[Star Wars] Open TROS Spoilers! Beware!

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  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    Senna1 wrote: »
    Nothing about pod racing required Anakin to be, like, 6 years old. And yeah, everything that happens in TPM makes the rest of the PT Padme arc SUPER creepy. Just 'nope' all around. Their relationship should be taboo because of the silly Jedi rules, not because it's actually fucking wrong and reprehensible. Gives an entirely different tone to everything...

    But there's so much wrong with the PT, it's barely worth diving to granular levels like that. Disney could wipe them and re-make them entirely keeping only broad strokes and what's canon from the OT, and be better off.

    According to Weird Al Yankovic he's just nine and she's fourteen.

    I would agree both Portman and Young Anakin are miscast. Natalie Portman can't play a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD I'm not saying she's some old shrew (then OR now) but FOURTEEN is a hard ask. And Anakin looks 6. Do a Freshman/Senior relationship or something at least.

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  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    Anakin was too young to race.

  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I'm sure everybody has a better edit for the prequels than good ol' George did. But endless armchair re-edits are exhausting.

    But its been 20 years. Accept the shit and move on, I say. :) We have a lot more recent things to complain about.

    Completely agree. It doesn’t make it any less compelling to study the redeeming and redeemable elements and recognize that most of it was workable.

  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    I'm sure everybody has a better edit for the prequels than good ol' George did. But endless armchair re-edits are exhausting.

    But its been 20 years. Accept the shit and move on, I say. :) We have a lot more recent things to complain about.

    20 years since TPM? FUCK I'm old.

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  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    It is always easier to criticize than to create. That is why allot of creators have contempt for critics.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I get that phrase, but that doesn't make thing immune from criticism.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Krathoon wrote: »
    It is always easier to criticize than to create. That is why allot of creators have contempt for critics.

    It's fun, too.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
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  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    Back to your regularly scheduled arguing about TLJ and Rogue One I guess.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    There are a lot of things the prequels should have done.

    I know not everyone likes everything coming out these days, but it's leagues better than Lucas's constant tinkering with the OT with virtually nothing else releasing until the PT.

    These days there's at least something enjoyed by the various groups of fans.

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  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    The sequels, to me, do a much better job of understanding what made Star Wars great. I know they may not totally hold up if you're looking for reasons to be disappointed with the narrative, but hell, you could do that with most movies including many parts of the OT. (Why would they design the exhaust port like that? How long was Luke training anyways? Etc)

    To me, the fight between Ren and Rey in the snow on Starkiller Base while Poe blows up yet another planet destroying super weapon is like peak Star Wars. Not in that it is the best moment, but if you were to distill what Star Wars is about and give someone who never knew anything about Star Wars a five minute clip to get them on board, that's it.

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  • GaryOGaryO Registered User regular
    There was a fan idea I read once that Anakin was basically using the force on Padme to make her fall for him.

    She starts the film off pretty condescending to him. 'ah little ani all grown up', 'you'll always be that little boy to me' + that one time shes talking to Obi-Win and is basically tells Anakin to be quiet because the grown ups are talking.
    Yet only after a couple days of hanging around with creepy Anakin (complete with pro-tyranncy rants and single handedly murdering an village) shes in love with him.
    Sorry but I don't buy it, Anakin went basically full creeper incel mode and mind raped her with the force

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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    GaryO wrote: »
    There was a fan idea I read once that Anakin was basically using the force on Padme to make her fall for him.

    She starts the film off pretty condescending to him. 'ah little ani all grown up', 'you'll always be that little boy to me' + that one time shes talking to Obi-Win and is basically tells Anakin to be quiet because the grown ups are talking.
    Yet only after a couple days of hanging around with creepy Anakin (complete with pro-tyranncy rants and single handedly murdering an village) shes in love with him.
    Sorry but I don't buy it, Anakin went basically full creeper incel mode and mind raped her with the force

    Thats a real bad theory, imo, and I hate it.

