HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Let’s consider the physics of respective kamikaze attempts. Holding uses a flagship with a big mass, and in that scene hyperdrive works as C. Her kinetic energy is essentially infinite in that scene’s logic, effective weapon.
Finn is on a light speeder thing traveling at let’s say 200kph, that’s a nasty traffic accident but it’s far from Holdo’s energy which is probably supernova-esque in scope.
PSN: Honkalot
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
Let’s consider the physics of respective kamikaze attempts.
Couldn't we just hammer nails through our dicks instead.
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Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
edited May 2020
So, if the sequels had been structured around Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren, I'd offer this as a story pitch.
There are seven members within the Knights of Ren, so each of them will be defined by a sin. Kylo Ren is wrath and effectively stays the same.
The other six are spread out among the galaxy, inflicting harm in their own ways (except for one).
-- The Knight of Greed is a merchant lord in the galactic banking trade and is the primary source of the First Order's funds.
-- The Knight of Lust is an assassin, targeting force-users as they become active & known, as to eliminate possible threats to the First Order.
-- The Knight of Gluttony is a crime lord, who is primarily maintaining a neutrality alliance between the First Order and the different crime syndicates.
-- The Knight of Sloth is a former warrior who betrayed the Knights & Kylo Ren, and is now in hiding from them.
-- The Knight of Envy is a thief, stealing anything from important resources to military intelligence as to aid the First Order.
-- The Knight of Pride is a senator who has been manipulating the New Republic from adequately investigating and combating the First Order, using governmental bureaucracy as a hammer.
-- And finally The Knight of Wrath, Kylo Ren, is leading the First Order in their conquest. His story-line stays about the same as what we are shown in the Force Awakens.
The difference here is that there is no Snoke. Instead, the Knights of Ren effectively took over the remnants of the empire (the early stages of the First Order) and now control it via there different means/influences.
The sequels then follow Rey, Poe, & Finn going against the Knights of Ren in different ways.
If they didn't reset the galaxy, the legacy characters could have been sidelined by station. Leia in the new Senate, Han at her side, and Luke running his own Cheddar Monk monastery. The story can involve them, but they no longer make sense as adventurers.
Which honestly sounds a whole lot better to me than just copying the OT and having all three retiring into what they started out as: Rebel leader, aimless smuggler, hopeless guy stuck on a backwater planet.
We could've had Leia actually preparing the Republic for the First Order instead of being swept under the rug with a paltry junk fleet, Han gathering info from sleazier sources, and Luke preparing the scattered Jedi temples and scouting for new Jedi to help the galaxy in the coming war (and avoid it if possible). They could've been developed roles with full lives instead of just being cut-and-pasted versions from decades ago who have apparently accomplished nothing whatsoever despite being galactic heroes.
Nothing like the First Order should have been able to exist after the efforts required to end the Empire. The Sith needed to start on the backfoot not the front, and set about dismantling the Empire or, ya know, just not going into epic, galactic ownership plots again.
Even the old EU thought the idea that the Empire was just gonna be gone after the second Death Star blew up was wrong. The idea of the First Order makes a good amount of sense. It's just that TFA does a terrible job of explaining and establishing it.
The Empire wouldn't have vanished, you'd still have competent leaders, but it's major resources and most powerful members were dead and gone. The First Order looks like it has MORE resources than the Empire ever did, and all those resources had to come from somewhere. After two major successes by the Rebels, the forces opposed to the Empire remnants would have been huge. And even if there were Empire pockets out there, they had to have lost significant forces in two Death Star explosions.
The ST excels at making the first 6 films feel like no one ever actually achieved anything of lasting importance. Except Palpatine.
I'd honestly have found it more interesting if Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren were a rising force capable of surviving because of sheer skill and ability when combined together. I don't know what their goal would have been but you could have dug into the lore, the mass Shadow generator on Mandalore, searching for the teachings of Revan. Think how more interesting it would be for the good guys to be following the bad guys as they themselves are following a trail, and then maybe the good guys get ahead and then it's a race against time. It's basically Indiana Jones in space.
Anyway, the First Order was a lazy story writing crutch and it showed.
The First Order is still a lot like the Imperial Remnant from the old EU. The idea that the Empire could still have considerable strength after their defeat is not some crazy idea that comes out of nowhere in the Star Wars franchise and for the most part makes sense. The First Order's strength is ... who knows honestly. None of the films spend much time trying to really articulate it. But the idea of Empire 2.0 is fine and was a thing long before JJ came around.
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Let’s consider the physics of respective kamikaze attempts.
Couldn't we just hammer nails through our dicks instead.
Let’s consider the physics of that for a moment.
PSN: Honkalot
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
edited May 2020
I demand a standalone Mandalorian Season Two episode of Boba Fett trying to get out of the Sarlacc Pit and its basically this
Boba Fett awakens inside the Sarlacc. Via the Sarlacc, he makes telepathic contact with the first of its victims, Susejo. A series of flashbacks ensues, showing some of the Sarlacc's other victims, including a pair of Corellians and a Jedi. Other flashbacks detail Boba Fett's delivery of the frozen Han Solo to Jabba.
