The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
I think it is important that we also Do The Right Thing which means not letting him get away with many of his other crimes. If we could realistically get the caucus to support it then it should be in there.
This can also affect messaging, because if it wasn't in the articles of impeachment he was probably innocent of it, right? That was basically how the Mueller report was received by large parts of the media / public.
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Do the Right Thing means shoring up the government and enacting laws and firewalls to prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future.
I want to see Trump indicted. I want to see him in jail for the laws he broke. That can come if there is political will.
But we need to make it 100% clear that no one is above the law. And the law needs to reflect that.
One thing I just learned about the upcoming Senate trial was how the rules are formed.
I thought the rules required 60 votes, but in actuality it’s just a simple majority. Obviously the GOP has control of the Senate and McConnell will do his utmost to protect Trump, but it does give the Senate Dems more power in setting the rules than I initially thought. There’s a lot of GOP Senators up for re-election next year and a few of them are feeling heat from enabling Trump by things like appointing Kavanaugh and the like, so they have interest in ensuring the trial has at least the perception of holding Trump to task.
There’s a decent chance the Senate trial won’t be a complete clown show. At least, not as clown show as I originally thought.
They can afford three defections and still have a majority enough to make it a clown show. I highly doubt that there are four R senators willing to risk Trump and the party's wrath by siding with the Democrats on anything at all. I have serious doubts there will even be a single one.
That’s probably how it’ll play out.
But McConnell has been getting hit pretty hard in Kentucky the past year and will want the trial to at least have the appearance of not being a clown show, which will give Senate Dems some wiggle room on negotiating the rules.
It’ll still be bad, just not as bad as I originally thought.
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There's nothing stopping them from potentially getting the financial records and then starting up new articles of impeachment based on that. Fits with the media too. BREAKING NEWS: Impeached president has massive financial corruption unearthed!
One thing I just learned about the upcoming Senate trial was how the rules are formed.
I thought the rules required 60 votes, but in actuality it’s just a simple majority. Obviously the GOP has control of the Senate and McConnell will do his utmost to protect Trump, but it does give the Senate Dems more power in setting the rules than I initially thought. There’s a lot of GOP Senators up for re-election next year and a few of them are feeling heat from enabling Trump by things like appointing Kavanaugh and the like, so they have interest in ensuring the trial has at least the perception of holding Trump to task.
There’s a decent chance the Senate trial won’t be a complete clown show. At least, not as clown show as I originally thought.
They can afford three defections and still have a majority enough to make it a clown show. I highly doubt that there are four R senators willing to risk Trump and the party's wrath by siding with the Democrats on anything at all. I have serious doubts there will even be a single one.
That’s probably how it’ll play out.
But McConnell has been getting hit pretty hard in Kentucky the past year and will want the trial to at least have the appearance of not being a clown show, which will give Senate Dems some wiggle room on negotiating the rules.
It’ll still be bad, just not as bad as I originally thought.
I don't see why he would want that appearance. It's never been a concern of his before. It's much 'better' (at least as far as he and Trump are concerned) if they go 100% on the attack and use every single dirty trick and procedural bit of fuckery to fuck things up as possible. That's what his base loves. Not a fair fight. Not appearing impartial. Making the other side angry. It's what they've always done. It's what they doubled down on when they're in trouble. It's what they do when they have all the cards. The playbook's not about to change just for this.
The only question in my mind is whether they rush through it, yelling about how it's a sham process while using it to smear Biden, or delay and deflect enough so they can go "Welp, too close to the election, we'll let the people decide," which gives them a perfect out either way.
Yep. At best they're hoping they can time proof dumps of more crimes during the Senate trial to make life that much harder for Republicans, perhaps a Hail Mary for the Nixon tapes effect.
More likely it's stuff to be used in 2020 to further depress R turnout* and try desperately to swing the Senate. Which, really, is what this whole process is about.
* I'd add bolster D turnout, but really I don't think Dem enthusiasm is going to be a problem in 2020 regardless of the nominee.
