Zack and Miri Make [movies]

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Gerwig didn't get a best director nom? Ugh.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    I don’t know why I find it so funny that if Joker wins anything it will be the fourth time a film with The Joker in it has won an Oscar.

    And if it takes Best Actor it will be the second time someone has won an acting Oscar for playing The Joker.

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Nothing in my mind cements the fact that Joker is not a comic book movie more than its numerous Oscar nominations. I stand by my assessment that you could've made the movie about a nobody character and it still would've been the exact same film with the IP having no bearing.

    It would blow my mind that such a derivative film is getting so much recognition if it weren't the Academy doing the recognizing. Oscar bait movies are going to continue to exist as long as they keep getting rewarded for it.
    I don't particularly agree with the Oscar bait point, but I think there's another aspect here: if Joker *wasn't* a DC movie, I don't think it would get nearly as much attention. It's exactly this aspect of "Look at us - we're doing a comic book movie, but it's, like, deep and speaks the truth about society and stuff!" that makes it stand out, in combination with Phoenix' performance, whether it earns the connection or not.

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  • CoinageCoinage The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter Registered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    Sorry I plan to use the same dark magic I employed to rewrite reality and make Moonlight win best picture to ensure Joker gets as many Oscars as possible

    Can you imagine what the internet will look like after it wins best picture and best director

    Can you imagine the pained look on Marty Scorsese’s face when they cut to him after Todd Phillips thanks him on stage

    It will be beautiful
    This desire for chaos and destruction... chilling, you're like a real life Venom

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  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    Nothing in my mind cements the fact that Joker is not a comic book movie more than its numerous Oscar nominations. I stand by my assessment that you could've made the movie about a nobody character and it still would've been the exact same film with the IP having no bearing.

    It would blow my mind that such a derivative film is getting so much recognition if it weren't the Academy doing the recognizing. Oscar bait movies are going to continue to exist as long as they keep getting rewarded for it.
    I don't particularly agree with the Oscar bait point, but I think there's another aspect here: if Joker *wasn't* a DC movie, I don't think it would get nearly as much attention. It's exactly this aspect of "Look at us - we're doing a comic book movie, but it's, like, deep and speaks the truth about society and stuff!" that makes it stand out, in combination with Phoenix' performance, whether it earns the connection or not.
    I mean I think it's generally true that if you stripped the franchise from a franchise film it would get less attention. Sam Raimi made well-reviewed Spider-Man films and a well-reviewed film about a hero he made up named Darkman. Guess which of the two made boatloads of money and which one didn't

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    I don't think it's the franchise in this respect. It's more the "Look, we're doing a genre that's generally not associated with depth or sophistication *coughthemeparkscough*, but we're doing so in an Adult, Mature, Sophisticated way. Eh, Marty?"

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  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    wandering wrote: »
    Thirith wrote: »
    Nothing in my mind cements the fact that Joker is not a comic book movie more than its numerous Oscar nominations. I stand by my assessment that you could've made the movie about a nobody character and it still would've been the exact same film with the IP having no bearing.

    It would blow my mind that such a derivative film is getting so much recognition if it weren't the Academy doing the recognizing. Oscar bait movies are going to continue to exist as long as they keep getting rewarded for it.
    I don't particularly agree with the Oscar bait point, but I think there's another aspect here: if Joker *wasn't* a DC movie, I don't think it would get nearly as much attention. It's exactly this aspect of "Look at us - we're doing a comic book movie, but it's, like, deep and speaks the truth about society and stuff!" that makes it stand out, in combination with Phoenix' performance, whether it earns the connection or not.
    I mean I think it's generally true that if you stripped the franchise from a franchise film it would get less attention. Sam Raimi made well-reviewed Spider-Man films and a well-reviewed film about a hero he made up named Darkman. Guess which of the two made boatloads of money and which one didn't

    Darkman was fucking bananas. I have no idea if it holds up but I liked it back in the day.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    A good example of a cool but in a totally lame generic scifi action way is Lockout

    Also maybe that Vin Diesel movie with the psychic lady?

