The [Impeachment] Trial of the 45th President of the United States Begins 2020/01/21

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Fawst wrote: »
    I haven't seen sources on who those senators are, so I don't think it's the usual names we've already heard from (who have since gone on to say "nah, gotcha!"). The info I saw on twitter wasn't naming names.

    Well, one is Collins so it's not a big stretch to think Murkowski and Romney are involved, and that the end result will be the same as ever, with a lot of very public hand-wringing before they fall in to vote the party line.

    Man Romney just slid into Flakes role in the Senate before the seat could get cold.

    That is totally fucking bonkers. What was he even doing in the Ukraine and why does it seem like the entire GOP is taking money from Ukraine and Russia?!

    It's really just Russia and Russia by way of Ukraine.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Nothing to see here

  • VeagleVeagle Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    So with Rudy clarifying he was a personal lawyer, and not representing Trump as POTUS, all the claims of executive privilege to out the window, right? And can't claim it was standard diplomacy either.

    Although I assume the new argument will just be a president can't be impeached for crimes done on personal time.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    I’m still trying to find a way to shorthand that.

    Russia and Ukraine is involved, but not the Ukrainian government proper. Instead it is the part of Ukraine that’s run by gangsters that love being bribed by Putin. After Ukraine ousted their previous administration, that was ran by a corrupt Putin puppet, Zelenskyy won his election on an anticorruption campaign. Also, since the invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea, Russia has been in a hot war with them. Ukraine is stuck between Russian forces sent by Putin, Ukrainian gangsters paid by Putin, and the Trump administration also paid by Putin.

    So I decided that instead of saying, “Russia and Ukraine, but...“

    I’m just gonna call it “Putin” to shorthand all of that.

    I considered calling it the “FuckingAssholeZone,” but nicknames are against the rules.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I just can't get over how it used to be that the pinko Democrats were (supposedly) the Russian agents/sympathizers/dupes.
    This must be what it was like to live through the flip of the "Southern Strategy."

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Rep. Don Boyers's communications person has a thread of the many times Trump and Mr. Hyde had a photo together:

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    If this new evidence can’t be used in the senate trial they should use it to start another impeachment process in the house. It’s unbelievably incriminating for the entire party and administration

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    Mike Flynn has continued to have terrible lawyers.

    Reuters reporter:

    Mike Flynn is tripling-down on a legal strategy that has so far not worked particularly well for him. His lawyers have asked a judge to allow him to withdraw his guilty plea, weeks before he was scheduled to be sentenced.
    Mike Flynn's lawyers say in their latest filing that "Michael T. Flynn is innocent."

    This alone probably blows up his scheduled sentencing. Judge Sullivan has said before that the court can't accept a guilty plea from someone who says he's innocent.
    Anyway, the Justice Department's case against Mike Flynn -- once a relatively straightforward false-statements case in which he *twice* pleaded guilty and was looking at probation -- is going to get even more complicated.
    B
    Interestingly, Flynn's motion to withdraw his plea never mentions the legal standard for doing that. Under Fed. R. Crim. P. 11(d)(2)(A), he needs a "fair and just reason," which is a higher bar than it sounds. Withdrawals - especially last-minute ones - are "disfavored" in D.C.

    Also, Flynn's motion to withdraw his guilty plea flatly asserts his innocence, but doesn't explain - at all - why he *twice* pleaded guilty, and declared in open court that he was.
    Maybe he should declare himself a sovereign citizen.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    What? You can absolutely accept a guilty plea from someone who maintains their innocence. We have a whole thing for that. It's called an Alford plea.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    Is he in jail while this is happening

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  • notyanotya Registered User regular
    Did he find out he wasn't going to get a pardon?

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    It shows how far down we've come that we had elements of our own government almost planning a hit on our own ambassador because she wasn't Trumpy enough. Like what the fuck?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular


    Reuters reporter

    The sheer audacity.

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    These goons are all shameless grifters they will find their way into any space available to them for the grift

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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular
    What? You can absolutely accept a guilty plea from someone who maintains their innocence. We have a whole thing for that. It's called an Alford plea.