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Hmm, if they do find something particularly juicy in the financial docs, can they told another charge or two into the trial?
But I don't mind, as long as there's a bed beneath the stars that shine,
I'll be fine, just give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it.
I'd put some of the blame on the media as usual. And general public apathy. If Trump shot someone the story wouldn't stay in the news past a couple days.
The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
I'm still not even getting my hopes up that the SCOTUS will even rule against Trump on his financial records. Not saying it can't/won't happen, but I'll be pleasantly surprised. And without those I don't think it would behoove Dems to make a point of them during the impeachment hearings, unless they want to cite the court battle itself as an act of 'obstruction of Congress'
The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
The messaging would be stronger if Pelosi hadn't literally scheduled showing support for Trump's trade deals (passing them would hand him a huge win he could campaign on) immediately after announcement of the articles of impeachment.
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
I think it is important that we also Do The Right Thing which means not letting him get away with many of his other crimes. If we could realistically get the caucus to support it then it should be in there.
This can also affect messaging, because if it wasn't in the articles of impeachment he was probably innocent of it, right? That was basically how the Mueller report was received by large parts of the media / public.
It's simpler than that.
If you're a Republican, Trump is innocent. If you're a Democrat, he's guilty.
That's it. That is the state of politics now.
We spend the next year making as much of a talking point as we can, and resign ourselves to the fact that, in the end, 2020 will still probably come down to health care and taxes. If we're lucky, we get a mini recession in October that revolves itself by January.
Basically, we trick the electorate into accidentally making the right choice.
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When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
the right time is after they include the rest of his crimes
emoluments and obstruction of justice chief among them
The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
I think it is important that we also Do The Right Thing which means not letting him get away with many of his other crimes. If we could realistically get the caucus to support it then it should be in there.
This can also affect messaging, because if it wasn't in the articles of impeachment he was probably innocent of it, right? That was basically how the Mueller report was received by large parts of the media / public.
It's simpler than that.
If you're a Republican, Trump is innocent. If you're a Democrat, he's guilty.
That's it. That is the state of politics now.
We spend the next year making as much of a talking point as we can, and resign ourselves to the fact that, in the end, 2020 will still probably come down to health care and taxes. If we're lucky, we get a mini recession in October that revolves itself by January.
Basically, we trick the electorate into accidentally making the right choice.
I've started thinking that the part of 1984 Orwell got wrong was the idea that the party needs any coercive apparatus. Tribalism and media ranging from complicit to Fox already seems to be taking care of it.
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Weren’t people also gnashing their teeth a couple months back that this process wasn’t being done quickly enough?
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Weren’t people also gnashing their teeth a couple months back that this process wasn’t being done quickly enough?
Yes, people can have different opinions of how fast the process should go. This kind of comment always strikes me as disingenuous because it implies its the same people.
Yeah let's have a big drawn out trial covering multiple disparate unconnected events that requires Senate attendance so that Warren and sanders can't fuckin campaign that's a good fucking plan. A bunch of confusing testimony about a bunch of different crimes won't muddy the waters and make everyone confused and exhausted to the point they just don't care about it anymore, especially given the fact that the Senate is pretty much no matter what going to vote against removal and everyone knows that's how it ends.
The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
The messaging would be stronger if Pelosi hadn't literally scheduled showing support for Trump's trade deals (passing them would hand him a huge win he could campaign on) immediately after announcement of the articles of impeachment.
While I don’t like giving Trump a “win”, this does cut off any bitching that the House is focused on impeachment and not doing anything else.
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Weren’t people also gnashing their teeth a couple months back that this process wasn’t being done quickly enough?
You'll need to be more specific on "people".
Its amazing they follow this up immediately with the trade deal stuff.
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Weren’t people also gnashing their teeth a couple months back that this process wasn’t being done quickly enough?
Yes, people can have different opinions of how fast the process should go. This kind of comment always strikes me as disingenuous because it implies its the same people.
If I thought it was the same people I would have said so.
The larger point I was getting at is that there is seemingly no approach to this that will please everyone.
