[US Foreign Policy] Bounty, The Quicker Picker Upper

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    Ah, that might explain the R's only meet tonight then.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    The talking point seems to be that Trump was told the intel wasn’t credible so while he received it he was safe to ignore it

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    The talking point seems to be that Trump was told the intel wasn’t credible so while he received it he was safe to ignore it

    Because I'm sure that's what they told him, and that's why he totally went ahead and pushed russian interests.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Also we've moved from he didn't know to, he totally knew but it wasn't credible.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    That explains this spin from Sen. John Cornyn I read earlier today (context is on if/when Trump was briefed on the bounties).
    I think the president can’t single-handedly remember everything, I’m sure that he’s briefed on.

    See, Russian spies putting hits on US service members is just so mundane and forgettable! Let us who hasn’t forgotten to dry the laundry before bedtime cast the first stone.

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Preacher wrote: »
    Also we've moved from he didn't know to, he totally knew but it wasn't credible.

    Was just coming to say the same thing. So they lied through their teeth for several days that he was never briefed on it, but now we're supposed to believe this new excuse because they're totally telling the truth for realsies this time? Also that written brief seems to say the exact opposite:
    American officials provided a written briefing in late February to President Trump laying out their conclusion that a Russian military intelligence unit offered and paid bounties to Taliban-linked militants to kill U.S. and coalition troops in Afghanistan, two officials familiar with the matter said.

    Edit: So the Times report does go on to explain there was disagreement in the intelligence community of the strength of it. Meaning the excuse is so easy -The President was hyper focused on the unfolding pandemic and felt the disagreement within the intelligence community needed to be ironed out before he felt comfortable acting on it. But instead, because he's a lazy moron who won't be briefed, and lies on twitter daily, they spent several days trying to figure out if someone had told him, and now that they figured out he was informed, the excuses start flowing.

    Dark_Side on
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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Colorful Extrovert Registered User regular


    MSNBC Producer

    Oh yeah, they're gonna air all this shit out.

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    jesus fucking christ

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  • Marty81Marty81 Registered User regular
    *early* 2019? Holy shit

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Marty81 wrote: »
    *early* 2019? Holy shit

    Recall in 2019 he wanted to meet with the Taliban on 9/11 so he knew they were getting bounties from Russia to kill american soldiers and wanted to meet with them anyway.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    and so we're back to "what did the President know, and when did he know it?"

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    That escalated quickly

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Marty81 wrote: »
    *early* 2019? Holy shit

    Recall in 2019 he wanted to meet with the Taliban on 9/11 so he knew they were getting bounties from Russia to kill american soldiers and wanted to meet with them anyway.

    We're at war with the Taliban. Meeting with them to negotiate peace is perfectly within bounds diplomatically. What's fucked up is arguing Russia belongs back in the G7 while they pay bounties on US soldiers the Taliban is already motivated to kill.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    The Intelligence Community is absolutely not getting caught with the bag on this one

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Marty81 wrote: »
    *early* 2019? Holy shit

    Recall in 2019 he wanted to meet with the Taliban on 9/11 so he knew they were getting bounties from Russia to kill american soldiers and wanted to meet with them anyway.

    We're at war with the Taliban. Meeting with them to negotiate peace is perfectly within bounds diplomatically. What's fucked up is arguing Russia belongs back in the G7 while they pay bounties on US soldiers the Taliban is already motivated to kill.

    Inviting them to Camp David on 9/11 is a bit different from peace negotiations existing at all.

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  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    While the political value of impeaching Barr might have been an open question, surely this is the kind of thing that is a slam dunk for turning into hearings to get to the bottom of?

    It’s also stunning that their answer so far has been “the intelligence wasn’t credible/we didn’t know about it”, because it prevents them from doing the one thing that would smooth this over, ie actually condemning and acting against Russia in any way

    If this story had broken and the administration had immediately condemned Russia, then they could have hand waved the more awkward questions about why they had done nothing before. But now, when that condemnation does come, and then trump inevitably does his thing and fucks it up by praising Russia right after his admin has condemned them, it’s going to undercut their original point, that this wasn’t actionable or validated intelligence

    So they’re stuck. They can’t do the easy thing to assuage people and condemn Russia because they can’t admit they fucked up in the first place. It’s the perfect brew of all the administrations faults coming to a head. Once again.

    And their response is to only invite republicans to a briefing? That makes them look cowardly and with something to hide behind party lines.