    IIRC accepting responsibility and assisting the government were part of his plea agreement. I'd guess that's what they're ham-handedly referring to.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 15
    It is utterly galling that the successful evil that is inculcated within us is so utterly pathetic

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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    It is utterly galling that the successful evil that is inculcated within us is so utterly pathetic

    'The banality of evil' ain't just a river in Egypt.

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    I Zimbra wrote: »

    Which kind of tells you all you need to know about how valid they think this strategy is. Get whatever money you still can, there'll be some other conservative cause to leech off of soon enough.

    I really wish the Bar would finally step in and disbar one of these fuckers -when they're out there publicly throwing shit at the wall in major and very public cases, and pleading for money in the footnotes like it's all some kind of big joke...that's gotta go against any number of ethics rules and all that boilerplate every profession has about duty to your client and maintaining the credibility of the profession.

    Ah, also the twitter thread goes on to point out that the government has gone to great lengths to point out what bottom feeding jerkoffs Flynn's new counsel are and how they are not serving his best interests. I didn't know he had hired on new counsel. I guess you get what you pay for Flynn.

    Edit: His new lawyer is Sidney Powell, who frequents FOX news and conservative media, has an awful book out, and is clearly just using the Flynn case to further her own ambitions. (And book sales if her twitter posts are any indication)

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Someone needs to disbar Barr

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I Zimbra wrote: »
    What? You can absolutely accept a guilty plea from someone who maintains their innocence. We have a whole thing for that. It's called an Alford plea.

    IIRC accepting responsibility and assisting the government were part of his plea agreement. I'd guess that's what they're ham-handedly referring to.

    Yeah I'm just commenting on the note that they 'can't accept a guilty plea from an innocent man.' They can! They absolutely can!

    They just can't accept a guilty plea which says "I totally did the crime, guv" while the guy is professing innocence.

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  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    What is the legal meaning of entering a "guilty" plea if you maintain your innocence? Why aren't you entering a plea of "not guilty?" (Crim was not my strong suit)

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    What is the legal meaning of entering a "guilty" plea if you maintain your innocence? Why aren't you entering a plea of "not guilty?" (Crim was not my strong suit)

    You don't want to contest the charge for whatever reason. There are a bunch of them.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    If you plead guilty, there's no trial right? Like, it proceeds directly to sentencing?

  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Richland, WARegistered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    What is the legal meaning of entering a "guilty" plea if you maintain your innocence? Why aren't you entering a plea of "not guilty?" (Crim was not my strong suit)

    Prosecutors cut deals all the time for guilty pleas because it means they don't have to go to trial, which is a whole bunch of time, work, and money. Even if you're not guilty, lots of people get pressured into taking it. That's probably not the case here, tho.

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  • LabelLabel Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    The question to me is not "has the Republican party sold itself to Russian mobsters?" It seems relatively clear, what with Maria Butina and Alexander Torshin's involvement with the NRA, that at least some of that is going on.

    The question for me is, how big is the problem? How many people in elected office and non-elected party apparatus? And how long has this been going on?

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    What is the legal meaning of entering a "guilty" plea if you maintain your innocence? Why aren't you entering a plea of "not guilty?" (Crim was not my strong suit)

    For one, it preserves a lot of shit for appeal. You are essentially saying "Look, I concede that the State has a strong case against me and I have weighed the odds and am entering this deal as a way of running the numbers. I still did not actually do the crime, just that the liklihood of me getting a guilty plea is not worth risking a trial over."

    Just as a for instance, let's say that you and I are both arrested for the same crime. You enter a guilty plea with the State and get 10 years, I go with an Alford plea and get 20.

    Well if new exonerating evidence pops up then I can appeal the decision. You, having admitted to actually doing the crime, can not.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    MrMonroe wrote: »
    What is the legal meaning of entering a "guilty" plea if you maintain your innocence? Why aren't you entering a plea of "not guilty?" (Crim was not my strong suit)

    For one, it preserves a lot of shit for appeal. You are essentially saying "Look, I concede that the State has a strong case against me and I have weighed the odds and am entering this deal as a way of running the numbers. I still did not actually do the crime, just that the liklihood of me getting a guilty plea is not worth risking a trial over."