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited January 14
    Jazz wrote: »
    Darkman was fucking bananas. I have no idea if it holds up but I liked it back in the day.
    Like many other early Raimi films, it's not necessarily accomplished, but it's got a certain zany, inventive quality that you don't really find elsewhere. It's trashy, but it's fun - and it's got a surprise early performance by Frances McDormand.

    Thirith on
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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    I really hated Joker. It's like Falling Down but featuring Simple Jack. The character doesn't have anything to say, other than "I hurt." Join the fucking club, Chuckles.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    Nothing in my mind cements the fact that Joker is not a comic book movie more than its numerous Oscar nominations. I stand by my assessment that you could've made the movie about a nobody character and it still would've been the exact same film with the IP having no bearing.

    It would blow my mind that such a derivative film is getting so much recognition if it weren't the Academy doing the recognizing. Oscar bait movies are going to continue to exist as long as they keep getting rewarded for it.
    I don't particularly agree with the Oscar bait point, but I think there's another aspect here: if Joker *wasn't* a DC movie, I don't think it would get nearly as much attention. It's exactly this aspect of "Look at us - we're doing a comic book movie, but it's, like, deep and speaks the truth about society and stuff!" that makes it stand out, in combination with Phoenix' performance, whether it earns the connection or not.

    I don't particularly care about things being "Oscar bait" since after watching DiCaprio try really hard to stop being Leonardo NoOscaro, for years, everything else doesn't even register.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Joker is a movie that did a pretty good imitation of a dozen other better movies

    And the only reason it got any attention was it’s title. It may not be a comic book movie per say but it’s IP is what put it on the map

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Joker is a movie that did a pretty good imitation of a dozen other better movies

    And the only reason it got any attention was it’s title.
    Joaquin Phoenix' performance would *always* have got the film some attention, at least.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Gerwig didn't get a best director nom? Ugh.

    I haven’t seen Little Women so I can’t comment on how deserving it is or isn’t. But I can say that Director is probably the one category that seems like the biggest mess to me. Quentin and Marty take up 40% of the space with their courtesy noms, even though both movies were overlong messes IMO (I did enjoy Hollywood, but still). Then Joker gonna Joker. I don’t know that I’d bump 1917 or Parasite for Little Women, given that there were only two spots actually up for contention.

    And of course Hollywood is gonna win, because a movie about making movies is always a safe bet.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    Gerwig didn't get a best director nom? Ugh.

    I haven’t seen Little Women so I can’t comment on how deserving it is or isn’t. But I can say that Director is probably the one category that seems like the biggest mess to me. Quentin and Marty take up 40% of the space with their courtesy noms, even though both movies were overlong messes IMO (I did enjoy Hollywood, but still). Then Joker gonna Joker. I don’t know that I’d bump 1917 or Parasite for Little Women, given that there were only two spots actually up for contention.

    And of course Hollywood is gonna win, because a movie about making movies is always a safe bet.
    I didn't see Parasite, was it good?

    1917 was pretty good.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    Parasite is in-fucking-credible.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    Jazz wrote: »
    Darkman was fucking bananas. I have no idea if it holds up but I liked it back in the day.
    Like many other early Raimi films, it's not necessarily accomplished, but it's got a certain zany, inventive quality that you don't really find elsewhere. It's trashy, but it's fun - and it's got a surprise early performance by Frances McDormand.

    It did have scene that stuck with me for decades; It has one of the bad guys trying to make a drug deal with a rival, only to get rudely rejected. He and his crew then attack and wipe out the opposing gang leaving only the rival alive. The bad guy takes his cigar cutter(foreshadowed earlier), and puts his rival thumb into it and snips it off. saying things like "One; You really should have considered my offer and Two;Politeness never hurts. The scene cuts away with him threading the cigar cutter on his third finger and goes "Three; I have seven more points to make"!

