They absolutely had a plan. The first two movies and the treverrow script line up too well.
According to the actors, both RJ's TLJ script and Treverrow's script were not the original plan. JJ had written the TFA script, and had draft treatments written for both Ep 8. and Ep 9. According to Daisy Ridley, RJ scrapped everything JJ had written for Ep 8, and completely re-wrote it.. It would follow then that everything Treverrow wrote, was adapting to the wholly new story that RJ had written for TLJ.
As I mentioned before, if you read between the lines regarding John Boyega's comments regarding the trilogy, it sounds like there was a WHOLLY different direction for the new characters. Boyega has very much criticized Finn being sidelined in TLJ. He has also fiercely defended JJ. My take on this is that JJ had shared with Boyega a direction for Finn that was completely different from what we got. Given the teases in TFA, it's likely that Finn was going to end up a Jedi. Especially with JJ's comments that Finn's "I have to tell you something, Rey" was that Finn was going to tell her that he was force sensitive, but I guess got cut in editing. It's completely understandable that if Boyega thought Finn was going to be a Jedi, that he'd be pissed about what actually ended up happening to Finn.
So saying that RJ's script and Treverrow's was the plan all a long is just not something the facts support.
I think that its less supported to take public statements of people who have particular agenda, whether this might be to stay on the good side of the director of the next movie and the most in charge of future hiring, or reassuring an audience of grognards that the next movie is not going to offend their sensibilities, as gospel over the actual things we know were written down and planned to have taken place(I.E. because the treverrow script was confirmed to be real).
And, kind of importantly here, we have a time frame for when the Treverrow Script had to be written. Which was 3 months before the release date of TLJ and probably quite longer. This because that is when Treverrow was released by Disney due to creative differences. Am i supposed to believe that Colin Treverrow was the only person at Disney who produced work product on time and the rest of everything else was winged? Am i supposed to believe that he was able to finish writing his script before editing on TLJ was done if there really was no plan?
So, more or less, i just don't buy it. It does not jive with the actual things we have on screen and written down. If a lot of those statements are true they're more likely to be an incoherent understanding of the writing process rather than a complete vision as to the writing process at one or all points in time. So sure, at one point Luke was going to train Rey for the entirety of first movie. But that didn't get out of the initial writers room because we wouldn't have a lot of time to introduce characters. So Luke is pushed back to movie 2 and they get the idea to focus each movie on one of the main cast. Its not like they got to the first day of TFA/TLJ and were like "well we're writing the script now" or that TLJ was written with nothing in mind. And it could have been the case that JJ's draft of TLJ was that work on TFA where Luke's training was the centerpiece. But it didn't work when we had other characters that needed arc's, some of them who did not exist at the time that the JJ draft was made. Or maybe it just needs dialogue work and its rewritten despite the major plot points holding similar. These things happen and that they do does not indicate that there was no plan(and certainly does not indicate that there was no planning). It just means that things changed as production occurred as is common in any large project.
I also do not read what you read out of Boyega's comments.
Just as a quibble, we have no idea if Treverrow's script was done. We just know there was draft.
The one that Jenny Nicholson was reading had Rey/Poe and apparently they had tested Rey/everything at various phases, which wouldn't shock me. So who the heck knows how many different versions were floating around incorporating this or that suggestion or direction.
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to TUNE IN NEXT TIME!
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
They absolutely had a plan. The first two movies and the treverrow script line up too well.
According to the actors, both RJ's TLJ script and Treverrow's script were not the original plan. JJ had written the TFA script, and had draft treatments written for both Ep 8. and Ep 9. According to Daisy Ridley, RJ scrapped everything JJ had written for Ep 8, and completely re-wrote it.. It would follow then that everything Treverrow wrote, was adapting to the wholly new story that RJ had written for TLJ.
