With RoS, Disney took a safety in order to not spoil the brand and future project. They didn't want to take a risk and end it like Game of Thrones leaving tons of people uninterested in future GoT projects.
And in doing so they made almost all the same mistakes as the end of GoT and came very close to doing exactly that. If Star Wars didn't already have cultural momentum, and if The Mandelorian didn't come out, this might be the case.
I have a feeling people will very quickly start ignoring this movies existence. It's the second worst Star Wars movie (fuckin' AoTC).
The prequel trilogy had the advantage of people knowing that it was eventually going somewhere good, even if those good parts had already been made years ago. After RoS I just don't care any more. The whole thing was so contrived and empty that it feels like the universe has effectively ceased to exist. All it did was burn through all of the remaining nostalgia for the past generations, while leaving nothing behind that people will care about in the future.
AotC is way better than RoS in my opinion. RoS is far and away my least enjoyed Star War.
It feels like a pointless contest between whether it's worse to be bad on your own or whether it's worse to piss everything away and squander all your opportunities. They can both just be bad enough the distinction doesn't matter imo.
+2
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Both the prequels and the sequels have good things and bad things about them, and in both the latter generally outweigh the former.
What exactly is 'last minute' supposed to mean in this context?
Abrams was talking, in April, about how he was glad McDiarmid on set during filming (which wrapped in March) didn't leak before the teaser released (in April).
At least for me, with the sequel trilogy, we got two and a half good films. TFA was a lot of fun. TLJ was fantastic. TROS is the only one I'm conflicted on. There were plenty of disappointing choices made with it, but after coming to terms with those, there were enough bits I enjoyed, and the cast were still good in their roles.
TLJ and TFA were like one pass each from being amongst the best Star Wars out there.
TROS is either one pass of the script too many or three more away from being good. It's worst sin is JJ being a brat about what TLJ did post TFA and instead of working with it he opted to skin it and drape it over whatever ideas he had for a trilogy he didn't sign on to write
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AotC is way better than RoS in my opinion. RoS is far and away my least enjoyed Star War.
It feels like a pointless contest between whether it's worse to be bad on your own or whether it's worse to piss everything away and squander all your opportunities. They can both just be bad enough the distinction doesn't matter imo.
I guess if you just want to rank movies, sure, they can both be just bad. But I run a tabletop rpg set after RotJ. RoS hurts my enthusiasm to show up and run my game. I get that most people don't engage with the extra material, but I do. RoS is just much worse as far as maintaining the sandbox goes.
TLJ and TFA were like one pass each from being amongst the best Star Wars out there.
TROS is either one pass of the script too many or three more away from being good. It's worst sin is JJ being a brat about what TLJ did post TFA and instead of working with it he opted to skin it and drape it over whatever ideas he had for a trilogy he didn't sign on to write
The pass for TFA would have had to involve more worldbuilding and a higher degree of respect for how space works, which means that maybe it would have been impossible? I can't comment on the Rathtars, I happened to choose that part of the movie to take a quick bathroom break and got the strong impression afterwards that I didn't miss much.
Is it just me, or does that chair looks like it would be absolute murder on your spine after a few hours?
I mean, I'd think that, being the supreme leader of The First Order, you'd be able to get a comfortable looking chair. That one is just way too slouchy.
I feel that I could make an argument that TFA is the worst, despite being a perfectly adequate movie, for what it did to everyone and everything in service to making the setting feel like the OT.
AotC is way better than RoS in my opinion. RoS is far and away my least enjoyed Star War.
It feels like a pointless contest between whether it's worse to be bad on your own or whether it's worse to piss everything away and squander all your opportunities. They can both just be bad enough the distinction doesn't matter imo.
I guess if you just want to rank movies, sure, they can both be just bad. But I run a tabletop rpg set after RotJ. RoS hurts my enthusiasm to show up and run my game. I get that most people don't engage with the extra material, but I do. RoS is just much worse as far as maintaining the sandbox goes.
I feel ya. ROS has so much more going for it and so the disappointment is so crushing in terms of how it both squanders opportunities and shuts the door on better ideas.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
We need a better way to differentiate Revenge of the Sith and Rise of Skywalker.