I’m sure that many discussions were had about what to include, and I personally would prefer that some more of Trump’s obvious crimes be included, but I also think it’s a good idea to keep this focused on Ukraine as well because that’s the one topic that seemed to actually make the general public notice. It sucks that it’s come to this, but now it’s essentially a public relations campaign to get public pressure on Senators to vote for removal.
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
The right time is "before the media and the public get bored and move on".
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Weren’t people also gnashing their teeth a couple months back that this process wasn’t being done quickly enough?
Yes, people can have different opinions of how fast the process should go. This kind of comment always strikes me as disingenuous because it implies its the same people.
If I thought it was the same people I would have said so.
The larger point I was getting at is that there is seemingly no approach to this that will please everyone.
I’m sure that many discussions were had about what to include, and I personally would prefer that some more of Trump’s obvious crimes be included, but I also think it’s a good idea to keep this focused on Ukraine as well because that’s the one topic that seemed to actually make the general public notice. It sucks that it’s come to this, but now it’s essentially a public relations campaign to get public pressure on Senators to vote for removal.
Dunno. I think that it would have been better to not include the Mueller report and just focus on the Ukraine stuff since that's the thing that seems to land hits, but I'm not particulary emotionally invested on this.
And there's a lot of very angry "We are going to impeach you for being Putin's cock holster Drumpf!!!" feelings around.
The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
I think it is important that we also Do The Right Thing which means not letting him get away with many of his other crimes. If we could realistically get the caucus to support it then it should be in there.
This can also affect messaging, because if it wasn't in the articles of impeachment he was probably innocent of it, right? That was basically how the Mueller report was received by large parts of the media / public.
It's simpler than that.
If you're a Republican, Trump is innocent. If you're a Democrat, he's guilty.
That's it. That is the state of politics now.
We spend the next year making as much of a talking point as we can, and resign ourselves to the fact that, in the end, 2020 will still probably come down to health care and taxes. If we're lucky, we get a mini recession in October that revolves itself by January.
Basically, we trick the electorate into accidentally making the right choice.
I mean, this has been obvious since the start. The Russians interfered in a US election and neither side's voters actually care enough about the issue to vote one way or the other because of it. The voting public just isn't committed to preserving the democratic system so you kinda gotta hope for the best.
That we even have articles of impeachment is a huge deal. A year ago if you had told me we'd have articles before Christmas I would have called you a lunatic. Then 2018 happened, which may be the most important midterm in this country's history. The good guys and gals have taken a stand against evil. Take heart and be proud.
The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
I think it is important that we also Do The Right Thing which means not letting him get away with many of his other crimes. If we could realistically get the caucus to support it then it should be in there.
This can also affect messaging, because if it wasn't in the articles of impeachment he was probably innocent of it, right? That was basically how the Mueller report was received by large parts of the media / public.
It's simpler than that.
If you're a Republican, Trump is innocent. If you're a Democrat, he's guilty.
That's it. That is the state of politics now.
We spend the next year making as much of a talking point as we can, and resign ourselves to the fact that, in the end, 2020 will still probably come down to health care and taxes. If we're lucky, we get a mini recession in October that revolves itself by January.
Basically, we trick the electorate into accidentally making the right choice.
To Alchohol the electorate! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
I mean your best case scenario is always to impeach on 2019 and force the Senate to deal with the optics of timing and the election.
If you can do it right before Senators go home as well, that's awesome. I consider this timing ideal, if your only hope is that the electorate will scare the hell out of a few senators.
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Stop worrying about what the Republicans will say
The right time would be when we have collected all of the pending evidence, and after bringing out witnesses about Russia, and his golf course/secret service, and his property deals
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The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
The messaging would be stronger if Pelosi hadn't literally scheduled showing support for Trump's trade deals (passing them would hand him a huge win he could campaign on) immediately after announcement of the articles of impeachment.
While I don’t like giving Trump a “win”, this does cut off any bitching that the House is focused on impeachment and not doing anything else.
