A lot of episodes from this point forward are kind of unknowns to me because this is about where I always fell off on the rewatch. It never felt to me like DS9 ever hit the high of this six-parter again.
That's a great episode. But man, they did Denise Crosby dirty
In that episode? They brought her back and have get a staring role.
I mean, they sorta teased that they were going to, but when they did bring her back it was as the product of rape and she was only there for a flash, when she really could have been a continued villain in the vein of Dukat.
eh TNG just wasn't that kind of show, I think they did an amazing job with her, with yesterday's enterprise, and with all the Sela stuff.
Hell, Tomalak, which was probably the biggest baddest TNG Romulan villain, and one that people remember, was only in the show for 4 episodes.
Yeah, it's amazing how little Tomalak shows up. Hell, even Sela is only in a few episodes and most of them kinda suck.
There is ultimately not much interesting about the character beyond the shock value.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
In other news, this is cool. I haven't actually watched any Discovery yet, but hearing all of the themes together really does make it seem like Discovery has one of the better themes in recent years.
That reminds me of another thing I didn't like about Picard: the music sucked imo.
I understand the stance and this completely subjective, but I think the Picard music does the job it's intended for - it's telling you that this is a contemplation of a specific character, the focus is not adventuring but internal. Maybe that's damning by faint praise, I know it's not music I would choose, but I still think it works for the series. It's not like the Enterprise theme where I feel like they failed in every conceivable way, both in preparing the audience for the story and in just writing something compelling.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
In other news, this is cool. I haven't actually watched any Discovery yet, but hearing all of the themes together really does make it seem like Discovery has one of the better themes in recent years.
That reminds me of another thing I didn't like about Picard: the music sucked imo.
I understand the stance and this completely subjective, but I think the Picard music does the job it's intended for - it's telling you that this is a contemplation of a specific character, the focus is not adventuring but internal. Maybe that's damning by faint praise, I know it's not music I would choose, but I still think it works for the series. It's not like the Enterprise theme where I feel like they failed in every conceivable way, both in preparing the audience for the story and in just writing something compelling.
I don't really think Picard delivers on that idea any better then Enterprise did on it's "origins of the Federation" idea.
Plus Enterprise's theme was better. The montage plus the lyrics is actually good at conveying what it's trying to do.
shryke on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
In other news, this is cool. I haven't actually watched any Discovery yet, but hearing all of the themes together really does make it seem like Discovery has one of the better themes in recent years.
That reminds me of another thing I didn't like about Picard: the music sucked imo.
I understand the stance and this completely subjective, but I think the Picard music does the job it's intended for - it's telling you that this is a contemplation of a specific character, the focus is not adventuring but internal. Maybe that's damning by faint praise, I know it's not music I would choose, but I still think it works for the series. It's not like the Enterprise theme where I feel like they failed in every conceivable way, both in preparing the audience for the story and in just writing something compelling.
I don't really think Picard delivers on that idea any better then Enterprise did on it's "origins of the Federation" idea.
Plus Enterprise's theme was better. The montage plus the lyrics is actually good at conveying what it's trying to do.
I'm speaking musically, not necessarily with the execution of the show itself nor a discussion of any of the visuals. I think the Picard theme absolutely delivers on the theme "this is a contemplation" and the Enterprise theme does not deliver on the theme of "we're explorers, the origination of a federation that will span galaxies."
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
In other news, this is cool. I haven't actually watched any Discovery yet, but hearing all of the themes together really does make it seem like Discovery has one of the better themes in recent years.
That reminds me of another thing I didn't like about Picard: the music sucked imo.
I understand the stance and this completely subjective, but I think the Picard music does the job it's intended for - it's telling you that this is a contemplation of a specific character, the focus is not adventuring but internal. Maybe that's damning by faint praise, I know it's not music I would choose, but I still think it works for the series. It's not like the Enterprise theme where I feel like they failed in every conceivable way, both in preparing the audience for the story and in just writing something compelling.