    Prohass on
  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Marty81 wrote: »
    *early* 2019? Holy shit

    Recall in 2019 he wanted to meet with the Taliban on 9/11 so he knew they were getting bounties from Russia to kill american soldiers and wanted to meet with them anyway.

    We're at war with the Taliban. Meeting with them to negotiate peace is perfectly within bounds diplomatically. What's fucked up is arguing Russia belongs back in the G7 while they pay bounties on US soldiers the Taliban is already motivated to kill.

    Inviting them to Camp David on 9/11 is a bit different from peace negotiations existing at all.

    Sure but we've known about that particular bit since last year

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I know this is still a developing story, but if we get concrete evidence that what is being leaked is unrefutablably true, then I can’t see how Trump cannot be impeached again.

    Like, not in a jokingly “Trump lied about water, impeach agent orange lawl,” kinda way. But in an, “I for really, really mean it, this is worth any political risk, fuck pragmatism” kinda way. If ever there is but a single moment in all of reality to impeach the same President twice in the same year...

    Then we’re here, this is it or it’s never gonna happen.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    The Intelligence Community is absolutely not getting caught with the bag on this one

    I hope not. Edit: I hope so? Multiple negatives are confusing. I agree with your statement.

    But it wouldn't be the first time Trump has gone after them. And given his spiteful nature, and the precedent being set over the last months over at the DOJ, I'm seriously concerned about how far he'll go if it threatens his reelect.

    The complete fuckery of the IC infrastructure is on the table. And it's clear that this won't be a bridge too far for Republicans. They're ride or die through November with this guy. Flipping on him will piss off more from the right than will be gained from the left.

    And the base excuse is going to be the same one that Comey got from Democrats four years ago. That they shouldn't be "interfering in an election". Doesn't matter that Trump is a fucking criminal. That'll be the party line. That anything the IC say about the President is an immoral (if not illegal) attempt to undermine the President, and they should just stay quiet.

    MorganV on
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  • Mr RayMr Ray Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
    and so we're back to "what did the President know, and when did he know it?"

    We've established he's never going to actually be removed from office, but maybe we can try and make him the first President in history to be impeached twice. I'm game.

    Space.
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    and so we're back to "what did the President know, and when did he know it?"

    We've established he's never going to actually be removed from office, but maybe we can try and make him the first President in history to be impeached twice. I'm game.

    At this rate, given what's been sifting out of the WH lately, he might just throw an epic tantrum and resign?
    (shut up, let me have this)

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  • OremLKOremLK Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    I would say investigate the hell out of this for the next four months, have the ball rolling, keep it in the press, then impeach him again during the lame duck period.

    OremLK on
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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    I haven't seen this reported in thread... It's from about 36 hours ago.


    "Statement by DNI Ratcliffe: "I have confirmed that neither the President nor the Vice President were ever briefed on any intelligence alleged by the New York Times in its reporting yesterday." (1/2)"
    ""The White House statement addressing this issue earlier today, which denied such a briefing occurred, was accurate. The New York Times reporting, and all other subsequent news reports about such an alleged briefing are inaccurate.” (2/2)"
    - ODNIgov is the official account of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.

    As Senator Chris Murphy (Conneticut) said in direct response, "Either the DNI is lying (which is a massive problem) or the DNI withheld earthshaking information from President Trump bc he is so infantile and irrelevant that they’d rather he not know (which is...well...also a massive problem)."

    There's also a third option, that the office of the DNI is withholding the information about the briefings from Ratcliffe, covering for Grennell and backing up the President, which is a whole third massive problem.

    However, I await the clarification that the briefing happened before DNI Ratcliffe took office (May 26), and so it was all on Grennell. Because blame game musical chairs will be an attempt to distract from the fact that Ratcliffe categorical in his statement.

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    Ratcliffe could read the PDBs himself if he wanted, I doubt they are witholding it from him

  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    speaking of PDBs, for those curious what is in the presidential daily brief a lot of the old declassified ones are available online at the CIA reading room site

    my favorite one is October 5 1973:
    "The military exercises underway in Egypt seem to be on a larger scale and are being conducted more realistically than previous ones but they do not appear to be preparations for an offensive against Israel."
    October 6 1973: "LATE ITEM: Egypt and Syria are planning a coordinated attack on the Suez Canal and the Golan before nightfall today"

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Ratcliffe could read the PDBs himself if he wanted, I doubt they are witholding it from him

    It's the least likely thing, with Ratcliffe being completely full of shit, but with this administration, it's definitely not a non-zero chance. I could absolutely believe that Grennell installed flunkies in the DNI to support the President's position, and this Admin's history of keeping information that's damaging to the President is already suspect.