Yeah it's boring as heck a lot of times, and the story is stupid, but at least there's some action scenes like podracing that are visually interesting and of course Duel of the Fates fuckin' slaps.
Rise of Skywalker is hurried garbage that also has a bad story plus the action scenes are a visual mess. Even if there were anything interesting to latch on to the movie is in too big a rush to get onto the next thing for me to appreciate it at all. Yeah cool Babu Frik is fun but don't blink or you'll miss his scenes.
TPM is like having a normally great pizza that's riddled with tumors. For every bite that you enjoy there is a mouthful of God's contempt for our flesh made physical to pair with it.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
We need a better way to differentiate Revenge of the Sith and Rise of Skywalker.
Add a "T" for the "The" in "The Rise of Skywalker". People already do it for every other movie that has a "The" in it: The Phantom Menace (TPM), The Force Awakens (TFA), The Last Jedi (TLJ)
Inquisitor77 on
+1
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
We need a better way to differentiate Revenge of the Sith and Rise of Skywalker.
Add a "T" for the "The" in "The Rise of Skywalker". People already do it for every other movie that has a "The" in it: The Phantom Menace (TPM), The Force Awakens (TFA), The Last Jedi (TLJ)
If people were consistent about it, I wouldn't be as confused. about this specific thing. probably.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited January 2020
Then for the sake of clarification, we should really refer to the saga by it's full acronym: TPMAotCRotSANHESBRotJTFATLJRoS.
Any references to the main saga not using this acronym will heretofore be met with "what are you talking about?" It is also worth a base eleventy billion points in scrabble.
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+3
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Empire is clearly the worst
After the first bit almost nothing happens for 2/3s of the movie!
Then the big M Knight Twist
And finally the total downer ending! I go to movies to be entertained. Waiting three years to pay more money to see the good guys win is some kind of false advertising, I'm sure of it
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
TPM at least has duel of fates
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
After the first bit almost nothing happens for 2/3s of the movie!
Then the big M Knight Twist
And finally the total downer ending! I go to movies to be entertained. Waiting three years to pay more money to see the good guys win is some kind of false advertising, I'm sure of it
You joke, but my mom dropped me off at the public library to watch Empire with a group of other 5 and 6 year olds. That movie broke my heart, I'd never been so sad and beaten at that point in my life.
Shortly after, I started having nightmares where the bad 70's carpeting in the children's section was actually swamp scum water. I would sink to my thighs whenever I tried to check out a book and the thing that spits out R2 would eat my legs. Not scary, just super sad. I didn't put Luke's hand and my legs dream together until I was much older.
So yeah, the wait for a happier ending was pretty rough.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
Oh I get it. I would've been super pissed if I saw Empire in theaters. Ever since seeing Kill Bill in theaters I have felt a grudge against anything that felt like "half a movie"
Looking at you Infinity War
Temple of Doom is radically different to Raiders, tries some things people don't like, has some genuine flaws, and inspired its direct sequel to be safer. And yet in ways it's more interesting than its predecessor or successor.
+2
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
All you people arguing about whether TRoS or AotC was the worst Star Wars movie... did you forget Phantom Menace exists?
Phantom Menace is boring, which could be considered the greater crime for a Star Wars movie. And Phantom has more Jar Jar, it is true.
But Attack of the Clones, as a film, is by far the worse of the two when it comes to being written and directed. It is constructed poorly. And also it has Hayden Christiansen directed by George Lucas trying to deliver romantic dialog Lucas wrote in like 2000.
Oh I get it. I would've been super pissed if I saw Empire in theaters. Ever since seeing Kill Bill in theaters I have felt a grudge against anything that felt like "half a movie"
Looking at you Infinity War
This is what you get when the second and third films get confirmed at the same time. Also Back to the Future, the Matrix, Pirates of the Caribbean, probably way more I haven't seen...
(Although BttF2 at least had its own story that they dealt with in that movie, they just threw Doc back at the end to give them a fresh problem)
If an episode looks like it's going to feature Padme or Jar-Jar heavily, that's a pretty good indicator that it's a weaker episode. But even then, I don't remember any of those episodes being downright awful, and at least one Jar-Jar episode is just excellent.
I guess you mean Jar Jar and Mace Windu on a mission?