As I mentioned before, if you read between the lines regarding John Boyega's comments regarding the trilogy, it sounds like there was a WHOLLY different direction for the new characters. Boyega has very much criticized Finn being sidelined in TLJ. He has also fiercely defended JJ. My take on this is that JJ had shared with Boyega a direction for Finn that was completely different from what we got. Given the teases in TFA, it's likely that Finn was going to end up a Jedi. Especially with JJ's comments that Finn's "I have to tell you something, Rey" was that Finn was going to tell her that he was force sensitive, but I guess got cut in editing. It's completely understandable that if Boyega thought Finn was going to be a Jedi, that he'd be pissed about what actually ended up happening to Finn.
So saying that RJ's script and Treverrow's was the plan all a long is just not something the facts support.
I think that its less supported to take public statements of people who have particular agenda, whether this might be to stay on the good side of the director of the next movie and the most in charge of future hiring, or reassuring an audience of grognards that the next movie is not going to offend their sensibilities, as gospel over the actual things we know were written down and planned to have taken place(I.E. because the treverrow script was confirmed to be real).
And, kind of importantly here, we have a time frame for when the Treverrow Script had to be written. Which was 3 months before the release date of TLJ and probably quite longer. This because that is when Treverrow was released by Disney due to creative differences. Am i supposed to believe that Colin Treverrow was the only person at Disney who produced work product on time and the rest of everything else was winged? Am i supposed to believe that he was able to finish writing his script before editing on TLJ was done if there really was no plan?
So, more or less, i just don't buy it. It does not jive with the actual things we have on screen and written down. If a lot of those statements are true they're more likely to be an incoherent understanding of the writing process rather than a complete vision as to the writing process at one or all points in time. So sure, at one point Luke was going to train Rey for the entirety of first movie. But that didn't get out of the initial writers room because we wouldn't have a lot of time to introduce characters. So Luke is pushed back to movie 2 and they get the idea to focus each movie on one of the main cast. Its not like they got to the first day of TFA/TLJ and were like "well we're writing the script now" or that TLJ was written with nothing in mind. And it could have been the case that JJ's draft of TLJ was that work on TFA where Luke's training was the centerpiece. But it didn't work when we had other characters that needed arc's, some of them who did not exist at the time that the JJ draft was made. Or maybe it just needs dialogue work and its rewritten despite the major plot points holding similar. These things happen and that they do does not indicate that there was no plan(and certainly does not indicate that there was no planning). It just means that things changed as production occurred as is common in any large project.
I also do not read what you read out of Boyega's comments.
Just as a quibble, we have no idea if Treverrow's script was done. We just know there was draft.
Irrelevant. There would always be changes and differences as things happen during production. If scenes were cut from TLJ or edited in a way to change meaning then the next script obviously has to change. So any “final draft” is subject to change at any point.
It was however, complete. It filled its whole run time. It was consistent with the movies that came before it. This is what is necessary to surmise there was a plan, not a nebulous concept of a final draft.
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
There were people on these very boards hoping that Rey's reveal was going to be that her parents were just normal unimportant-to-the-galaxy nobodies before TLJ even came out. It was basically the only way the payoff for that setup wasn't going to be eyeroll inducing.
+16
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
When a Nazi is talking about how your parents are nothing, and it means you're nothing, the proper answer is... not to accept the premise.
Maybe that comes from my father's family being Jewish.
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
When a Nazi is talking about how your parents are nothing, and it means you're nothing, the proper answer is... not to accept the premise.
Maybe that comes from my father's family being Jewish.
But she doesn't accept the premise. She doesn't believe she's nothing. That's the point.
+9
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
When a Nazi is talking about how your parents are nothing, and it means you're nothing, the proper answer is... not to accept the premise.
Maybe that comes from my father's family being Jewish.
But she doesn't accept the premise. She doesn't believe she's nothing. That's the point.
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
When a Nazi is talking about how your parents are nothing, and it means you're nothing, the proper answer is... not to accept the premise.
Maybe that comes from my father's family being Jewish.
Exactly. Rey's reaction is exasperation. Like, dude, you're really going to try this? She never, not once, expressed any expectation that her parents were important. Never ever. Her only concern was that they were important TO HER. Kylo's barb was aimed at the audience, not at Rey.
