Continuing to Discuss the [2020 Primary] and Not Other Stuff

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  • jammujammu Never-Ending, Never Alone Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    As far as I can tell neither of them tried to make this an attack on the other or do anything but de-escalate the situation.

    Senator Warren refused to shake Senator Sander's hand after the debate.

    Might be related to him essentially calling her a liar during the debate.

    Did he call her a liar or did she call him a liar? Are 1 or more of them liars?

    This is the problem with personal accusations without any proof like this. She staked her reputation versus his reputation.
    Do you believe Bernie or Warren? Or wish pox on both of their houses? Or just hope that mommy and daddy stop fighting?

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    Also, SURPRISE! Turns out that Slack script document was legit and deployed to a few states.

    So much for rogue staffers!
    DES MOINES, Iowa — The controversial talking points attacking Elizabeth Warren that Bernie Sanders' campaign deployed were given to teams in at least two early voting states on Friday, three Sanders campaign officials confirmed.

    Volunteers and staffers used the script on Saturday while canvassing for votes, meaning the talking points were more official than what Sanders previously suggested after POLITICO reported on the language.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/14/sanders-admits-anti-warren-script-early-states-098786

    Did Sanders specifically deny this or was it a staffer or was The Campaign or was there even a reported denial?

    Sanders himself specifically addressed it with a non-denial that implied it was just staffers saying things they shouldn't, rather than an actual campaign position.

    Sooo, kind of like how he addressed the "women can't win" comment?

    Specifically, I haven't seen him explicitly denying saying the thing Warren attributed to him

    He did address it directly.
    Earlier in the day, Sanders said in a statement that “staff who weren't in the room are lying about what happened.”

    "It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn't win,” Sanders said. He acknowledged that gender came up during their conversation. “What I did say that night was that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could," Sanders said.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/13/warren-sanders-feud-098494

    Some of y'all are straight up refusing to acknowledge reality and it's more than a little unsettling.

    Ahh this is the quote I wanted to see.

    So, they're both right, no one lied, it's a miscommunication being propped up as a big news event when in reality it is anything but.

    I would like both Warren and Sanders to release a commercial clearing it up and then ending it with "Now let's all go back to making fun of Biden and Buttigieg"

    They've both said it's not a big deal.

    Unfortunately that's not enough for some people to move on and they feel a need to objectively prove everything terrible is one specific person's fault.

    Which wouldn't be such a big deal if wild claims weren't being made in order to do so.
    warren de-escalated by turning it into a debate own

    After all it's Warren's duty to be subservient to the best interests of the Sanders campaign. She should have said women can't win when asked!

    Thisbis trying to have it both ways.

    What precisely would you have had her say?

    I don't think she wanted this out here, because it's stupid, and absent the heritage thing she hasn't done anything stupid. But once it's out you can either use it or drop and endorse Sanders. There are no other options.

    She could have stuck with her statement instead of deciding to drop some sick bombs

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    painfulPleasance
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    after finally reading all these sources it looks to me like there was a minor miscommunication that, until this week, nobody cared about even though both sides were party to the conversation

    Unless you already believed Sanders was a sexist and just makes a massive show of supporting female candidates, this is the nothingest of nothingburgers, and the parties who are most pushing this are the entities that stand to lose out under either a Sanders or a Warren administration

    I've been on reddit this morning trying to get progressives to step back from the ledge and reminding them that CNN/Biden/MAYORPETE are our real opponents in this fight, and I'm heartened to see that seems to be a much more pronounced reaction to this than "FUCK WARREN" or "FUCK SANDERS"

    override367 on
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  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    Worrying about the handshake is some real tmz celebrity gossip treating politics like a reality show shit, like damn warren personally disrespected bernie? So what? Why should this be the last straw for a voter and not the thousand other differences between them which actually affect more than the two of them?

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Biden's denial of his vote for the Iraq war is infuriating.

    Grow a pair and admit you screwed up.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited January 15
    Quid wrote: »
    Biden's denial of his vote for the Iraq war is infuriating.