It absolutely does not. McCarthy was at the podium this morning bitching out the Democrats for taking so long to acquiesce. There is no point at which this GOP will give the Democrats credit for anything.
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Stop worrying about what the Republicans will say
The right time would be when we have collected all of the pending evidence, and after bringing out witnesses about Russia, and his golf course/secret service, and his property deals
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Stop worrying about what the Republicans will say
The right time would be when we have collected all of the pending evidence, and after bringing out witnesses about Russia, and his golf course/secret service, and his property deals
2023?
The SCOTUS decision is literally a few days away, for starters I'd say that a time frame at least something like what Nixon had
It was always going to be this way, because this impeachment WAS nakedly political. It was about weighing focus groups and polls and not about actually laying forth the crimes of the greatest monster we've elected in modern history. We're going to die on the concerns of moderates while the base's enthusiasm rots, I just hope the presidential candidate can carry things.
I look forward to having to convince Democrats that Trump really did collude with Russia, since the party has all but announced that he didn't with this.
When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
Stop worrying about what the Republicans will say
The right time would be when we have collected all of the pending evidence, and after bringing out witnesses about Russia, and his golf course/secret service, and his property deals
2023?
Cute, but the SCOTUS decision is literally a few days away
It was always going to be this way, because this impeachment WAS nakedly political. It was about weighing focus groups and polls and not about actually laying forth the crimes of the greatest monster we've elected in modern history. We're going to die on the concerns of moderates while the base's enthusiasm rots, I just hope the presidential candidate can carry things.
I look forward to having to convince Democrats that Trump really did collude with Russia, since the party has all but announced that he didn't with this.
Just cause we only got Capone on tax evasion doesn't mean we forgot he was an all around shit bag.
The more I think about it, the more I think it honestly doesn't matter what articles they threw in there. Neither the public nor Republicans in congress have budged on their opinions since the investigation began, and they're realistically not going to. A narrow plurality thinks Trump should be impeached, and that's what we got.
Dems will vote to impeach on a party line vote. It moves up the Senate, and they vote to acquit on a party line vote. The fallout gets used for campaign ads on both sides.
Whether there are 2 articles or 20, whether we wrapped up the investigation in December or April, this was always where it was going to wind up. The nation is too partisan for it to go any other way.
Hopefully the Dems' campaign ads are really good.
If it "doesn't matter" then why the hell did we let him off the hook for literally everything except this one thing?
I'm sick to my stomach, nobody cares about the rule of law, nobody even cares enough to put on paper that they care about the rule of law. We can't even go through the motions anymore.
The important thing is that we impeached him. That was always the best case scenario. The details of the impeachment, as far as how it will be received by the public, aren't terribly relevant.
Welcome to 2019! It sucks! Now we try to use this as messaging to get the GOP out of power.
The messaging would be stronger if Pelosi hadn't literally scheduled showing support for Trump's trade deals (passing them would hand him a huge win he could campaign on) immediately after announcement of the articles of impeachment.
While I don’t like giving Trump a “win”, this does cut off any bitching that the House is focused on impeachment and not doing anything else.
It absolutely does not. McCarthy was at the podium this morning bitching out the Democrats for taking so long to acquiesce. There is no point at which this GOP will give the Democrats credit for anything.
Again, they're always gonna find something to complain about. But this is something more tangible than a pile of bills sitting in the Senate.
I think they made a mistake making the articles too focused. Every crime committed not in those articles (emoluments, obstruction of justice several times, misuse of government funds for personal gain, misuse of government contracts for personal gain, etc) are now dead as talking points. The investigations ultimately went nowhere and they weren't even included in the articles of impeachment.
I guess if you truely believe we are in a post fact word (for politics) then it doesn't matter. Dems vote impeach, republicans vote against, and voters don't care either way and continue to vote personal matters (healthcare, taxes, etc). But if we were ever going to return from this shitshow of destruction of norms and consolidation of power in the executive, we were going to need to highlight all of the problems that have come up, not just the easier to explain ones. How much support will there be going forward to say enforce the requirement that presidents divest themselves? I mean Trump didn't and that was apparently fine, no crimes committed there, he was impeached for the Ukraine stuff not financial crimes.