    It ruins the core tenant of Anakin's fall. That he actually loved Padme and she loved him and he was willing to do anything to save her. And it ruins Anakin's redemption, that he did it for his son who was the only remaining piece of this woman he truly did love.

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  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    The sequels, to me, do a much better job of understanding what made Star Wars great. I know they may not totally hold up if you're looking for reasons to be disappointed with the narrative, but hell, you could do that with most movies including many parts of the OT. (Why would they design the exhaust port like that? How long was Luke training anyways? Etc)

    To me, the fight between Ren and Rey in the snow on Starkiller Base while Poe blows up yet another planet destroying super weapon is like peak Star Wars. Not in that it is the best moment, but if you were to distill what Star Wars is about and give someone who never knew anything about Star Wars a five minute clip to get them on board, that's it.

    The new films do an excellent job at the moments (mostly). I have some issues with their handling of the overall plot, but by and large they really nail the individual scenes. All the actors have done really good jobs with the material they have been given to work with.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Yeah, it's the sort of thing I bring up in conversations like this, to smirk about (when it's really a cover for George's well-established inability to write dialogue and/or romance), but don't actually take seriously.
    I believe he did love her, and she him. But George.

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  • Senna1Senna1 Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    The sequels, to me, do a much better job of understanding what made Star Wars great. I know they may not totally hold up if you're looking for reasons to be disappointed with the narrative, but hell, you could do that with most movies including many parts of the OT. (Why would they design the exhaust port like that? How long was Luke training anyways? Etc)

    To me, the fight between Ren and Rey in the snow on Starkiller Base while Poe blows up yet another planet destroying super weapon is like peak Star Wars. Not in that it is the best moment, but if you were to distill what Star Wars is about and give someone who never knew anything about Star Wars a five minute clip to get them on board, that's it.
    I tend to agree with this. I can understand that Lucas had no creative interest in re-hashing the OT when he set off to make the PT, like, that's fine. What's not fine is the cringe-worthy acting, poor quality of the dialogue, and lack of credible chemistry between characters with supposedly deep and close personal relationships, including the romantic. They're simply poorly crafted movies, with the exception of a lot of the VFX (for their time).

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    So, we all gonna keep on ignoring how Rogue One went and made communication possible while in hyperspace?

    Or am I the only one who still cringes a little bit when that part happens?

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  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    So, we all gonna keep on ignoring how Rogue One went and made communication possible while in hyperspace?

    Or am I the only one who still cringes a little bit when that part happens?

    Was that ever a constraint in the OT or PT? I had thought those (and the EU stuff I read) were mostly silent on.

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  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    I didn’t even know it wasn’t something they could do.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I swear they communicate in hyperspace all the time in rebels?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    I take it back, TFA did it first.

    Everything in the OT implied you were isolated while in hyperspace. Hence the Rebel Fleet jumping and hoping Han and his team have taken care of the shield generator.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I think that was more Han's team didn't have a way of communicating beyond like locally? I don't recall anyone saying anything about not being able to communicate in hyperspace

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • monkeykinsmonkeykins Registered User regular
    So, we all gonna keep on ignoring how Rogue One went and made communication possible while in hyperspace?

    Or am I the only one who still cringes a little bit when that part happens?

    On a scale of 1 to "Heavy Turbolasers are now arcing green blobs because that's what the director wanted" I'd put hyperspace communication at a "Didn't actually notice"

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  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    Legends cloaking technology did not allow for traditional SW communications. Could that be what is causing some confusion? Also, range is a limitation. Obi-wan could not contact the Council directly from Geonosis so he had to relay his message through Anakin on Tatooine.

