[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Brexit A Total Success! Huzzah!

BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising OddsRegistered User, Moderator mod
edited February 2 in Debate and/or Discourse
Ugh.

At least it's Christmas next week.

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  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    I don't think the GNU was a stupid idea in a vacuum but it's something that should have happened at least a year earlier and would only work in a different reality where Corbyn wasn't leading Labour and

    oh okay i guess it was stupid

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    From the discussion last thread:
    Staying out of Iraq wasn't that hard to do, Canada managed to avoid that war, and we're just a little bit entangled with the USA. Second largest trading relationship in the world, longest international border in the world, etc.

    Canada had a key advantage: the war was actually unpopular in Canada. Like, by a massive margin afaik. And even with that, Chretien was all "Oh sorry guys, we already committed all our troops to Afghanistan, so we couldn't send people anyway. Whoops!" to help mollify the US.

    The UK seems to have been a lot more behind the whole thing.

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  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    Motion to refer to the B-word as the Johnson Withdrawal for the entirety of the thread, excluding quotations from outside sources?

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    Sounds a bit cute

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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    From the discussion last thread:
    Staying out of Iraq wasn't that hard to do, Canada managed to avoid that war, and we're just a little bit entangled with the USA. Second largest trading relationship in the world, longest international border in the world, etc.

    Canada had a key advantage: the war was actually unpopular in Canada. Like, by a massive margin afaik. And even with that, Chretien was all "Oh sorry guys, we already committed all our troops to Afghanistan, so we couldn't send people anyway. Whoops!" to help mollify the US.

    The UK seems to have been a lot more behind the whole thing.

    Yes the general sentiment here about Iraq was "this is some bullshit, no thanks!"

    :so_raven:
    Kipling217
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Corvus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    From the discussion last thread:
    Staying out of Iraq wasn't that hard to do, Canada managed to avoid that war, and we're just a little bit entangled with the USA. Second largest trading relationship in the world, longest international border in the world, etc.

    Canada had a key advantage: the war was actually unpopular in Canada. Like, by a massive margin afaik. And even with that, Chretien was all "Oh sorry guys, we already committed all our troops to Afghanistan, so we couldn't send people anyway. Whoops!" to help mollify the US.

    The UK seems to have been a lot more behind the whole thing.

    Yes the general sentiment here about Iraq was "this is some bullshit, no thanks!"

    Norway managed to stay out by our PM at the time being an actual priest from the Christian Peoples Party(KrF) and going "actually Jesus says war is uncool so I can't go" at Bush.

    It was also majorly unpopular. Mostly because our press was actually reporting the truth and going That's It!?, when Colin Powell had his power point presentation at the UN. Didn't stop the BlueBlue right wing from saying that we should totally join.

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Change UK have officially disbanded. Not in anyway surprising since they have no MP's anymore and by anyones estimation failed miserably but it's still a sad footnote to the political careers of a bunch of people who tried to do the right thing.

    RIP

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Since Labour right now is "every man and woman for themselves", the Leave Labour MPs are going to back Johnson's Brexit bill despite Corbyn saying not to:

    Emma Lewell-Buck is a Labour MP for South Shields.

    Meanwhile, Corbyn is in eternal search for guilty parties that aren't him:

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    I mean at this point it's completely irrelevant what Labour MP's do with their votes. It will be for the next five years, probably more. Corbyn is a dead-man-walking leader with no credibility, so eh, may as well defy him to sure up their own positions.

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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Surreal. Immersive. Earth.Registered User regular
    Santa Claustrophobia wrote: »
    « hide previous quotes

    Bogart wrote: »
    Johnson is still talking about a bridge between NI and the mainland, the mad twat.


    A real, physical bridge?


    I just googled it and it is in fact feasible. Perhaps even a good idea to re-invigorate the Northern economy by providing building jobs.

    But it'd be a pointless project because it'd go to the middle of nowhere in Scotland, leaving motorists with a very long drive to anywhere, so they'd probably still take the ferry.
    Just out of hypothetical curiosity... What about a tunnel? Would it be possible? What's the geology like?

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  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    I mean at this point it's completely irrelevant what Labour MP's do with their votes. It will be for the next five years, probably more. Corbyn is a dead-man-walking leader with no credibility, so eh, may as well defy him to sure up their own positions.
    Theres always the possiblity of Labojr mps helping Boris get something across the line when his own MPs are rebelling.