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
If you put in too many things then it just looks like Democrats whining about everything Trump does because they hate everything he does. It's better to focus on his one easily provable thing where his guilt is so obvious and not get into the weeds of a million things no one has ever heard of, doesn't care about, or doesn't understand.
It's better to do it sooner than later for the same reason. So it doesn't look like you're dragging it out just for show.
I think they made a mistake making the articles too focused. Every crime committed not in those articles (emoluments, obstruction of justice several times, misuse of government funds for personal gain, misuse of government contracts for personal gain, etc) are now dead as talking points. The investigations ultimately went nowhere and they weren't even included in the articles of impeachment.
I guess if you truely believe we are in a post fact word (for politics) then it doesn't matter. Dems vote impeach, republicans vote against, and voters don't care either way and continue to vote personal matters (healthcare, taxes, etc). But if we were ever going to return from this shitshow of destruction of norms and consolidation of power in the executive, we were going to need to highlight all of the problems that have come up, not just the easier to explain ones. How much support will there be going forward to say enforce the requirement that presidents divest themselves? I mean Trump didn't and that was apparently fine, no crimes committed there, he was impeached for the Ukraine stuff not financial crimes.
I think that's why I'm so upset, this might as well be my party admitting that the Republicans can just create reality as they go. They have given up even saying what is real and what is not real.
This isn't the first time too, in 2010 the same people that created and passed the ACA pretended to have never heard of it or ran away from it so hard they tried to pretend Obama wasn't president. It didn't go well then.
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I think it is important that we also Do The Right Thing which means not letting him get away with many of his other crimes. If we could realistically get the caucus to support it then it should be in there.
This can also affect messaging, because if it wasn't in the articles of impeachment he was probably innocent of it, right? That was basically how the Mueller report was received by large parts of the media / public.
I want to see Trump indicted. I want to see him in jail for the laws he broke. That can come if there is political will.
But we need to make it 100% clear that no one is above the law. And the law needs to reflect that.
My eyes are squarely on Barr and McConnell.
Well I got bad news for you then...
That’s probably how it’ll play out.
But McConnell has been getting hit pretty hard in Kentucky the past year and will want the trial to at least have the appearance of not being a clown show, which will give Senate Dems some wiggle room on negotiating the rules.
It’ll still be bad, just not as bad as I originally thought.
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It'd be real easy to drive a narrative
I don't see why he would want that appearance. It's never been a concern of his before. It's much 'better' (at least as far as he and Trump are concerned) if they go 100% on the attack and use every single dirty trick and procedural bit of fuckery to fuck things up as possible. That's what his base loves. Not a fair fight. Not appearing impartial. Making the other side angry. It's what they've always done. It's what they doubled down on when they're in trouble. It's what they do when they have all the cards. The playbook's not about to change just for this.
The only question in my mind is whether they rush through it, yelling about how it's a sham process while using it to smear Biden, or delay and deflect enough so they can go "Welp, too close to the election, we'll let the people decide," which gives them a perfect out either way.
More likely it's stuff to be used in 2020 to further depress R turnout* and try desperately to swing the Senate. Which, really, is what this whole process is about.
* I'd add bolster D turnout, but really I don't think Dem enthusiasm is going to be a problem in 2020 regardless of the nominee.
I'll be fine, just give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it.
Yes, they can pass additional articles. Will they... eh...
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Anymore?
The messaging would be stronger if Pelosi hadn't literally scheduled showing support for Trump's trade deals (passing them would hand him a huge win he could campaign on) immediately after announcement of the articles of impeachment.
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When is the right time? If this is too early, then when? Closer to the election so the media can jump on the Republican "it's a publicity stunt" bandwagon? During the election? After the election?
It's simpler than that.
If you're a Republican, Trump is innocent. If you're a Democrat, he's guilty.
That's it. That is the state of politics now.
