Members of the House Judiciary Committee and other more liberal-minded lawmakers and congressional aides have been privately discussing the possibility of drafting articles that include obstruction of justice or other “high crimes” they believe are clearly outlined in special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s report — or allegations that Trump has used his office to benefit his bottom line.
The idea, however, is running into resistance from some moderate Democrats wary of impeachment blowback in their GOP-leaning districts, as well as Democratic leaders who sought to keep impeachment narrowly focused on allegations that Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate his political rivals, according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to talk freely.
...
“One crime of these sorts is enough, but when you have a pattern, it is even stronger,” said Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), a House Judiciary Committee member and co-chairman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. She said there is a strong case to be made for citing Mueller’s report in impeachment articles but cautioned that no decision has been made. “If you show that this is not only real in what’s happening with Ukraine, but it’s the exact same pattern that Mueller documented . . . to me, that just strengthens the case.”
“One crime of these sorts is enough, but when you have a pattern, it is even stronger,” said Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), a House Judiciary Committee member and co-chairman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. She said there is a strong case to be made for citing Mueller’s report in impeachment articles but cautioned that no decision has been made. “If you show that this is not only real in what’s happening with Ukraine, but it’s the exact same pattern that Mueller documented . . . to me, that just strengthens the case.”
To you, yes. Not to the general public though, to which this just sounds like sour grapes.
It is quite possible that the general semi-informed public will not believe or accept, and perhaps even cannot grasp, how many crimes Trump has committed. And if they did, many will argue that some of them aren't or shouldn't be crimes (when a Republican President does them).
Factual reporting and/or charges look like partisan hackery because the reality cannot possibly be true. It's just too much.
Another thing Barr's fuckery accomplished was papering over the counterintelligence investigation that's conspicuously missing. Nor the similarly missing money laundering investigation.
Mueller said these were outside of his purview, somehow. And of course Barr can be assumed to have quashed anything he could get away with.
It should be a huge scandal that we have no report on Russian leverage over officials or money laundering, but there are just too many scandals .
It's possible that the public will look at the Mueller report offenses and say, "oh wow, Trump has been committing impeachable offenses since the start!" But I think it's equally likely that people look at the Ukraine stuff and say, "oh, this stuff is just like the Mueller report stuff? Didn't the Mueller report exonerate Trump?"
I am... wary.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
The real problem with including other crimes is that the Ukraine scandal is already so complicated that the average person’s eyes glaze over thinking about it.
The real problem with including other crimes is that the Ukraine scandal is already so complicated that the average person’s eyes glaze over thinking about it.
Is it?
The president witheld vital military aid to an ally unless they dug up dirt he could use on his political opponent, which is both illegal and unethical.
If someone can't understand that, they either have the mental capacity of a literal toddler, or they don't want to understand.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
+83
Options
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The Ukraine scandal is one of the easiest to understand bits of corruption of all time.
It's just so fucking petty and stupid that the mind reels that it was a thing that actually occurred.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Yeah, part of the reason this gained traction so easily is how simple it is to understand. You don’t need years of context and background information like the Mueller report to understand the crimes Trump committed, it’s simple to understand because it’s basically a cheap gangster movie plot.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
The real problem with including other crimes is that the Ukraine scandal is already so complicated that the average person’s eyes glaze over thinking about it.
Is it?
The president witheld vital military aid to an ally unless they dug up dirt he could use on his political opponent, which is both illegal and unethical.
If someone can't understand that, they either have the mental capacity of a literal toddler, or they don't want to understand.
Yeah, part of the reason this gained traction so easily is how simple it is to understand. You don’t need years of context and background information like the Mueller report to understand the crimes Trump committed, it’s simple to understand because it’s basically a cheap gangster movie plot.
Also, they tried to cover it up in a way that's super easy to understand too. And the fact that you tried to cover it up is a huge signal to the average person that it was a crime.
The Ukrainian Affair was easy to understand when it was just the one call and cover up...
...but now there’s testimony including dates and different actors and their meetings and inappropriate firings involving Sean Hannity, etc, all great evidence that has hardened the pro-impeachment opinions of the people that pay attention to this stuff...
