In the [US Economy] the Bean Counters are Batty

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    You could always buy nut milk, which despite still having environmental issues is still vastly better than milk in that regard.

    Where would I put my nut milk though?

    A nut milk bag?

    tyrannus
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    A rule of thumb I saw a lot when we were condo shopping is that it generally takes ~7 years for a home to be worth considering resale at the earliest, thanks to all the closing costs, and real estate transaction fees, &c. (Barring ridiculous growth in evaluation, but that's not something to bank on. Even in San Francisco)

    Buying a home typically makes a lot of sense if you are planning on putting down roots and want to stay somewhere for the medium-long term. But if you don't know where you'll be in 5 years, it's better to rent and not risk all the associated costs. Even if you think you'll be in a different state/ city a decade from now it's an iffy prospect. While home value should keep up with inflation... 2008 did happen.

    CelestialBadgerGnome-InterruptusGiggles_FunsworthmRahmani
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    By me they did a property tax reassessment a little while back

    I imagine lots of the folks who thought they'd made a good investment had their math flip on its ear when their property taxes went up 200%

    Giggles_Funsworth
  • Schmimpy Pim- no god what am I sayingSchmimpy Pim- no god what am I saying Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Couscous wrote: »
    You could always buy nut milk, which despite still having environmental issues is still vastly better than milk in that regard.

    Where would I put my nut milk though?

    A nut milk bag?

    Oh you think this is funny do you? You think juicin nuts all day so people will have that good hot nut juice to guzzle down is somethin to laugh about huh?

    Schmimpy Pim- no god what am I saying on
    Captain InertiaFoolOnTheHill
  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    Tumin wrote: »
    Supposedly dairy farmers are raising prices because if they don"t theyll go bankrupt, but the market had an oversupply of milk at the same time. Demand is way down and they never cut back production even with plenty of small operators folding.

    Seems like they are going to go bankrupt but maybe it helps on the insurance side somehow? Seems fishy.

    It's not an "if", they are. Dean Foods, the largest dairy farm in the US filed for it back in November: CNBC article. If you go down the article, you'll see where cow milk consumption is hitting historic lows. But, you should ask yourself, why would you not simply sell the milk to cheese makers or reduce the amount of cattle you have or, better yet, find overseas markets?

    I don't have a good answer. I'm not sure how these farmers would normally respond to a few down years or what the ideal situation would be. All I've been able to dig up is that the consolidation in grocery chains has been hindering upstream producers for several years now. Some of those chain closures were engineered through leveraged buyouts, hedge funds, and greed while others have been done in by inability to keep up with the times. That is unable to adapt their practices to contemporary technological demands or product tastes.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Tumin wrote: »
    Supposedly dairy farmers are raising prices because if they don"t theyll go bankrupt, but the market had an oversupply of milk at the same time. Demand is way down and they never cut back production even with plenty of small operators folding.

    Seems like they are going to go bankrupt but maybe it helps on the insurance side somehow? Seems fishy.

    It's not an "if", they are. Dean Foods, the largest dairy farm in the US filed for it back in November: CNBC article. If you go down the article, you'll see where cow milk consumption is hitting historic lows. But, you should ask yourself, why would you not simply sell the milk to cheese makers or reduce the amount of cattle you have or, better yet, find overseas markets?

    I don't have a good answer. I'm not sure how these farmers would normally respond to a few down years or what the ideal situation would be. All I've been able to dig up is that the consolidation in grocery chains has been hindering upstream producers for several years now. Some of those chain closures were engineered through leveraged buyouts, hedge funds, and greed while others have been done in by inability to keep up with the times. That is unable to adapt their practices to contemporary technological demands or product tastes.

    This is also a big reason the US dairy industry has been desperate to get it's claws into the canadian dairy market.

    Gnome-InterruptusGiggles_FunsworthmonikerAegisSkeithMartini_PhilosopherLord_AsmodeusTNTrooperFencingsaxKayne Red RobeBullheadnever die
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    From what I remember reading, basically the only way out of the mess outside of allowing pretty much the collapse of all but a few dairy operators that creates an noncompetitive oligopoly would be to have more government controls over the milk supply.