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    A followup.


    "The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which last night said Trump and Pence never got a briefing on Russia bounty intel, is declining this morning to say whether the intel was included in a written President's Daily Brief"
    - Josh Lederman is a national political reporter for NBCNews, and former AP White House reporter.

    Yeah, that's not fucking suspicious, or an immediate backpedalling. Seems like they're going to go with "It was in the PDB, but the President consistently refuses to do his fucking job and read it" approach.

    Which will probably work, because noone appears to think this President should actually do the job of President. It's fucking infuriating.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    One story has cited a specific date (February 27). That kind of specifics are generally not made up.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    I mean we know the man's opinions on reading; even if it was in the briefing book he wouldn't have known it unless someone made him a flashcard

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    This is from the top page article on CNN right now
    David Priess, a former CIA officer who wrote a book about the President's Daily Brief, rejected McEnany's reasoning.
    "This is exactly the kind of thing that the President's Daily Brief was created for, to make sure that the President had the most up-to-date analysis and assessment of what is almost always uncertain intelligence. You don't put things in the President's Daily Brief only when they are completely corroborated and verified," Priess told CNN.
    Two former senior intelligence officials told CNN's Jamie Gangel that it was "inconceivable" in any previous White House that the president would not have been informed of such grave intelligence and that the commander in chief would be briefed with caveats included.
    The idea that the intelligence was not sufficiently corroborated to take to Trump was further undermined by the fact that Washington appears to have discussed it with its foreign partners. Over the weekend, a European military intelligence official told CNN that the scheme by Russia's military intelligence agency had caused coalition casualties.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/30/politics/donald-trump-russia-taliban-phone-calls/index.html

    Basically, "Trump didn't wanna read it/is too incompetent to pay attention" isn't gonna fly this time

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    This is from the top page article on CNN right now
    David Priess, a former CIA officer who wrote a book about the President's Daily Brief, rejected McEnany's reasoning.
    "This is exactly the kind of thing that the President's Daily Brief was created for, to make sure that the President had the most up-to-date analysis and assessment of what is almost always uncertain intelligence. You don't put things in the President's Daily Brief only when they are completely corroborated and verified," Priess told CNN.
    Two former senior intelligence officials told CNN's Jamie Gangel that it was "inconceivable" in any previous White House that the president would not have been informed of such grave intelligence and that the commander in chief would be briefed with caveats included.
    The idea that the intelligence was not sufficiently corroborated to take to Trump was further undermined by the fact that Washington appears to have discussed it with its foreign partners. Over the weekend, a European military intelligence official told CNN that the scheme by Russia's military intelligence agency had caused coalition casualties.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/30/politics/donald-trump-russia-taliban-phone-calls/index.html

    Basically, "Trump didn't wanna read it/is too incompetent to pay attention" isn't gonna fly this time

    The other issue that's not being covered nearly enough, is that even if EVERYTHING from the President, VP, Press Secretary and DNI Ratcliffe was true, is that it's been THREE FUCKING DAYS.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghanistan-bounties.html

    And there hasn't been a fucking peep out of the Administration condemning the Russians. Just condemnation of the paper reporting on it.

    Not answering it on the same day (don't know the time it dropped Friday), I can buy. Need to check the sources, find out what the fuck is going on, then either condemning Putin if true, or actively denying the intel if false (which they have been careful as fuck not to do).
    EDIT: That's assuming NYT didn't give the Administration a heads up before running it, asking for a comment for the story before publication, which may well have happened, or not.

    Not answering it Saturday, and going golfing, is a bad fucking look.

    Not answering it Sunday, and going golfing AGAIN, is "I don't give a fuck.

    Not answering it Monday, is pants on head fucking complicity at this point.

    I mean, we all know WHY he won't condemn Putin. Maybe not the specifics (corruption, blackmail, cronyism, fawning adoration, all of the above, take your pick), but it's clear as fucking day that Putin has Trump compromised.

    MorganV on
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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Stupid "quoted instead of editted" mistake.

    MorganV on
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Has anyone pointed out the hypocrisy of trump ringing in this year by assassinating an Iranian general who was linked to the death's of mercenaries while failing to even acknowledge a russian plot against the Armed forces?