Inside the Sarlacc, for some time Fett is immobilized and his armor is heavily damaged by the creature's digestive system. He learns that Susejo can exert some control over the Sarlacc. He goads Susejo, making the Sarlacc contract around his jetpack. The resulting explosion frees the bounty hunter from the Sarlacc's grasp. He then fires concussion grenades into the wall of the beast, blowing a hole in its interior. Boba Fett escapes the Sarlacc, which like him is badly injured but still alive.
A year later, Fett returns to the Sarlacc in the Slave II. Due to his prior contact with the Sarlacc he can reestablish the telepathic connection with Susejo. He decides not to destroy the Sarlacc yet, but promises to return.
1) That story was awesome. And F you if you don't agree.
2) Forget all of that, and just tell me the story of how the most badass bounty hunter in the galaxy, with special space armor, a gawddamn jetpack and a bunch of other weapons, simply beat the shit out of the almighty sarlacc from the inside and then just flew out again when he was done.
Tales of the Bounty Hunters works when you consider them actual tales, shit that people tell each other over drinks at a cantina. "Yeah man I heard IG-88 turned himself into the Death Star"
Tales of the Bounty Hunters works when you consider them actual tales, shit that people tell each other over drinks at a cantina. "Yeah man I heard IG-88 turned himself into the Death Star"
If they didn't reset the galaxy, the legacy characters could have been sidelined by station. Leia in the new Senate, Han at her side, and Luke running his own Cheddar Monk monastery. The story can involve them, but they no longer make sense as adventurers.
Which honestly sounds a whole lot better to me than just copying the OT and having all three retiring into what they started out as: Rebel leader, aimless smuggler, hopeless guy stuck on a backwater planet.
We could've had Leia actually preparing the Republic for the First Order instead of being swept under the rug with a paltry junk fleet, Han gathering info from sleazier sources, and Luke preparing the scattered Jedi temples and scouting for new Jedi to help the galaxy in the coming war (and avoid it if possible). They could've been developed roles with full lives instead of just being cut-and-pasted versions from decades ago who have apparently accomplished nothing whatsoever despite being galactic heroes.
Nothing like the First Order should have been able to exist after the efforts required to end the Empire. The Sith needed to start on the backfoot not the front, and set about dismantling the Empire or, ya know, just not going into epic, galactic ownership plots again.
Even the old EU thought the idea that the Empire was just gonna be gone after the second Death Star blew up was wrong. The idea of the First Order makes a good amount of sense. It's just that TFA does a terrible job of explaining and establishing it.
The Empire wouldn't have vanished, you'd still have competent leaders, but it's major resources and most powerful members were dead and gone. The First Order looks like it has MORE resources than the Empire ever did, and all those resources had to come from somewhere. After two major successes by the Rebels, the forces opposed to the Empire remnants would have been huge. And even if there were Empire pockets out there, they had to have lost significant forces in two Death Star explosions.
The ST excels at making the first 6 films feel like no one ever actually achieved anything of lasting importance. Except Palpatine.
I'd honestly have found it more interesting if Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren were a rising force capable of surviving because of sheer skill and ability when combined together. I don't know what their goal would have been but you could have dug into the lore, the mass Shadow generator on Mandalore, searching for the teachings of Revan. Think how more interesting it would be for the good guys to be following the bad guys as they themselves are following a trail, and then maybe the good guys get ahead and then it's a race against time. It's basically Indiana Jones in space.
Anyway, the First Order was a lazy story writing crutch and it showed.
The First Order is still a lot like the Imperial Remnant from the old EU. The idea that the Empire could still have considerable strength after their defeat is not some crazy idea that comes out of nowhere in the Star Wars franchise and for the most part makes sense. The First Order's strength is ... who knows honestly. None of the films spend much time trying to really articulate it. But the idea of Empire 2.0 is fine and was a thing long before JJ came around.
Most of the Imperial Remnant was largely destroyed/assimilated by the time the Solo kids were adults. Which is one of the reasons why the old EU invented the Yuuzhan Vong. It's also why the First Order, as a force that can decimate the New Republic so quickly/thoroughly, doesn't really work. There's been 30 or so years for the burgeoning New Republic to deal with these problems and these people, and they simply haven't addressed it at all apparently.
Man, I would not have come up with anything as cool as that @Zonugal
My version would be dead simple.
Snoke was an inquisitor / secret apprentice of the Emperor, who excelled at mind tricks but was rubbish at laser swords. Vader bested him and is why he’s all ganked up. After the empire falls he gathers up a piece for himself far from the core worlds; we establish a home planet for the First Order in the first movie and show their scale to be one planet’s worth of ships.
Gonna have to think of a reason why Ben is such an asshole. Maybe he met Snoke while searching for a Jedi ruin to learn new techniques because he thought (rightly) that Luke was keeping parts of the skill tree from him. Master manipulator, perhaps Snoke filled him fulla mind tricks before sending him home. Ben rebels against Luke, but doesn’t kill all the students. One will do, one named murder to kick off his descent and belief he can’t go back.