    That was pure comic book narm and no comic book movie besides Ledger's Joker has ever matched that simple moment of menace.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    A good example of a cool but in a totally lame generic scifi action way is Lockout

    Also maybe that Vin Diesel movie with the psychic lady?

    Lockout feels like a Snake Plisken movie that got ported to Guy Pearce and he's great. So many one liners.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • AtomikaAtomika The Trepidatious Adventures of Gerardo the Wizard Registered User regular
    Lockout is Escape from Space. That’s it. That’s the entire pitch.

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    Lockout is Escape from Space. That’s it. That’s the entire pitch.

    mind you, that's a fucking good pitch.

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  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    What was that one movie with Denzel and Mark Walburg?
    2 Guns?
    i think?

    I remember watching it and thinking "hot damn this movie is way more fun that it should be"

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  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Went ahead and bought Brotherhood of the Wolf. From the impressions here it seems stupid not to give it a watch. Is it a good group movie?

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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Joker is very Trumpian in the way it sort of correctly diagnoses some problems, albeit in a vague way that excludes minorities and is actually pretty slanted, and then the solutions are insane

    “I’m sorry Mr Proto-Joker, social services have had their budgets slashed so we can no longer try and help you”
    “Ugh! Don’t you, a black woman, care about me at all?”
    “Actually these budget reductions are the result of Republicans using the specter of black women getting away with something to scare white people into voting for tax cuts, starving the government at every level and preventing me from giving you the help that you need because I too am a poorly paid, under-appreciated cog in the capitalist machine which works to separate us emotionally from one another. Of course I do empathize with you and I hope—“
    “Bitch”
    “Okay well that kind of language doesn’t seem necess—“
    “I’m gonna put on clown makeup and kill everyone who made fun of me!”

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    urahonky wrote: »
    Went ahead and bought Brotherhood of the Wolf. From the impressions here it seems stupid not to give it a watch. Is it a good group movie?

    It's a huge amount of fun. I went in completely cold and ended up chortling with utter delight.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    What was that one movie with Denzel and Mark Walburg?
    2 Guns?
    i think?

    I remember watching it and thinking "hot damn this movie is way more fun that it should be"

    Yeah 2 guns is decent if you can stand Mark Wahlberg. Denzel is so charismatic he basically charms the movie the whole time.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    Doomsday was excellent fun action too.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    And it's a super fun movie!

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Joker is very Trumpian in the way it sort of correctly diagnoses some problems, albeit in a vague way that excludes minorities and is actually pretty slanted, and then the solutions are insane

    “I’m sorry Mr Proto-Joker, social services have had their budgets slashed so we can no longer try and help you”
    “Ugh! Don’t you, a black woman, care about me at all?”
    “Actually these budget reductions are the result of Republicans using the specter of black women getting away with something to scare white people into voting for tax cuts, starving the government at every level and preventing me from giving you the help that you need because I too am a poorly paid, under-appreciated cog in the capitalist machine which works to separate us emotionally from one another. Of course I do empathize with you and I hope—“
    “Bitch”
    “Okay well that kind of language doesn’t seem necess—“
    “I’m gonna put on clown makeup and kill everyone who made fun of me!”

    I don't remember the scene playing out that way.

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  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    Went ahead and bought Brotherhood of the Wolf. From the impressions here it seems stupid not to give it a watch. Is it a good group movie?

    Does anyone else in the group have a thing for gratuitous Monica Bellucci nudity? (Trick question, everyone has a thing for gratuitous Monica Bellucci everything)

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  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    edited January 14
    urahonky wrote: »
    Went ahead and bought Brotherhood of the Wolf. From the impressions here it seems stupid not to give it a watch. Is it a good group movie?

    Depends on the open mindedness of the group. If you think most would be down with an Iroquois that knows karate, pre-French Revolution political intrigue, some fun effects and atmosphere, and Monica Bellucci as a courtesan, a good time will be had by all.