    But the larger dairy operators don't like that idea for reasons that might be obvious.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/08/dairy-farmers-socialism-1330613
    These ideas cause a rift between small and larger dairies in the U.S. This reality makes national trade associations and milk cooperatives hesitant to take up the cause, as well as lawmakers on Capitol Hill.

    “We are hearing two arguments: that it’s a wealth transfer, and it’s socialism,” Bylsma said. “Well, socialism is when a few people make decisions for the rest of us. We’re headed for a situation where a few players will control the market.”
    In Wisconsin, where hundreds of dairy farmers have exited the business at a rate of nearly two a day in 2018, the state reconvened a task force to devise a long-term strategy.

    The task force, chaired by Stephenson of the University of Wisconsin–Madison, made 51 recommendations mostly focused on building demand, in part because it is less controversial than addressing supply issues.

    Supply management was considered, including a two-tiered milk pricing plan, but ultimately voted down.

    “Proponents say smaller farms have greater costs, so they should be paid more. This is where you back up and say, but why?” Stephenson added. “In any industry, if you can cut costs out of system, shouldn’t you do that and reap the rewards?”

    The task force instead recommended boosting exports, creating new value-added products like specialty cheeses and encouraging investment in agri-tourism.

    It also proposed marketing efforts like adding more fluid milk in schools, as well as getting FDA to crack down on plant-based products using terms as “milk” or “yogurt,” a move the agency is already exploring.
    Given the current political situation, I can't see any supply management scheme making it through congress so I guess noncompetitive oligopoly it is.

    shrykeGnome-InterruptusMartini_PhilosopherKayne Red RobeRingo
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    If milk becomes less popular, dairy farms should change to growing foods that are gaining in popularity. That's capitalism for you.

    SleepGiggles_FunsworthL Ron HowardCommander ZoomGiantGeek2020ColanutBullheadMoridin889brynhrtmnMr FuzzbuttEinzelEnc
  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    From what I remember reading, basically the only way out of the mess outside of allowing pretty much the collapse of all but a few dairy operators that creates an noncompetitive oligopoly would be to have more government controls over the milk supply.

    But the larger dairy operators don't like that idea for reasons that might be obvious.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/08/dairy-farmers-socialism-1330613
    These ideas cause a rift between small and larger dairies in the U.S. This reality makes national trade associations and milk cooperatives hesitant to take up the cause, as well as lawmakers on Capitol Hill.

    “We are hearing two arguments: that it’s a wealth transfer, and it’s socialism,” Bylsma said. “Well, socialism is when a few people make decisions for the rest of us. We’re headed for a situation where a few players will control the market.”
    In Wisconsin, where hundreds of dairy farmers have exited the business at a rate of nearly two a day in 2018, the state reconvened a task force to devise a long-term strategy.

    The task force, chaired by Stephenson of the University of Wisconsin–Madison, made 51 recommendations mostly focused on building demand, in part because it is less controversial than addressing supply issues.

    Supply management was considered, including a two-tiered milk pricing plan, but ultimately voted down.

    “Proponents say smaller farms have greater costs, so they should be paid more. This is where you back up and say, but why?” Stephenson added. “In any industry, if you can cut costs out of system, shouldn’t you do that and reap the rewards?”

    The task force instead recommended boosting exports, creating new value-added products like specialty cheeses and encouraging investment in agri-tourism.

    It also proposed marketing efforts like adding more fluid milk in schools, as well as getting FDA to crack down on plant-based products using terms as “milk” or “yogurt,” a move the agency is already exploring.
    Given the current political situation, I can't see any supply management scheme making it through congress so I guess noncompetitive oligopoly it is.

    Once the giant factory farms were allowed with limited environmental regulations it was always going to head towards oligopoly. Then the fun times is if any democratic legislature takes effect and puts all the clean water stuff back into place those factory farms suddenly find themselves unable to comply and may wind up getting driven out of business too.