    Grow a pair and admit you screwed up.

    Being a Boomer isn’t necessarily a birthdate thing, it’s an attitude

    It’s failing your way to the top, fucking over everybody else then pulling up the ladder, and blaming the problems you created on the youngs

    He may technically be from the silent generation but his political history is alllll Boomer

    joshofalltrades on
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  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    Worrying about the handshake is some real tmz celebrity gossip treating politics like a reality show shit, like damn warren personally disrespected bernie? So what? Why should this be the last straw for a voter and not the thousand other differences between them which actually affect more than the two of them?
    because bernie's chances of beating biden are slim enough as it is without this shit and warren's are still basically zero

    absolute own goal

    Styrofoam Sammich
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Can we focus on what's really important: That Biden's response to this controversy was to say he helped get 27 women elected in 2018, as if they wouldn't have gotten elected without him?

    What? That's not what 'helping' means. If my nephew cleans his room, and I'm in there occasionally reminding him to stay focused rather than reading books and playing with toys, I have helped him clean up, but he would have managed it without me. Saying you helped does not mean you believe your effort was critical to the success.

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  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    edited January 15
    how did this double post

    Captain Carrot on
  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    edited January 15
    So CNN has it out for Bernie in an obvious way and this is news to me. I'm trying to figure out why. The simple answer is that CNN is the wealthy class and they don't want the socialist to win because class warfare. Is it truly that simple or am I missing something?

    Nobeard on
    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    Also, SURPRISE! Turns out that Slack script document was legit and deployed to a few states.

    So much for rogue staffers!
    DES MOINES, Iowa — The controversial talking points attacking Elizabeth Warren that Bernie Sanders' campaign deployed were given to teams in at least two early voting states on Friday, three Sanders campaign officials confirmed.

    Volunteers and staffers used the script on Saturday while canvassing for votes, meaning the talking points were more official than what Sanders previously suggested after POLITICO reported on the language.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/14/sanders-admits-anti-warren-script-early-states-098786

    Did Sanders specifically deny this or was it a staffer or was The Campaign or was there even a reported denial?

    Sanders himself specifically addressed it with a non-denial that implied it was just staffers saying things they shouldn't, rather than an actual campaign position.

    Sooo, kind of like how he addressed the "women can't win" comment?

    Specifically, I haven't seen him explicitly denying saying the thing Warren attributed to him

    He did address it directly.
    Earlier in the day, Sanders said in a statement that “staff who weren't in the room are lying about what happened.”

    "It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn't win,” Sanders said. He acknowledged that gender came up during their conversation. “What I did say that night was that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could," Sanders said.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/13/warren-sanders-feud-098494

    Some of y'all are straight up refusing to acknowledge reality and it's more than a little unsettling.

    Ahh this is the quote I wanted to see.

    So, they're both right, no one lied, it's a miscommunication being propped up as a big news event when in reality it is anything but.

    I would like both Warren and Sanders to release a commercial clearing it up and then ending it with "Now let's all go back to making fun of Biden and Buttigieg"

    They've both said it's not a big deal.

    Unfortunately that's not enough for some people to move on and they feel a need to objectively prove everything terrible is one specific person's fault.

    Which wouldn't be such a big deal if wild claims weren't being made in order to do so.
    warren de-escalated by turning it into a debate own

    After all it's Warren's duty to be subservient to the best interests of the Sanders campaign. She should have said women can't win when asked!

    Thisbis trying to have it both ways.

    What precisely would you have had her say?

    I don't think she wanted this out here, because it's stupid, and absent the heritage thing she hasn't done anything stupid. But once it's out you can either use it or drop and endorse Sanders. There are no other options.

    She could have stuck with her statement instead of deciding to drop some sick bombs

    What sick bombs?

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    So CNN has it out for Bernie in an obvious way and this is news to me. I'm trying to figure out why. The simple answer is that CNN is the wealthy class and they don't want the socialist to win because class warfare. Is it truly that simple or am I missing something?

    No youve basically got it.

