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[MTG] Standard Elk menace defeated. Elks still prevalent in other environments.

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Posts

  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    edited November 30
    I'm not sure I can think of something sadder than using the community run Brawl site for fun matches and deciding to bring Historic decks into the Standard queue to attempt to pubstomp.

    milski on
    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    I played the pioneer seat in a 5k store series team tournament today and god damn I love this format so far. I was playing the ensoul deck and it turns out attacking for 5 is just really good almost all the time and post board the deck just picks apart anyone trying to be the removal deck. The only bad match I played all day was against technically the phoenix deck but specifically and exclusively the card thing in the ice.

    Unfortunately team tournaments are brutal and our legacy seat hit the unfortunate end of their deck's fail rate. But in the end, not a bad last big tournament for the year over here.

    now to spike local weekly pioneer with darksteel citabois

    I Do Design | I PSN- Subtle_Ties | 3DS: 3840-5210-2008 (Subtle)
  • WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    Stupid Ravnican lore question: Did they ever describe in the fiction how the Orzhov "make"/"summon" spirits out of the recently dead? I know how they make thrulls (black gunk + corpse), but I don't recall how they do spirits. I wonder if the process for the Ghost Council is the same as that for indentured folk.

  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    you stick a straw in em and suck all the ectoplasm out

    BahamutZERO.gif
    21stCenturyStyrofoam Sammich
  • 21stCentury21stCentury A lovely pixel artist and gamecrafter [They/Them]Registered User regular
    Stupid Ravnican lore question: Did they ever describe in the fiction how the Orzhov "make"/"summon" spirits out of the recently dead? I know how they make thrulls (black gunk + corpse), but I don't recall how they do spirits. I wonder if the process for the Ghost Council is the same as that for indentured folk.

    im gonna guess a spell?

  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    maybe they're just naturally occurring on ravnica, thus the need of a guild to regulate the damn things

    BahamutZERO.gif
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    A wizard does it

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    I always figured they never made the spirits, those are just people that managed to die without becoming a thrull thinking they'd gotten out of the contract, but nope, we'll just enslave your ghost instead til you are paid up

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
    ArmorocVyolynce
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited December 2
    I think that they are naturally occurring on Ravnica because souls come from the Blind Eternities, and return there on death. But Ravnica was cut off from the Blind Eternities as a Plane, you couldn't leave, so the souls of the dead just built up.

    Solar on
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Realtor Santa ClaritaRegistered User regular
    IIRC some of them are caused by haunting curses they put on debtors that are only removed once their debt is paid, and if they die before that they serve Orzhov in perpetuity.

    WearingglassesGreen
  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    edited December 2
    The MTG Finance discussion is something I consider about the nature of these games. Would Magic do worse without booster packs and if it was, instead, just "hey, pay us $100 for a complete playset of cardboard from this set" like the LCG model? Is there something inherently fun or magical to cracking open booster packs that the loss of which would kill the game?

    My guess is yes, the game would become less lucrative, so Wizards would put less effort into it, so people would care less, and the cycle would continue, but not because of some inherent "boosters are fun!" People pay flat rates for content all the time and enjoy doing it, whether that's Netflix or a WoW subscription.

    On the other hand, would the game be better off and sell better because of the lowered barrier to entry? For any given format except Pauper or Pioneer the answer to "would I pay to get cards for this is?" is a resounding NO. Like can even 1% of Magic players afford a modern deck? I bet if you looked at the average total collection value (or maybe median is a better statistic) it's less than a tier 1 modern deck. Wouldn't those players benefit if their Scalding Tarns became worthless and instead modern attendance and therefore prize support would double?

    The only real, definite downside I could see to this is drafting or sealed formats would be gone, but I bet you could find a way to do it. Hell, you could still offer booster packs specifically for draft and sweeten the pot with alt arts or foils. Like the collector boosters but their cost brought back down to earth.

    ChaosHat on
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Realtor Santa ClaritaRegistered User regular
    For the health of the game as a game? Yes, absolutely.

    For the health of the first C in CCG? No way.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    A lot people would never buy a box/$100 worth of cards no matter how many cards, too. Booster here and there is a lot easier to swallow.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    A lot people would never buy a box/$100 worth of cards no matter how many cards, too. Booster here and there is a lot easier to swallow.