    Gnome-InterruptusDavid WalgasGiggles_FunsworthL Ron HowardNobodyMvrckMartini_PhilosopherPhoenix-DFencingsaxBullheadMoridin889Einzel
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    If milk becomes less popular, dairy farms should change to growing foods that are gaining in popularity. That's capitalism for you.

    I remember hearing about this in Econ a million years ago. The price of milk has a hard time stabilizing. If the price goes down, and people go under and exit the market, then the few dairies that remain can raise the price to exorbitant levels. This makes milk more profitable, so a bunch of new dairies open/re-open, but the costs for doing so are expensive. By the time they're up and running, there's a milk glut on the market again, and the cycle repeats.

    So it's easier to just control the price of milk.

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

    monikerGiggles_FunsworthGiantGeek2020
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    If milk becomes less popular, dairy farms should change to growing foods that are gaining in popularity. That's capitalism for you.

    I remember hearing about this in Econ a million years ago. The price of milk has a hard time stabilizing. If the price goes down, and people go under and exit the market, then the few dairies that remain can raise the price to exorbitant levels. This makes milk more profitable, so a bunch of new dairies open/re-open, but the costs for doing so are expensive. By the time they're up and running, there's a milk glut on the market again, and the cycle repeats.

    So it's easier to just control the price of milk.

    Plant milk is probably a lot easier to ramp production up and down on than cow milk, since you don't need to breed living animals and build living and milking sheds for an oat.

    Kayne Red Robe
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Can you cook with plant milk though? That's my hesitation to switching and I don't really drink it I just use it in certain recipes.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Can you cook with plant milk though? That's my hesitation to switching and I don't really drink it I just use it in certain recipes.

    Was just curious about this with oat milk and it appears to mostly be a 1:1 substitution. They talk about cases it might not be the case with like stuff you have to whip up but didn't give examples.

    SleepFencingsax
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    If milk becomes less popular, dairy farms should change to growing foods that are gaining in popularity. That's capitalism for you.

    I remember hearing about this in Econ a million years ago. The price of milk has a hard time stabilizing. If the price goes down, and people go under and exit the market, then the few dairies that remain can raise the price to exorbitant levels. This makes milk more profitable, so a bunch of new dairies open/re-open, but the costs for doing so are expensive. By the time they're up and running, there's a milk glut on the market again, and the cycle repeats.

    So it's easier to just control the price of milk.
    This is fairly true of a lot of agriculture businesses. The boom bust cycle hardly helps the producers who were destroyed during the busts while there is unlikely to be new entrants when the survivors gobbled up most of it and the business is not so lucrative that it makes sense to spend the capital becoming a competitor

    monikerchrishallett83BlackDragon480
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Can you cook with plant milk though? That's my hesitation to switching and I don't really drink it I just use it in certain recipes.

    Yeah, it's not great. I drink a lot of tea and coffee so that's what I use it for. For cooking I generally use real milk.

    Kayne Red RobeEinzelDark Raven X
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Something I've always found interesting is the price of gas and milk in relation to each other.

    It's ... probably not especially useful or indicative of anything specific, but it's always a neat comparison for me, because I've always found them to be relatively close together.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Can you cook with plant milk though? That's my hesitation to switching and I don't really drink it I just use it in certain recipes.

    Yeah, it's not great. I drink a lot of tea and coffee so that's what I use it for. For cooking I generally use real milk.

    Yeah. Cooking is essentially chemistry at which point it becomes difficult to substitute things if you want your dish to come out the same. Milk behaves very differently molecularly from almond milk. I use the latter for smoothies all the time but when I want thicker, fluffier eggs it's gonna be milk or cream.

    CelestialBadgerMartini_PhilosophershrykeVishNubFencingsaxKayne Red RobeMoridin889
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    You can always make a solution of actual cream and whatever milk substitute you use that ends up having enough volume and enough milk fat that it should work.

    Assuming the milk substitutes still have sugars and proteins in them.

    Iirc milk is just fat, sugar, and protein. Molecularly speaking

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  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Something I've always found interesting is the price of gas and milk in relation to each other.

    It's ... probably not especially useful or indicative of anything specific, but it's always a neat comparison for me, because I've always found them to be relatively close together.