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  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    Elendil wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Worrying about the handshake is some real tmz celebrity gossip treating politics like a reality show shit, like damn warren personally disrespected bernie? So what? Why should this be the last straw for a voter and not the thousand other differences between them which actually affect more than the two of them?
    because bernie's chances of beating biden are slim enough as it is without this shit and warren's are still basically zero

    absolute own goal

    From this position, the only justifiable action by either campaign is to drop out and endorse the other.

    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    So CNN has it out for Bernie in an obvious way and this is news to me. I'm trying to figure out why. The simple answer is that CNN is the wealthy class and they don't want the socialist to win because class warfare. Is it truly that simple or am I missing something?

    It's more an inside/outside story than a rich/poor one, but obviously those things are related. They don't exactly like Warren either, and it's because both threaten the fundamental power structure/corruption of DC. Versailles on the Potomac!

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    You could come up with so many reasons. The least evil, they don't think Bernie can beat Trump and as upper class liberals, that's all they care about. The most evil, they think Bernie has the best chance to beat Trump and they want the drama to continue because they are cynical assholes who can't see how Trump's reelection will affect them.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Elendil wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Worrying about the handshake is some real tmz celebrity gossip treating politics like a reality show shit, like damn warren personally disrespected bernie? So what? Why should this be the last straw for a voter and not the thousand other differences between them which actually affect more than the two of them?
    because bernie's chances of beating biden are slim enough as it is without this shit and warren's are still basically zero

    absolute own goal

    I'm not seeing how either off their chances are meaningfully different.

    MarathonKristmas KthulhuQanamilGnizmoTarantio
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    This idea that Warren committed some egregious breach of etiquette by not shaking hands with Bernie is beyond silly.

    At no point in this story has Bernie said anything close to an apology for what he said, I even if he didn’t mean it the way Warren took it. Unless you are claiming that Warren is 100% lying about the entire story and she made the whole thing up. Bernie seemingly said something and Warren took it in a way it wasn’t intended.

    Instead of apologizing or offering any indication that he understands her feelings, Bernie doubles down and says that it’s not true.

    And people wonder why Warren might be, in the moment, pissed at her friend and not exactly in the mood to shake his hand?

    What, so Bernie should just accept being labeled a misogynist in the court of public opinion?

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Worrying about the handshake is some real tmz celebrity gossip treating politics like a reality show shit, like damn warren personally disrespected bernie? So what? Why should this be the last straw for a voter and not the thousand other differences between them which actually affect more than the two of them?
    because bernie's chances of beating biden are slim enough as it is without this shit and warren's are still basically zero

    absolute own goal

    From this position, the only justifiable action by either campaign is to drop out and endorse the other.

    Also of note, Sanders and Warren are polling within the margin of error with respect to each other in Iowa as well as nationally. So I really disagree with the characterization that Bernie’s chances are “slim”, but Warren’s are “zero”.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »

    Could I get a checklist of when we should and should not take the media's focus on meaningless issues for ratings in good faith?

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  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud bear with us as we do some "rebranding" Registered User regular
    Let's say it was a heavily calculated ploy by the Warren campaign to garner last minute votes before the Iowa primary. Let's entertain that it was dirty politics. Let's also compare historically the level of dirtiness. It's pretty tame. And the Sanders machine had a meltdown. How in the world is the Sanders machine going to get through the General without imploding from aggrievedness?

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »

    Except this story was already a headline before the debate and before either candidate commented on it.

    But hey, blame women.

    shryke on
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »

    Could I get a checklist of when we should and should not take the media's focus on meaningless issues for ratings in good faith?

    Good or bad faith is irrelevant. Any idiot could tell you how this would have played and the Warren campaign ran with it.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud bear with us as we do some "rebranding" Registered User regular
    Trump isn't going to shake Bernie's hand. He's going to pull out the deepest and darkest shit possible at all times.

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  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    Boy Dems are really good at making a mountain out of a mole hill, huh?

