, now would be a good time to find out.

    I know that dismissive sneering at FN disputes is a Canadian pastime but I'm not sure that kind of response is useful or necessary.

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    In this case? The government and industry respects their rights.

    The government doesn't just get to take your land away with no due process. Industry doesn't just get to build whatever they want on your land without your permission. Even if every one of your neighbours says yes, and you say no, their votes doesn't overrule yours when it comes to your property.

    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.

    And thus thousands of people would each be able to veto any project on... what, 22,000 square km of land? That just means nothing can happen there. Ever.

    Just because people are racist doesn't mean you can write off all possible objections as racism. Losing a vote and attacking the concept of voting is pretty ridiculous on its face.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    In this case? The government and industry respects their rights.

    The government doesn't just get to take your land away with no due process. Industry doesn't just get to build whatever they want on your land without your permission. Even if every one of your neighbours says yes, and you say no, their votes doesn't overrule yours when it comes to your property.

    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.

    And thus thousands of people would each be able to veto any project on... what, 22,000 square km of land? That just means nothing can happen there. Ever.

    Just because people are racist doesn't mean you can write off all possible objections as racism. Losing a vote and attacking the concept of voting is pretty ridiculous on its face.

    Except your neighbors don't have the right to just say there'll be a vote on whether you lose your property. Which is kind of the point - the tribe in question did not agree to this under their laws, so the government has no right to move them.

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Tenek wrote: »
    What does it look like if they win, then? I'm assuming this doesn't mean they get to be a separate country with a seat at the UN, but if I'm wrong about that, now would be a good time to find out.

    I know that dismissive sneering at FN disputes is a Canadian pastime but I'm not sure that kind of response is useful or necessary.

    I thought it would be helpful to clarify that if actual independence is not on the table, there's no option that doesn't involve First Nations being subject to Canadian laws and courts, and ask what concrete remedy is available. "Respect their rights" is fuzzy enough that it can mean anything or nothing. "Give these 5 people a permanent right to negotiate on behalf of their people" would be doable, if you consider that acceptable.

  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    Quite a few voices talking up in the past few days over the whole thing.

    Scheer was pretty careful to call out the non indigenous protestors. One of Wetsu'wet'en herditary wing chiefs called out 'professional protestors' too, saying they're in it because it advances their own agenda, they don't give a shit about the Wetsu'wet'en. You also have some of the Wetsu'wet'en members piping up saying they're for the pipeline, but feel bullied into silence by the hereditary chiefs and other members. You also have a Wetsu'wet'en member who works for the gas company talking about some of the misconceptions about the line that they want to run.

    I don't believe any indigenous to just be lazy or rich any more than I think asian people are all good at math or all white people like mayo. People don't support them for a number of reasons, from simple indifference to seeing a real benefit to that natural gas pipeline vs sending it out by train. Sounds like a fair number of other groups along the way feel exactly the same.

    Hardtarget
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    In this case? The government and industry respects their rights.

    The government doesn't just get to take your land away with no due process. Industry doesn't just get to build whatever they want on your land without your permission. Even if every one of your neighbours says yes, and you say no, their votes doesn't overrule yours when it comes to your property.

    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.

    And thus thousands of people would each be able to veto any project on... what, 22,000 square km of land? That just means nothing can happen there. Ever.

    Just because people are racist doesn't mean you can write off all possible objections as racism. Losing a vote and attacking the concept of voting is pretty ridiculous on its face.

    We have shown you how the Supreme Court of Canada ruled regarding their title claim. We have shown you how the hereditary chiefs have a valid legal claim over stewardship of that land according to Canadian law. You keep insisting that because there was a vote, the law doesn't matter, and we can just go in and remove whoever we want from their land, arrest whoever we want, take whatever we want. Because there was a vote, and that's all that matters to you.

    But that's not the case. And your insistence that none of their legal rights matter, none of those cases matters because one time some people voted is absolutely ridiculous.

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    Nosf wrote: »
    Quite a few voices talking up in the past few days over the whole thing.

    Scheer was pretty careful to call out the non indigenous protestors. One of Wetsu'wet'en herditary wing chiefs called out 'professional protestors' too, saying they're in it because it advances their own agenda, they don't give a shit about the Wetsu'wet'en. You also have some of the Wetsu'wet'en members piping up saying they're for the pipeline, but feel bullied into silence by the hereditary chiefs and other members. You also have a Wetsu'wet'en member who works for the gas company talking about some of the misconceptions about the line that they want to run.