The Knights of Ren are a bunch of people Ben met along the way, just as a Star Wars protagonist might. Only because he’s this wannabe Master they have to be his knights, not friends. They’d be:
The pilot. A regular Joe that mooks for Ben, and fills the ace pilot role Poe has to Rey. Someone he can talk to, at least on the rare occasion he lets his guard down. Known him the longest. Can wear a helmet and have a jet pack when out of his ship I guess.
The oracle. A subtle Force sensitive alien that holds the second protagonist spot Fin has to Rey. Cruel, and likely replaces Ben in Poe and Rey’s mind torture scene. Very cowardly, they’re the “fear leads to suffering” bit of the Dark Side.
The droid. Gotta have a robot pal, right? The tech savvy slicer. They act as a living voice to Ben’s doubts, making snarky comments about whatever they’re up.
The chewie. A towering beast with grenades and a hand-canon. No chill, they’re Ben’s anger embodied. The most loyal to Ben.
The wronged. Unlike Ben who is a huge baby this guy’s family were killed by rebels, or bandits justifying a raid on an Imperial town at the end of the war. Has some cool whip or whatever and kills folks. Totally has to be killed by Ben in the last movie to metaphorically free himself.
Finally, while Hux is not a knight he’s been assigned to oversee (Snoke says to him) or job for (Snoke to Ben) them. Ben and him are stuck together and share the same two kids trying to impress their dad act they already had in TFA. In this version he’s slightly lower down the chain of command, but still high enough to give speeches.
By the start of the first movie Ben arrived ‘by chance’ at the First Order’s planet while on his runaway journey no more than a year prior, and has begun to train under Snoke. By the end of the movie Snoke has picked the allegiances of the knights apart and calls Ben ‘Master of the Knights of Ren’ purely to mock him. Since I’m saying Snoke was a secret apprentice let’s allude the oracle knight might be one to him too, to further dilute the idea Ben is anything more than an enforcer who thinks they’re special.
In the old EU, the vast majority of the Empire entered a "warring states" period after the Emperor's death, with the New Republic aggressively (within the limits of their resources, military, logistical and political) fighting these various self-appointed successors even as they also fought amongst themselves. By the Vong era, the Remnant was - as the name indicates - all that was left.
In the new continuity, the various backers of the Rebellion seem to have immediately declared MISSION ACCOMPLISHED and fucked off pulled back to their own systems, because they were all heartily sick of the Empire and didn't want another... leaving a massive gaping power vacuum for someone to come along and fill. It was a (New) Republic that existed on paper only, or would if there was any paper in the GFFA. A case can be made that in the end, the Separatists (or at least their cause) won.
The latter, sadly, has more basis in our history - look at the period between the "Great War", aka "the War to End All Wars", and the one that (inevitably, in hindsight) came after, with special attention to how Germany was left to rearm and stomp all over everyone in the rematch, and the utterly impotent League of Nations (a group even more high-minded yet useless than its modern successor the UN, if that can be imagined).
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
In the old EU, the vast majority of the Empire entered a "warring states" period after the Emperor's death, with the New Republic aggressively (within the limits of their resources, military, logistical and political) fighting these various self-appointed successors even as they also fought amongst themselves. By the Vong era, the Remnant was - as the name indicates - all that was left.
In the new continuity, the various backers of the Rebellion seem to have immediately declared MISSION ACCOMPLISHED and fucked off pulled back to their own systems, because they were all heartily sick of the Empire and didn't want another... leaving a massive gaping power vacuum for someone to come along and fill. It was a (New) Republic that existed on paper only, or would if there was any paper in the GFFA. A case can be made that in the end, the Separatists (or at least their cause) won.
The latter, sadly, has more basis in our history - look at the period between the "Great War", aka "the War to End All Wars", and the one that (inevitably, in hindsight) came after, with special attention to how Germany was left to rearm and stomp all over everyone in the rematch, and the utterly impotent League of Nations (a group even more high-minded yet useless than its modern successor the UN, if that can be imagined).
It's pretty much this, heavy spoilers for Bloodline here:
So the New Republic ends up being a hella bureaucratic, divided mess, primarily between factions that want more centralized government, and decentralized government for fear of repeating the mistakes of the Empire. While the Empire sucked shit for a lot of people, it also provided a lot of stability, and the dysfunction of the New Republic leaves a lot of systems that are less self sufficient worse off than they were under Imperial rule, particularly with the New Republic's failure to control organized crime. There's a lot of people, particularly on the worlds that favor more centralized control, that look back on the Empire with rose colored sunglasses because it wasn't so bad for them ; kind of like how White people tend to view the 50s in the US. Eventually you have senators that become part of the First Order actively sabotoging the New Republic to foment a secession movement.
It's all extremely similar to US politics and it strikes me as kind of silly when people say that that it's implausible. It was more or less my read on it before reading Bloodline. It's pretty obvious the parallels that are being drawn between real world resurgent fascism in the ST.