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  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    Santa Claustrophobia wrote: »
    « hide previous quotes

    Bogart wrote: »
    Johnson is still talking about a bridge between NI and the mainland, the mad twat.


    A real, physical bridge?


    I just googled it and it is in fact feasible. Perhaps even a good idea to re-invigorate the Northern economy by providing building jobs.

    But it'd be a pointless project because it'd go to the middle of nowhere in Scotland, leaving motorists with a very long drive to anywhere, so they'd probably still take the ferry.
    Just out of hypothetical curiosity... What about a tunnel? Would it be possible? What's the geology like?

    Bit explode-y.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    Santa Claustrophobia wrote: »
    « hide previous quotes

    Bogart wrote: »
    Johnson is still talking about a bridge between NI and the mainland, the mad twat.


    A real, physical bridge?


    I just googled it and it is in fact feasible. Perhaps even a good idea to re-invigorate the Northern economy by providing building jobs.

    But it'd be a pointless project because it'd go to the middle of nowhere in Scotland, leaving motorists with a very long drive to anywhere, so they'd probably still take the ferry.
    Just out of hypothetical curiosity... What about a tunnel? Would it be possible? What's the geology like?

    There's a trench in the middle that's full of a lot of World War ordinance that you would rather not explode.

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  • LordSolarMachariusLordSolarMacharius Red wine with fish Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Beaufort's Dyke is the name, for anyone interested.

    Besides the British Government dumping its surplus ammunition into it after WWII, a wee bit of nuclear waste also ended up down there in the '50s.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Beaufort's Dyke is the name, for anyone interested.

    Besides the British Government dumping its surplus ammunition into it after WWII, a wee bit of nuclear waste also ended up down there in the '50s.

    ...

    Actually, go for it. Kaiju tunnel.

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  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    The Irish Sea article on Wikipedia has a depth chart

    Apparently the Irish Ministry for Tourism and Transport estimated in 1988 that a tunnel in the Irish Sea would cost twice as much as the Channel Tunnel, but that was an estimate for the south where the waters are shallower

    I also found an article from 2015 stating that the geological composition of the rock isn't favourable

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  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Surreal. Immersive. Earth.Registered User regular
    Beaufort's Dyke is the name, for anyone interested.

    Besides the British Government dumping its surplus ammunition into it after WWII, a wee bit of nuclear waste also ended up down there in the '50s.
    Ah. I vaguely remember that. Thanks for the reminder.

    What about a tunnel further south? Starting at Bispham, Blackpool, England, going to Douglas Head on the Isle of Man, then Peel on the Isle of Man to Ardglass, County Down, NI?
    What about the geology via that route? :)

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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit I'm a good person yes it's trueRegistered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Zilla360 wrote: »
    Beaufort's Dyke is the name, for anyone interested.

    Besides the British Government dumping its surplus ammunition into it after WWII, a wee bit of nuclear waste also ended up down there in the '50s.
    Ah. I vaguely remember that. Thanks for the reminder.

    What about a tunnel further south? Starting at Bispham, Blackpool, England, going to Douglas Head on the Isle of Man, then Peel on the Isle of Man to Ardglass, County Down, NI?
    What about the geology via that route? :)

    There are no real locations that are conducive to a tunnel between Britain and Ireland

    Edit: the Irish Sea is a lot deeper and the rocks a lot harder and older than the Channel. Also much less uniform geologically. The channel tunnel works because the same smooth, soft, uniform chalk that makes up the cliffs of Dover extends all the way to Calais

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  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Beaufort's Dyke is the name, for anyone interested.

    Besides the British Government dumping its surplus ammunition into it after WWII, a wee bit of nuclear waste also ended up down there in the '50s.

    ...

    Actually, go for it. Kaiju tunnel.

    "Once more, unto the Breach..."

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    I mean at this point it's completely irrelevant what Labour MP's do with their votes. It will be for the next five years, probably more. Corbyn is a dead-man-walking leader with no credibility, so eh, may as well defy him to sure up their own positions.
    Theres always the possiblity of Labojr mps helping Boris get something across the line when his own MPs are rebelling.

