[Virtual Reality] 2: Electric Butterloo

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    I do hope that eventually they'll have a wider FOV (in combination with some sort of foveated rendering), but I understand why they're currently going for resolution, DPI and frequency over a wider FOV. Obviously this is just my own experience, but while there have been games where I very much felt that the FOV was too narrow (e.g. Audioshield), there are others that were designed so I very quickly forgot all about the narrow FOV.

    @Mayday: Have you had a chance to try out any of the VR headsets?

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  • MaydayMayday Cutting edge goblin tech Registered User regular
    Nope. Obviously that's something I want to do before I buy anything, but it's probably a tad more difficult here (Poland) than in the US to just visit stores and ask for presentations. We'll see!

  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    I do hope that eventually they'll have a wider FOV (in combination with some sort of foveated rendering), but I understand why they're currently going for resolution, DPI and frequency over a wider FOV. Obviously this is just my own experience, but while there have been games where I very much felt that the FOV was too narrow (e.g. Audioshield), there are others that were designed so I very quickly forgot all about the narrow FOV.

    I'm inclined to agree. While I'm sure a wider FOV would be great, one of those things I'd never go back from once I had it, in practice looking at virtual worlds through a mask view is still a whole new experience from looking at it through a monitor. The low resolution on the CV1 (and Vive) is an immediate problem because text is hard to read, and small objects are hard to distinguish.

    Also, I don't think you'll be able to get an Index and a better video card for $1200, unless you're getting both used. The Index by itself is $1000 with the requisite Lighthouses and controllers.

  • Big DookieBig Dookie Smells great! Houston, TXRegistered User regular
    Mayday wrote: »
    Hey guys, I'm currently a bit on the fence between buying a 3d printer or a VR set. I have a budget of about $1200 (unfortunately this includes the potential necessity to upgrade my GTX 1070). TBH I've never even got a chance to try a VR set at all, so for now I'm just basing my thoughts on video reviews etc. but here's my main concern:
    It looks like we're getting there in terms of resolution and image quality but for me the FOV has always been a bigger concern (which is why my gaming desktop monitor has a natural horizontal viewing angle of about 105° - albeit a measly 35° for vertical). However, this chart shows that hardly anyone tried for a realistic viewing angle and those who did (Pimax and StarVR) are already outdated.
    I wear glasses, which have an angle of about 120°-130° (never measured it exactly) so it looks like the Valve Index would satisfy my expectations here. Given that neither HTC nor Oculus tried for higher FOV, is there some obstacle or technical problem which is why I shouldn't even bother with wider FOV?

    I'm also truly dismayed that in this age of ultra-widescreen monitors and VR games nobody seems to be including an option for cylindrical projection in their games (rather than the default flat) but that's a different subject entirely.

    Honestly, I'm just a layman on this subject, but I'll offer my two cents anyway. The FOV restriction is there, and if you go in looking for it, it'll probably bother you. However, VR is so incredibly immersive, it's easy to quickly forget about it and overlook it. Especially if you already wear glasses, you're used to having a slightly impaired peripheral vision (though just maybe not the same extent). But once you're inside actually "doing stuff," for me at least, I almost immediately tuned out the more narrow FOV because it's not that big of a hindrance compared to everything else you're experiencing. Especially if you've never actually tried VR, the first time you put it on you'll be so HOLY SHIT amazed by what you're experiencing that you may not even notice the FOV as a major issue.

    Videos cannot convey this experience in any meaningful way. So what I'd say is, if possible, find some way to try one of these newer headsets with a lower FOV out like a Rift S or a Quest 2. My experience is that the overall experience far outweighs the FOV issue, which barely even registers with me, but in the end there's no way to know if that will be the case for you too until you try it.

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  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    Man, the Quest 2 is more comfortable then my CV1. Im surprised, I expected the cheap strap to be very uncomfortable.

    That clarity upgrade is amazing though.

    Drez
  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited October 16
    Oh wow, yeah even wifi to router and then wifi to desktop, there is no visible latency. It actually is more responsive then my CV1.

    My VR latency is at 24ms doing that, so that seems decent. I'll hardwire the desktop later to see if it improves.