...but so many “independents” are that way due to willful avoidance of politics, so all that great evidence may turn them off to the process and impeachment altogether
It’s great to uncover the whole story and get the criminals, but keep the sales pitch about it strictly focused on the call and cover up
Captain Inertia on
+3
Options
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Like.
The ukraine thing is literally just a version of "Hey, it'd be nice if someone didn't break yer legs so youse'd do this favor for me" except with politics.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
There is way more than just one call and a cover up to Ukraine. Trump had been pushing Ukraine for that Biden investigation for months while entangling his corrupt personal agenda with what the United States was actually officially trying to accomplish with our foreign policy in regards to Ukraine.
It's important to know that this wasn't just an off the cuff mention by Trump in a phone call but the reiteration of something that he had been pushing for months to the detriment of the work of the legitimate diplomats like Hill, Taylor, and Vindman.
Part of the problem is it moves into foreign policy, which is something like 90% of the Presidents job, and an instant turn-off for most Americans because it doesn't concern them.
Who cares about what he did with a country halfway around the world? Where's Ukraine, anyway? It's in Russia? But Russia loves the President, why would they care? Why aren't they talking about important issues, like taxes/education/immigration/that neighbour of mine who plays music way too loud?
It is quite possible that the general semi-informed public will not believe or accept, and perhaps even cannot grasp, how many crimes Trump has committed. And if they did, many will argue that some of them aren't or shouldn't be crimes (when a Republican President does them).
Factual reporting and/or charges look like partisan hackery because the reality cannot possibly be true. It's just too much.
This gets into the problem. I've been reading through How Democracies Die and, while it's chilling to see how closely Trump sticks to the gameplan of other would-be authoritarians, it's also frustrating as the potential remedies are ALSO right out of the authoritarian playbook. Absent the context that Trump actually did all of these things, the optics of having the former president (and likely at least some of his children) immediately charged with a slew of crimes are terrible. And the reality is that even that step probably isn't enough - realistically, there are probably also a lot of compromised Republican legislators (the July-4-in-Moscow gang, for instance) that should also be headed to jail. The thing is, again, having multiple members of the Trump family, several of his cabinet members, multiple Republican operatives, multiple legislators, and multiple donors arrested and incarcerated looks exactly like what you'd see in a third-world coup and plays right into the persecuted right narrative.
It is quite possible that the general semi-informed public will not believe or accept, and perhaps even cannot grasp, how many crimes Trump has committed. And if they did, many will argue that some of them aren't or shouldn't be crimes (when a Republican President does them).
Factual reporting and/or charges look like partisan hackery because the reality cannot possibly be true. It's just too much.
This gets into the problem. I've been reading through How Democracies Die and, while it's chilling to see how closely Trump sticks to the gameplan of other would-be authoritarians, it's also frustrating as the potential remedies are ALSO right out of the authoritarian playbook. Absent the context that Trump actually did all of these things, the optics of having the former president (and likely at least some of his children) immediately charged with a slew of crimes are terrible. And the reality is that even that step probably isn't enough - realistically, there are probably also a lot of compromised Republican legislators (the July-4-in-Moscow gang, for instance) that should also be headed to jail. The thing is, again, having multiple members of the Trump family, several of his cabinet members, multiple Republican operatives, multiple legislators, and multiple donors arrested and incarcerated looks exactly like what you'd see in a third-world coup and plays right into the persecuted right narrative.
The thing is, everything plays into the persecuted right narrative, because that's how it works - it's all about creating a context of persecution without actually caring about what is actually going on. And the reality is that the context is important - arresting a former president on false charges is authoritarian - but arresting him on actual, legitimate charges is decidedly not.
For basically all the same reasons that the Mazars arguments were rejected. All eggs in the Supreme Court basket for them at this point. Really have my fingers crossed that Roberts understands the Court's reputation will be shot and/or Gorsuch's libertarian streak come down on this crap hard.