    With a majority of over 80, most of those new MP's who no doubt had to pledge allegiance to Boris to even be considered for their seats that is overwhelmingly unlikely. Even the ERG have shut up and got behind Boris. Say what you like about the Tories but their most enviable trait is their ability to line up in lockstep once it's clear which way the wind is blowing.

    The Tories just won their biggest majority since Thatcher, the Boris bandwagon is in full swing and regardless of any disagreements they have internally I'm betting the Tories are going to be rock solid publicly for the foreseeable future.

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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    The problem with that dumping spot is that captains would often just use the good old "eh, close enough!" strategy and unload their cargo wherever.
    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14820042-200-danger-from-the-deep/

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  • Mc zanyMc zany Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    I mean at this point it's completely irrelevant what Labour MP's do with their votes. It will be for the next five years, probably more. Corbyn is a dead-man-walking leader with no credibility, so eh, may as well defy him to sure up their own positions.
    Theres always the possiblity of Labojr mps helping Boris get something across the line when his own MPs are rebelling.

    With a majority of over 80, most of those new MP's who no doubt had to pledge allegiance to Boris to even be considered for their seats that is overwhelmingly unlikely. Even the ERG have shut up and got behind Boris. Say what you like about the Tories but their most enviable trait is their ability to line up in lockstep once it's clear which way the wind is blowing.

    The Tories just won their biggest majority since Thatcher, the Boris bandwagon is in full swing and regardless of any disagreements they have internally I'm betting the Tories are going to be rock solid publicly for the foreseeable future.

    With a majority of 80, there probably is no single faction that can dictate anything to the PM.

  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    edited December 2019




    There are several more.

    Lisa is a Labour MP for Wigan.

    Nice list of everything that's changed in the Brexit deal voted through by parliament today.

    It's going to be a shit show.

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  • PerduraboPerdurabo Leeds, UKRegistered User regular
    Those concessions would be there now if the deal passed in October. They have no leverage now, so of course it's different.

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  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    1) workers rights binned
    2) cliff edge enshrined in law because you can always get an extension and blame it on someone
    3) no environment or consumer rights protections
    4) trade negotiations in secret and cut off from parliamentary scrutiny, presumably stuff will still filter from the EU side
    5) more secrecy stuff to reduce accountability
    6) the UK reserves the right to axe any protections afforded to EU citizens at "a stroke of a pen" which sucks massively

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Platy wrote: »
    1) workers rights binned
    2) cliff edge enshrined in law because you can always get an extension and blame it on someone
    3) no environment or consumer rights protections
    4) trade negotiations in secret and cut off from parliamentary scrutiny, presumably stuff will still filter from the EU side
    5) more secrecy stuff to reduce accountability
    6) the UK reserves the right to axe any protections afforded to EU citizens at "a stroke of a pen" which sucks massively

    4 and 6 means that Boris totally plans to use EU citizens as hostages for trade benefits against the EU.

    And he nows has carte blanche to do it so...

  • Mc zanyMc zany Registered User regular
    Just been checking Twitter, loads of conservative MPs tweeting that they voted "aye" (of course). What is interesting is that the first reply to most of them is "please tell us how brexit will help your constituents?", at the time of posting none of the MPs have given an answer.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Mc zany wrote: »
    Just been checking Twitter, loads of conservative MPs tweeting that they voted "aye" (of course). What is interesting is that the first reply to most of them is "please tell us how brexit will help your constituents?", at the time of posting none of the MPs have given an answer.

    Well, the constituents want Brexit, so is it a relevant question?

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  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Back in the U.K. now and the BBC coverage of Johnson is fawning.

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Mc zany wrote: »
    Just been checking Twitter, loads of conservative MPs tweeting that they voted "aye" (of course). What is interesting is that the first reply to most of them is "please tell us how brexit will help your constituents?", at the time of posting none of the MPs have given an answer.

    Well, the constituents want Brexit, so is it a relevant question?

    Answering it is the POINT of representative government. If your constituents want a stupid thing that will hurt them you are supposed to say no because you aren't stupid.

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  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Back in the U.K. now and the BBC coverage of Johnson is fawning.

    I imagine until a true opponent rises the BBC are like a turtle on it's back at the minute. Without someone in the commons to defend them boisterously and get the public on side what can they do? I would hope that with the intention being to be independent that a lot of this stuff is just removed from Parliament's hands by the next government. What is the point of independence if you are still controllable by the party in power?