Finally, finally watched Rise of Skywalker. It was ooooookay. It's a good looking movie and everyone nails the roles they're given. The banter is great, the new droid is great, I love all the practical effects. The plot is an absolute fever dream where nothing makes sense and neither time nor death even exist. While it is an eminently watchable movie, it might be the most "turn your brain off and look at the pretty lights" of all the Star Wars films, which is saying something.
It's a desperate shame that we didn't get a sequel to the last movie, and instead got an entire new series of movies crammed into just under 2 1/2 hours. The character development of Kylo being erased and rewritten is particularly disappointing, since his journey had been the most interesting out of any of them, I think. People say they hate Rey in this; I think she's fine, considering what has been done to her character. Daisy Ridley is great. The force dyad thing is neat (fuck the haters) and informed by their pasts, but I do think Abrams leaned too hard on the interesting space-sharing space-and-time fuckery that featured in TLJ.
Whatever. I'm tired. Thinking about this movie in the context of the rest of the movies makes me tired and a little sad. It had a lot of cool moments though. It looked good. McDiarmid is the best, even though he should have been a thousand miles away from this picture.
Anyway that wraps up our runthrough of the Star Wars films, so in celebration, let's stop thinking and be self indulgent (just like JJ Abrams amirite ohhhhhhh I'm here all week):
Tentative Star Wars Movie Power Ranking:
1: Empire Strikes Back
2: The Last Jedi
3: A New Hope
4: Return of the Jedi
5: Rogue One
6: The Force Awakens
7/8: Revenge of the Sith / Rise of Skywalker (can't tell where these land yet, one is tedious with some solid moments, and actually follows through and ties up its trilogy's plot, where the other is probably more immediately entertaining, with better acting and visuals, but reads like a teenager's dream journal after binge-watching all the Star Wars movies in a row)
9: Solo I guess, it's pretty bleak on this end of the list
10: Attack of the Clones
11: The Phantom Menace
12: The Clone Wars (the animated movie which I'm counting here because this somehow got a theatrical release)
If they didn't reset the galaxy, the legacy characters could have been sidelined by station. Leia in the new Senate, Han at her side, and Luke running his own Cheddar Monk monastery. The story can involve them, but they no longer make sense as adventurers.
Which honestly sounds a whole lot better to me than just copying the OT and having all three retiring into what they started out as: Rebel leader, aimless smuggler, hopeless guy stuck on a backwater planet.
We could've had Leia actually preparing the Republic for the First Order instead of being swept under the rug with a paltry junk fleet, Han gathering info from sleazier sources, and Luke preparing the scattered Jedi temples and scouting for new Jedi to help the galaxy in the coming war (and avoid it if possible). They could've been developed roles with full lives instead of just being cut-and-pasted versions from decades ago who have apparently accomplished nothing whatsoever despite being galactic heroes.
Nothing like the First Order should have been able to exist after the efforts required to end the Empire. The Sith needed to start on the backfoot not the front, and set about dismantling the Empire or, ya know, just not going into epic, galactic ownership plots again.
Even the old EU thought the idea that the Empire was just gonna be gone after the second Death Star blew up was wrong. The idea of the First Order makes a good amount of sense. It's just that TFA does a terrible job of explaining and establishing it.
The Empire wouldn't have vanished, you'd still have competent leaders, but it's major resources and most powerful members were dead and gone. The First Order looks like it has MORE resources than the Empire ever did, and all those resources had to come from somewhere. After two major successes by the Rebels, the forces opposed to the Empire remnants would have been huge. And even if there were Empire pockets out there, they had to have lost significant forces in two Death Star explosions.
The ST excels at making the first 6 films feel like no one ever actually achieved anything of lasting importance. Except Palpatine.
I'd honestly have found it more interesting if Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren were a rising force capable of surviving because of sheer skill and ability when combined together. I don't know what their goal would have been but you could have dug into the lore, the mass Shadow generator on Mandalore, searching for the teachings of Revan. Think how more interesting it would be for the good guys to be following the bad guys as they themselves are following a trail, and then maybe the good guys get ahead and then it's a race against time. It's basically Indiana Jones in space.
Anyway, the First Order was a lazy story writing crutch and it showed.
The First Order is still a lot like the Imperial Remnant from the old EU. The idea that the Empire could still have considerable strength after their defeat is not some crazy idea that comes out of nowhere in the Star Wars franchise and for the most part makes sense. The First Order's strength is ... who knows honestly. None of the films spend much time trying to really articulate it. But the idea of Empire 2.0 is fine and was a thing long before JJ came around.
Most of the Imperial Remnant was largely destroyed/assimilated by the time the Solo kids were adults. Which is one of the reasons why the old EU invented the Yuuzhan Vong. It's also why the First Order, as a force that can decimate the New Republic so quickly/thoroughly, doesn't really work. There's been 30 or so years for the burgeoning New Republic to deal with these problems and these people, and they simply haven't addressed it at all apparently.
How does it not work? Not dealing with problems is like the most realistic thing ever.
We expect people in fiction to act sensibly, address obvious problems, and not act against their own best interests for stupid reasons. This may be one of the most unrealistic aspects.
