It feels like a real embarrassment of the mtg public that whenever a streamer brings up bans for pioneer someone is still suggesting they should ban cruise or marvel.
Because they are all good but reasonable cards. Marvel might not even be a good deck. Its people who assumed they would be busted refusing to change their mind when they see it get played.
yeah i confirmation bias feel like I've noticed a giant uptick in the magic community ever since the idea that standard bans were possible became a thing around SOI/KLD, maybe even back to the Twin ban... it's just every time some deck is good people start being reactionaries crying for them to be banned. Like... cards are allowed to be good. Decks are allowed to be good.
I played in that NRG 5k yesterday and my personal takeaway was that so far the format seems dope, with a slight preference to people playing basically whatever standard deck they liked in the past 5 years maybe with a few upgrades. I played a card in my deck that is banned in modern, legacy, and restricted in vintage and you know how it felt in the pioneer format? It was ok.
so far the only thing that feels remotely possible to curtail is the devotion strategies picking up free leyline pips, but I'm and many of the people i talked to at the event felt like we need to play with things for more than the 2 weeks the formats been live to figure things out and as long as this meta continues to evolve naturally, I hope they let the players guide that growth before they start cutting things out just because they were too powerful in completely different formats.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
me, some time ago: "huh, I wonder why caleb has so many mods"
me, today, after asking a rules question and having three different mods mock me for not knowing it: "ah I see"
me, some time ago: "huh, I wonder why caleb has so many mods"
me, today, after asking a rules question and having three different mods mock me for not knowing it: "ah I see"
Lol some of us are less trolly. Want to PM me the info and I can bring it up with the rest?
me, some time ago: "huh, I wonder why caleb has so many mods"
me, today, after asking a rules question and having three different mods mock me for not knowing it: "ah I see"
p weird since I think Caleb is one of the nicest mfers in MTG streaming.
me, some time ago: "huh, I wonder why caleb has so many mods"
me, today, after asking a rules question and having three different mods mock me for not knowing it: "ah I see"
p weird since I think Caleb is one of the nicest mfers in MTG streaming.
It wasn't anything over the top, I was just salty at 2am :P
That said, Caleb does very incisively go after people who ask dumb questions moreso than most streamers do. Which is usually fair, but can still come off as a bit aggro.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
Because they are all good but reasonable cards. Marvel might not even be a good deck. Its people who assumed they would be busted refusing to change their mind when they see it get played.
cruise is not a reasonable card
it's not as busted in a format without fetches, but it's still a draw 3
Because they are all good but reasonable cards. Marvel might not even be a good deck. Its people who assumed they would be busted refusing to change their mind when they see it get played.
cruise is not a reasonable card
it's not as busted in a format without fetches, but it's still a draw 3
That does not make it inherently too good. Even in a format like standard which did have fetches it was a reasonable card that was never in danger of banning. In this format it may be even more benign. It requires extremely limited deckbuilding to make any good use out of it and even in those decks its only very good.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Pioneer is full of unreasonable cards and that's fine, because it's a powerful format.
Wow sticking with banning Felidar over the planeswalker huh? I can't imagine why they would do so now that the pack-buying incentive is gone.
Anyway I pretty much disagree with a lot of this. Even if it needed doing eventually it doesn't need to be done now and I think that the argument re: Felidar is straight up bad. Banning cards that require that you play interaction is how you get 20 goldfish decks like in a lot of recent modern. Gonna try to keep an open mind and stay positive but this has me worried.
They banned Felidar Guardian because it's a better card than Saheeli Rai.
Sure but not in any way that is dangerous, right? Saheeli will now receive zero play and Felidar could have receive some play in a flicker deck and been completely safe.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
They banned Felidar Guardian because it's a better card than Saheeli Rai.
Sure but not in any way that is dangerous, right? Saheeli will now receive zero play and Felidar could have receive some play in a flicker deck and been completely safe.
Felidar Guardian is a... creature. You think that banning it is going to push creature removal out of the format?
Their specific argument was
"The Felidar Guardian/Saheeli Rai combination threatens metagame diversity by requiring decks to present specific types of early interaction while developing their own strategy or else immediately lose the game. Rather than allow this combination to warp deck building and the metagame around it, we're choosing to ban a card. Of the two options, Felidar Guardian is the most likely to break again with existing or future cards."
This was the exact argument they made about Twin and while that ban arguably was good for modern for awhile the push to eliminate decks that required other decks to interact resulted in a bunch of decks that didn't. I fear that will happen again. Powerful decks with solid plans that don't bother to try to play against their opponent's gameplay. So yeah I guess I am.
Felidar would not have received any play in a flicker deck. It is unplayable unless you are abusing it to go infinite. There is no harm to the format to ban a card that only exists to go infinite.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
the twin ban was the best thing that ever happened to modern, and the goldfishing that resulted with the past year was largely the result of shitty graveyard matters decks
banning gaak and bridge has turned modern into a much more healthy format again
They banned Felidar Guardian because it's a better card than Saheeli Rai.