You're one hell of an optimist if you think Roberts and Gorsuch will do anything pro-government during their tenures
Gorsuch is a literal anarcho capitalist
Do you mean pro-Congress? Because Congress and the President are both part of the government, as much as the right wing wishes (for the moment) that only the latter is.
So uh... this is kind of a big deal? Like, the sort of thing that should be an article of impeachment by itself. A staggering amount of corruption, on a scale hitherto unforeseen.
So uh... this is kind of a big deal? Like, the sort of thing that should be an article of impeachment by itself. A staggering amount of corruption, on a scale hitherto unforeseen.
Trump has repeatedly pushed for Fisher to get a wall-building contract, urging officials with the Army Corps of Engineers to pick the firm — only to be told that Fisher’s bids did not meet standards. Trump’s entreaties on behalf of the company have concerned some officials who are unaccustomed to a president getting personally involved in the intricacies of government contracting.
That should be enough to be a huge scandal in and of itself.
+59
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
It should be noted the CEO repeatedly promoted himself on Fox News.
So uh... this is kind of a big deal? Like, the sort of thing that should be an article of impeachment by itself. A staggering amount of corruption, on a scale hitherto unforeseen.
The real problem with including other crimes is that the Ukraine scandal is already so complicated that the average person’s eyes glaze over thinking about it.
Is it?
The president witheld vital military aid to an ally unless they dug up dirt he could use on his political opponent, which is both illegal and unethical.
If someone can't understand that, they either have the mental capacity of a literal toddler, or they don't want to understand.
This is vast majority of the American people.
More the latter than the former. Humans in general think of learning from their own mistakes and changing their opinions in the same way that chickens think of flying. They possess all the necessary parts and are quite capable of it, but they consider it a waste of effort and most go their entire lives without ever actually doing it.
The “it’s not that bad because all politicians do it” excuse falls apart under even the smallest of scrutiny.
Trump has been in power for three years now and has yet to uncover diddly squat on Obama, despite having control over the investigating and intelligence agencies of the government and he can declassify whatever he wants. So why don’t we know about all of Obama’s crimes if they all do it?
Yeah, sure, “deep state” or whatever, but that still falls apart because it’s Trump’s own people that are also turning on him.
Even if we don’t scrutinize it, people still realize this unwittingly, because Trump and his sycophants keep trying to minimize his crimes and exaggerating everything else. They still chant “lock her up” at his rallies, even if they delude themselves, they subconsciously know that it’s never gonna happen after three years with nothing to show.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
The excuse at this point isn't even that it's not a crime nor is the problem that people don't understand the scam.
The issue is that a lot of people think all politicians do this and so there's nothing wrong with what Trump did.
And the reason that people think this is because we've allowed a false narrative about crooked politicians to take root.
I agree, but who is “we”? The intelligent/aware? I mean, I’m a part of “people” - what do we do? How do I, personally, get fellow Americans to stop being so goddamned intellectually lazy?
The excuse at this point isn't even that it's not a crime nor is the problem that people don't understand the scam.
The issue is that a lot of people think all politicians do this and so there's nothing wrong with what Trump did.
And the reason that people think this is because we've allowed a false narrative about crooked politicians to take root.
I agree, but who is “we”? The intelligent/aware? I mean, I’m a part of “people” - what do we do? How do I, personally, get fellow Americans to stop being so goddamned intellectually lazy?
Truthfully? Programming the new generations. You're not gonna manage it with existing Americans, it needs to be instilled from an early age and education.
You're one hell of an optimist if you think Roberts and Gorsuch will do anything pro-government during their tenures
Gorsuch is a literal anarcho capitalist
Do you mean pro-Congress? Because Congress and the President are both part of the government, as much as the right wing wishes (for the moment) that only the latter is.
No, I mean pro government
As far as most conservatives and most ancaps are concerned, the government exists to keep poor people and minorities in line and subservient to white men and not much else
A corrupt business man and his family and friends running rough shod over government and minorities is a wet dream for an ancap
The excuse at this point isn't even that it's not a crime nor is the problem that people don't understand the scam.
The issue is that a lot of people think all politicians do this and so there's nothing wrong with what Trump did.