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Mc zany wrote: »
    Just been checking Twitter, loads of conservative MPs tweeting that they voted "aye" (of course). What is interesting is that the first reply to most of them is "please tell us how brexit will help your constituents?", at the time of posting none of the MPs have given an answer.

    Well, the constituents want Brexit, so is it a relevant question?

    Answering it is the POINT of representative government. If your constituents want a stupid thing that will hurt them you are supposed to say no because you aren't stupid.


    We are waaaaaaay beyond that now. The people know it’s stupid, they don’t care, they want it anyway.

    Patriotism!

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  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Back in the U.K. now and the BBC coverage of Johnson is fawning.

    I imagine until a true opponent rises the BBC are like a turtle on it's back at the minute. Without someone in the commons to defend them boisterously and get the public on side what can they do? I would hope that with the intention being to be independent that a lot of this stuff is just removed from Parliament's hands by the next government. What is the point of independence if you are still controllable by the party in power?

    Rob Burly and LauraK are Johnson fan boys. This isn't about a defence mechanism, this is about their senior political staff being stock with outriders for Boris.

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  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    That goddamn commemorative Brexit 50p coin is happening again.

    A full million of the original versions were melted down when we didn't leave on October 31st.

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  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    The conservative plan revealed: shift economy hard to coin minting, never actually Brexit but keep making and then melting down commemorative coins.

    Actual serious hypothesis: if the EU doesn't inform Parliament to make absolutely certain that those laws removing worker rights and protections and so forth don't take effect until Britain actually Brexits (on pain of extra consequences), they could cheat the system and get Britain (or rather, Britain-based rich people) special privileges by removing all these protections on the date they're supposed to Brexit, and then deciding "nah let's not", revoking article 50, and staying in the EU but with all these exemptions for themselves.

    And don't say the base would revolt, either, because we all know that cognitive dissonance isn't a thing that happens to cultists.

    Zilla360
  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    The conservative plan revealed: shift economy hard to coin minting, never actually Brexit but keep making and then melting down commemorative coins.

    Actual serious hypothesis: if the EU doesn't inform Parliament to make absolutely certain that those laws removing worker rights and protections and so forth don't take effect until Britain actually Brexits (on pain of extra consequences), they could cheat the system and get Britain (or rather, Britain-based rich people) special privileges by removing all these protections on the date they're supposed to Brexit, and then deciding "nah let's not", revoking article 50, and staying in the EU but with all these exemptions for themselves.

    And don't say the base would revolt, either, because we all know that cognitive dissonance isn't a thing that happens to cultists.

    I disagree.
    I think the luxuries afforded to us by our standards of living have made us undisciplined and somewhat lazy.
    People like, or rather the ideologies of, Johnson, Moog, Farage, Trump et al. are the McDonalds of the mind.
    The base is cognitively obese, but once you take away their stuff (protections, social aid, health care, etc.) they'll turn around.
    It'll be too late and I'm convinced that Boris will be able to deflect most if not all of the blame towards the EU/foreigners.

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  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    A no deal brexit is now a very real possibility due to the changes to the WA.

    If that happens the Tories have four years to convince the population that it's not their fault and judging by the recent election they'll probably succeed.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited December 2019
    at this point wouldnt be no deal - a bunch of minor agreements would be in place to cover most basic stuff

    it would just be hard hard hard Brexit with us being full “random country” trade status with eu

    rebecca long-bailey leadership campaign lead by the same old lunatics who drove Corbyn into the ground

    mcdonnell possibly not going to publicly back her as a result which is bizarre given she’s generally thought of as the Corbyn McDonnell heir apparent, but it shows how wide the split between McDonnell and others had become by the end

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  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    McDonnell realised that actually being in power is important.

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited December 2019
    Tube wrote: »
    Back in the U.K. now and the BBC coverage of Johnson is fawning.

    I imagine until a true opponent rises the BBC are like a turtle on it's back at the minute. Without someone in the commons to defend them boisterously and get the public on side what can they do? I would hope that with the intention being to be independent that a lot of this stuff is just removed from Parliament's hands by the next government. What is the point of independence if you are still controllable by the party in power?

    Is there any way they can reasonably be free of Parliamentary shenanigans while still being subscription funded, or should they start asking NPR and PBS what sort of tote bags really brings in the donations during pledge week?

    Foefaller on
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