I don't really think Picard delivers on that idea any better then Enterprise did on it's "origins of the Federation" idea.
Plus Enterprise's theme was better. The montage plus the lyrics is actually good at conveying what it's trying to do.
I'm speaking musically, not necessarily with the execution of the show itself nor a discussion of any of the visuals. I think the Picard theme absolutely delivers on the theme "this is a contemplation" and the Enterprise theme does not deliver on the theme of "we're explorers, the origination of a federation that will span galaxies."
That's not what Enterprise's opening is trying to say though. The theme is human exploration across the ages. To connect this show to a long series of great explorers pushing the human race forward to explore new places and learn new things. And that this movement is based in the enduring power of the human spirit. It's speaking pretty directly to the ideas that underlie Star Trek's view of space exploration.
A lot of episodes from this point forward are kind of unknowns to me because this is about where I always fell off on the rewatch. It never felt to me like DS9 ever hit the high of this six-parter again.
On my latest rewatch, 2/3rd/s of season 7 is basically filler. There's some great episodes here and there in that block, but a lot of duds as well.
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MsAnthropyThe Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the RhythmThe City of FlowersRegistered Userregular
A lot of episodes from this point forward are kind of unknowns to me because this is about where I always fell off on the rewatch. It never felt to me like DS9 ever hit the high of this six-parter again.
On my latest rewatch, 2/3rd/s of season 7 is basically filler. There's some great episodes here and there in that block, but a lot of duds as well.
It's really obvious the show starts running out of steam in S6 and then just coasts to the finale. Still plenty of good episodes but the overall quality begins to dip as theirs many more just ok entries.
Yeah, having just watched season one again, they needed to dump Yar or Worf. Worf was token as hell prior to Yar dying. Yar was fine, but with both of them on at the same time....
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CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
That's a great episode. But man, they did Denise Crosby dirty
In that episode? They brought her back and have get a staring role.
I mean, they sorta teased that they were going to, but when they did bring her back it was as the product of rape and she was only there for a flash, when she really could have been a continued villain in the vein of Dukat.
eh TNG just wasn't that kind of show, I think they did an amazing job with her, with yesterday's enterprise, and with all the Sela stuff.
Hell, Tomalak, which was probably the biggest baddest TNG Romulan villain, and one that people remember, was only in the show for 4 episodes.
Indeed. TNG's biggest recurring "villains" were Q and Lwaxana Troi, and the former was in just 8 episodes and the latter in 6, and both were in the show since Season 1, which means they only appeared once per season on average. The Borg were in 4 episodes, Lore was in 3 episodes, that Ferengi who wants revenge on Picard for killing his son was in 2 episodes... TNG just wasn't big on recurring antagonists.
So Yar/Sela getting 3 episodes is par for the course. If you count that one is one of the best TNG episodes ever and the other two are two-parters, I'd say that puts her in the same league as the Borg as a recurring "villain".
Richy on
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
In other news, this is cool. I haven't actually watched any Discovery yet, but hearing all of the themes together really does make it seem like Discovery has one of the better themes in recent years.
That reminds me of another thing I didn't like about Picard: the music sucked imo.
I understand the stance and this completely subjective, but I think the Picard music does the job it's intended for - it's telling you that this is a contemplation of a specific character, the focus is not adventuring but internal. Maybe that's damning by faint praise, I know it's not music I would choose, but I still think it works for the series. It's not like the Enterprise theme where I feel like they failed in every conceivable way, both in preparing the audience for the story and in just writing something compelling.
I don't really think Picard delivers on that idea any better then Enterprise did on it's "origins of the Federation" idea.
Plus Enterprise's theme was better. The montage plus the lyrics is actually good at conveying what it's trying to do.
I'm speaking musically, not necessarily with the execution of the show itself nor a discussion of any of the visuals. I think the Picard theme absolutely delivers on the theme "this is a contemplation" and the Enterprise theme does not deliver on the theme of "we're explorers, the origination of a federation that will span galaxies."