    I don't believe any indigenous to just be lazy or rich any more than I think asian people are all good at math or all white people like mayo. People don't support them for a number of reasons, from simple indifference to seeing a real benefit to that natural gas pipeline vs sending it out by train. Sounds like a fair number of other groups along the way feel exactly the same.

    I don't think for a minute that there's unanimous support either way.

    My objection, right now is less about the pipeline itself, and more about how we have deliberately obfuscated the First Nations legal claims in order to be able to skirt law and deny them due process. There are years of documents just revealed by a FOIP request that show the BC government and oil and forestry industry were working together to bribe and intimidate First Nations to surrender their legal rights to their land, all as a result of the 1997 ruling on the Delgamuukw case. The BC government conspired to use funds that had been set aside to support survivors of the residential schools to use as bribes.

    We need to recognize the legal claim they have to this land. We need clarify the legal process to industry getting permission to develop this land. Until that happens, we are still acting as a colonial power engaged in a cultural genocide.

    Nova_C on
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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Quite a few voices talking up in the past few days over the whole thing.

    Scheer was pretty careful to call out the non indigenous protestors. One of Wetsu'wet'en herditary wing chiefs called out 'professional protestors' too, saying they're in it because it advances their own agenda, they don't give a shit about the Wetsu'wet'en. You also have some of the Wetsu'wet'en members piping up saying they're for the pipeline, but feel bullied into silence by the hereditary chiefs and other members. You also have a Wetsu'wet'en member who works for the gas company talking about some of the misconceptions about the line that they want to run.

    I don't believe any indigenous to just be lazy or rich any more than I think asian people are all good at math or all white people like mayo. People don't support them for a number of reasons, from simple indifference to seeing a real benefit to that natural gas pipeline vs sending it out by train. Sounds like a fair number of other groups along the way feel exactly the same.

    I don't think for a minute that there's unanimous support either way.

    My objection, right now is less about the pipeline itself, and more about how we have deliberately obfuscated the First Nations legal claims in order to be able to skirt law and deny them due process. There are years of documents just revealed by a FOIP request that show the BC government and oil and forestry industry were working together to bribe and intimidate First Nations to surrender their legal rights to their land, all as a result of the 1997 ruling on the Delgamuukw case. The BC government conspired to use funds that had been set aside to support survivors of the residential schools to use as bribes.

    We need to recognize the legal claim they have to this land. We need clarify the legal process to industry getting permission to develop this land. Until that happens, we are still acting as a colonial power engaged in a cultural genocide.

    Hmm. Illegal coercion would normally be held to invalidate a contract, wouldn't it?

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Quite a few voices talking up in the past few days over the whole thing.

    Scheer was pretty careful to call out the non indigenous protestors. One of Wetsu'wet'en herditary wing chiefs called out 'professional protestors' too, saying they're in it because it advances their own agenda, they don't give a shit about the Wetsu'wet'en. You also have some of the Wetsu'wet'en members piping up saying they're for the pipeline, but feel bullied into silence by the hereditary chiefs and other members. You also have a Wetsu'wet'en member who works for the gas company talking about some of the misconceptions about the line that they want to run.

    I don't believe any indigenous to just be lazy or rich any more than I think asian people are all good at math or all white people like mayo. People don't support them for a number of reasons, from simple indifference to seeing a real benefit to that natural gas pipeline vs sending it out by train. Sounds like a fair number of other groups along the way feel exactly the same.

    I don't think for a minute that there's unanimous support either way.

    My objection, right now is less about the pipeline itself, and more about how we have deliberately obfuscated the First Nations legal claims in order to be able to skirt law and deny them due process. There are years of documents just revealed by a FOIP request that show the BC government and oil and forestry industry were working together to bribe and intimidate First Nations to surrender their legal rights to their land, all as a result of the 1997 ruling on the Delgamuukw case. The BC government conspired to use funds that had been set aside to support survivors of the residential schools to use as bribes.

    We need to recognize the legal claim they have to this land. We need clarify the legal process to industry getting permission to develop this land. Until that happens, we are still acting as a colonial power engaged in a cultural genocide.

    Hmm. Illegal coercion would normally be held to invalidate a contract, wouldn't it?

    I would think so?

    CanadianWolverine
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The problem with the Conservative party splitting is that then they could never win power. It's why the merger happened in the first place.