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/29/politics/trump-phone-calls-national-security-concerns/index.html
    (CNN)In hundreds of highly classified phone calls with foreign heads of state, President Donald Trump was so consistently unprepared for discussion of serious issues, so often outplayed in his conversations with powerful leaders like Russian President Vladimir Putin and Turkish President Recep Erdogan, and so abusive to leaders of America's principal allies, that the calls helped convince some senior US officials -- including his former secretaries of state and defense, two national security advisers and his longest-serving chief of staff -- that the President himself posed a danger to the national security of the United States, according to White House and intelligence officials intimately familiar with the contents of the conversations.

    The calls caused former top Trump deputies -- including national security advisers H.R. McMaster and John Bolton, Defense Secretary James Mattis, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, and White House chief of staff John Kelly, as well as intelligence officials -- to conclude that the President was often "delusional," as two sources put it, in his dealings with foreign leaders. The sources said there was little evidence that the President became more skillful or competent in his telephone conversations with most heads of state over time. Rather, he continued to believe that he could either charm, jawbone or bully almost any foreign leader into capitulating to his will, and often pursued goals more attuned to his own agenda than what many of his senior advisers considered the national interest.
    One person familiar with almost all the conversations with the leaders of Russia, Turkey, Canada, Australia and western Europe described the calls cumulatively as 'abominations' so grievous to US national security interests that if members of Congress heard from witnesses to the actual conversations or read the texts and contemporaneous notes, even many senior Republican members would no longer be able to retain confidence in the President.
    But his most vicious attacks, said the sources, were aimed at women heads of state. In conversations with both May and Merkel, the President demeaned and denigrated them in diatribes described as "near-sadistic" by one of the sources and confirmed by others. "Some of the things he said to Angela Merkel are just unbelievable: he called her 'stupid,' and accused her of being in the pocket of the Russians ... He's toughest [in the phone calls] with those he looks at as weaklings and weakest with the ones he ought to be tough with."

    The calls "are so unusual," confirmed a German official, that special measures were taken in Berlin to ensure that their contents remained secret. The official described Trump's behavior with Merkel in the calls as "very aggressive" and said that the circle of German officials involved in monitoring Merkel's calls with Trump has shrunk: "It's just a small circle of people who are involved and the reason, the main reason, is that they are indeed problematic."
    That source has way too much faith in Congress.

    No, I think he might be right. I also think those Republicans KNOW that and that's why their impeachment strategy was 10% "NO U" and 90% "Lalalala I can't hear you L
    lalalala."

    Ticaldfjam
  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Colorful Extrovert Registered User regular


    Southpaw is a law dog, quoting the NYT.

    More confirmation of the underlying story.

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  • OghulkOghulk Registered User regular
    There is...a lot...of intelligence being sourced/leaked in the last 24 hours.

    Like the specifics here are absolutely going to point to very specific people knowing. The IC looks like they're saying "burn the bridge, dry the river, salt the earth"

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  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    Have we finally reached the point where Trump effed up so bad that no one wants to cover for him?

    Gaddez
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Have we finally reached the point where Trump effed up so bad that no one wants to cover for him?

    Senate Republicans are still covering for him.

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  • I ZimbraI Zimbra Colorful Extrovert Registered User regular
    Have we finally reached the point where Trump effed up so bad that no one wants to cover for him?

    I'm guessing it's some combination of the seriousness of the underlying offense, his attempt to pawn off the blame onto the intelligence community, and his new-found (apparent) vulnerability.

    Commander ZoomElvenshae
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    The thing with the republicans is that they're the political equivlant of cannibals; at the first hint of weakness they pounce on each other and right now all of them are likely doing calculus to figure out whether it's better to flip on trump now or after the election.

    Because right now trump has:
    • Screwed up farmers by blind firing tariffs and been forced to bail them out at least twice.
    • Utterly failed to deal with the civil unrest following the events in mineapolis and instead exacerbated tensions.
    • Refused to acknowledge the seriousness of Covid-19 and as a result Texas and Florida (both critical to any victory) are now facing horrific consequences.
    • The highest unemployment since the great depression.
    • During his first public rally in months he drew about 30% of seating capacity.
    • Social media sites are beginning to push back against him.
    • He can't even articulate what his plan for the next term would be.
    • His ongoing bromance with racists.
    • And now him apparently being either ignorant or ok with the fact that russia has been paying the taliban.

    Dude is weak, even after the herculean efforts to prop him up that the GOP has had to mount in his defense, so I could absolutely see some of the party elders informing trump that he has a choice: Tag in Pence or try and do this shit without the support of the party.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    TicaldfjamMild ConfusionFencingsaxElvenshaeCommander ZoomVeaglemrpakuLocal H JayBullheadJoolanderMan in the Mists
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