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
When a Nazi is talking about how your parents are nothing, and it means you're nothing, the proper answer is... not to accept the premise.
Maybe that comes from my father's family being Jewish.
But she doesn't accept the premise. She doesn't believe she's nothing. That's the point.
As I recall, her reaction is to break down.
I mean, she was upset, sure. She seems to get over it pretty quick.
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
When a Nazi is talking about how your parents are nothing, and it means you're nothing, the proper answer is... not to accept the premise.
Maybe that comes from my father's family being Jewish.
But she doesn't accept the premise. She doesn't believe she's nothing. That's the point.
As I recall, her reaction is to break down.
Her reaction is to cry a bit, yeah. Admitting to yourself that your parents aren't coming back for you, that they didn't leave you for some important mission or something, but that they were nobodies who sold you for drinking money hurts. There's nothing strange about that.
Her reaction after that is to steal the lightsaber back from Kylo Ren and presumably kill him and/or get the fuck out of there. Because she rejects his premise and his description of her.
Nothing about this seems like it qualifies as breaking down or accepting Kylo Ren's premise that she's nothing.
The mysteries were fine. Rey didn't need special parents, she just needed more payoff than Kylo blabbing. She (and we) needed to see her parents decide to leave her and why. Snoke was fine, it was implied that Luke and Leia knew him, so I figured we'd get a flashback of Luke teaching school with wise old Snoke, the master that escaped the purge. When he reveals himself and makes his move on Ben, Luke domes him with his saber, giving him his signature divot. We are talking about 10 minutes of screen time just to acknowledge that people did important things between trilogies. Take away the awful fathier chase and we are set on time.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to THE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
When a Nazi is talking about how your parents are nothing, and it means you're nothing, the proper answer is... not to accept the premise.
Maybe that comes from my father's family being Jewish.
Exactly. Rey's reaction is exasperation. Like, dude, you're really going to try this? She never, not once, expressed any expectation that her parents were important. Never ever. Her only concern was that they were important TO HER. Kylo's barb was aimed at the audience, not at Rey.
No, it' s not. Kylo Ren's speech is aimed directly at her.
KYLO REN: It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker. The Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels.... let it all die. Rey. I want you to join me. We can rule together and bring a new order to the galaxy. REY: Don't do this, Ben. Please don't go this way. KYLO REN: No, no. You're still holding on! Let go! Do you wanna know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known? And you've just hidden it away. You know the truth. Say it. Say it. REY: They were nobody. KYLO REN: They were filthy junk traders who sold you off for drinking money. They're dead in a paupers' grave in the Jakku desert. You have no place in this story. You come from nothing. You're nothing. But not to me. Join me. Please.
He's directly attacking her. Literally telling her she's nothing and nobody. That she's meaningless to anyone except him. She has to come be with him because nobody else sees value in her. Because she has no value except when she's with him.
It's classic abusive behaviour. Which is completely in line with Kylo Ren's character, what he is and what he represents.
shryke on
+13
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Oh hey, there she is, accepting his premise. Like I said.
“Who is Snoke” and “Who are Rey’s parents” are both dumb questions TLJ answered in the best possible way. At least before Abrams got pissy and scribbled in dumb answers over them.
The movie has plenty of flaws but those two things it got right.
RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
JJ's mysteries are never fine. He never has a plan to answer them, and the buildup of the mystery is usually too much for whatever answer he shits out at the end
Oh hey, there she is, accepting his premise. Like I said.
No... she isn’t... his premise is not that her parents are nobodies but that she only has value in relation to someone else special. “You’re nothing, but not to me”.
She then rejects his premise and declares that she is someone regardless of the quality of her parents and regardless of what people think about her.
It’s RoS that accepts its premise. “Actually she was only special because her parents were special”
+10
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I don’t understand what you think the premise of his argument is. The premise of his argument is “Youre only special if you have special bloodlines”. His argument is “you don’t have a special bloodline so if you want to be important you have to join me”. she rejects this.