That's not what Enterprise's opening is trying to say though. The theme is human exploration across the ages. To connect this show to a long series of great explorers pushing the human race forward to explore new places and learn new things. And that this movement is based in the enduring power of the human spirit. It's speaking pretty directly to the ideas that underlie Star Trek's view of space exploration.
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Lwaxana Troi more like Karen Troi amirite
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Sela was also Denise Crosby's idea, reportedly. Like she specifically was like "maybe Tasha survives and has a child with a Romulan." This, for once, was not a writer going COOL! RAPE!
Sela was also Denise Crosby's idea, reportedly. Like she specifically was like "maybe Tasha survives and has a child with a Romulan." This, for once, was not a writer going COOL! RAPE!
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I don't recall it being rape. I recall Sela saying Tasha and her father were in love and in a relationship. Granted Tasha was a prisoner and he was the warden, so there's an iffy power relationship there, but I never got the feeling Tasha was forced into this relationship. She could have refused and been just another prisoner. Later she tried to take Sela and escape, which casts a shadow on the whole relationship, but actually it would mean she was the one lying about her feelings and manipulating the warden, which makes her the bad agent in this scenario.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
TNG theme is the best. Enterprise theme is the worst. I really like Voyager's theme; too bad Voyager is in the same flaming dumpster as Enterprise, though.
A Karen has a feeling of entitlement. Lwaxana is truly entitled. She is a daughter of the Fifth House, holder of the Sacred Chalice of Rixx, and heir to the Holy Rings of Betazed. Show some respect!
+16
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SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
I've always liked the version with Archer's Theme instead (no not that Archer!)
Sela was also Denise Crosby's idea, reportedly. Like she specifically was like "maybe Tasha survives and has a child with a Romulan." This, for once, was not a writer going COOL! RAPE!
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I don't recall it being rape. I recall Sela saying Tasha and her father were in love and in a relationship. Granted Tasha was a prisoner and he was the warden, so there's an iffy power relationship there, but I never got the feeling Tasha was forced into this relationship. She could have refused and been just another prisoner. Later she tried to take Sela and escape, which casts a shadow on the whole relationship, but actually it would mean she was the one lying about her feelings and manipulating the warden, which makes her the bad agent in this scenario.
What? No. Lying to stay alive doesn't mean that she's secretly the manipulator/rapist. It means she's in a textbook rape scenario where she has to lie to stay alive.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Sela was also Denise Crosby's idea, reportedly. Like she specifically was like "maybe Tasha survives and has a child with a Romulan." This, for once, was not a writer going COOL! RAPE!
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I don't recall it being rape. I recall Sela saying Tasha and her father were in love and in a relationship. Granted Tasha was a prisoner and he was the warden, so there's an iffy power relationship there, but I never got the feeling Tasha was forced into this relationship. She could have refused and been just another prisoner. Later she tried to take Sela and escape, which casts a shadow on the whole relationship, but actually it would mean she was the one lying about her feelings and manipulating the warden, which makes her the bad agent in this scenario.
What? No. Lying to stay alive doesn't mean that she's secretly the manipulator/rapist. It means she's in a textbook rape scenario where she has to lie to stay alive.
I went to Memory Alpha to make sure I wasn't remembering it wrong and, yeah. The story Sela tells is that Yar is among a few people captured. They are all tortured and slatted for execution but a Romulan commander of some sort takes a liking to her and says he'll spare the prisoner's lives if she become his consort. She agrees, Sela is born. Yar tries to escape when Sela is young but Sela calls the guards on her and she is executed. So, like, not a good situation.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
This is the real, best version of the Enterprise opening.
Sela was also Denise Crosby's idea, reportedly. Like she specifically was like "maybe Tasha survives and has a child with a Romulan." This, for once, was not a writer going COOL! RAPE!