    Dixon on
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  • MaydayMayday Cutting edge goblin tech Registered User regular
    Orogogus wrote: »
    Also, I don't think you'll be able to get an Index and a better video card for $1200, unless you're getting both used. The Index by itself is $1000 with the requisite Lighthouses and controllers.

    Yeah, just checked the local prices and looks like my budget would barely cover the whole set. I might do that if I feel like I find the FOV a big issue (which means I wouldn't buy it before trying both the Index and the Rift S first).

  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Mayday wrote: »
    Orogogus wrote: »
    Also, I don't think you'll be able to get an Index and a better video card for $1200, unless you're getting both used. The Index by itself is $1000 with the requisite Lighthouses and controllers.

    Yeah, just checked the local prices and looks like my budget would barely cover the whole set. I might do that if I feel like I find the FOV a big issue (which means I wouldn't buy it before trying both the Index and the Rift S first).

    I don't know if the Rift S is a solid recommendation now, since Oculus is discontinuing it in the spring and it's unclear how much support it will have after then (or now, for that matter). It's really too bad, since as Dhalphir has noted there aren't many alternatives at its low price point, mostly older-gen WMR headsets. If I were buying this year, I think the headsets I'd consider would be the Reverb G2 ($600), the Quest 2 ($300/$400) -- except I don't like the Facebook requirement -- and the Index ($1000).

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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Orogogus wrote: »
    Mayday wrote: »
    Orogogus wrote: »
    Also, I don't think you'll be able to get an Index and a better video card for $1200, unless you're getting both used. The Index by itself is $1000 with the requisite Lighthouses and controllers.

    Yeah, just checked the local prices and looks like my budget would barely cover the whole set. I might do that if I feel like I find the FOV a big issue (which means I wouldn't buy it before trying both the Index and the Rift S first).

    I don't know if the Rift S is a solid recommendation now, since Oculus is discontinuing it in the spring and it's unclear how much support it will have after then (or now, for that matter). It's really too bad, since as Dhalphir has noted there aren't many alternatives at its low price point, mostly older-gen WMR headsets. If I were buying this year, I think the headsets I'd consider would be the Reverb G2 ($600), the Quest 2 ($300/$400) -- except I don't like the Facebook requirement -- and the Index ($1000).

    If you were going wired, the G2 is probably better anyway

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  • The_SpaniardThe_Spaniard Registered User regular
    Apparently the Quest 2 doesn't support Oculus Go apps that were supported by the Quest 1. Thanks for the heads up Oculus, I would have liked to know that in advance. The sad part is that they still work completely fine if you sideload them, but if you backed up and restored all of your games like I did there is literally no way to access them anymore because they removed the tab for them in the library.

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  • MaydayMayday Cutting edge goblin tech Registered User regular
    Yeah, I'm definitely not buying anything that requires a facebook login to work. I wasn't aware that the support for the device plays an important role though! Thanks for the heads up.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    What's the upper limit on motion capture for the Index right now? I assume there's a specific number of sensors it can process?

  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    What's some good demo VR games? Like, real simple. Super Hot! Beat Saber! are the gold standard.

    The big issue with a lot of VR games is the lack of standardised controls. You are having to teach a newbie the controls all over again if you change games. Any good roller coaster games? Or games with limited or simple controls? Even The Lab was a bit tricky and that's usually my go to when showing games to newbies. But the archery game went down a treat, simple, repetitive.

  • FireflashFireflash Montreal, QCRegistered User regular
    edited October 17
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    What's some good demo VR games? Like, real simple. Super Hot! Beat Saber! are the gold standard.

    The big issue with a lot of VR games is the lack of standardised controls. You are having to teach a newbie the controls all over again if you change games. Any good roller coaster games? Or games with limited or simple controls? Even The Lab was a bit tricky and that's usually my go to when showing games to newbies. But the archery game went down a treat, simple, repetitive.

    I got Space Pirate Trainer based on someone's recommendation here and I would say it fits that bill. You're standing on a platform in space and you have 2 guns to shoot waves of flying robots. Your guns can use different types of ammo. Bringing a gun behind your back over your shoulder will switch to a stick that can be used either as whip to grab and slam robots or a shield to block projectiles. When a projectile is about to hit you time slows down so you can try to dodge by moving your body or block if you have a shield in one of your hands.