I am kind of flummoxed by edit: fencings disdain for this by claiming it’s a Jewish thing. Kylo basically says “you’re not important because you’re not Aryan but you can be important if you subjugate yourself to me” and Rey rejects this
Edit: confused posters. My bad
Goumindong on
0
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I don’t understand what you think the premise of his argument is. The premise of his argument is “Youre only special if you have special bloodlines”. His argument is “you don’t have a special bloodline so if you want to be important you have to join me”. she rejects this.
I am kind of flummoxed by edit: fencings disdain for this by claiming it’s a Jewish thing. Kylo basically says “you’re not important because you’re not Aryan but you can be important if you subjugate yourself to me” and Rey rejects this
My Jewish thing is that you immediately say "fuck you, Nazi". You don't actually have a debate with them about shit.
Oh hey, there she is, accepting his premise. Like I said.
My dude, if she accepted his premise, she would have joined him. Remind me again, did she join him?
Accepting the premise of an argument is not the same as agreeing with an argument.
What is the premise of his argument?
She declares them nobodies. Their legacy wasn't at issue to her, only their absence, yet she frames it in his terms. Most parents are "nobody", that's not something she ever cared about.
Oh hey, there she is, accepting his premise. Like I said.
My dude, if she accepted his premise, she would have joined him. Remind me again, did she join him?
Accepting the premise of an argument is not the same as agreeing with an argument.
What is the premise of his argument?
That her parents are nobody
The argument itself is that because of this, it confers any consequential value upon her.
So she accepts the premise, but (eventually) disagrees with the actual argument
But her parents are just junk traders who sold her for drinking money. She knows this. It's just the truth. His premise is that this means anything. That it confers some sort of value, or rather lack of value, on her. He tells her "your parents are just junk traders who sold you for booze money, so you are nothing to anyone except me". And she refuses to accept this.
Like, she cries over this because she finally admits the truth to herself and gives up on the lie that's been holding her back her entire life and leaving her chained to a backwater shithole and then she immediately moves forward to try and get the lightsaber back and kill Kylo Ren/get the fuck off the ship.
Oh hey, there she is, accepting his premise. Like I said.
My dude, if she accepted his premise, she would have joined him. Remind me again, did she join him?
Accepting the premise of an argument is not the same as agreeing with an argument.
What is the premise of his argument?
She declares them nobodies. Their legacy wasn't at issue to her, only their absence, yet she frames it in his terms. Most parents are "nobody", that's not something she ever cared about.
But they are nobodies and their legacy was kind of an issue for her, that Legacy being her primary theme in TFA (why did the lightsaber choose me!?) and her primary continuation of that theme in TLJ. And you can say that she didn't but like... wondering about who her parents were does not really make sense in any other context.
Oh hey, there she is, accepting his premise. Like I said.
My dude, if she accepted his premise, she would have joined him. Remind me again, did she join him?
Accepting the premise of an argument is not the same as agreeing with an argument.
What is the premise of his argument?
She declares them nobodies. Their legacy wasn't at issue to her, only their absence, yet she frames it in his terms. Most parents are "nobody", that's not something she ever cared about.
But they are nobodies and their legacy was kind of an issue for her, that Legacy being her primary theme in TFA (why did the lightsaber choose me!?) and her primary continuation of that theme in TLJ. And you can say that she didn't but like... wondering about who her parents were does not really make sense in any other context.
For the audience. Can you point to a line from Rey that is anything more than "I have to get back" or "They are coming back"? She's abandoned, not illegitimate. She's not Jon Snow, she wants to be found, not uplifted.
The implication whenever she says she needs to get back to Jakku isn't that her parents will drop by for a visit where they'll eat space toast in her ruined AT-AT and then leave again, but that they'll come back for her, become a family, and not live on the shithole that is Jakku.
No, it's not explicitly stated in dialogue, but, I mean, come on. Rey doesn't want to stay on Jakku because she's a fan of hot desert days and cold desert nights. Jakku is (until she meets Finn) the seat of her trauma for crying out loud. She even dreams of a different world, the one she wishes she could live on. But she stays because she deludes herself into thinking that, at any moment they'll come looking for her, and everything will be made right.