    You would have to split it up somehow or reduce the cost but I think you could attain a $100-150 cost for the whole set, especially if you cut down the number of cards in the set which should be doable since you don't have to have the cards that are only playable in draft. You could have 80 card sets based around a theme, or just release them as centered shards/wedges. Like in Eldraine you could maybe cut them into "Knights of Eldraine" in Mardu colors, and then a Temur non Humans, Sultai food, etc. Then you just get the colors or themes that interest you if you're more budget minded.

    21stCentury
  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    I think mtg would absolutely be a worse experience without boosters

    Definitely more consumer friendly and possibly more tightly designed but also I'd find it way less fun cause I like opening boosters

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  • NeveronNeveron SwedenRegistered User regular
    Yeah, the problem with boosters is that you get those g o o d c h e m i c a l s when you open them. It's enjoyable and addictive and a great way for Wizards to get a whole bunch of money. Gotta pull those slots.


    Removing boosters and replacing them with a LCG model would also require a huge design overhaul, of course, but that would just be the cost of doing business. Rarities are useless, draft chaff even moreso, Limited as a format vanishes completely...

    ssEXN.png
    discrider
  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    edited December 2
    Neveron wrote: »
    Yeah, the problem with boosters is that you get those g o o d c h e m i c a l s when you open them. It's enjoyable and addictive and a great way for Wizards to get a whole bunch of money. Gotta pull those slots.


    Removing boosters and replacing them with a LCG model would also require a huge design overhaul, of course, but that would just be the cost of doing business. Rarities are useless, draft chaff even moreso, Limited as a format vanishes completely...

    See, this is what makes me wonder if boosters/collectability is actually the secret sauce. If you have boosters then you need expensive lands and other chase cards because they move boosters and if there are chase cards there will be a secondary market. I think you could maybe try to push collector boosters full of foils and promos to try to have your cake and eat it too, and then make those packs your draft packs.

    On the other hand, there are lots and lots of tabletop hobbies that do well without boosters, mostly miniatures games. I know that Warhammer or X-Wing miniatures don't have the same following or cultural impact but the costs of those games are pretty high as well. There are also plenty of randomized booster games that have died in the wake of Magic. I just wonder if the reason is the social media problem: you need a critical mass of people to jump in to make it worth getting into. As someone mentioned above, online games have skirted this nicely. It even seems that Netrunner only "failed" due to external licensing issues and it still manages a small, dedicated community.

    It will be interesting to see how Legends of Runeterra does. It's monetization scheme seems less horrible, with an actual cap on how much you can spend and what seems to be a much less random, wild card focused card acquisition model.

    ChaosHat on
  • BreakfastPMBreakfastPM Registered User regular
    edited December 2
    On the other hand, I had an experience this weekend that has probably pushed me out of ever buying another booster. Singles for me from now on.

    I bought some 3 pack blisters of Modern Horizons to use to play with friends and guess what I found out too late? Someone had opened the blister, slit open the top of the card packs, removed the rares, and then folded the tops over and pretty expertly resealed the blisters. I'm going back to the store today to inform them about it. I doubt I'll get any compensation but if I can prevent someone else from getting duped that'll be good enough. Pretty pissed though and pretty confident that I'm done with anything but singles. More-so because it was a more premium product.

    *Edit*
    This was not an LGS. It was a box store. So I believe that the product tampering probably happened higher up in the chain from whatever distributor. We'll see this afternoon if they know anything.

    BreakfastPM on
  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    I mean nobody should buy boosters as is unless they're planning to draft. It is a losing proposition.

    21stCentury
  • turtleantturtleant Gunpla Dad is the best.Registered User regular
    On the other hand, I had an experience this weekend that has probably pushed me out of ever buying another booster. Singles for me from now on.

    I bought some 3 pack blisters of Modern Horizons to use to play with friends and guess what I found out too late? Someone had opened the blister, slit open the top of the card packs, removed the rares, and then folded the tops over and pretty expertly resealed the blisters. I'm going back to the store today to inform them about it. I doubt I'll get any compensation but if I can prevent someone else from getting duped that'll be good enough. Pretty pissed though and pretty confident that I'm done with anything but singles. More-so because it was a more premium product.