A year or two after RotJ, the New Republic and all it's citizens learn that the whole fucking thing was due to a powerful force user with a vendetta against other force users. They then decide force users have to rounded up or exiled or executed or whatever, depending on the individual state. Even Luke Skywalker, possibly. Luke is simultaneously celebrated and distrusted, some saying he especially needs to be controlled as he is very powerful and the son of space Goebbels. Luke could live mostly free thanks to his sister and the military (having fought on the frontlines with regular soldiers earns him respect and trust), but Luke leaves as a sign of protest. He tells no one where he goes, especially Leia, in order to protect her. Later it's revealed that Leia is indeed force sensitive and hid it
Han and Leia's son, Ben, is of course a force sensitive with great potential. Unknown to anyone, he secretly trains himself. With no guidance, his training is haphazard, with both light and dark side powers developing. One day he loses control and force fries a dozen people, leading to his arrest and subsequent imprisonment in a brutal camp for force users. Han decides to break him out and take him on the run, not telling Leia to again protect her. While searching for Luke, some mysterious force users clad all in black attack. They kidnap Ben, strand Han and Chewie on a backwater planet, and sell the Falcon. Leia resigns from whatever office she held, and
Meanwhile...
A few years ago, a new terrorist group forms on the other side of the galaxy. It is learned that they are lead by a powerful force user. The New Republic shits itself. Luckily, there is a band of guerrilla fighters who want to stop this terrorist group. The New Republic sends them supplies, made up mostly of leftover imperial gear, to have them fight this terrorist group. The fighters apparently win, but suffer heavy losses. They ask the New Reoublic for help, but the NR says nope, you're on your own. The guerilla fighters feel, betrayed, and swear to never again be taken advantage of.
For me I always want a happy ending for my heroes. I always imagine after a story ends they get the best possible outcome.
Leia real high up and influential in the New Republic, retaining her royalty as queen of a nomadic fleet. Han as a decent husband, who has a side gig running a galaxy wide casino / not-too-shady smuggling and intelligence ring. Luke head of a new successful Jedi order that ditches a lot of the dumb rules because he simply never learnt them. Like, Wedge? Wedge runs the X-Wing school. CP3O lives in a library and has robot tea; he’s retired.
Thing is, that doesn’t make for a great story. Any story after that foundation would have to take place after they died, because no bad guys are taking over with my Level 100 Super version of the characters.
Which is... probably why you wanna set stories well after them and far away from known places to begin with.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
It's been rumored for a while, but now names have been attached: according to Buzzfeed, a KotOR movie is in the early stages of pre-production.
A movie based on Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic — the beloved video game first released in 2003 — is currently being written by Laeta Kalogridis (Avatar, Shutter Island) for Lucasfilm, three sources close to the project told BuzzFeed News.
...Kalogridis is close to finishing the first script of a potential KOTOR trilogy, according to the three sources.
This follows on from Revan getting a mention in the episode IX visual dictionary as a Sith Lord for whom a Final Order trooper legion is named (though this being both a Star Wars product and a JJ Abrams project, it was not even mentioned aloud in the film proper), as well as Kennedy confirming several months ago that some sort of KOTOR-related project was in the works.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Thing is, that doesn’t make for a great story. Any story after that foundation would have to take place after they died, because no bad guys are taking over with my Level 100 Super version of the characters.
I disagree that it doesn't make for a decent story. We've already seen these people succeed, so the aftermath should simply be them building on what they've already succeeded at. Not so much "happy ending" as "getting on with their lives", but they did beat the big bad guy of their times so the state of things should only be able to go up.
Hell, you could even make a good story out of rehashing the OT to set up the galaxy, except this time the good guys are in a position of power and can make the smart, effective countermoves. Starkiller Base is destroyed long before completion because Han is actually pretty great at getting intel and Leia has the political clout and experience to know not to fuck around with superweapons in play. There is an effective, functional Jedi order out there recovering kidnapped kids from a fate as stormtroopers and preventing them getting taken. This is the state of the galaxy before the first ST film takes place.
Then something like an actual Sith army appears for the first film. Not an army commanded by a Sith, an army of Sith, the likes of which hasn't existed in thousands of years. They're unstoppable in the worst ways, and the Republic is scrambling to keep things together against a force where starfighters can destroy fleets of warships. It's a threat beyond the experience of all the original characters and one for a new generation to resolve. The Jedi are still few in number, but being trained by Luke means they aren't the stiff, dogmatic robots of yesteryear. Then you've got three whole films to properly build up the Palpatine reveal. Shit, go big and skip Palpatine entirely; have Darth Plageuis make his comeback, decidedly less murdered than Palpatine thought and thoroughly pissed at how badly the Rebellion fucked up his decades of well-laid plans.
And now you've got a story that's grand enough in scope that the heroes of yesterday are still at the forefront, but they're leading all the big stuff and too busy to be down dealing with the little commando-style fights they originally did. They can't be doing that stuff because the Republic forces need them where they are, but Luke, Leia, and Han all know exactly the risks they're asking their respective proteges to take. The story now has all the room in the world for the old characters to assist the new ones without taking a big dump on them for lack of a decent story, while also having space for both the old and new characters to have their big moments.