And the reason that people think this is because we've allowed a false narrative about crooked politicians to take root.
I agree, but who is “we”? The intelligent/aware? I mean, I’m a part of “people” - what do we do? How do I, personally, get fellow Americans to stop being so goddamned intellectually lazy?
Truthfully? Programming the new generations. You're not gonna manage it with existing Americans, it needs to be instilled from an early age and education.
And that's why education in this country has been sabotaged at every level, because an ignorant electorate... ah, but I'm getting off-topic.
Except, I suppose, in that Trump himself is a perfect example, and that's why they elected him and continue to support him against all those educated liberal elites who think they know more than good, honest working folks.
The excuse at this point isn't even that it's not a crime nor is the problem that people don't understand the scam.
The issue is that a lot of people think all politicians do this and so there's nothing wrong with what Trump did.
And the reason that people think this is because we've allowed a false narrative about crooked politicians to take root.
I agree, but who is “we”? The intelligent/aware? I mean, I’m a part of “people” - what do we do? How do I, personally, get fellow Americans to stop being so goddamned intellectually lazy?
Truthfully? Programming the new generations. You're not gonna manage it with existing Americans, it needs to be instilled from an early age and education.
Yeah, the current state of affairs was a deliberate effort by right-wingers and private actors to destroy faith and trust in government. You can see it at work throughout the 70s and 80s especially. And it worked really really well.
And the result is a political outlook in our cultures that thinks all politicians are corrupt, which provides cover for blatantly corrupt politicians because voters think silly things.
You're one hell of an optimist if you think Roberts and Gorsuch will do anything pro-government during their tenures
Gorsuch is a literal anarcho capitalist
Do you mean pro-Congress? Because Congress and the President are both part of the government, as much as the right wing wishes (for the moment) that only the latter is.
No, I mean pro government
As far as most conservatives and most ancaps are concerned, the government exists to keep poor people and minorities in line and subservient to white men and not much else
A corrupt business man and his family and friends running rough shod over government and minorities is a wet dream for an ancap
So SCOTUS will produce an anti-government ruling by ruling in favour of the government's defense against the government's prosecution?
Posts
Or an inch less than was required either.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Factual reporting and/or charges look like partisan hackery because the reality cannot possibly be true. It's just too much.
Mueller said these were outside of his purview, somehow. And of course Barr can be assumed to have quashed anything he could get away with.
It should be a huge scandal that we have no report on Russian leverage over officials or money laundering, but there are just too many scandals .
I am... wary.
Is it?
The president witheld vital military aid to an ally unless they dug up dirt he could use on his political opponent, which is both illegal and unethical.
If someone can't understand that, they either have the mental capacity of a literal toddler, or they don't want to understand.
It's just so fucking petty and stupid that the mind reels that it was a thing that actually occurred.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
This is vast majority of the American people.
Also, they tried to cover it up in a way that's super easy to understand too. And the fact that you tried to cover it up is a huge signal to the average person that it was a crime.
...but now there’s testimony including dates and different actors and their meetings and inappropriate firings involving Sean Hannity, etc, all great evidence that has hardened the pro-impeachment opinions of the people that pay attention to this stuff...
...but so many “independents” are that way due to willful avoidance of politics, so all that great evidence may turn them off to the process and impeachment altogether
It’s great to uncover the whole story and get the criminals, but keep the sales pitch about it strictly focused on the call and cover up
The ukraine thing is literally just a version of "Hey, it'd be nice if someone didn't break yer legs so youse'd do this favor for me" except with politics.
The issue is that a lot of people think all politicians do this and so there's nothing wrong with what Trump did.
It's important to know that this wasn't just an off the cuff mention by Trump in a phone call but the reiteration of something that he had been pushing for months to the detriment of the work of the legitimate diplomats like Hill, Taylor, and Vindman.
Who cares about what he did with a country halfway around the world? Where's Ukraine, anyway? It's in Russia? But Russia loves the President, why would they care? Why aren't they talking about important issues, like taxes/education/immigration/that neighbour of mine who plays music way too loud?
And the reason that people think this is because we've allowed a false narrative about crooked politicians to take root.