    Just as a for instance, let's say that you and I are both arrested for the same crime. You enter a guilty plea with the State and get 10 years, I go with an Alford plea and get 20.

    Well if new exonerating evidence pops up then I can appeal the decision. You, having admitted to actually doing the crime, can not.

    Which is bullshit, but that's a separate issue.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    If you plead guilty, there's no trial right? Like, it proceeds directly to sentencing?

    Uh, not quite.

    It's also a terribly, terribly bad idea to back out of a guilty plea that you have already entered.

    Because the State can use your confession against you at trial and have no requirement to hold up their bargain at that point.

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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    The National political reporter for NBC News contacted Robert Hyde to ask him why he was organising several Ukrainians to surveil a United States Ambassador, who was then yanked from her post due to an unspecified threat against her. Hyde’s response is... quite Trumpian.

    NEWS - Robert Hyde reacts

    He tells me tonight via text message:

    “How low can liddle Adam Bull Schiff go. To take some texts my buddy’s and I wrote while we had a few drinks to some dweeb I met a few times.... Bull Schiff is a desperate turd.”

    So... THAT happened.


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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Look, who hasn't drunk texted messages suggesting they can kill someone or were stalking someone

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    Ok so you can conspire against your own sitting ambassador as long as you do it drunk and with “some dweeb”

    Is this our world now? Going forward will the defense for the indefensible now be “shut up meg!” And farting in people’s faces?

    Prohass on
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  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Trump's insult style is weird and sad enough by itself, but when other people attempt to imitate it in sincerity it's even weirder and sadder.

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  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud bear with us as we do some "rebranding" Registered User regular
    Desperate turd is kind of an amazing and never used before phrase in politics I think.

  • Descendant XDescendant X Hank Facepunch Registered User regular
    There’s a picture of Hyde at the top of this very page.

    He looks exactly like the type of sad wiener who would emulate Trump in an attempt to curry some form of favour.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    There’s a picture of Hyde at the top of this very page.

    He looks exactly like the type of sad wiener who would emulate Trump in an attempt to curry some form of favour.

    He looks like everyone's least favorite Murray brother.

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  • RhahRhah Registered User regular
    “Ultimately she is still alive. No big deal” -GOP defense probably

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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Look, who hasn't drunk texted messages suggesting they can kill someone or were stalking someone
    ...non stop for seven days straight


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  • AtomikaAtomika The Trepidatious Adventures of Gerardo the Wizard Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    I gotta stop looking at this thread. It’s all too stupid.

    If this were part of some Hydraesque plot to stage a quiet coup, or a political effort on the part of some dangerous fringe, I’d feel . . . I dunno. Obligated to action? Some kind of motivator, at least. I’m not sure.

    But basically this is the world’s worst spies, shills, and bootlickers breaking all the laws they have to just so they can buy more monogrammed gold toilets. The whole fucking thing is about dick-waving over money and braggadocio.


    Jesus

    Atomika on
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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Well the (surprisingly good and in depth) news outlet Mother Jones are reporting that, in the case of Robert Hyde, the reason he was crazy enough to throw himself into the middle of this stuff is that he actually is genuinely mentally ill. Or at the very least once got so high at a Trump resort that he appeared to be.

    SCOOP: Robert F. Hyde, the new mystery player in the Ukraine scandal, was taken into police custody at a Trump resort last year, claiming the Secret Service & a hit man were after him. He was then involuntarily confined in a medical facility.

    David is the DC bureau chief of Mother Jones, and an MSNBC analyst.

    It doesn’t absolve him of his crimes in the least, and I’ve a hell of a lot more sympathy for Yovanovitch who appears to have been in actual physical danger, but if Hyde got mixed up in all this crap because he’s unstable that is pretty damn sad.


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  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud bear with us as we do some "rebranding" Registered User regular
    People who are mentally ill aren't excused from their behaviors and the majority of people with mental illness don't cause harm to others or stalk people or collude with foreign agents.

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