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I don't recall it being rape. I recall Sela saying Tasha and her father were in love and in a relationship. Granted Tasha was a prisoner and he was the warden, so there's an iffy power relationship there, but I never got the feeling Tasha was forced into this relationship. She could have refused and been just another prisoner. Later she tried to take Sela and escape, which casts a shadow on the whole relationship, but actually it would mean she was the one lying about her feelings and manipulating the warden, which makes her the bad agent in this scenario.
What? No. Lying to stay alive doesn't mean that she's secretly the manipulator/rapist. It means she's in a textbook rape scenario where she has to lie to stay alive.
I went to Memory Alpha to make sure I wasn't remembering it wrong and, yeah. The story Sela tells is that Yar is among a few people captured. They are all tortured and slatted for execution but a Romulan commander of some sort takes a liking to her and says he'll spare the prisoner's lives if she become his consort. She agrees, Sela is born. Yar tries to escape when Sela is young but Sela calls the guards on her and she is executed. So, like, not a good situation.
I double-checked as well, and you're both right, I was badly remembering the episode. It was indeed rape, trading herself to spare the lives of all the prisoners.
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
+3
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
1. TOS: features people singing as if they were theremins which is v cool
2. TNG: on a different day I'd put this one first
Good:
3. VOY: the best part of the whole show
4a. DS9 (original theme): sets the moody-but-not-grimdark tone of the show well
4b. DS9 (updated theme)
5. ENT: cheesy but secretly good
6. Picard: nice
1. TOS: features people singing as if they were theremins which is v cool
2. TNG: on a different day I'd put this one first
Good:
4. VOY: the best part of the whole show
4a. DS9 (original theme): sets the moody-but-not-grimdark tone of the show well
4b. DS9 (updated theme)
6. ENT: cheesy but secretly good
7. Picard: nice
Not good:
7. DISCO: bland, bland, bland
I would rank 4b a lot lower than all but maybe the Disco theme. I love the Deep Space Nine theme but the sped-up remix feels incredibly awkward to my ears. It reminds me of being in marching band when the drum major lost track of the rhythm and suddenly one half of the field is racing through the song.
(I feel this way, though to a way lesser extent, about the TNG theme vs the TMP original - it's too sped up! But I still like it.)
Also, I feel betrayed on a personal level that you of all people didn't include the animated series theme! It's Love Boat-licious!
Captain Kira Nerys of USS Voyager would be an interesting spin.
Oh my god my brain just exploded and man we live in the worst fucking timeline
That could have been so much better, if for no other reason than because Nana Visitor had been doing Trek long enough by that point that she would have had the confidence to smack the writer's room around a bit
Sela was also Denise Crosby's idea, reportedly. Like she specifically was like "maybe Tasha survives and has a child with a Romulan." This, for once, was not a writer going COOL! RAPE!
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I don't recall it being rape. I recall Sela saying Tasha and her father were in love and in a relationship. Granted Tasha was a prisoner and he was the warden, so there's an iffy power relationship there, but I never got the feeling Tasha was forced into this relationship. She could have refused and been just another prisoner. Later she tried to take Sela and escape, which casts a shadow on the whole relationship, but actually it would mean she was the one lying about her feelings and manipulating the warden, which makes her the bad agent in this scenario.
What? No. Lying to stay alive doesn't mean that she's secretly the manipulator/rapist. It means she's in a textbook rape scenario where she has to lie to stay alive.
I went to Memory Alpha to make sure I wasn't remembering it wrong and, yeah. The story Sela tells is that Yar is among a few people captured. They are all tortured and slatted for execution but a Romulan commander of some sort takes a liking to her and says he'll spare the prisoner's lives if she become his consort. She agrees, Sela is born. Yar tries to escape when Sela is young but Sela calls the guards on her and she is executed. So, like, not a good situation.
I double-checked as well, and you're both right, I was badly remembering the episode. It was indeed rape, trading herself to spare the lives of all the prisoners.