    The prices being similar is a coincidence, but the price trend of milk tends to follow gas price changes pretty closely due to razor-thin margins and how much transport costs factor in to the final price of milk.

    Giggles_FunsworthmonikerBlackDragon480FencingsaxMoridin889
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Tumin wrote: »
    Supposedly dairy farmers are raising prices because if they don"t theyll go bankrupt, but the market had an oversupply of milk at the same time. Demand is way down and they never cut back production even with plenty of small operators folding.

    Seems like they are going to go bankrupt but maybe it helps on the insurance side somehow? Seems fishy.

    It's not an "if", they are. Dean Foods, the largest dairy farm in the US filed for it back in November: CNBC article. If you go down the article, you'll see where cow milk consumption is hitting historic lows. But, you should ask yourself, why would you not simply sell the milk to cheese makers or reduce the amount of cattle you have or, better yet, find overseas markets?

    I don't have a good answer. I'm not sure how these farmers would normally respond to a few down years or what the ideal situation would be. All I've been able to dig up is that the consolidation in grocery chains has been hindering upstream producers for several years now. Some of those chain closures were engineered through leveraged buyouts, hedge funds, and greed while others have been done in by inability to keep up with the times. That is unable to adapt their practices to contemporary technological demands or product tastes.

    They have been converting it to cheese since it's shelf stable compared to liquid milk. We now have a cheese glut.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683339929/nobody-is-moving-our-cheese-american-surplus-reaches-record-high

    And slaughtering dairy cows for meat early takes away any chance to use them to produce milk when the price eventually stabilizes. It's not like you can idle a cow and then turn it back on the same way you can a factory. You have to birth a new one and raise it.

    CelestialBadgerMartini_PhilosophershrykeFencingsax
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Tumin wrote: »
    Supposedly dairy farmers are raising prices because if they don"t theyll go bankrupt, but the market had an oversupply of milk at the same time. Demand is way down and they never cut back production even with plenty of small operators folding.

    Seems like they are going to go bankrupt but maybe it helps on the insurance side somehow? Seems fishy.

    It's not an "if", they are. Dean Foods, the largest dairy farm in the US filed for it back in November: CNBC article. If you go down the article, you'll see where cow milk consumption is hitting historic lows. But, you should ask yourself, why would you not simply sell the milk to cheese makers or reduce the amount of cattle you have or, better yet, find overseas markets?

    I don't have a good answer. I'm not sure how these farmers would normally respond to a few down years or what the ideal situation would be. All I've been able to dig up is that the consolidation in grocery chains has been hindering upstream producers for several years now. Some of those chain closures were engineered through leveraged buyouts, hedge funds, and greed while others have been done in by inability to keep up with the times. That is unable to adapt their practices to contemporary technological demands or product tastes.

    They have been converting it to cheese since it's shelf stable compared to liquid milk. We now have a cheese glut.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683339929/nobody-is-moving-our-cheese-american-surplus-reaches-record-high

    And slaughtering dairy cows for meat early takes away any chance to use them to produce milk when the price eventually stabilizes. It's not like you can idle a cow and then turn it back on the same way you can a factory. You have to birth a new one and raise it.

    finally, my hour has arrived.

    a5ehrenCommander ZoomBlackDragon480kimeQuidForarmonikerMartini_PhilosopherMetzger MeisterBurnage38thDoeLord_AsmodeusTNTrooperCowSharkTynnanGiantGeek2020Sanguinius666264Kayne Red RobeStabbity StyleLucedesRiusDark Raven XArchFoolOnTheHillThe Sauce
  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Something I've always found interesting is the price of gas and milk in relation to each other.

    It's ... probably not especially useful or indicative of anything specific, but it's always a neat comparison for me, because I've always found them to be relatively close together.

    Entirely dependent on subsidies at the state levels , state and local gas taxes, and location relative to dairies and refineries. Where I live in Missouri I'm less than 20 miles from a refinery so gas right now is about $2.09 a gallon, whereas a gallon of whole milk is $3.89 at my prefered local grocery store.