This gets into the problem. I've been reading through How Democracies Die and, while it's chilling to see how closely Trump sticks to the gameplan of other would-be authoritarians, it's also frustrating as the potential remedies are ALSO right out of the authoritarian playbook. Absent the context that Trump actually did all of these things, the optics of having the former president (and likely at least some of his children) immediately charged with a slew of crimes are terrible. And the reality is that even that step probably isn't enough - realistically, there are probably also a lot of compromised Republican legislators (the July-4-in-Moscow gang, for instance) that should also be headed to jail. The thing is, again, having multiple members of the Trump family, several of his cabinet members, multiple Republican operatives, multiple legislators, and multiple donors arrested and incarcerated looks exactly like what you'd see in a third-world coup and plays right into the persecuted right narrative.
Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
The thing is, everything plays into the persecuted right narrative, because that's how it works - it's all about creating a context of persecution without actually caring about what is actually going on. And the reality is that the context is important - arresting a former president on false charges is authoritarian - but arresting him on actual, legitimate charges is decidedly not.
http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/7da51428-41d4-4a3c-ae06-f359100cd041/1/doc/19-1540_complete_opn.pdf#xml=http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/7da51428-41d4-4a3c-ae06-f359100cd041/1/hilite/
For basically all the same reasons that the Mazars arguments were rejected. All eggs in the Supreme Court basket for them at this point. Really have my fingers crossed that Roberts understands the Court's reputation will be shot and/or Gorsuch's libertarian streak come down on this crap hard.
Gorsuch is a literal anarcho capitalist
Do you mean pro-Congress? Because Congress and the President are both part of the government, as much as the right wing wishes (for the moment) that only the latter is.
(Josh Dawsey is a WaPo reporter and CNN analyst.)
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I would not be surprised if this appealed by other companies due to Trump's comments much like the JEDI contract for DoD.
Time to adjust Teapot Dome for inflation...
More the latter than the former. Humans in general think of learning from their own mistakes and changing their opinions in the same way that chickens think of flying. They possess all the necessary parts and are quite capable of it, but they consider it a waste of effort and most go their entire lives without ever actually doing it.
Trump has been in power for three years now and has yet to uncover diddly squat on Obama, despite having control over the investigating and intelligence agencies of the government and he can declassify whatever he wants. So why don’t we know about all of Obama’s crimes if they all do it?
Yeah, sure, “deep state” or whatever, but that still falls apart because it’s Trump’s own people that are also turning on him.
Even if we don’t scrutinize it, people still realize this unwittingly, because Trump and his sycophants keep trying to minimize his crimes and exaggerating everything else. They still chant “lock her up” at his rallies, even if they delude themselves, they subconsciously know that it’s never gonna happen after three years with nothing to show.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Trump’s been pretty transparent of his plan to use it to launder money
I agree, but who is “we”? The intelligent/aware? I mean, I’m a part of “people” - what do we do? How do I, personally, get fellow Americans to stop being so goddamned intellectually lazy?
Truthfully? Programming the new generations. You're not gonna manage it with existing Americans, it needs to be instilled from an early age and education.
No, I mean pro government
As far as most conservatives and most ancaps are concerned, the government exists to keep poor people and minorities in line and subservient to white men and not much else
A corrupt business man and his family and friends running rough shod over government and minorities is a wet dream for an ancap
And that's why education in this country has been sabotaged at every level, because an ignorant electorate... ah, but I'm getting off-topic.
Except, I suppose, in that Trump himself is a perfect example, and that's why they elected him and continue to support him against all those educated liberal elites who think they know more than good, honest working folks.
Yeah, the current state of affairs was a deliberate effort by right-wingers and private actors to destroy faith and trust in government. You can see it at work throughout the 70s and 80s especially. And it worked really really well.
And the result is a political outlook in our cultures that thinks all politicians are corrupt, which provides cover for blatantly corrupt politicians because voters think silly things.
So SCOTUS will produce an anti-government ruling by ruling in favour of the government's defense against the government's prosecution?
The goal of the GOP is to dismantle government