Power creep (which is what you're describing) has its own problems.
Look at ROS, and the fleet of Star Destroyers, each armed with a superlaser, that Palpatine apparently pulled out of his withered arse. Was that a good thing?
Or look at TFA, and Starkiller Base! Lasermoon, bah! This is a hollowed-out planet, that eats stars and uses that power to fire through hyperspace and blow up not one but five planets in one shot!
Look at TLJ, and the Mega Star Dreadnought Overcompensating Supremacy! Sixty kilometers wide, half the diameter of the original Death Star!
Bigger is not always better.
Oh, but you say, it's okay if we keep the weapons and/or persons of mass destruction physically small, but immensely powerful? An army of Sith (that aren't constantly plotting and trying to kill each other)? "Starfighters [that] can destroy fleets of warships"?
I have two words for you: Sun. Crusher.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited May 2020
Star Wars always has Big Problems as the big problem, though. A Sith army gives us a) what everybody was actually expecting out of the Clone Wars and b) no fucking planet-destroying superweapons. Instead, it gives us a ton of Sith, which would be a far more insidious and difficult problem to deal with; they can land on any planet, sniff out deception and betrayal via the Force, and you can't just blow up some vital component and defeat them all at once. And it also creates a situation with infinite potential for personal conflicts since the big threat is from other sentient beings, not a big space gun.
It's also takes the thing with Luke using the Force to make an impossible shot against the Death Star and turns it against the good guys. The Sith aren't indestructible, but they can anticipate and dodge almost anything you throw at them. Just as people are getting used to the idea of Jedi helping keep the peace again, the Sith show up using the Force for terror and conquest.
It's absurd to compare that to something like the Sun Crusher, an indestructible super-ship that went around one-shotting entire solar systems. On the Star Wars scale of threats, a Sith army is practically paltry and anything but power creep. It is, however, far more complex to solve and destroy than simply blowing up one component/ship/bad guy. The Sith won't just blow up your planet for resisting, they'll show up and intimidate, murder, and mind-control everyone into cooperation. It would be all the threat and brutality of the Empire, except without relying on massive fleets and with a set of abilities that means people couldn't rebel without being found out. The whole thing is a dark reflection of the stability the Jedi kept in the Old Republic, a far more terrifying, and far less grandiose and flashy, prospect than some big space weapon.
There's nothing "bigger is better" about that situation, it's simply a version of what the galaxy has already seen in the Old Republic via the Jedi.
Or, Sith being Sith, you figure out a way to trap them all on one planet, with no one else to kill and/or terrorize, and let (their) nature take its course.
The problem should solve itself within a year. :P
I mean, we're going off the Old Republic, right? Most Sith are not Palpatine. Most Sith are loud and angry and stupid as balls. Maybe some of them are cunning, patient and (in)sidious; but the majority I've seen in the games and stories couldn't organize a bake sale without someone trying to poison the muffins or stab each other over the cashbox. An army of them may be scary, but it's the opposite of subtle; it's a big black and red hammer you hit things with.
Commander Zoom on
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
A movie based on Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic — the beloved video game first released in 2003 — is currently being written by Laeta Kalogridis (Avatar, Shutter Island) for Lucasfilm, three sources close to the project told BuzzFeed News.
...Kalogridis is close to finishing the first script of a potential KOTOR trilogy, according to the three sources.
This follows on from Revan getting a mention in the episode IX visual dictionary as a Sith Lord for whom a Final Order trooper legion is named (though this being both a Star Wars product and a JJ Abrams project, it was not even mentioned aloud in the film proper), as well as Kennedy confirming several months ago that some sort of KOTOR-related project was in the works.
I will eat this slop up like a pig from the trough but I'm disappointed they're not rolling with the High Republic setting. I'd rather they go with something completely new but at least the High Republic would be mostly different, aside from like, Dad Yoda and Young Chewbacca.
My Elevator Pitch:
With the huge caveat that I loathe most of the Jedi Academy Trilogy, they really should have had them just face the force ghost of the Emperor, not his actual reincarnated form. Go all Exar Kun, Palps tied his spirit to a Sith artifact on Exogol, and is appearing as force visions and actively manipulating people and objects to achieve his goals.
It would give the First Order some much needed motivation, since their beloved leader is obviously not dead. And it provides some explanation for the New Republic's lack of success against them, because how the fuck do you fight an enemy that can literally spy on any secret conversation? And of course Palps is gonna keep a close eye on the people who took him down the first time, so now you need the new heroes to go out and take the initiative while the old ones act as decoys.
To accomplish sidelining Luke, you make it so that he is Palp's primary living anchor (IE, it's very easy for Palps to manifest around him, verse projecting himself elsewhere), since he was there at the time of his death, and he's realized this, withdrawing into seclusion in the first movie. He gets convinced to return in the second, just in time to avert a total failure into a partial one. In the last movie, the original cast carry out a decoy plan while Rey and crew go destroy the artifact. Luke and Leia have a final end all, be all Force Battle with Palps ghost to ultimately vanquish him, and then die, with Rey taking up his mantle. Bonus points because you can get Palps secretly training Ben all these years, because Luke went away thinking he was the only issue, not realizing Palps could still reach out to him anyway, just not as easily.