    *Edit*
    This was not an LGS. It was a box store. So I believe that the product tampering probably happened higher up in the chain from whatever distributor. We'll see this afternoon if they know anything.

    That totally could have happened at store.

    Back when whatever Commander thing that had True-Name Nemesis in it was being released people were buying it from like, Wal-Mart, removing True-Name, and resealing and returning the commander box.

    Also, I cant dig it up now, but i remember seeing a video about how any repackaged boosters in a big box store are a real bad deal. Like those 5 boosters from different sets bundles. Something about them often being resealed packs with garbage rares.

    X22wmuF.jpg
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Games Workshop and WotC have very similar looking Annual Revenue but very different products and very different hobby fanbases.

  • SokpuppetSokpuppet You only yoyo once Registered User regular
    I've been playing games like this since about '95. In that time I've been in to maybe a dozen non-Magic CCG type games starting with (*sigh*) Galactic Empires. Some of them enjoyed a degree of success; DBZ and Android: Netunner being standouts.

    In my experience, there are four differences between a game that is going to be dead in a few years and one that is going to stick. In no particular order,

    1. An IP that people care about. E.g. Pokemon, Hearthstone, Dragon Ball, Thrones, etc

    2. A healthy, robust, and *well supported* competitive scene.

    3. A healthy, robust, and diverse secondary market - or a reasonable alternative like dusting. Players need some way to get the cards they want without buying them in packs. Businesses need some incentive to support the game.

    4. Excellent support for limited play.


    I've played a variety of LCGs over the years, and I don't think they are where we want to be. The LCG model looks good on paper, but in practice isn't all that great. Over and over we see the publisher gradually raise the barrier to entry, hit diminishing returns, and then reboot from scratch.

  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    if anyone is considering buying that playmat bundle but doesn't want all of them I'm interested in paying just to get the serum visions mat and we could coordinate efforts?

    I Do Design | I PSN- Subtle_Ties | 3DS: 3840-5210-2008 (Subtle)
  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    Sokpuppet wrote: »
    I've been playing games like this since about '95. In that time I've been in to maybe a dozen non-Magic CCG type games starting with (*sigh*) Galactic Empires. Some of them enjoyed a degree of success; DBZ and Android: Netunner being standouts.

    In my experience, there are four differences between a game that is going to be dead in a few years and one that is going to stick. In no particular order,

    1. An IP that people care about. E.g. Pokemon, Hearthstone, Dragon Ball, Thrones, etc

    2. A healthy, robust, and *well supported* competitive scene.

    3. A healthy, robust, and diverse secondary market - or a reasonable alternative like dusting. Players need some way to get the cards they want without buying them in packs. Businesses need some incentive to support the game.

    4. Excellent support for limited play.


    I've played a variety of LCGs over the years, and I don't think they are where we want to be. The LCG model looks good on paper, but in practice isn't all that great. Over and over we see the publisher gradually raise the barrier to entry, hit diminishing returns, and then reboot from scratch.

    Arkham doesn't show any signs of stopping, and LotR hasn't been rebooted or killed off despite being maybe the oldest one? It's certainly the oldest one still going on. It's also perfectly reasonable that Netrunner would be humming along without a reboot or being killed if it weren't for the rights issues.

    I think the issue with LCGs is that it's very hard to get people to commit to a new game in paper because of all the other corpses of great games littering the landscape. Do I really want to spend all this money on a card game that will probably not be around in a couple years, regardless of how good it might be? Many of these games are also lifestyle games. There isn't much time in someone's life for more than a couple of these.

    I have sat in a FLGS with beginner Netrunner decks and evangelized the game, and even though many of them liked it, I got basically nobody to buy in. If everyone who had liked it had bought in, we could have had a scene. It's a collective action problem. Especially when they can just bring their magic deck and get games no problem and there are already tournaments.