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited January 15
    I would fall over dead from surprise if last night’s debate did anything other than mildly calcify existing support for the person on stage you already liked the most

    It cannot be overstated how plugged in we are here compared to the rest of the country

    joshofalltrades on
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  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    This idea that Warren committed some egregious breach of etiquette by not shaking hands with Bernie is beyond silly.

    At no point in this story has Bernie said anything close to an apology for what he said, I even if he didn’t mean it the way Warren took it. Unless you are claiming that Warren is 100% lying about the entire story and she made the whole thing up. Bernie seemingly said something and Warren took it in a way it wasn’t intended.

    Instead of apologizing or offering any indication that he understands her feelings, Bernie doubles down and says that it’s not true.

    And people wonder why Warren might be, in the moment, pissed at her friend and not exactly in the mood to shake his hand?

    What, so Bernie should just accept being labeled a misogynist in the court of public opinion?
    Im not sure how a cycle that attempts to paint your rival as a sexist is necessarily a bad deal in the democratic primary.

    You've said this a few times now, and I don't get it. If Sanders thinks a woman can't win, and I'd call that a reasonable position, that doesn't make him sexist. I might not agree with him, but that's more a case of pointing out sexism in the electorate. It wasn't racist to think a black man couldn't win in 2008, which I'm pretty sure is part of why Clinton was beating him there until he won Iowa.
    Seriously, claiming that the comment shows discrimination makes no sense.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Let's say it was a heavily calculated ploy by the Warren campaign to garner last minute votes before the Iowa primary. Let's entertain that it was dirty politics. Let's also compare historically the level of dirtiness. It's pretty tame. And the Sanders machine had a meltdown. How in the world is the Sanders machine going to get through the General without imploding from aggrievedness?

    Supporters outraged on your behalf isnt exactly a burden.

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    painfulPleasance
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    Elendil wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    Worrying about the handshake is some real tmz celebrity gossip treating politics like a reality show shit, like damn warren personally disrespected bernie? So what? Why should this be the last straw for a voter and not the thousand other differences between them which actually affect more than the two of them?
    because bernie's chances of beating biden are slim enough as it is without this shit and warren's are still basically zero

    absolute own goal

    Nah, bernie's doing great in iowa, have more faith

    2vue7ao.png
    painfulPleasance
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »

    Could I get a checklist of when we should and should not take the media's focus on meaningless issues for ratings in good faith?

    Good or bad faith is irrelevant. Any idiot could tell you how this would have played and the Warren campaign ran with it.

    I guess the bolded is where you and I will have to agree to disagree.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    I don't understand saying "they ran with it."

    Story leaks. We don't know from whom, but it's obvious to everyone this wouldn't help Warren and doesn't jive with what her campaign's public strategy was (UNITY) and in fact only moves to undercut it. The only people who could confirm or deny the story are Warren herself or Bernie, so it's not like they could plant it anonymously as a smear without having her be asked for comment. If their goal was to undercut Bernie it would have been something they could plausibly no comment.

    Then the Warren campaign says nothing for hours while Bernie releases a statement accusing her staff members of lying. After that she releases a statement where she confirms that she remembers him saying a woman couldn't win but that this is meaningless bullshit and who cares about their difference in punditry. At the debate, when asked, she makes a general statement about how women can win, again instead of attacking Bernie.

    The narrative you've established simply does not make sense. But it is revealing.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    I would fall over dead from surprise if last night’s debate did anything other than mildly calcify existing support for the person on stage you already liked the most

    It cannot be overstated how plugged in we are here compared to the rest of the country

    my mom's car and yard are covered in pro warren and pro sanders stuff, as well as lots of anti trump things and she hates biden

    she didn't know there was a debate last night

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    I'm too far too the left to participate in these discussions, I guess

    I see Warren as a step in the right direction for the Democratic party, bit she doesn't go far enough to save human society as we know it within my life time

    She and Comrade Bernard are trying to change the party from within, and I can appreciate the cynicism of that, but neo liberalism is literally serving the world to the fascists on a platter, so I'm less than enthusiastic

    Mike, Pete and Joe should primary Trump as Republicans, their records should exclude them from the current version of the Democratic party

    A country where Joe Biden runs as a republican will never elect another Democrat.