As Rey connects with him, he feels Palpatine's control and influence weaken when she's around, leading to the strong attraction they find in each other. They both represent something the other needs (the salvation for Ben, the strong individual connection that Rey as an orphan craves), but also have to deal with the fact that the other person is toxic to their current point of view.
Oh and you find something interesting for Denis Lawson to do for at least the final film, instead of the travesty of putting him in a fucking gunnery turret.
Edit: Double side effect - you keep Rey being Palps granddaughter, and use that as the reason that she has such a strong dampening effect when she's around. He can't manifest to Luke or Ben with her in proximity, so she provides the lynch pin to finally keep some secrets from the Emporer.
If they didn't reset the galaxy, the legacy characters could have been sidelined by station. Leia in the new Senate, Han at her side, and Luke running his own Cheddar Monk monastery. The story can involve them, but they no longer make sense as adventurers.
Which honestly sounds a whole lot better to me than just copying the OT and having all three retiring into what they started out as: Rebel leader, aimless smuggler, hopeless guy stuck on a backwater planet.
We could've had Leia actually preparing the Republic for the First Order instead of being swept under the rug with a paltry junk fleet, Han gathering info from sleazier sources, and Luke preparing the scattered Jedi temples and scouting for new Jedi to help the galaxy in the coming war (and avoid it if possible). They could've been developed roles with full lives instead of just being cut-and-pasted versions from decades ago who have apparently accomplished nothing whatsoever despite being galactic heroes.
Nothing like the First Order should have been able to exist after the efforts required to end the Empire. The Sith needed to start on the backfoot not the front, and set about dismantling the Empire or, ya know, just not going into epic, galactic ownership plots again.
Even the old EU thought the idea that the Empire was just gonna be gone after the second Death Star blew up was wrong. The idea of the First Order makes a good amount of sense. It's just that TFA does a terrible job of explaining and establishing it.
The Empire wouldn't have vanished, you'd still have competent leaders, but it's major resources and most powerful members were dead and gone. The First Order looks like it has MORE resources than the Empire ever did, and all those resources had to come from somewhere. After two major successes by the Rebels, the forces opposed to the Empire remnants would have been huge. And even if there were Empire pockets out there, they had to have lost significant forces in two Death Star explosions.
The ST excels at making the first 6 films feel like no one ever actually achieved anything of lasting importance. Except Palpatine.
I'd honestly have found it more interesting if Kylo Ren and the Knights of Ren were a rising force capable of surviving because of sheer skill and ability when combined together. I don't know what their goal would have been but you could have dug into the lore, the mass Shadow generator on Mandalore, searching for the teachings of Revan. Think how more interesting it would be for the good guys to be following the bad guys as they themselves are following a trail, and then maybe the good guys get ahead and then it's a race against time. It's basically Indiana Jones in space.
Anyway, the First Order was a lazy story writing crutch and it showed.
The First Order is still a lot like the Imperial Remnant from the old EU. The idea that the Empire could still have considerable strength after their defeat is not some crazy idea that comes out of nowhere in the Star Wars franchise and for the most part makes sense. The First Order's strength is ... who knows honestly. None of the films spend much time trying to really articulate it. But the idea of Empire 2.0 is fine and was a thing long before JJ came around.
Most of the Imperial Remnant was largely destroyed/assimilated by the time the Solo kids were adults. Which is one of the reasons why the old EU invented the Yuuzhan Vong. It's also why the First Order, as a force that can decimate the New Republic so quickly/thoroughly, doesn't really work. There's been 30 or so years for the burgeoning New Republic to deal with these problems and these people, and they simply haven't addressed it at all apparently.
How does it not work? Not dealing with problems is like the most realistic thing ever.
It doesn't work because it's the same exact conflict with the same exact people, tactics, technology, and aesthetics. Indeed, Palpatine's inclusion in RoS is the answer to this "why is everything exactly the same?" problem.
And that doesn't work.
You want to make the central conflict be between people who have taken up the old Empire's baton and those who vowed "never again?" Fine. But do the legwork. Make it convincing. Put it on screen rather than ancillary media. Otherwise you're left to such devices as pulling Palpatine out of your ass to justify it to the audience.
And, really, as I've said many times in this/other Star Wars threads, it could be a story that works well. Make Snoke an ideologue, not a Dark Side zombie clone. Have him employ dog whistle rhetoric aimed at stoking the passions of former Imperials and younger people who find their ideology appealing. Have Ben rebel against Luke for any reason beyond Snoke/Palpatine whispering sweet nothings. Have Ben meet Hux, who eventually introduces him to Snoke.
Put another way, make Ben's fall coincide with the rise of the First Order. That way everything - the New Republic's failures (which are personified by the Skywalker family's various failures) aren't just on screen but is what propels the first part of the story forward. We see it, so we feel it, which is a hell of a lot more compelling than being told - directly or indirectly - what happened off screen. It also directly answers the question of "why are we fighting this same war again?" in a far more satisfying way than a book most people won't read and Palpatine.