You know the worst irony of it? Main-Yar's whole backstory was about spending her childhood avoiding rape gangs... and then alt-Yar's final years end up not that far off from the same kind of life main-Yar escaped as a child.
I'm' glad they didn't go with it, but it sounds like the perfect theme for a 1990s syndicated pirate show in the vein of Hercules.
this. this can't be real right? holy shit I can not fucking get over this. it's like somebody is playing a prank with how it cuts to the fucking WRONG MUSIC OMG. is this some sort of bad SeaQuest Spin off, oh god why.
also hills I'll die on:
Lwaxana Troi is not nearly as bad as people remember
Wesley Crusher is not nearly as bad as people remember
The Enterprise theme was good
That alt TNG theme would work for a few 90s shows. Could easily work with Sea Quest or SG1. Space Precinct popped into my head too but on a listen to that theme it's way more 1980s than I remember.
Aww shit. Now I'm doing a run through the themes of the crazy 90s tv shows I can remember. Vr.5, Earth Final Conflict, Tekwars, Forever Knight. Couldn't find one for Invasion Earth (the one with Maggie O'Niell where aliens invade Scotland - it's so bad. Don't watch it).
TAS was on TV when I was a kid, and I still love much of the music (which also appeared in other Filmation cartoon "adaptions" of live-action properties). I was so happy when it finally got an official release a few years back.
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Waltz soon!
AKA where Dukat's character should have ended.
A lot of episodes from this point forward are kind of unknowns to me because this is about where I always fell off on the rewatch. It never felt to me like DS9 ever hit the high of this six-parter again.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Yeah, it's amazing how little Tomalak shows up. Hell, even Sela is only in a few episodes and most of them kinda suck.
There is ultimately not much interesting about the character beyond the shock value.
I understand the stance and this completely subjective, but I think the Picard music does the job it's intended for - it's telling you that this is a contemplation of a specific character, the focus is not adventuring but internal. Maybe that's damning by faint praise, I know it's not music I would choose, but I still think it works for the series. It's not like the Enterprise theme where I feel like they failed in every conceivable way, both in preparing the audience for the story and in just writing something compelling.
I don't really think Picard delivers on that idea any better then Enterprise did on it's "origins of the Federation" idea.
Plus Enterprise's theme was better. The montage plus the lyrics is actually good at conveying what it's trying to do.
I'm speaking musically, not necessarily with the execution of the show itself nor a discussion of any of the visuals. I think the Picard theme absolutely delivers on the theme "this is a contemplation" and the Enterprise theme does not deliver on the theme of "we're explorers, the origination of a federation that will span galaxies."
That's not what Enterprise's opening is trying to say though. The theme is human exploration across the ages. To connect this show to a long series of great explorers pushing the human race forward to explore new places and learn new things. And that this movement is based in the enduring power of the human spirit. It's speaking pretty directly to the ideas that underlie Star Trek's view of space exploration.
On my latest rewatch, 2/3rd/s of season 7 is basically filler. There's some great episodes here and there in that block, but a lot of duds as well.
Eh, I think if there ever is a reboot they should just skip Yar entirely and have Ensign Ro onboard from the beginning instead.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
It's really obvious the show starts running out of steam in S6 and then just coasts to the finale. Still plenty of good episodes but the overall quality begins to dip as theirs many more just ok entries.
Yar imo was never an interesting character. The show doesn't lose anything after she's gone.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Indeed. TNG's biggest recurring "villains" were Q and Lwaxana Troi, and the former was in just 8 episodes and the latter in 6, and both were in the show since Season 1, which means they only appeared once per season on average. The Borg were in 4 episodes, Lore was in 3 episodes, that Ferengi who wants revenge on Picard for killing his son was in 2 episodes... TNG just wasn't big on recurring antagonists.