Otherwise, why stay? Rey's a natural engineer/mechanic, a person with the skills who could find work on a ship and hop planets with ease. And if all she wanted to do was find them, that's the best way to do it - get off Jakku, make some contacts, dig through some Imperial Remnant/New Republic records, etc. But she doesn't just want to find them, she wants a Moment(tm), likely one that is the opposite of her memories as a little girl watching her parents' ship lift off in the Jakku sky. She wants the life she imagines she was denied rather than forging one of her own. It takes until the throne room fight for her to truly let go of that.
And then TRoS shits all over it with Palpatine fucking and magic bloodlines... Whee!
Huh, I'd never even spotted the problem with the dialogue there, even though one of my main complaints about TLJ is that it doesn't care about the story or the characters nearly as much as it cares about what the audience is thinking about.
There is nothing to imply Rey would say her parents were 'nobodies', because there's no reason to believe she thinks they were 'somebody important' rather than just...her parents. It's the audience that would have that shocked reaction. Oh my god she's not the daughter of Obi-Wan and Maul. Rey wasn't wondering which important lore characters birthed her.
She might have reacted poorly in that scene and said they were bad people or didn't care about her or something, but her calling them 'nobodies' when pressed doesn't fit.
Just to be clear, I like her parents not being anyone important to the universe.
Huh, I'd never even spotted the problem with the dialogue there, even though one of my main complaints about TLJ is that it doesn't care about the story or the characters nearly as much as it cares about what the audience is thinking about.
There is nothing to imply Rey would say her parents were 'nobodies', because there's no reason to believe she thinks they were 'somebody important' rather than just...her parents. It's the audience that would have that shocked reaction. Oh my god she's not the daughter of Obi-Wan and Maul. Rey wasn't wondering which important lore characters birthed her.
She might have reacted poorly in that scene and said they were bad people or didn't care about her or something, but her calling them 'nobodies' when pressed doesn't fit.
Just to be clear, I like her parents not being anyone important to the universe.
The biggest problem I have with that scene is that it has by far the most interesting premise of the ST, and immediately squanders it - the idea of unwinding the First Order from within. But it basically can't happen, because there's no way you're going into a 3rd movie without a huge space battle lined up (though ironically, they could've done that and TRoS's antagonist, as stupid as it was, could've been played exactly straight).
Rey says her parents are nobody because she’s been looking for her parents’ identity to determine her own. If they were rebels on the run, if they were smugglers, if they were empire loyalists, anything would give her something to follow or respond to.
“Nobody” has one meaning to the audience, yes, but to Rey it’s not ‘My parents weren’t famous,” it’s, "My parents weren’t people with a purpose in life that can tell me about my own.” They didn’t matter to the New Republic, they didn’t matter to the Empire. There’s not some magic answer out there that’s going to tell her who she’s supposed to be, nobody she can introduce herself to who will tell her that her place is with them because her parents had already made that place.
She doesn’t seem to hate them or judge them in that moment, she’s just acknowledging that they don’t have anything to tell her about the life she’s living now or how to use the potential she has.
I liked most of Rey and Kylo's interactions in TLJ
Driver sells the fuck out of Kylo as a broken manchild that needs Rey to follow him so hard
and "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to." is a great line that would have been all the better if they really did, with no palpatine, no special bloodlines, just them
ROTS ruined the shredded bits of good movie that exist in TLJ
They absolutely had a plan. The first two movies and the treverrow script line up too well.
According to the actors, both RJ's TLJ script and Treverrow's script were not the original plan. JJ had written the TFA script, and had draft treatments written for both Ep 8. and Ep 9. According to Daisy Ridley, RJ scrapped everything JJ had written for Ep 8, and completely re-wrote it.. It would follow then that everything Treverrow wrote, was adapting to the wholly new story that RJ had written for TLJ.