    On the other hand, actual conservative policy used to be more of a bedrock for all the parties, which saw the Chrétien and Martin government doing a ton to lower the deficit and pay off the debt.

    Merging with the Reform led to them ballooning the deficit.

    So while going right wing got them in office it lost them policy goals.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    I mean, they can pinch your land if it's in the public interest even if you're white.

    shryke
  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    In this case? The government and industry respects their rights.

    The government doesn't just get to take your land away with no due process. Industry doesn't just get to build whatever they want on your land without your permission. Even if every one of your neighbours says yes, and you say no, their votes doesn't overrule yours when it comes to your property.

    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.

    And thus thousands of people would each be able to veto any project on... what, 22,000 square km of land? That just means nothing can happen there. Ever.

    Just because people are racist doesn't mean you can write off all possible objections as racism. Losing a vote and attacking the concept of voting is pretty ridiculous on its face.

    Except your neighbors don't have the right to just say there'll be a vote on whether you lose your property. Which is kind of the point - the tribe in question did not agree to this under their laws, so the government has no right to move them.

    At an individual level... eminent domain is a thing, so I'm not sure how well that analogy holds up. But if we're talking about the entire tribe's land - some people support the pipeline, and some don't, and that's as far as you get without voting.

  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    In this case? The government and industry respects their rights.

    The government doesn't just get to take your land away with no due process. Industry doesn't just get to build whatever they want on your land without your permission. Even if every one of your neighbours says yes, and you say no, their votes doesn't overrule yours when it comes to your property.

    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.

    And thus thousands of people would each be able to veto any project on... what, 22,000 square km of land? That just means nothing can happen there. Ever.

    Just because people are racist doesn't mean you can write off all possible objections as racism. Losing a vote and attacking the concept of voting is pretty ridiculous on its face.

    Except your neighbors don't have the right to just say there'll be a vote on whether you lose your property. Which is kind of the point - the tribe in question did not agree to this under their laws, so the government has no right to move them.

    At an individual level... eminent domain is a thing, so I'm not sure how well that analogy holds up. But if we're talking about the entire tribe's land - some people support the pipeline, and some don't, and that's as far as you get without voting.

    Yes, but eminent domain isn't being invoked and would be its own whole legal battle. And would require the government to admit they're taking the land by force.

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

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  • The Cow KingThe Cow King scuz me ur under dog arrest Registered User regular
    I mean y'all should just say you think colonist Canada was created as legitimate nation and owns all the territories under its borders and it uses its own laws and institutions and white supremacists capitalism to enforce it

    The BC government had two decades to do something it went with eradication and assimilation and your all complaining removing the only history and culture this country has left us taking to long, to make some money

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Okay, then, let's expand that. There are many reasons why people do not support the Wesu'wet'en. And they all boil down to racism.

    The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in their favour over their claim to this land in 1997. And the BC government and oil industry are just straight up ignoring that ruling.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Steelhawk
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    I meant rich as in the government just gives them money. People think First Nations are living like kings on tax money.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    I hear it constantly - really ridiculous claims like "they can just requisition large TVs or cars at will" type stuff.

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Do you guys only talk to conservative supporters or something? Like my mom says stupid shit like that but I can't think of a single time that has ever come up with anybody I associate with.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

    See, I've heard that, but that's more in the context of living off the dole (with the various class-based implications of that) rather then living the rich life.

    Steelhawk
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Do you guys only talk to conservative supporters or something? Like my mom says stupid shit like that but I can't think of a single time that has ever come up with anybody I associate with.

    Nope, I've caught my friends (At least the Albertan ones), who are socially pretty liberal, saying shit like that. That does not fly around me.

    But even in broader terms, the only place I've ever lived where there seemed to be some awareness of the realities facing First Nations is here in Yellowknife. Everywhere else I've lived, everyone, even people who considered themselves 'woke' hated anything that a First Nations tribe or clan did to make their voice heard. Everyone wants to be able to safely ignore the continuing atrocity that is our treatment of aboriginal peoples.

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    In this case? The government and industry respects their rights.

    The government doesn't just get to take your land away with no due process. Industry doesn't just get to build whatever they want on your land without your permission. Even if every one of your neighbours says yes, and you say no, their votes doesn't overrule yours when it comes to your property.

    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.

    And thus thousands of people would each be able to veto any project on... what, 22,000 square km of land? That just means nothing can happen there. Ever.

    Just because people are racist doesn't mean you can write off all possible objections as racism. Losing a vote and attacking the concept of voting is pretty ridiculous on its face.