We spend the next year making as much of a talking point as we can, and resign ourselves to the fact that, in the end, 2020 will still probably come down to health care and taxes. If we're lucky, we get a mini recession in October that revolves itself by January.
Basically, we trick the electorate into accidentally making the right choice.
the right time is after they include the rest of his crimes
emoluments and obstruction of justice chief among them
I've started thinking that the part of 1984 Orwell got wrong was the idea that the party needs any coercive apparatus. Tribalism and media ranging from complicit to Fox already seems to be taking care of it.
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Weren’t people also gnashing their teeth a couple months back that this process wasn’t being done quickly enough?
Yes, people can have different opinions of how fast the process should go. This kind of comment always strikes me as disingenuous because it implies its the same people.
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While I don’t like giving Trump a “win”, this does cut off any bitching that the House is focused on impeachment and not doing anything else.
You'll need to be more specific on "people".
Its amazing they follow this up immediately with the trade deal stuff.
If I thought it was the same people I would have said so.
The larger point I was getting at is that there is seemingly no approach to this that will please everyone.
I’m sure that many discussions were had about what to include, and I personally would prefer that some more of Trump’s obvious crimes be included, but I also think it’s a good idea to keep this focused on Ukraine as well because that’s the one topic that seemed to actually make the general public notice. It sucks that it’s come to this, but now it’s essentially a public relations campaign to get public pressure on Senators to vote for removal.
The right time is "before the media and the public get bored and move on".
Dunno. I think that it would have been better to not include the Mueller report and just focus on the Ukraine stuff since that's the thing that seems to land hits, but I'm not particulary emotionally invested on this.
And there's a lot of very angry "We are going to impeach you for being Putin's cock holster Drumpf!!!" feelings around.
I mean, this has been obvious since the start. The Russians interfered in a US election and neither side's voters actually care enough about the issue to vote one way or the other because of it. The voting public just isn't committed to preserving the democratic system so you kinda gotta hope for the best.
To Alchohol the electorate! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems.
If you can do it right before Senators go home as well, that's awesome. I consider this timing ideal, if your only hope is that the electorate will scare the hell out of a few senators.
Stop worrying about what the Republicans will say
The right time would be when we have collected all of the pending evidence, and after bringing out witnesses about Russia, and his golf course/secret service, and his property deals
It absolutely does not. McCarthy was at the podium this morning bitching out the Democrats for taking so long to acquiesce. There is no point at which this GOP will give the Democrats credit for anything.
2023?
The SCOTUS decision is literally a few days away, for starters I'd say that a time frame at least something like what Nixon had
It was always going to be this way, because this impeachment WAS nakedly political. It was about weighing focus groups and polls and not about actually laying forth the crimes of the greatest monster we've elected in modern history. We're going to die on the concerns of moderates while the base's enthusiasm rots, I just hope the presidential candidate can carry things.
I look forward to having to convince Democrats that Trump really did collude with Russia, since the party has all but announced that he didn't with this.
Just cause we only got Capone on tax evasion doesn't mean we forgot he was an all around shit bag.
Again, they're always gonna find something to complain about. But this is something more tangible than a pile of bills sitting in the Senate.
I guess if you truely believe we are in a post fact word (for politics) then it doesn't matter. Dems vote impeach, republicans vote against, and voters don't care either way and continue to vote personal matters (healthcare, taxes, etc). But if we were ever going to return from this shitshow of destruction of norms and consolidation of power in the executive, we were going to need to highlight all of the problems that have come up, not just the easier to explain ones. How much support will there be going forward to say enforce the requirement that presidents divest themselves? I mean Trump didn't and that was apparently fine, no crimes committed there, he was impeached for the Ukraine stuff not financial crimes.
It's better to do it sooner than later for the same reason. So it doesn't look like you're dragging it out just for show.
I think that's why I'm so upset, this might as well be my party admitting that the Republicans can just create reality as they go. They have given up even saying what is real and what is not real.
This isn't the first time too, in 2010 the same people that created and passed the ACA pretended to have never heard of it or ran away from it so hard they tried to pretend Obama wasn't president. It didn't go well then.