    Edit: The immersive feeling is pretty cool. A wave starts, I'm shooting away with 2 guns then when things heat up I grab my shield with my left hand and position it towards the bots targeting me while shooting from the side with my right hand. So cool!

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    A 1070 is fine for VR right now. That's what I had before I upgraded and it drove everything OK. You aren't likely to take advantage of the Index's 120hz feature, but that's about it

    crimsoncoyoteKaroz
  • MaydayMayday Cutting edge goblin tech Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    A 1070 is fine for VR right now. That's what I had before I upgraded and it drove everything OK. You aren't likely to take advantage of the Index's 120hz feature, but that's about it

    Thanks, that's good to hear. Certainly depends on the game though... I was really hoping to at least take a walk around some games not dedicated for VR (like... Witcher 3).

  • CampyCampy Registered User regular
    Mayday wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    A 1070 is fine for VR right now. That's what I had before I upgraded and it drove everything OK. You aren't likely to take advantage of the Index's 120hz feature, but that's about it

    Thanks, that's good to hear. Certainly depends on the game though... I was really hoping to at least take a walk around some games not dedicated for VR (like... Witcher 3).

    There's a piece of kit called VorpX which I believe does this to some extent. Never used it myself or anything. It might even be defunked come to think of it...

  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited October 17
    VorpX is "ok" VR, which unfortunately for me always had something feeling slightly off compared to a well crafted VR experience. I would not expect to have long play sessions in it, but that does come down to some personal preference. If you have tolerance for VR jank (which is generally much more obtrusive and possibly nausa inducing than non-VR jank) you can have fun with it.

    Part of it is just convenience -- you have to mess with VorpX a bit. They have default profiles which are solid, but I often found myself having to put headset on, feel something is off, take it off, tweak, repeat.....and that gets frustrating (and sometimes nauseating!) before too long. And you have to brace yourself for some of the games being really not designed for VR -- any cutscene that seizes control of your head movement is going to be terrible and you have to remember it's coming and close your eyes before it starts or you're in for pain.

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  • Fartacus_the_MightyFartacus_the_Mighty Brought to you by the letter A.Registered User regular
    Campy wrote: »
    Mayday wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    A 1070 is fine for VR right now. That's what I had before I upgraded and it drove everything OK. You aren't likely to take advantage of the Index's 120hz feature, but that's about it

    Thanks, that's good to hear. Certainly depends on the game though... I was really hoping to at least take a walk around some games not dedicated for VR (like... Witcher 3).

    There's a piece of kit called VorpX which I believe does this to some extent. Never used it myself or anything. It might even be defunked come to think of it...

    Do research before buying VorpX to see if it works with whatever you're trying to get running in VR, with particular attention to what system/settings/headset/etc people are using that's working for them. I tried VorpX out 2-3 years ago and found it to be extremely finicky. Many games weren't playable at all, and all the ones that were had varying amounts of graphical and control issues.

  • KarozKaroz Registered User regular
    edited October 18
    I gotta work on putting Quest 2 and other new developments into the OP sometime.

    Grabbed Phasmophobia to play with @GSM next Saturday I hope.

    Been trying to play through Alyx when I get the chance and enjoy the Beat Saber.

    Edit: Heck, with all the changes lately I need to overhaul the OP somewhat.

    Maybe by next thread :razz:

    Karoz on
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  • templewulftemplewulf The Team Chump USARegistered User regular
    Karoz wrote: »
    I gotta work on putting Quest 2 and other new developments into the OP sometime.

    Grabbed Phasmophobia to play with @GSM next Saturday I hope.

    Been trying to play through Alyx when I get the chance and enjoy the Beat Saber.

    Edit: Heck, with all the changes lately I need to overhaul the OP somewhat.

    Maybe by next thread :razz:

    Dang, at this rate I might have to buy Ghost Punchers too

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  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    Oh nice! I already have Space Pirate Trainer, I guess I got it in a VR bundle.

    Fireflash
  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    A 1070 is fine for VR right now. That's what I had before I upgraded and it drove everything OK. You aren't likely to take advantage of the Index's 120hz feature, but that's about it

    I have a 1070 with a Rift CV1. I think the only thing it chokes on is No Man's Sky. And it doesn't meet the minimum requirements for the Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 VR beta test. I kind of thought it might have trouble driving the higher resolution headsets, though.
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    What's some good demo VR games? Like, real simple. Super Hot! Beat Saber! are the gold standard.