    Lanlaorn
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud bear with us as we do some "rebranding" Registered User regular
    Let's say it was a heavily calculated ploy by the Warren campaign to garner last minute votes before the Iowa primary. Let's entertain that it was dirty politics. Let's also compare historically the level of dirtiness. It's pretty tame. And the Sanders machine had a meltdown. How in the world is the Sanders machine going to get through the General without imploding from aggrievedness?

    Supporters outraged on your behalf isnt exactly a burden.
    Thank you for using the word outrage and accurately describing the general thematics that the Bernie camp will bring. My question is will outrage be the right mechanism to combat the literal storm of awfulness that is going to come from the Trump campaign over the next year? If Bernie becomes the nom, what happens to the "media and DNC rigged against Bernie the underdog" outrage? He won't be the underdog anymore. He will be the Dem nominee.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    spool32 wrote: »
    I'm too far too the left to participate in these discussions, I guess

    I see Warren as a step in the right direction for the Democratic party, bit she doesn't go far enough to save human society as we know it within my life time

    She and Comrade Bernard are trying to change the party from within, and I can appreciate the cynicism of that, but neo liberalism is literally serving the world to the fascists on a platter, so I'm less than enthusiastic

    Mike, Pete and Joe should primary Trump as Republicans, their records should exclude them from the current version of the Democratic party

    A country where Joe Biden runs as a republican will never elect another Democrat.

    With the current demographics, sure

    but the boomers aren't immortal, and unless they move from voter suppression to just actively seizing power and shutting down elections, the Republican party as we know it does not have more than a decade left

    override367 on
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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    I'm too far too the left to participate in these discussions, I guess

    I see Warren as a step in the right direction for the Democratic party, bit she doesn't go far enough to save human society as we know it within my life time

    She and Comrade Bernard are trying to change the party from within, and I can appreciate the cynicism of that, but neo liberalism is literally serving the world to the fascists on a platter, so I'm less than enthusiastic

    Mike, Pete and Joe should primary Trump as Republicans, their records should exclude them from the current version of the Democratic party

    A country where Joe Biden runs as a republican will never elect another Democrat.

    Considering the shifts in parties over the last 100 years, how do you mean?

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  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    My question is will outrage be the right mechanism to combat the literal storm of awfulness that is going to come from the Trump campaign over the next year?
    yes

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Let's say it was a heavily calculated ploy by the Warren campaign to garner last minute votes before the Iowa primary. Let's entertain that it was dirty politics. Let's also compare historically the level of dirtiness. It's pretty tame. And the Sanders machine had a meltdown. How in the world is the Sanders machine going to get through the General without imploding from aggrievedness?

    Supporters outraged on your behalf isnt exactly a burden.
    Thank you for using the word outrage and accurately describing the general thematics that the Bernie camp will bring. My question is will outrage be the right mechanism to combat the literal storm of awfulness that is going to come from the Trump campaign over the next year? If Bernie becomes the nom, what happens to the "media and DNC rigged against Bernie the underdog" outrage? He won't be the underdog anymore. He will be the Dem nominee.

    Somehow I think we'll be able to stay mad at CNN.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    I would like both Sanders and Warren to dismiss any further questions on this topic

    override367 on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited January 15
    I would fall over dead from surprise if last night’s debate did anything other than mildly calcify existing support for the person on stage you already liked the most

    It cannot be overstated how plugged in we are here compared to the rest of the country

    my mom's car and yard are covered in pro warren and pro sanders stuff, as well as lots of anti trump things and she hates biden

    she didn't know there was a debate last night

    There's been a lot of opinion pieces this week about the big gap being between engaged and unengaged voters and how the unengaged (rightfully!) don't trust the major media organizations and believe they're entirely too focused on trivial bullshit and not what actually matters. So they're frustrated. And one of the problems Democrats have is that they care too much about those media organizations. Which means they are not even reaching these voters. Trump's omnipresence since he announced, especially digitally, means they do see him though.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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