As I mentioned before, if you read between the lines regarding John Boyega's comments regarding the trilogy, it sounds like there was a WHOLLY different direction for the new characters. Boyega has very much criticized Finn being sidelined in TLJ. He has also fiercely defended JJ. My take on this is that JJ had shared with Boyega a direction for Finn that was completely different from what we got. Given the teases in TFA, it's likely that Finn was going to end up a Jedi. Especially with JJ's comments that Finn's "I have to tell you something, Rey" was that Finn was going to tell her that he was force sensitive, but I guess got cut in editing. It's completely understandable that if Boyega thought Finn was going to be a Jedi, that he'd be pissed about what actually ended up happening to Finn.
So saying that RJ's script and Treverrow's was the plan all a long is just not something the facts support.
I think that its less supported to take public statements of people who have particular agenda, whether this might be to stay on the good side of the director of the next movie and the most in charge of future hiring, or reassuring an audience of grognards that the next movie is not going to offend their sensibilities, as gospel over the actual things we know were written down and planned to have taken place(I.E. because the treverrow script was confirmed to be real).
And, kind of importantly here, we have a time frame for when the Treverrow Script had to be written. Which was 3 months before the release date of TLJ and probably quite longer. This because that is when Treverrow was released by Disney due to creative differences. Am i supposed to believe that Colin Treverrow was the only person at Disney who produced work product on time and the rest of everything else was winged? Am i supposed to believe that he was able to finish writing his script before editing on TLJ was done if there really was no plan?
So, more or less, i just don't buy it. It does not jive with the actual things we have on screen and written down. If a lot of those statements are true they're more likely to be an incoherent understanding of the writing process rather than a complete vision as to the writing process at one or all points in time. So sure, at one point Luke was going to train Rey for the entirety of first movie. But that didn't get out of the initial writers room because we wouldn't have a lot of time to introduce characters. So Luke is pushed back to movie 2 and they get the idea to focus each movie on one of the main cast. Its not like they got to the first day of TFA/TLJ and were like "well we're writing the script now" or that TLJ was written with nothing in mind. And it could have been the case that JJ's draft of TLJ was that work on TFA where Luke's training was the centerpiece. But it didn't work when we had other characters that needed arc's, some of them who did not exist at the time that the JJ draft was made. Or maybe it just needs dialogue work and its rewritten despite the major plot points holding similar. These things happen and that they do does not indicate that there was no plan(and certainly does not indicate that there was no planning). It just means that things changed as production occurred as is common in any large project.
I also do not read what you read out of Boyega's comments.
Just as a quibble, we have no idea if Treverrow's script was done. We just know there was draft.
Irrelevant. There would always be changes and differences as things happen during production. If scenes were cut from TLJ or edited in a way to change meaning then the next script obviously has to change. So any “final draft” is subject to change at any point.
It was however, complete. It filled its whole run time. It was consistent with the movies that came before it. This is what is necessary to surmise there was a plan, not a nebulous concept of a final draft.
I think it's a tad easier to believe that Treverrow and Johnson are actually competent at their jobs. Get a copy of TFA, get a copy of TLJ's script, keep in touch with Johnson for any major changes, and talk with him about what he sees as the state of the characters and setting at the end of TLJ. Pretty sure you could bang out two hours of script that would generally hold up. Just don't get into anything too specific from TLJ. It's not like RotJ had some deep dive callbacks to ESB. You'd probably have to tweak some things once TLJ is finished, but unless Johnson decided to kill Snoke off at the end of filming or something, you'd generally be good to go.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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The one that Jenny Nicholson was reading had Rey/Poe and apparently they had tested Rey/everything at various phases, which wouldn't shock me. So who the heck knows how many different versions were floating around incorporating this or that suggestion or direction.
This idea that "mysteries are bad" is just a reaction to Abrams being bad at delivering on them. Nobody had boo to say about them in the 2 years between TFA and TLJ. It wasn't until it became a point to defend TLJ at all costs did anybody have a problem with the questions. We spent 2 years talking about them with nothing but excitement. Almost like these things are serialized adventure stories with dangling threads that get you to TUNE IN NEXT TIME!