    We have shown you how the Supreme Court of Canada ruled regarding their title claim. We have shown you how the hereditary chiefs have a valid legal claim over stewardship of that land according to Canadian law. You keep insisting that because there was a vote, the law doesn't matter, and we can just go in and remove whoever we want from their land, arrest whoever we want, take whatever we want. Because there was a vote, and that's all that matters to you.

    But that's not the case. And your insistence that none of their legal rights matter, none of those cases matters because one time some people voted is absolutely ridiculous.

    The vote isn't all that matters, but it does matter. That's how you get legitimacy. One side has it and the other isn't interested.

    If the Supreme Court ends up ruling that the hereditary chiefs actually do have the legal right to block the pipeline it'll be a pretty ugly endorsement of feudalism.

  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Do you guys only talk to conservative supporters or something? Like my mom says stupid shit like that but I can't think of a single time that has ever come up with anybody I associate with.

    Nope, I've caught my friends (At least the Albertan ones), who are socially pretty liberal, saying shit like that. That does not fly around me.

    But even in broader terms, the only place I've ever lived where there seemed to be some awareness of the realities facing First Nations is here in Yellowknife. Everywhere else I've lived, everyone, even people who considered themselves 'woke' hated anything that a First Nations tribe or clan did to make their voice heard. Everyone wants to be able to safely ignore the continuing atrocity that is our treatment of aboriginal peoples.

    my sister moved to Yellowknife and is a RN there at the hospital now, she's told me a lot about the various issues the First Nations face there (and a lot of her patients). It sure sounds... like a thing.

    Hardtarget on
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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Do you guys only talk to conservative supporters or something? Like my mom says stupid shit like that but I can't think of a single time that has ever come up with anybody I associate with.

    Nope, I've caught my friends (At least the Albertan ones), who are socially pretty liberal, saying shit like that. That does not fly around me.

    But even in broader terms, the only place I've ever lived where there seemed to be some awareness of the realities facing First Nations is here in Yellowknife. Everywhere else I've lived, everyone, even people who considered themselves 'woke' hated anything that a First Nations tribe or clan did to make their voice heard. Everyone wants to be able to safely ignore the continuing atrocity that is our treatment of aboriginal peoples.

    my sister moved to Yellowknife and is a RN there at the hospital now, she's told me a lot about the various issues the First Nations face there (and a lot of her patients). It sure sounds... like a thing.

    Yeah. I don't really have anything else I can say.

  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

    See, I've heard that, but that's more in the context of living off the dole (with the various class-based implications of that) rather then living the rich life.

    It exists, believe me. I dunno, maybe this attitude is more prevalent in western Canada

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

    See, I've heard that, but that's more in the context of living off the dole (with the various class-based implications of that) rather then living the rich life.

    It exists, believe me. I dunno, maybe this attitude is more prevalent in western Canada

    I get the feeling that this is very regional. What I hear from Montréal and Toronto definitively doesn't match what I hear from western Canada. It's not necessarily better, but the stereotypes seem very different.

    mrondeau on
    shrykeSteelhawkEtiowsa
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

    See, I've heard that, but that's more in the context of living off the dole (with the various class-based implications of that) rather then living the rich life.

    It exists, believe me. I dunno, maybe this attitude is more prevalent in western Canada

    I would not be surprised if it's regional. For the most part people I've met from the like Golden Horseshoe area really had very little opinion on First Nations anything. Strongest would I guess be annoyance when they blocked the rail lines (this isn't the first time that's happened). Montreal area a bit more then that, but still not much. People I knew from Northern Ontario had firm strong opinions on them though.

    shryke on
    mrondeau
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

    See, I've heard that, but that's more in the context of living off the dole (with the various class-based implications of that) rather then living the rich life.

    It exists, believe me. I dunno, maybe this attitude is more prevalent in western Canada
    It’s a very very Alberta thing due to some tribes receiving royalties and how it’s distributed in a lump sum on a members 18th birthday and you suddenly have a very young person with a lot of money and no experience managing finances or life experience to encourage saving for the future.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

    See, I've heard that, but that's more in the context of living off the dole (with the various class-based implications of that) rather then living the rich life.

    It exists, believe me. I dunno, maybe this attitude is more prevalent in western Canada

    It's the default mindset in Nova Scotia, at least once you get out of the nicer parts of Halifax; FN populations are still "the Indians" who get "free stuff" and "extra rights" and all that wharrgarbl.