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited January 14
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Joker is very Trumpian in the way it sort of correctly diagnoses some problems, albeit in a vague way that excludes minorities and is actually pretty slanted, and then the solutions are insane

    “I’m sorry Mr Proto-Joker, social services have had their budgets slashed so we can no longer try and help you”
    “Ugh! Don’t you, a black woman, care about me at all?”
    “Actually these budget reductions are the result of Republicans using the specter of black women getting away with something to scare white people into voting for tax cuts, starving the government at every level and preventing me from giving you the help that you need because I too am a poorly paid, under-appreciated cog in the capitalist machine which works to separate us emotionally from one another. Of course I do empathize with you and I hope—“
    “Bitch”
    “Okay well that kind of language doesn’t seem necess—“
    “I’m gonna put on clown makeup and kill everyone who made fun of me!”
    If the film had been more self-aware (there were glimpses of this, but nothing sustained or coherent), it could've been so much more interesting. That's also what makes the film's obvious veneration of Taxi Driver and similar classics so frustrating: they had that nuance and self-awareness. We can feel some empathy for Travis Bickle without going, "Yeah, the world is really shitty, obviously you'd go and shoot up a brothel." In Joker, we're not exactly meant to cheer for him, but neither does the film go beyond "... and this is how he broke bad. Kinda understandable, isn't it?"

    Thirith on
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  • CoinageCoinage The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Joker is very Trumpian in the way it sort of correctly diagnoses some problems, albeit in a vague way that excludes minorities and is actually pretty slanted, and then the solutions are insane

    “I’m sorry Mr Proto-Joker, social services have had their budgets slashed so we can no longer try and help you”
    “Ugh! Don’t you, a black woman, care about me at all?”
    “Actually these budget reductions are the result of Republicans using the specter of black women getting away with something to scare white people into voting for tax cuts, starving the government at every level and preventing me from giving you the help that you need because I too am a poorly paid, under-appreciated cog in the capitalist machine which works to separate us emotionally from one another. Of course I do empathize with you and I hope—“
    “Bitch”
    “Okay well that kind of language doesn’t seem necess—“
    “I’m gonna put on clown makeup and kill everyone who made fun of me!”
    I haven't seen the movie, and I don't want to give Todd too much credit, but I don't see how the actions of Joker, famous villain, can be intended as anything but the opposite of a solution

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  • AtomikaAtomika The Trepidatious Adventures of Gerardo the Wizard Registered User regular
    Coinage wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Joker is very Trumpian in the way it sort of correctly diagnoses some problems, albeit in a vague way that excludes minorities and is actually pretty slanted, and then the solutions are insane

    “I’m sorry Mr Proto-Joker, social services have had their budgets slashed so we can no longer try and help you”
    “Ugh! Don’t you, a black woman, care about me at all?”
    “Actually these budget reductions are the result of Republicans using the specter of black women getting away with something to scare white people into voting for tax cuts, starving the government at every level and preventing me from giving you the help that you need because I too am a poorly paid, under-appreciated cog in the capitalist machine which works to separate us emotionally from one another. Of course I do empathize with you and I hope—“
    “Bitch”
    “Okay well that kind of language doesn’t seem necess—“
    “I’m gonna put on clown makeup and kill everyone who made fun of me!”
    I haven't seen the movie, and I don't want to give Todd too much credit, but I don't see how the actions of Joker, famous villain, can be intended as anything but the opposite of a solution

    Because in this film the Joker is played as an endless victim of many, many things.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    Coinage wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Joker is very Trumpian in the way it sort of correctly diagnoses some problems, albeit in a vague way that excludes minorities and is actually pretty slanted, and then the solutions are insane