Temple of Doom is radically different to Raiders, tries some things people don't like, has some genuine flaws, and inspired its direct sequel to be safer. And yet in ways it's more interesting than its predecessor or successor.
I very much agree with you with respect to Crusade, which I find very enjoyable but also too much of a copy of Raiders, but in what ways would you consider Temple of Doom more interesting than its predecessor?
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Temple of Doom is radically different to Raiders, tries some things people don't like, has some genuine flaws, and inspired its direct sequel to be safer. And yet in ways it's more interesting than its predecessor or successor.
I very much agree with you with respect to Crusade, which I find very enjoyable but also too much of a copy of Raiders, but in what ways would you consider Temple of Doom more interesting than its predecessor?
The chief one would be expanding Indie himself. In Raiders he has two modes: College Professor and Get-in-the-muck archaeologist adventurer. The suave negotiation at the nightclub is something different.
And also like Jedi it had subversion, when he tries his shoot-the-swordsman trick and finds himself gunless.
It's not a one-to-one analogy, especially with how Crusade stacks up to Skywalker, but both Temple and Jedi have ambition behind their flaws, and then you get into the question of which is better, to try something different and fail, or fall back on tried and true elements.
Thanks. I'm not sure I'd call these more interesting than Raiders, which suggests that Raiders is less interesting, since they expand and vary things from the first film but therefore depend on the first film to work and can take some of what Raiders did for granted. In any case, like so many, I'm not a huge fan of Temple, but that intro sequence is still up there with the very best parts of the franchise.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
BUT IT WAS PLANNED FROM THE START LOOK AT THIS YOUTUBE VIDEO
While the idea that Palpatine was always intended to be a big thing feels like nonsense (unless it was but it was supposed to be set up in the middle movie, but it wasn't so pretending it was is dumb), the idea that they strapped him into the movie at the last second is also goofy.
We know he was in the movie no later than March 2019 when they wrapped principal photography, because a month later when it was revealed he'd be back Abrams was all pleased in interviews that it was kept secret that he was on set.
An artbook that is supposed to release a year later in Korea not having him in it when it leaks in January tells us someone fucked up, but I'm not sure what the leap being made here is?
The movie has enough problems, I'm not sure what the value is in developing conspiracy theories about ways it could secretly be shittier.
The art book is concept art, bringing him in fairly last minute could mean not having had concept sketches/storyboards done, just writing a draft and filming it
and considering the total mess of a story and the dreadful pacing...
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The prequel trilogy had the advantage of people knowing that it was eventually going somewhere good, even if those good parts had already been made years ago. After RoS I just don't care any more. The whole thing was so contrived and empty that it feels like the universe has effectively ceased to exist. All it did was burn through all of the remaining nostalgia for the past generations, while leaving nothing behind that people will care about in the future.
It feels like a pointless contest between whether it's worse to be bad on your own or whether it's worse to piss everything away and squander all your opportunities. They can both just be bad enough the distinction doesn't matter imo.
What exactly is 'last minute' supposed to mean in this context?
Abrams was talking, in April, about how he was glad McDiarmid on set during filming (which wrapped in March) didn't leak before the teaser released (in April).
TROS is either one pass of the script too many or three more away from being good. It's worst sin is JJ being a brat about what TLJ did post TFA and instead of working with it he opted to skin it and drape it over whatever ideas he had for a trilogy he didn't sign on to write
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This makes no sense to me.
Jedi>Awakens>>>>>>Skywalker
I guess if you just want to rank movies, sure, they can both be just bad. But I run a tabletop rpg set after RotJ. RoS hurts my enthusiasm to show up and run my game. I get that most people don't engage with the extra material, but I do. RoS is just much worse as far as maintaining the sandbox goes.
TPM is the most superfluous of the nine.
AOTC was until recently uncontested in how badly it told essential parts of the saga.
Rise is like right there though xx
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I put TPM and TRoS in a 'oof, this is a mess, but I find it strangely entertaining despite that' category.
AotC is just joylessly awful, except for some Obi-Wan stuff.
The pass for TFA would have had to involve more worldbuilding and a higher degree of respect for how space works, which means that maybe it would have been impossible? I can't comment on the Rathtars, I happened to choose that part of the movie to take a quick bathroom break and got the strong impression afterwards that I didn't miss much.