  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    In this case? The government and industry respects their rights.

    The government doesn't just get to take your land away with no due process. Industry doesn't just get to build whatever they want on your land without your permission. Even if every one of your neighbours says yes, and you say no, their votes doesn't overrule yours when it comes to your property.

    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.

    And thus thousands of people would each be able to veto any project on... what, 22,000 square km of land? That just means nothing can happen there. Ever.

    Just because people are racist doesn't mean you can write off all possible objections as racism. Losing a vote and attacking the concept of voting is pretty ridiculous on its face.

    We have shown you how the Supreme Court of Canada ruled regarding their title claim. We have shown you how the hereditary chiefs have a valid legal claim over stewardship of that land according to Canadian law. You keep insisting that because there was a vote, the law doesn't matter, and we can just go in and remove whoever we want from their land, arrest whoever we want, take whatever we want. Because there was a vote, and that's all that matters to you.

    But that's not the case. And your insistence that none of their legal rights matter, none of those cases matters because one time some people voted is absolutely ridiculous.

    The vote isn't all that matters, but it does matter. That's how you get legitimacy. One side has it and the other isn't interested.

    If the Supreme Court ends up ruling that the hereditary chiefs actually do have the legal right to block the pipeline it'll be a pretty ugly endorsement of feudalism.

    The SC ruling that the body that voted didn't have the authority to vote isn't feudalism. It's basic government stuff. Otherwise you'd have Ford declaring himself Premier because all the Real Canadians voted for him so that totally counts.

  • Descendant XDescendant X Hank Facepunch Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Hardtarget wrote: »

    I know Scheer is an asshole, but even I was surprised that those words came out of his stupid face. What a smug prick.

    This here is what some of us are talking about when we say we know people who think FN sit on their thumbs all day. When he says they have the privilege to protest every day, he’s channeling the members of his base who believe that FN people on reserves are living high on the hog in some sort of socialist paradise that non-FN people pay for. It’s the most obvious dog whistle I’ve ever heard.

    Descendant X on
    Something used to be here. It's gone now.
    AegisSteelhawkCanadianWolverine
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    He's a douchebag, but if you listen carefully, he phrases it as "Those damn white professional protesters!"

  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

    See, I've heard that, but that's more in the context of living off the dole (with the various class-based implications of that) rather then living the rich life.

    It exists, believe me. I dunno, maybe this attitude is more prevalent in western Canada

    It's the default mindset in Nova Scotia, at least once you get out of the nicer parts of Halifax; FN populations are still "the Indians" who get "free stuff" and "extra rights" and all that wharrgarbl.

    That is definitely not my experience here. I'm not going to say I've never heard someone here express a shitty opinion on this kind of thing, but it's defintiely not "the default".

    ArcticLancer
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    edited February 15
    KetBra wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    The reason people do not support the Wetsu'wet'en is because people believe First Nations are all rich and lazy. Racism is at the heart of this. And that's a fight we should never just give up on.
    wow, wtf dude

    I mean, he's not wrong. You get a hundred random groups of Canadians talking about the First Nations and a depressingly large majority of them will be saying shit like that. Outside of places like this forum that kind of mentality is the default mindset, especially if there's any kind of dispute about any kind of rights involved.

    Man, I've heard plenty of people opine about their views on First Nations and I've never heard "rich" come up.

    Really? I've heard loads of people talk about how lucky they are because the government just pays them to do nothing

    It's a depressingly common outlook

    Here's how common and casual the outlook is, a very insightful top ten list presentation / article was developed for it:

    https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/insight-on-10-myths-about-indigenous-peoples

    I highly suggest this thread gives it a full read, trying to quote even just a single section on this topic is going to be a comprehensive wall of text, so here is the table of contents as it were:
    How do we put an end to these myths? By educating ourselves and others with the realities so we and they can counter the myths with facts. Here are some of the most persistent myths:

    Indigenous Peoples get a “free ride”

    Indians have ample reserve lands

    Indians can do what they want with their reserve lands and resources

    Indigenous Peoples living on reserves get free housing

    Indigenous Peoples get a free secondary education

    There’s no connection between Indigenous unemployment and Indigenous health and social problems

    Indigenous Peoples don’t pay taxes in Canada

    Indigenous Peoples are all the same

    Residential schools are ancient history

    The myth of the vanishing Indian

    CanadianWolverine on
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    Descendant X
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