    The big issue with a lot of VR games is the lack of standardised controls. You are having to teach a newbie the controls all over again if you change games. Any good roller coaster games? Or games with limited or simple controls? Even The Lab was a bit tricky and that's usually my go to when showing games to newbies. But the archery game went down a treat, simple, repetitive.

    There are a lot of VR movies that don't require any input, and I think they're all free:
    The Rose and I
    Invasion
    Colosse
    Allumette
    All the Google Spotlight titles on SteamVR
    AbeVR (horror)
    Senza Peso
    Google Welcome to Light Fields
    The Visitor (horror, basically one jump scare)

    Titans of Space and TheBlu aren't free, but are also practically VR movies (or can be, anyway, in ToS's case).

    Stuff that's easy to grasp, good for demo sessions:
    Fruit Ninja
    Job Simulator/Vacation Simulator
    Richie's Plank Experience/Plank Not Included
    Google Earth VR (free)
    Aircar (free)
    The Climb (Oculus Store only)
    Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes (a good group game with one person wearing the headset)

    Stuff that might be better for demoing to gamers:
    Pinball FX2 VR
    Batman Arkham VR
    Ultrawings
    Black Hat Cooperative (another group game)

    There are also some games similar to Beat Saber:
    Pistol Whip
    OhShape

    Gvzbgul
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    Woah, the plank game is my kind of gimmick!

    Fiatil
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    What 3d painting game would you recommend? Tilt Brush seems to be the main one.

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited October 18
    Medium is a modelling rather than painting programme, but if you want to be creative, I’d recommend that one too. There’s something very cool about having made a small thing, holding it in the palm of your hand, then making it bigger until it towers over you.

    Thirith on
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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    Gorn or Blade & Sorcery are both super simple to demo and a lot of fun if you want a melee combat demo. The caveat being your ability to keep people from punching your walls :)

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  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    I just got Walkabout Mini Golf and that is an exemplary mini golf experience. I'd recommend someone playing that as well. It really does track well to the real thing, but with courses that are physically possible, but economically improbable.

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  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    Oh I am staying the fuck away from Gorn. I punched our tv once, I am not doing it again.

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  • CampyCampy Registered User regular
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Oh I am staying the fuck away from Gorn. I punched our tv once, I am not doing it again.

    Yeah, I turn the boundary wall distance aaaaaaaaall the way up when I dare to play.

  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Mayday wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm definitely not buying anything that requires a facebook login to work. I wasn't aware that the support for the device plays an important role though! Thanks for the heads up.

    I didn't see this earlier. I don't know for sure that support will play a huge role. Until recently, my Rift CV1 was getting firmware and software updates every few weeks -- I think that's slowed down in the last few months. I think it generally works without issues now, but the software is constantly reporting that my sensors and headset are on USB2 (they're not) and would be happier on USB3; it's probably fine. It's not impossible that you buy a Rift S, and everything just works fine without any further updates from Oculus. Video cards don't seem to work that way, though. There's a chance that there's a big VR release, like Microsoft Flight Simulator's VR mode or whatever game Valve comes out with next (if ever), and the Rift S has some bug or the other that just never gets fixed; but often that's on the game developer.

    You do see Quest updates where they announce new or improved voice commands, hand tracking, new UI features, etc., while the Rift S generally didn't get anything like that. I think the Quest is basically the only headset, from anyone, that sees much support beyond fixing bugs.

    I'm sure Oculus is winding down new games for the Rift S, if they haven't already -- I think there's like a 30% chance that Ubi's upcoming Assassin's Creed and Splinter Cell games will be dual Quest/Rift releases, and not just Quest exclusives -- but there's always the SteamVR library, with whatever PSVR timed exclusives migrate over. So that would be the same as any other headset.

    My view here is that if you're going to buy an Oculus headset, I'd get a Quest 2 and not a Rift S. Oculus is going to be much more active about squashing bugs and adding new features, and it will have games you can't get anywhere else.

    webguy20
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    Oh I am staying the fuck away from Gorn. I punched our tv once, I am not doing it again.