Is it just me, or does that chair looks like it would be absolute murder on your spine after a few hours?
I mean, I'd think that, being the supreme leader of The First Order, you'd be able to get a comfortable looking chair. That one is just way too slouchy.
I feel ya. ROS has so much more going for it and so the disappointment is so crushing in terms of how it both squanders opportunities and shuts the door on better ideas.
TPM is superfluous, which is strike against it as far as the series as a series, but taken on its own merits it is pretty enjoyable.
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Yeah it's boring as heck a lot of times, and the story is stupid, but at least there's some action scenes like podracing that are visually interesting and of course Duel of the Fates fuckin' slaps.
Rise of Skywalker is hurried garbage that also has a bad story plus the action scenes are a visual mess. Even if there were anything interesting to latch on to the movie is in too big a rush to get onto the next thing for me to appreciate it at all. Yeah cool Babu Frik is fun but don't blink or you'll miss his scenes.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
Add a "T" for the "The" in "The Rise of Skywalker". People already do it for every other movie that has a "The" in it: The Phantom Menace (TPM), The Force Awakens (TFA), The Last Jedi (TLJ)
If people were consistent about it, I wouldn't be as confused. about this specific thing. probably.
Any references to the main saga not using this acronym will heretofore be met with "what are you talking about?" It is also worth a base eleventy billion points in scrabble.
After the first bit almost nothing happens for 2/3s of the movie!
Then the big M Knight Twist
And finally the total downer ending! I go to movies to be entertained. Waiting three years to pay more money to see the good guys win is some kind of false advertising, I'm sure of it
You joke, but my mom dropped me off at the public library to watch Empire with a group of other 5 and 6 year olds. That movie broke my heart, I'd never been so sad and beaten at that point in my life.
Shortly after, I started having nightmares where the bad 70's carpeting in the children's section was actually swamp scum water. I would sink to my thighs whenever I tried to check out a book and the thing that spits out R2 would eat my legs. Not scary, just super sad. I didn't put Luke's hand and my legs dream together until I was much older.
So yeah, the wait for a happier ending was pretty rough.
Looking at you Infinity War
Temple of Doom is radically different to Raiders, tries some things people don't like, has some genuine flaws, and inspired its direct sequel to be safer. And yet in ways it's more interesting than its predecessor or successor.
Phantom Menace is boring, which could be considered the greater crime for a Star Wars movie. And Phantom has more Jar Jar, it is true.
But Attack of the Clones, as a film, is by far the worse of the two when it comes to being written and directed. It is constructed poorly. And also it has Hayden Christiansen directed by George Lucas trying to deliver romantic dialog Lucas wrote in like 2000.
(Although BttF2 at least had its own story that they dealt with in that movie, they just threw Doc back at the end to give them a fresh problem)
I guess you mean Jar Jar and Mace Windu on a mission?
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
The chief one would be expanding Indie himself. In Raiders he has two modes: College Professor and Get-in-the-muck archaeologist adventurer. The suave negotiation at the nightclub is something different.
And also like Jedi it had subversion, when he tries his shoot-the-swordsman trick and finds himself gunless.
It's not a one-to-one analogy, especially with how Crusade stacks up to Skywalker, but both Temple and Jedi have ambition behind their flaws, and then you get into the question of which is better, to try something different and fail, or fall back on tried and true elements.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
BUT IT WAS PLANNED FROM THE START LOOK AT THIS YOUTUBE VIDEO
While the idea that Palpatine was always intended to be a big thing feels like nonsense (unless it was but it was supposed to be set up in the middle movie, but it wasn't so pretending it was is dumb), the idea that they strapped him into the movie at the last second is also goofy.
We know he was in the movie no later than March 2019 when they wrapped principal photography, because a month later when it was revealed he'd be back Abrams was all pleased in interviews that it was kept secret that he was on set.
An artbook that is supposed to release a year later in Korea not having him in it when it leaks in January tells us someone fucked up, but I'm not sure what the leap being made here is?
The movie has enough problems, I'm not sure what the value is in developing conspiracy theories about ways it could secretly be shittier.
and considering the total mess of a story and the dreadful pacing...