So Yar/Sela getting 3 episodes is par for the course. If you count that one is one of the best TNG episodes ever and the other two are two-parters, I'd say that puts her in the same league as the Borg as a recurring "villain".
Time to post this again?
It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I don't recall it being rape. I recall Sela saying Tasha and her father were in love and in a relationship. Granted Tasha was a prisoner and he was the warden, so there's an iffy power relationship there, but I never got the feeling Tasha was forced into this relationship. She could have refused and been just another prisoner. Later she tried to take Sela and escape, which casts a shadow on the whole relationship, but actually it would mean she was the one lying about her feelings and manipulating the warden, which makes her the bad agent in this scenario.
A Karen has a feeling of entitlement. Lwaxana is truly entitled. She is a daughter of the Fifth House, holder of the Sacred Chalice of Rixx, and heir to the Holy Rings of Betazed. Show some respect!
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
What? No. Lying to stay alive doesn't mean that she's secretly the manipulator/rapist. It means she's in a textbook rape scenario where she has to lie to stay alive.
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
I went to Memory Alpha to make sure I wasn't remembering it wrong and, yeah. The story Sela tells is that Yar is among a few people captured. They are all tortured and slatted for execution but a Romulan commander of some sort takes a liking to her and says he'll spare the prisoner's lives if she become his consort. She agrees, Sela is born. Yar tries to escape when Sela is young but Sela calls the guards on her and she is executed. So, like, not a good situation.
I double-checked as well, and you're both right, I was badly remembering the episode. It was indeed rape, trading herself to spare the lives of all the prisoners.
My favorite version of this happens about at 4:45 of this video: https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v893.php
F'real though, how fun would it have been if Voyager had been about a bunch of fuckups just barely making it through repeated catastrophic scenarios?
Especially good:
1. TOS: features people singing as if they were theremins which is v cool
2. TNG: on a different day I'd put this one first
Good:
3. VOY: the best part of the whole show
4a. DS9 (original theme): sets the moody-but-not-grimdark tone of the show well
4b. DS9 (updated theme)
5. ENT: cheesy but secretly good
6. Picard: nice
Not good:
7. DISCO: bland, bland, bland
I would rank 4b a lot lower than all but maybe the Disco theme. I love the Deep Space Nine theme but the sped-up remix feels incredibly awkward to my ears. It reminds me of being in marching band when the drum major lost track of the rhythm and suddenly one half of the field is racing through the song.
(I feel this way, though to a way lesser extent, about the TNG theme vs the TMP original - it's too sped up! But I still like it.)
Also, I feel betrayed on a personal level that you of all people didn't include the animated series theme! It's Love Boat-licious!
Also also also, how about this alternate TNG theme composed by Dennis McCarthy before they settled on the TMP theme?
I'm' glad they didn't go with it, but it sounds like the perfect theme for a 1990s syndicated pirate show in the vein of Hercules.
Oh my god my brain just exploded and man we live in the worst fucking timeline
That could have been so much better, if for no other reason than because Nana Visitor had been doing Trek long enough by that point that she would have had the confidence to smack the writer's room around a bit
You know the worst irony of it? Main-Yar's whole backstory was about spending her childhood avoiding rape gangs... and then alt-Yar's final years end up not that far off from the same kind of life main-Yar escaped as a child.
It's not my fault I was passing through a temporal anomaly
other thoughts from this page of posts:
HOW DID NOBODY POST THIS?
best Enterprise opening
also hills I'll die on:
Lwaxana Troi is not nearly as bad as people remember
Wesley Crusher is not nearly as bad as people remember
The Enterprise theme was good
Aww shit. Now I'm doing a run through the themes of the crazy 90s tv shows I can remember. Vr.5, Earth Final Conflict, Tekwars, Forever Knight. Couldn't find one for Invasion Earth (the one with Maggie O'Niell where aliens invade Scotland - it's so bad. Don't watch it).
edit: Ah I'm not alone in thinking of SQ:DSV.