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  • ChaosHatChaosHat HelloooooooooRegistered User regular
    Senna1 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    The sequels, to me, do a much better job of understanding what made Star Wars great. I know they may not totally hold up if you're looking for reasons to be disappointed with the narrative, but hell, you could do that with most movies including many parts of the OT. (Why would they design the exhaust port like that? How long was Luke training anyways? Etc)

    To me, the fight between Ren and Rey in the snow on Starkiller Base while Poe blows up yet another planet destroying super weapon is like peak Star Wars. Not in that it is the best moment, but if you were to distill what Star Wars is about and give someone who never knew anything about Star Wars a five minute clip to get them on board, that's it.
    I tend to agree with this. I can understand that Lucas had no creative interest in re-hashing the OT when he set off to make the PT, like, that's fine. What's not fine is the cringe-worthy acting, poor quality of the dialogue, and lack of credible chemistry between characters with supposedly deep and close personal relationships, including the romantic. They're simply poorly crafted movies, with the exception of a lot of the VFX (for their time).

    I mean even if you just did a touch up pass on the movies to fix the writing and direction (I don't think the acting is the problem, they're all good in other movies, it has to be direction) but kept the plot and stuff largely intact, I don't think they would be good Star Wars movies. Good movies possibly, but Star Wars isn't really about political intrigue and long conversations between politicians about the future of the Republic (you know, in my opinion) especially not mainline Star Wars films. Could you do a spin off about that stuff? Sure. That could even be good!

    But it doesn't do as good a job at capturing that Star Wars is about big god damn heroes fighting impossible odds with laser swords and space ships against an obvious, overwhelming, super evil villain that doesn't know subtlety.

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  • SixSix Quite worryingly erotic Registered User regular
    I had forgotten about the arcing turbolasers. Thanks for reminding me.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Senna1 wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    The sequels, to me, do a much better job of understanding what made Star Wars great. I know they may not totally hold up if you're looking for reasons to be disappointed with the narrative, but hell, you could do that with most movies including many parts of the OT. (Why would they design the exhaust port like that? How long was Luke training anyways? Etc)

    To me, the fight between Ren and Rey in the snow on Starkiller Base while Poe blows up yet another planet destroying super weapon is like peak Star Wars. Not in that it is the best moment, but if you were to distill what Star Wars is about and give someone who never knew anything about Star Wars a five minute clip to get them on board, that's it.
    I tend to agree with this. I can understand that Lucas had no creative interest in re-hashing the OT when he set off to make the PT, like, that's fine. What's not fine is the cringe-worthy acting, poor quality of the dialogue, and lack of credible chemistry between characters with supposedly deep and close personal relationships, including the romantic. They're simply poorly crafted movies, with the exception of a lot of the VFX (for their time).

    I mean even if you just did a touch up pass on the movies to fix the writing and direction (I don't think the acting is the problem, they're all good in other movies, it has to be direction) but kept the plot and stuff largely intact, I don't think they would be good Star Wars movies. Good movies possibly, but Star Wars isn't really about political intrigue and long conversations between politicians about the future of the Republic (you know, in my opinion) especially not mainline Star Wars films. Could you do a spin off about that stuff? Sure. That could even be good!

    But it doesn't do as good a job at capturing that Star Wars is about big god damn heroes fighting impossible odds with laser swords and space ships against an obvious, overwhelming, super evil villain that doesn't know subtlety.

    I've been doing a bit of digging through the old EU of late, due to passing references in some of the new SWTOR content, and having to do some soul searching / acknowledging / coming to terms with the fact that a lot of it is silly, stupid, and pulp-quality at best. Which goes double for anything by KJA.

    I love these movies, I love this setting, and I've been a fan for a good 40+ years now. And sometimes, parts of it here and there are actually good (IMO). But taken as a whole, my God by the Force...

    (See also: Star Trek, Doctor Who, Marvel, DC, most newspaper comics, and a lot of other long-runners.)

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    (separate post because separate subject, maybe, sort of)

    Just as every Force-sensitive must tread between the dark and the light, so must every fan contend with the impulse to document, explain, create backstory for and/or make bullshit up about every little damn thing down to Corellian bloodstripes and midichlorians and everyone who was in the Mos Eisley cantina that day vs. the urge to brush it all off with "it's not real, none of it's real, it makes no sense because A Space Wizard Did It, that's just how the fairy tale goes, they didn't have any budget / they had too much budget and wanted to show it off, Lucas can't write dialogue/Traviss can't write Jedi/Anderson can't write anything" etc etc.