People were calling the "Rey's parents" thing stupid right from the start. Because there is almost no answer to the question that isn't either meaningless to the audience or stupid. TLJ manages to find an interesting way out of that dilemma. TROS reveals how terrible the obvious route for answering that question ends up being.
The reveal of Rey's parents in TLJ is fantastic because Kylo uses it to hurt her and she rises above it and it ends up serving multiple really great purposes.
Irrelevant. There would always be changes and differences as things happen during production. If scenes were cut from TLJ or edited in a way to change meaning then the next script obviously has to change. So any “final draft” is subject to change at any point.
It was however, complete. It filled its whole run time. It was consistent with the movies that came before it. This is what is necessary to surmise there was a plan, not a nebulous concept of a final draft.
That moment was the last straw that made me completely done with the movie, actually.
Why was Rey being an orphan of nobody important such a deal-breaker for you?
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When a Nazi is talking about how your parents are nothing, and it means you're nothing, the proper answer is... not to accept the premise.
Maybe that comes from my father's family being Jewish.
But she doesn't accept the premise. She doesn't believe she's nothing. That's the point.
As I recall, her reaction is to break down.
Exactly. Rey's reaction is exasperation. Like, dude, you're really going to try this? She never, not once, expressed any expectation that her parents were important. Never ever. Her only concern was that they were important TO HER. Kylo's barb was aimed at the audience, not at Rey.
I mean, she was upset, sure. She seems to get over it pretty quick.
The breakdown happens in the next movie.
Her reaction is to cry a bit, yeah. Admitting to yourself that your parents aren't coming back for you, that they didn't leave you for some important mission or something, but that they were nobodies who sold you for drinking money hurts. There's nothing strange about that.
Her reaction after that is to steal the lightsaber back from Kylo Ren and presumably kill him and/or get the fuck out of there. Because she rejects his premise and his description of her.
Nothing about this seems like it qualifies as breaking down or accepting Kylo Ren's premise that she's nothing.
No, it' s not. Kylo Ren's speech is aimed directly at her.
He's directly attacking her. Literally telling her she's nothing and nobody. That she's meaningless to anyone except him. She has to come be with him because nobody else sees value in her. Because she has no value except when she's with him.
It's classic abusive behaviour. Which is completely in line with Kylo Ren's character, what he is and what he represents.
The movie has plenty of flaws but those two things it got right.
You can't give someone a pirate ship in one game, and then take it back in the next game. It's rude.
My dude, if she accepted his premise, she would have joined him. Remind me again, did she join him?
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No... she isn’t... his premise is not that her parents are nobodies but that she only has value in relation to someone else special. “You’re nothing, but not to me”.
She then rejects his premise and declares that she is someone regardless of the quality of her parents and regardless of what people think about her.
It’s RoS that accepts its premise. “Actually she was only special because her parents were special”
Accepting the premise of an argument is not the same as agreeing with an argument.
What is the premise of his argument?
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That her parents are nobody
The argument itself is that because of this, it confers any consequential value upon her.
So she accepts the premise, but (eventually) disagrees with the actual argument
I am kind of flummoxed by edit: fencings disdain for this by claiming it’s a Jewish thing. Kylo basically says “you’re not important because you’re not Aryan but you can be important if you subjugate yourself to me” and Rey rejects this
Edit: confused posters. My bad
She declares them nobodies. Their legacy wasn't at issue to her, only their absence, yet she frames it in his terms. Most parents are "nobody", that's not something she ever cared about.
But her parents are just junk traders who sold her for drinking money. She knows this. It's just the truth. His premise is that this means anything. That it confers some sort of value, or rather lack of value, on her. He tells her "your parents are just junk traders who sold you for booze money, so you are nothing to anyone except me". And she refuses to accept this.
Like, she cries over this because she finally admits the truth to herself and gives up on the lie that's been holding her back her entire life and leaving her chained to a backwater shithole and then she immediately moves forward to try and get the lightsaber back and kill Kylo Ren/get the fuck off the ship.