  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    Arkham literally announced today that the dog based april fools joke Barkham horror is getting a real standalone scenario. If this was a magic Un-thing I'd ignore it. but because it's a fun $15 self contained pack that's actually usable I'm just like "yeah ok i'll buy it"

    I Do Design | I PSN- Subtle_Ties | 3DS: 3840-5210-2008 (Subtle)
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i did meet some of the most insufferable people but, they also met meRegistered User regular
    edited December 2
    I think one of the primary issues with trying to examine and debate business models of LCG vs CCG is that we're really debating, like, a small handful of companies. I can only name two LCGs off the top of my head that are made by companies other than FFG. So are we talking about issues with LCGs and CCGs, or are we discussing issues with FFG and WotC?

    I needed a gnome to post. on
    UUgbyO3.png
    Sokpuppet
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I don't think you can compare Arkham/LotR to Magic. Co-op games have completely different communal expectations/requirements.

    Netrunner is a better example and it's a tragedy that lazy Hasbro greed killed it off, but FFG hasn't been able to reproduce that success.

  • SokpuppetSokpuppet You only yoyo once Registered User regular
    edited December 2
    If memory serves, they killed their previous mythos LCG and then launched Arkham LCG a couple of years ago.

    Edit: Yahh. Call of Cthulhu, launched 2008 around the same time as Thrones 1e.

    Sokpuppet on
  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    Sokpuppet wrote: »
    If memory serves, they killed their previous mythos LCG and then launched Arkham LCG a couple of years ago.

    Edit: Yahh. Call of Cthulhu, launched 2008 around the same time as Thrones 1e.

    That's an entirely different game. Call was competitive and arkham is cooperative. The theming is the same and they're both card games but arkham didn't cannibalize call any more than X-Wing Minis cannibalizes any other Star Wars game. Or the new LotR board game cannibalizes the LCG.
    admanb wrote: »
    I don't think you can compare Arkham/LotR to Magic. Co-op games have completely different communal expectations/requirements.

    Netrunner is a better example and it's a tragedy that lazy Hasbro greed killed it off, but FFG hasn't been able to reproduce that success.

    I actually do think it's comparable. Arkham has succeeded for me because I don't need anyone else to invest in it on two levels. 1) I can furnish my opponent's deck and 2) I don't need anyone else to play. Their success shows that if you can solve the "I need realistically 10 people at my flgs to also buy in and play" you can succeed. Arkham succeeds by saying "you don't need em anyways" and online card games succeed by saying "well we'll match you against anyone in the world so even a small pool of players is enough."

    Would Overwatch or any number of competitive games have succeeded if it depended on LAN play only? We'd probably be playing Quake and DotA allstars because they were first.

  • jgeisjgeis Registered User regular
    edited December 2
    So Wizards hand-delivered some Secret Lair bundles to pro players in Seattle and they seem to include an previously unannounced stained-glass planeswalker promo card. There's still confusion over whether they're in EVERY box or if this was "give pro players something cool to generate hype", but I believe it's the former:



    Edit: nevermind, they clarified that EVERY pack in this round of drops will have a planeswalker promo, not necessarily the ones pictured above.

    jgeis on
    [
  • SokpuppetSokpuppet You only yoyo once Registered User regular
    Weird.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I am shocked by this development.

    Twitch Channel
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    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
    http://www.ccfa.org/
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    copter is such a stupid fucking card

    The Escape GoatTynnan
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    copter is such a stupid fucking card

    And it got better with this most recent set.

    Twitch Channel
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    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
    http://www.ccfa.org/
  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat of course Registered User regular
    edited December 2
    welp, missed my chance to sell my copter once again
    see y'all next format

    The Escape Goat on
    3clipse wrote: »
    God is dead and life has no purpose.
  • Blackbeard7Blackbeard7 Registered User regular
    im glad my auction for my once upon a times ended last night

    ALZff8o.png
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    im glad my auction for my once upon a times ended last night

    rip that other person

    Blackbeard7Munkus BeaverVyolynceThe Escape GoatBahamutZEROArmorocSkeithTynnanSolarFearghaillGreen
  • Blackbeard7Blackbeard7 Registered User regular
    they paid for extended arts too

    gotem

    ALZff8o.png
    ArmorocTynnan
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    I mean, ouat will still absolutely be played in every format it's legal because it's a fucking nonsense card

    but yeah

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