    IMO, neither the Watsonian nor Doylist approach is always right or always wrong, and most of us tend to favor one or the other depending on the specific subject. (I can get really into the starfighter stuff, while scoffing at the planetology and sneering at the pairings dance or the need to explain the Force scientifically.) There are parts we wave away and parts we dive deep into the nerdery on. I think it's important to recognize and accept this, even embrace it. If we get too serious and/or up our own arses about the lore, we can lose track of the simple real-world explanations (and implications) and twist ourselves into knots trying to explain or justify stuff that can't be; and if we dissect it too much, we lose track of the fun and wonder and willing suspension of disbelief, and wind up with a pile of cold, inert, tired old tropes.

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  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    GaryO wrote: »
    There was a fan idea I read once that Anakin was basically using the force on Padme to make her fall for him.

    She starts the film off pretty condescending to him. 'ah little ani all grown up', 'you'll always be that little boy to me' + that one time shes talking to Obi-Win and is basically tells Anakin to be quiet because the grown ups are talking.
    Yet only after a couple days of hanging around with creepy Anakin (complete with pro-tyranncy rants and single handedly murdering an village) shes in love with him.
    Sorry but I don't buy it, Anakin went basically full creeper incel mode and mind raped her with the force

    Thats a real bad theory, imo, and I hate it.

    It ruins the core tenant of Anakin's fall. That he actually loved Padme and she loved him and he was willing to do anything to save her. And it ruins Anakin's redemption, that he did it for his son who was the only remaining piece of this woman he truly did love.

    I think the better twist on it is that he manipulated her emotions entirely accidentally and unconsciously, and that's the reason the Jedi avoid relationships outside their order.

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  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    GaryO wrote: »
    There was a fan idea I read once that Anakin was basically using the force on Padme to make her fall for him.

    She starts the film off pretty condescending to him. 'ah little ani all grown up', 'you'll always be that little boy to me' + that one time shes talking to Obi-Win and is basically tells Anakin to be quiet because the grown ups are talking.
    Yet only after a couple days of hanging around with creepy Anakin (complete with pro-tyranncy rants and single handedly murdering an village) shes in love with him.
    Sorry but I don't buy it, Anakin went basically full creeper incel mode and mind raped her with the force

    Thats a real bad theory, imo, and I hate it.

    It ruins the core tenant of Anakin's fall. That he actually loved Padme and she loved him and he was willing to do anything to save her. And it ruins Anakin's redemption, that he did it for his son who was the only remaining piece of this woman he truly did love.

    I think the better twist on it is that he manipulated her emotions entirely accidentally and unconsciously, and that's the reason the Jedi avoid relationships outside their order.

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  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    So, we all gonna keep on ignoring how Rogue One went and made communication possible while in hyperspace?

    Or am I the only one who still cringes a little bit when that part happens?

    Was that ever a constraint in the OT or PT? I had thought those (and the EU stuff I read) were mostly silent on.

    It was never really brought up in the OT or PT, but some elements of the EU ran on the fact that you can't communicate outside of hyperspace while you're in it. Notably, in one of the better books, Wraith Squadron, a plan relied on that fact. The flagship of an ex-Imperial warlord's strike force realized that they were heading into an ambush, so they dropped out of hyperspace--but couldn't warn the rest of the strike force about it.

    I was annoyed by it, myself, but considering the stuff it decanonized was already decanonized years previously, (shrug).

    Shadowen on
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    GaryO wrote: »
    There was a fan idea I read once that Anakin was basically using the force on Padme to make her fall for him.