So you agree that she rejects his argument. So what is your issue with this in the first place?
Plenty of faulty arguments can be made with sound premises.
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But they are nobodies and their legacy was kind of an issue for her, that Legacy being her primary theme in TFA (why did the lightsaber choose me!?) and her primary continuation of that theme in TLJ. And you can say that she didn't but like... wondering about who her parents were does not really make sense in any other context.
For the audience. Can you point to a line from Rey that is anything more than "I have to get back" or "They are coming back"? She's abandoned, not illegitimate. She's not Jon Snow, she wants to be found, not uplifted.
No, it's not explicitly stated in dialogue, but, I mean, come on. Rey doesn't want to stay on Jakku because she's a fan of hot desert days and cold desert nights. Jakku is (until she meets Finn) the seat of her trauma for crying out loud. She even dreams of a different world, the one she wishes she could live on. But she stays because she deludes herself into thinking that, at any moment they'll come looking for her, and everything will be made right.
Otherwise, why stay? Rey's a natural engineer/mechanic, a person with the skills who could find work on a ship and hop planets with ease. And if all she wanted to do was find them, that's the best way to do it - get off Jakku, make some contacts, dig through some Imperial Remnant/New Republic records, etc. But she doesn't just want to find them, she wants a Moment(tm), likely one that is the opposite of her memories as a little girl watching her parents' ship lift off in the Jakku sky. She wants the life she imagines she was denied rather than forging one of her own. It takes until the throne room fight for her to truly let go of that.
And then TRoS shits all over it with Palpatine fucking and magic bloodlines... Whee!
There is nothing to imply Rey would say her parents were 'nobodies', because there's no reason to believe she thinks they were 'somebody important' rather than just...her parents. It's the audience that would have that shocked reaction. Oh my god she's not the daughter of Obi-Wan and Maul. Rey wasn't wondering which important lore characters birthed her.
She might have reacted poorly in that scene and said they were bad people or didn't care about her or something, but her calling them 'nobodies' when pressed doesn't fit.
Just to be clear, I like her parents not being anyone important to the universe.
The biggest problem I have with that scene is that it has by far the most interesting premise of the ST, and immediately squanders it - the idea of unwinding the First Order from within. But it basically can't happen, because there's no way you're going into a 3rd movie without a huge space battle lined up (though ironically, they could've done that and TRoS's antagonist, as stupid as it was, could've been played exactly straight).
“Nobody” has one meaning to the audience, yes, but to Rey it’s not ‘My parents weren’t famous,” it’s, "My parents weren’t people with a purpose in life that can tell me about my own.” They didn’t matter to the New Republic, they didn’t matter to the Empire. There’s not some magic answer out there that’s going to tell her who she’s supposed to be, nobody she can introduce herself to who will tell her that her place is with them because her parents had already made that place.
She doesn’t seem to hate them or judge them in that moment, she’s just acknowledging that they don’t have anything to tell her about the life she’s living now or how to use the potential she has.
Driver sells the fuck out of Kylo as a broken manchild that needs Rey to follow him so hard
and "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to." is a great line that would have been all the better if they really did, with no palpatine, no special bloodlines, just them
ROTS ruined the shredded bits of good movie that exist in TLJ
In my head this is what happened to Palpatine:
And there's stuff in it that is unfortunately prophetic.
I think it's a tad easier to believe that Treverrow and Johnson are actually competent at their jobs. Get a copy of TFA, get a copy of TLJ's script, keep in touch with Johnson for any major changes, and talk with him about what he sees as the state of the characters and setting at the end of TLJ. Pretty sure you could bang out two hours of script that would generally hold up. Just don't get into anything too specific from TLJ. It's not like RotJ had some deep dive callbacks to ESB. You'd probably have to tweak some things once TLJ is finished, but unless Johnson decided to kill Snoke off at the end of filming or something, you'd generally be good to go.
Change the nobody to assholes, but change nothing else.
Rey, through tears, "They were assholes."
Flawless.