    First they came for the Muslims and we said...NOT TODAY MOTHERFUCKERS!
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    cometh the gouda, cometh the man.

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    XaquinKaroz
  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Tumin wrote: »
    Supposedly dairy farmers are raising prices because if they don"t theyll go bankrupt, but the market had an oversupply of milk at the same time. Demand is way down and they never cut back production even with plenty of small operators folding.

    Seems like they are going to go bankrupt but maybe it helps on the insurance side somehow? Seems fishy.

    It's not an "if", they are. Dean Foods, the largest dairy farm in the US filed for it back in November: CNBC article. If you go down the article, you'll see where cow milk consumption is hitting historic lows. But, you should ask yourself, why would you not simply sell the milk to cheese makers or reduce the amount of cattle you have or, better yet, find overseas markets?

    I don't have a good answer. I'm not sure how these farmers would normally respond to a few down years or what the ideal situation would be. All I've been able to dig up is that the consolidation in grocery chains has been hindering upstream producers for several years now. Some of those chain closures were engineered through leveraged buyouts, hedge funds, and greed while others have been done in by inability to keep up with the times. That is unable to adapt their practices to contemporary technological demands or product tastes.

    They have been converting it to cheese since it's shelf stable compared to liquid milk. We now have a cheese glut.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683339929/nobody-is-moving-our-cheese-american-surplus-reaches-record-high

    And slaughtering dairy cows for meat early takes away any chance to use them to produce milk when the price eventually stabilizes. It's not like you can idle a cow and then turn it back on the same way you can a factory. You have to birth a new one and raise it.

    finally, my hour has arrived.

    Time to start putting fresh shredded queso on everything.

    First they came for the Muslims and we said...NOT TODAY MOTHERFUCKERS!
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Tumin wrote: »
    Supposedly dairy farmers are raising prices because if they don"t theyll go bankrupt, but the market had an oversupply of milk at the same time. Demand is way down and they never cut back production even with plenty of small operators folding.

    Seems like they are going to go bankrupt but maybe it helps on the insurance side somehow? Seems fishy.

    It's not an "if", they are. Dean Foods, the largest dairy farm in the US filed for it back in November: CNBC article. If you go down the article, you'll see where cow milk consumption is hitting historic lows. But, you should ask yourself, why would you not simply sell the milk to cheese makers or reduce the amount of cattle you have or, better yet, find overseas markets?

    I don't have a good answer. I'm not sure how these farmers would normally respond to a few down years or what the ideal situation would be. All I've been able to dig up is that the consolidation in grocery chains has been hindering upstream producers for several years now. Some of those chain closures were engineered through leveraged buyouts, hedge funds, and greed while others have been done in by inability to keep up with the times. That is unable to adapt their practices to contemporary technological demands or product tastes.

    They have been converting it to cheese since it's shelf stable compared to liquid milk. We now have a cheese glut.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683339929/nobody-is-moving-our-cheese-american-surplus-reaches-record-high

    And slaughtering dairy cows for meat early takes away any chance to use them to produce milk when the price eventually stabilizes. It's not like you can idle a cow and then turn it back on the same way you can a factory. You have to birth a new one and raise it.

    finally, my hour has arrived.

    Time to start putting fresh shredded queso on everything.

    way ahead of you

    KarozCommander ZoomnexuscrawlerTNTrooperGiantGeek2020LovelyBullheadLucedesRiusExtreaminatusThe Sauce
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    ButtersGnome-InterruptusHeffling
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    [
    enc0re wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    There's also the fact that, for a lot of employees, the ability to move with a job is also an asset. I know that, personally, I would not have had several career opportunities if I had had to delay accepting an offer because I could not sell my house or needed to be close enough to maintain things as a landlord.

    And God help someone who is tied to a mortgage in an area that suddenly deindustrializes. Little is worse than the primary employer shutting down, losing your job, and finding out that you home value is suddenly lower than your mortgage even if you could sell it.