Sure but not in any way that is dangerous, right? Saheeli will now receive zero play and Felidar could have receive some play in a flicker deck and been completely safe.
the point was to kill copycat
Yes, obviously? So the question is why kill a fun playable creature over a garbage planeswalker that will do literally nothing. Either option kills Copycat. In standard the theory was that WotC didn't want to ban the mythic rare planeswalker if they could help it but nobody is cracking those packs anymore. They could ban either and they picked Felidar? I mean ok neither really matters all that much but the Cat could have been a little fun.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
They banned Felidar Guardian because it's a better card than Saheeli Rai.
Sure but not in any way that is dangerous, right? Saheeli will now receive zero play and Felidar could have receive some play in a flicker deck and been completely safe.
the point was to kill copycat
Yes, obviously? So the question is why kill a fun playable creature over a garbage planeswalker that will do literally nothing. Either option kills Copycat. In standard the theory was that WotC didn't want to ban the mythic rare planeswalker if they could help it but nobody is cracking those packs anymore. They could ban either and they picked Felidar? I mean ok neither really matters all that much but the Cat could have been a little fun.
interacting with walkers is more difficult than creatures, and walkers present greater options in the future
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
They're saying it's a lot more likely they print a playable Saheeli effect than a playable Felidar Guardian effect.
And hey while I’m spewing hot takes modern is a bad format and has been for a very long time. People do nothing but complain about it. The best deck is aconstantly obvious and almost always a painful slog. Most of the decks in the format are. Urza, Tron, and deathshadow are all painful to play against.
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And then when all the Titans had had a turn Wurm Coil Engine got a go too.
Because they are all good but reasonable cards. Marvel might not even be a good deck. Its people who assumed they would be busted refusing to change their mind when they see it get played.
I played in that NRG 5k yesterday and my personal takeaway was that so far the format seems dope, with a slight preference to people playing basically whatever standard deck they liked in the past 5 years maybe with a few upgrades. I played a card in my deck that is banned in modern, legacy, and restricted in vintage and you know how it felt in the pioneer format? It was ok.
so far the only thing that feels remotely possible to curtail is the devotion strategies picking up free leyline pips, but I'm and many of the people i talked to at the event felt like we need to play with things for more than the 2 weeks the formats been live to figure things out and as long as this meta continues to evolve naturally, I hope they let the players guide that growth before they start cutting things out just because they were too powerful in completely different formats.
Yes, that's a Black Lotus elk
me, today, after asking a rules question and having three different mods mock me for not knowing it: "ah I see"
In Pioneer, someone took that to its logical(?) conclusion:
Lol some of us are less trolly. Want to PM me the info and I can bring it up with the rest?
Ominous. I really hope they don’t fuck this up.
You could follow Forsythe?
p weird since I think Caleb is one of the nicest mfers in MTG streaming.
...
Yes...
...
That's a reasonable solution for me
It wasn't anything over the top, I was just salty at 2am :P
That said, Caleb does very incisively go after people who ask dumb questions moreso than most streamers do. Which is usually fair, but can still come off as a bit aggro.
cruise is not a reasonable card
it's not as busted in a format without fetches, but it's still a draw 3
That does not make it inherently too good. Even in a format like standard which did have fetches it was a reasonable card that was never in danger of banning. In this format it may be even more benign. It requires extremely limited deckbuilding to make any good use out of it and even in those decks its only very good.
Felidar Guardian (duh)
Leyline of Abundance (green devotion was dumb, apparently)
Oath of Nissa (specifically calling out 3-mana PWs)
Anyway I pretty much disagree with a lot of this. Even if it needed doing eventually it doesn't need to be done now and I think that the argument re: Felidar is straight up bad. Banning cards that require that you play interaction is how you get 20 goldfish decks like in a lot of recent modern. Gonna try to keep an open mind and stay positive but this has me worried.
Sure but not in any way that is dangerous, right? Saheeli will now receive zero play and Felidar could have receive some play in a flicker deck and been completely safe.
the point was to kill copycat
Their specific argument was
"The Felidar Guardian/Saheeli Rai combination threatens metagame diversity by requiring decks to present specific types of early interaction while developing their own strategy or else immediately lose the game. Rather than allow this combination to warp deck building and the metagame around it, we're choosing to ban a card. Of the two options, Felidar Guardian is the most likely to break again with existing or future cards."
This was the exact argument they made about Twin and while that ban arguably was good for modern for awhile the push to eliminate decks that required other decks to interact resulted in a bunch of decks that didn't. I fear that will happen again. Powerful decks with solid plans that don't bother to try to play against their opponent's gameplay. So yeah I guess I am.
banning gaak and bridge has turned modern into a much more healthy format again
Yes, obviously? So the question is why kill a fun playable creature over a garbage planeswalker that will do literally nothing. Either option kills Copycat. In standard the theory was that WotC didn't want to ban the mythic rare planeswalker if they could help it but nobody is cracking those packs anymore. They could ban either and they picked Felidar? I mean ok neither really matters all that much but the Cat could have been a little fun.
interacting with walkers is more difficult than creatures, and walkers present greater options in the future
Banning Felidar Guardian means never printing a creature that can flicker target permanent on ETB again.
The former seems like a much larger loss of design space than the latter, so they banned the cat.