    She starts the film off pretty condescending to him. 'ah little ani all grown up', 'you'll always be that little boy to me' + that one time shes talking to Obi-Win and is basically tells Anakin to be quiet because the grown ups are talking.
    Yet only after a couple days of hanging around with creepy Anakin (complete with pro-tyranncy rants and single handedly murdering an village) shes in love with him.
    Sorry but I don't buy it, Anakin went basically full creeper incel mode and mind raped her with the force

    Thats a real bad theory, imo, and I hate it.

    It ruins the core tenant of Anakin's fall. That he actually loved Padme and she loved him and he was willing to do anything to save her. And it ruins Anakin's redemption, that he did it for his son who was the only remaining piece of this woman he truly did love.

    I think the better twist on it is that he manipulated her emotions entirely accidentally and unconsciously, and that's the reason the Jedi avoid relationships outside their order.

    No. Attachments lead to feelings. Love.

    And then fear to lose that loved one. Jealousy to when that loved one pays attention to another. Anger when that loved one betrays you. Sadness when that loved one leaves you. All of those feelings lead to the Dark Side. That's why the Jedi avoid it.

    The stupid part is where they ignore all the wonderful things that happen due to love and focus only on the bad stuff. Clearly, whoever wrote those Jedi texts all those thousands of years ago was in the middle of a bad breakup.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Avoiding attachment works just fine, if it's part of walling yourself off from the world completely, because it's full of distractions and/or sin - i.e., the monastic life.

    Trying to be in the world, taking an active role and having regular contact with other people, while not really being part of it is, IMO, a recipe for inevitable disaster. Only question is how long.

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  • tolragtolrag Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    I take it back, TFA did it first.

    Everything in the OT implied you were isolated while in hyperspace. Hence the Rebel Fleet jumping and hoping Han and his team have taken care of the shield generator.

    That’s a lot more of an assumption on your part than anything implied in the movies (Like 90% on your end).

    Honestly, if a hard defined technology set is what you want this isn’t the franchise you’re looking for.

    tolrag on
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    No popular movie series I can think of goes for even internal consistency, nevermind hard sci fi. If you want that, you need to look further afield.

    Star Wars in particular is very space fantasy.

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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Eh.. Star Wars had always been pretty good about internal consistency. Sure there are fluctuations here and there, but for the most part the rules that have been established are followed.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Pretty much any decent media series watches internal consistency, because that's what gets people to invest in the setting over the long term. If you start changing random rules just to suit a writer's random ideas, then the quality falls apart. And scifi media in particular has to be even more careful, because the people consuming that media tend to actually pay attention to the details and call shows out on mistakes.

    Even something as campy as, say, Stargate SG-1 had a pile of rules governing the setting and breaking those rules meant something had to happen within the setting to change the rules. Internal consistency is one of the single most important factors for any decent scifi.

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  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    It’s funny because I think overall Star Wars’ main goal is to capture the magic of adventure.

    Internal logic helps provide structure, but overall it’s mainly a contrivance to establish stakes and justify consequences.

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  • tyrannustyrannus Registered User regular
    sometimes the audience can smell contrivances and bullshit and you get dumb shit like gravity-based bombers in space and turbo laser's that can now no longer shoot small ships

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    tyrannus wrote: »
    sometimes the audience can smell contrivances and bullshit and you get dumb shit like gravity-based bombers in space and turbo laser's that can now no longer shoot small ships

    But

    1) gravity does work in space
    2) the bombers were not gravity based

    And 3) turbo lasers being no good against small ships is a salient plot point from the very first fucking movie!

    Officer: “We count 30 ships lord Vader, but theyre so small theyre avoiding our turbo lasers”
    Vader: “we will have destroy them ship to ship, get the crews to their fighters”

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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    The turbo laser thing people talk about made zero impression on me but the bombers in TLJ bugged me immediately sitting in the theater.

    Honestly the hyperspace kamikaze was too awesome looking for me to think about much when I first saw it, it was more a classic 'fridge logic' thing. Not ideal, but not...the bombers.

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