    Giggles_FunsworthIncenjucarGnome-InterruptusTicaldfjamMoridin889L Ron Howard
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    Rental costs cover repairs in the way a banana hammock covers your junk. I guess technically it's true but realistically it's not really doing the job. Ownership isn't just about lifestyle. The incentives for landlords are very different then for owner occupants.

    NSDFRandBullheadL Ron Howard
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    enc0re wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    The point I think you're missing is that part of the rent price is profit for the landlord. They don't rent out of the goodness of their hearts. So if you're renting you're paying some amount of money to make the landlord richer. If you buy, that money is making you richer.

    Now as everyone has pointed out the math can get more complicated, and it's not as simple as saying the price difference between renting and mortgage is the profit you keep, but that extra money is real. And often times it means owning leaves you with more money later on. Hence, owning often is a worthwhile investment.

    Jebus314 on
    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
    shrykeGiggles_FunsworthMartini_PhilosopherAegisFencingsaxToxOrcaNSDFRandkimeHefflingBullheadchrishallett83mRahmaniSmrtnikL Ron Howard
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    You can always make a solution of actual cream and whatever milk substitute you use that ends up having enough volume and enough milk fat that it should work.

    Assuming the milk substitutes still have sugars and proteins in them.

    Iirc milk is just fat, sugar, and protein. Molecularly speaking

    I don't think so. At least not from what I've seen. They are mainly fat, sugar, and protein, but they're different kinds that behave differently. Sometimes they substitute fine, other times not so much.

    VishNubBlackDragon480Martini_PhilosopherDuke 2.0Movitz
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    Rental costs cover repairs in the way a banana hammock covers your junk. I guess technically it's true but realistically it's not really doing the job. Ownership isn't just about lifestyle. The incentives for landlords are very different then for owner occupants.

    Depends on the nature of the repair. If the air conditioner or water heater in your apartment just straight up dies there's a good chance your property manager will get it squared away. If they are just doing a shit job there's a better chance they don't do anything about it because they technically work.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters
    Bullheadnever die
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    Rental costs cover repairs in the way a banana hammock covers your junk. I guess technically it's true but realistically it's not really doing the job. Ownership isn't just about lifestyle. The incentives for landlords are very different then for owner occupants.

    Depends on the nature of the repair. If the air conditioner or water heater in your apartment just straight up dies there's a good chance your property manager will get it squared away. If they are just doing a shit job there's a better chance they don't do anything about it because they technically work.

    Even if they get it squared away, it will be for the minimum they can get away with.

    Kayne Red RobeBullheadnever dieL Ron Howard
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    I've lived mostly in larger apartment complexes and when appliances have taken a shit they were always replaced with new units of similar quality. But again they had to have failed entirely. My last apartment had a shitty air conditioner that was never replaced because it would still run even though not well enough to actually cool the apartment

    Butters on
    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    The point I think you're missing is that part of the rent price is profit for the landlord. They don't rent out of the goodness of their hearts. So if you're renting you're paying some amount of money to make the landlord richer. If you buy, that money is making you richer.

    Now as everyone has pointed out the math can get more complicated, and it's not as simple as saying the price difference between renting and mortgage is the profit you keep, but that extra money is real. And often times it means owning leaves you with more money later on. Hence, owning often is a worthwhile investment.

    And the landlord is carrying the risk of losing money if housing prices crash.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
    Orca
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Which is not a real risk in many cities.

    It would be nice if it were.

    Couscous on
    Jebus314Giggles_FunsworthDavid WalgasBullheadmRahmani
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    The point I think you're missing is that part of the rent price is profit for the landlord. They don't rent out of the goodness of their hearts. So if you're renting you're paying some amount of money to make the landlord richer. If you buy, that money is making you richer.

    Now as everyone has pointed out the math can get more complicated, and it's not as simple as saying the price difference between renting and mortgage is the profit you keep, but that extra money is real. And often times it means owning leaves you with more money later on. Hence, owning often is a worthwhile investment.

    The landlord's profit is their return on capital investment + risk. It's true that you can capture that profit if you make your own capital investment, likely leveraged > 4.0, and with the associated risk. Again, I have nothing against owner-occupying. In fact, I think owner-occupied units bestow positive externalities onto their neighborhoods. It can be profitable. But there are many avenues to make profit. Don't choose this if you don't want the lifestyle to begin with.