    “I’m sorry Mr Proto-Joker, social services have had their budgets slashed so we can no longer try and help you”
    “Ugh! Don’t you, a black woman, care about me at all?”
    “Actually these budget reductions are the result of Republicans using the specter of black women getting away with something to scare white people into voting for tax cuts, starving the government at every level and preventing me from giving you the help that you need because I too am a poorly paid, under-appreciated cog in the capitalist machine which works to separate us emotionally from one another. Of course I do empathize with you and I hope—“
    “Bitch”
    “Okay well that kind of language doesn’t seem necess—“
    “I’m gonna put on clown makeup and kill everyone who made fun of me!”
    I haven't seen the movie, and I don't want to give Todd too much credit, but I don't see how the actions of Joker, famous villain, can be intended as anything but the opposite of a solution

    Because in this film the Joker is played as an endless victim of many, many things.

    And tha'ts where it diverges from stuff like Taxi Driver. Travis Bickle is a broken man from the jump. Virtually all his problems are a result of his broken personality and most of the slights against him are imagined or self-perpetuated.

    Joker was more "let's dump on this guy till he goes completely nuts"

    Atomika
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    I really didn't like The Joker for many of the same reasons as the rest of you but you guys are mischaracterizing a fair bit of the film to a degree that actually kind of subverts your arguments. There's enough trash there without making things up.

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited January 14
    I really didn't like The Joker for many of the same reasons as the rest of you but you guys are mischaracterizing a fair bit of the film to a degree that actually kind of subverts your arguments. There's enough trash there without making things up.
    Wanna actually make the argument, then? It's very well possible that what you're saying is true, but argue your point. You just saying "That's not how it is" without saying *how* we're mischaracterising the film makes it difficult to have a discussion, to be honest. For instance, I don't actually know if you're responding to nexuscrawler, Atomika, me or anyone else.

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  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    edited January 14
    urahonky wrote: »
    Went ahead and bought Brotherhood of the Wolf. From the impressions here it seems stupid not to give it a watch. Is it a good group movie?

    A small content warning, there is a implied rape scene I think? I don't remember it being, like worse than the forced stuff in Gladiator, for comparison. There's so much batshit in that movie it's really hard to tell and remember stuff. Otherwise, it's great for groups.

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    I really didn't like The Joker for many of the same reasons as the rest of you but you guys are mischaracterizing a fair bit of the film to a degree that actually kind of subverts your arguments. There's enough trash there without making things up.
    Wanna actually make the argument, then? It's very well possible that what you're saying is true, but argue your point. You just saying "That's not how it is" without saying *how* we're mischaracterising the film makes it difficult to have a discussion, to be honest. For instance, I don't actually know if you're responding to nexuscrawler, Atomika, me or anyone else.

    I'm not really interested in making any arguments for or against The Joker as it was a complete waste of time as a film imo. My point is that if you're going to criticize it do it based on its merits or lack thereof. I just don't see the need to make things up or go into hyperbole for something that's already pretty stupid in its own right. If people are doing this they will know.

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Gerwig didn't get a best director nom? Ugh.
    It is rare for a movie to recontextualize a book to make the book retroactively better and also be an entertaining movie (a period drama, no less) on its own merits. The idea of starting in the second volume of Little Women (the novel) and using the first volume as flashbacks to give context to that plot and those scenes is so fucking brilliant. Somehow, she made Dunkirk out of a 19th century novel about relationships and family.

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  • HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    Gerwig didn't get a best director nom? Ugh.
    It is rare for a movie to recontextualize a book to make the book retroactively better and also be an entertaining movie (a period drama, no less) on its own merits. The idea of starting in the second volume of Little Women (the novel) and using the first volume as flashbacks to give context to that plot and those scenes is so fucking brilliant. Somehow, she made Dunkirk out of a 19th century novel about relationships and family.

    It's amazing how everything else about Little Women got nominated -- actress, supporting actress, screenplay, costuming, score, and best picture -- but no best director nom, when so far as I can tell Gerwig is what really set this adaptation apart.

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