    I literally upended my desk. Half a cup of earl grey tea and every computer component known to man flew into my entertainment center. This was while playing Superhot for the 3rd or 4th time.

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  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Orogogus wrote: »
    Mayday wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm definitely not buying anything that requires a facebook login to work. I wasn't aware that the support for the device plays an important role though! Thanks for the heads up.

    I didn't see this earlier. I don't know for sure that support will play a huge role. Until recently, my Rift CV1 was getting firmware and software updates every few weeks -- I think that's slowed down in the last few months. I think it generally works without issues now, but the software is constantly reporting that my sensors and headset are on USB2 (they're not) and would be happier on USB3; it's probably fine. It's not impossible that you buy a Rift S, and everything just works fine without any further updates from Oculus. Video cards don't seem to work that way, though. There's a chance that there's a big VR release, like Microsoft Flight Simulator's VR mode or whatever game Valve comes out with next (if ever), and the Rift S has some bug or the other that just never gets fixed; but often that's on the game developer.

    You do see Quest updates where they announce new or improved voice commands, hand tracking, new UI features, etc., while the Rift S generally didn't get anything like that. I think the Quest is basically the only headset, from anyone, that sees much support beyond fixing bugs.

    I'm sure Oculus is winding down new games for the Rift S, if they haven't already -- I think there's like a 30% chance that Ubi's upcoming Assassin's Creed and Splinter Cell games will be dual Quest/Rift releases, and not just Quest exclusives -- but there's always the SteamVR library, with whatever PSVR timed exclusives migrate over. So that would be the same as any other headset.

    My view here is that if you're going to buy an Oculus headset, I'd get a Quest 2 and not a Rift S. Oculus is going to be much more active about squashing bugs and adding new features, and it will have games you can't get anywhere else.

    I have to say - if you're inclined to and have the ability to get wireless PCVR working, then the Quest 2 is the way to go and pretty much one of the best things I've ever experienced.

    Walking around in Fallout 4 VR totally wirelessly in power armor fighting deathclaws and shit is amazing.

    Also, I once exploded someone's head literally point blank in VATS in VR and I almost threw up. It was awesome.

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  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    Oh man, playing Doom 2 right now in VR, it is crazy good. You can get 3d base weapons and I'm just going to play this forever now. (at least until CP)

    I've got a big collection of WAD's already so this will be great.

    jdarksun
  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler Registered User regular
    Dixon wrote: »
    Oh man, playing Doom 2 right now in VR, it is crazy good. You can get 3d base weapons and I'm just going to play this forever now. (at least until CP)

    I've got a big collection of WAD's already so this will be great.
    Ludicrous gibs that sounds awesome

  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Dixon wrote: »
    Oh man, playing Doom 2 right now in VR, it is crazy good. You can get 3d base weapons and I'm just going to play this forever now. (at least until CP)

    I've got a big collection of WAD's already so this will be great.

    Seems like it'd be very easy to get motion sick in those games.

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  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    I got Doom 3 to work as well, it gets quite tense. Where you first grab the shotgun and the classic floor drop occurs...

    But yeah The early ones are just phenomenal. I’m not sure about motion sickness, I haven’t had that from VR before.

    It’s not as jarring as something like Skyrim, I remember my sister walking down one hallway in that game and turning white as a sheet.

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Indeed, Doom 3 works really well in VR, and some of the things that I didn't particularly like about the game may be reasons why it works so well in VR, such as the pacing. It's absolutely worth checking out for anyone who's got VR and who played Doom 3 back in the day.

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  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited October 20
    Yeah I just turned off the modeling of arms, the scariest part is when you twist your wrists in RL and in game the guys hands turn but the arms stay the same. They twist into tiny knots and it was horrifying lol...I did a slow clap in the bathroom in front of the mirror and was in stitches laughing.

    Dixon on
  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited October 20
    Sorry for the double post

    I've got Doom 1 and 2, completely running from the headset. There is an app called questzdoom that is an all-in-one interface, lets me add mods, improved textures, different wads and audio. It even downloads them for me, its so easy to use.

    In light of this, I just did some doom'ing in my back yard.

    EDIT:

    Quick vid of Doom 2 on Quest 2 E1M1

    It's pretty gory with the mods, just a warning.

    Dixon on
    Campy
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