    Let me put it this way. My wife and I have both owned houses by ourselves. We agree that we would never do that again, because the demands of a house are so much on a single person.

    enc0re on
    Gnome-InterruptusMartini_PhilosopherLucedes
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Before we get anyone too excited about buying a house though: depreciation, maintenance, repairs, taxes, and transaction costs are expenses not to be underestimated.

    Buy a house for the lifestyle, not as an investment. A low-cost mutual fund is a way better place to save your money.

    Most of that is already bundled in to rental prices, though. My coworker pays more in rent than I do for a 15 year mortgage, and it's not because his apartment is nicer than my house. Meanwhile, after 6 years I have around $80,000 of equity in my house, and he... doesn't. Obviously this various from region to region but the long term math usually works in favor of owning.

    That said, if you do want to own, I would highly encourage learning to do some basic repairs on your own. You can patch up a lot of stuff with a few wrenches and a drill that would normally be hundreds of dollars to call someone for.

    This is exactly my point. Rent includes expenses beyond what a mortgage covers, for example repairs. So it’s not right to compare just your mortgage to your friend’s rent.

    You can save on repair costs if you learn to be handy. Which brings me back to: buy a house for the lifestyle.

    If you want to be in a place a decade plus, and if it’s important that nobody can force you to move (very relevant for kids), if you are willing to learn a wide(!) variety of repair and maintenance tasks; buying a home is great.

    But it’s nothing like renting. If you enjoy “I can walk away from this apartment to spend two months somewhere else and not worry about a thing” or “I don’t have to have $3,000 ready to go just in case the furnace breaks”, then don’t buy a house. You’ll be miserable.

    Rental costs cover repairs in the way a banana hammock covers your junk. I guess technically it's true but realistically it's not really doing the job. Ownership isn't just about lifestyle. The incentives for landlords are very different then for owner occupants.

    Depends on the nature of the repair. If the air conditioner or water heater in your apartment just straight up dies there's a good chance your property manager will get it squared away. If they are just doing a shit job there's a better chance they don't do anything about it because they technically work.

    Even if they get it squared away, it will be for the minimum they can get away with.

    Depends on the landlord. I had mostly good experiences when I rented from small time folks in Chicago. Some friends have had horror stories, and I'm pretty sure one rented from a literal mobbed up slumlord.

    When you own you have control over that (within some HOA guidelines. We have to use a certain plumber to make sure the work is up to standard), but also bear all the cost. So a new fridge can be as nice as you can afford. Which...might be less nice than my landlord would have gotten, depending on timing.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    It's just too conditional of a situation for there to be any 'right' answer. In my situation, buying at any point in my life would have been a terrible mistake, but that is just me.

    Gnome-Interruptusenc0rezekebeaumonikerMartini_PhilosopherkimeButtersQuidL Ron Howard
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Milk sales in the us fell 11% over five years

    https://www.dairyreporter.com/Article/2017/03/16/US-dairy-milk-sales-expected-to-decline-until-2020-report-shows

    The global milk market is $120billion, the non-dairy milk is $18billion, less than 10%

    Walmart decided to make their own milk, so deans lost their biggest customer. Dean went from $43million in operating cash flow in 2018 to less than $3million in 2019. That's piss poor management, not a year end 2% decline in milk sales.

    The management that ran Dean into the ground has to blame someone that isn't themselves, so they took aim at non-dairy milk, which really, had very little impact, but sounds good because of oat milk hype! Cover your ass and whatnot

    Dean foods blaming non-dairy milk for their bankruptcy is equivalent to Kodak saying "cryptocurrency" and "block chain" during their January 2019 earnings report and spiking the stock price from $3 to $9 because tech buzz words.

    Burtletoy on
    Ringo
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    At the same time, it's mad that there were at least two suppliers able to supply Walmart's demand for milk.
    That has to be a sign that there's massive overproduction going on.

    Tastyfish on
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