A movie based on Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic — the beloved video game first released in 2003 — is currently being written by Laeta Kalogridis (Avatar, Shutter Island) for Lucasfilm, three sources close to the project told BuzzFeed News.
...Kalogridis is close to finishing the first script of a potential KOTOR trilogy, according to the three sources.
This follows on from Revan getting a mention in the episode IX visual dictionary as a Sith Lord for whom a Final Order trooper legion is named (though this being both a Star Wars product and a JJ Abrams project, it was not even mentioned aloud in the film proper), as well as Kennedy confirming several months ago that some sort of KOTOR-related project was in the works.
I will eat this slop up like a pig from the trough but I'm disappointed they're not rolling with the High Republic setting. I'd rather they go with something completely new but at least the High Republic would be mostly different, aside from like, Dad Yoda and Young Chewbacca.
After all the problems they've had making the story up as they go, it's probably a good idea to start with a finished and positively remembered story. And even if it's all old news to us, I imagine there is probably a pretty large audience that hasn't played a game that came out nearly twenty years ago, so they should even be able to get a good reaction on the twist.
The biggest problem is probably trying to cut 60 hours of a character-heavy story down to 6-8 hours. Like HK-47 and Jolee Bindo are great memorable characters, and even if you don't see them until the last planet, you still get a solid 15 hours to learn about them and hear their story. Now imagine they don't show up until the third movie, and only get about 5-6 minutes of screen time, like say Zorii Bliss.
But, hear me out here, what if we had Hitler show up again.
This would be funny if we weren't having a not-so-subtle resurgence in Nazi ways of thinking right this second. Like we're coming up on a century since WW2 and yet somehow we have people in America still spouting third reichy white supremacist bullshit. Is it really so hard to to believe that history repeats itself, quite often in fact, right in front of people who should know better? Who have the means to do better? And yet failed because of inaction, because of in-fighting in a supposed democracy? Turns out, real life is often stupider than fiction.
Yeesh modern nerds really think the sequel trilogy is so bad and yet they're living in their own personal ST everyday
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
But, hear me out here, what if we had Hitler show up again.
This would be funny if we weren't having a not-so-subtle resurgence in Nazi ways of thinking right this second. Like we're coming up on a century since WW2 and yet somehow we have people in America still spouting third reichy white supremacist bullshit. Is it really so hard to to believe that history repeats itself, quite often in fact, right in front of people who should know better? Who have the means to do better? And yet failed because of inaction, because of in-fighting in a supposed democracy? Turns out, real life is often stupider than fiction.
Yeesh modern nerds really think the sequel trilogy is so bad and yet they're living in their own personal ST everyday
It's fuckin' wild to me because like I said, it was blindingly obvious that Hux and the gang were failson Tiki Nazis long before I read Bloodline. But the politics weren't the focus of this trilogy. And thank fuck for that.
If you want everything spelled out for you go read the EU but the movies were never going to do that, there just isn't enough screentime. This thread is at its worst when it devolves into fanfiction hot takes. It's so tiresome.
But, hear me out here, what if we had Hitler show up again.
This would be funny if we weren't having a not-so-subtle resurgence in Nazi ways of thinking right this second. Like we're coming up on a century since WW2 and yet somehow we have people in America still spouting third reichy white supremacist bullshit. Is it really so hard to to believe that history repeats itself, quite often in fact, right in front of people who should know better? Who have the means to do better? And yet failed because of inaction, because of in-fighting in a supposed democracy? Turns out, real life is often stupider than fiction.
Yeesh modern nerds really think the sequel trilogy is so bad and yet they're living in their own personal ST everyday
It's fuckin' wild to me because like I said, it was blindingly obvious that Hux and the gang were failson Tiki Nazis long before I read Bloodline. But the politics weren't the focus of this trilogy. And thank fuck for that.
If you want everything spelled out for you go read the EU but the movies were never going to do that, there just isn't enough screentime. This thread is at its worst when it devolves into fanfiction hot takes. It's so tiresome.
People were talking about it all over the place after TFA dropped. The First Order is very alt-right, with Kylo Ren as it's incel school-shooter wannabe-Vader.
I think there are definitely elements of the politics of the situation that TFA needed to clarify more (some idea of the general relationship between the First Order and the New Republic and the Resistance and such) but a lot of the broad strokes are pretty clear via the movie's implied storytelling and especially in the last decade or so, none of those broad strokes seems all that strange.
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
edited May 2020
The whole “fall of the republic and rise of the empire” was based on the Roman Empire more than the Nazis. If anything, following the fall of the empire there should be growing alien religious fanatics and criminal warlords carving up the galaxy, with a very broken and fragmented Byzantine-esque Empire still going on but no one takes them seriously and continually raids them.
But I doubt JJ Abrams or anyone else writing the ST knows anything about Roman history or mythology like Lucas did so not surprised they totally overlooked it
The whole “fall of the republic and rise of the empire” was based on the Roman Empire more than the Nazis. If anything, following the fall of the empire there should be growing alien religious fanatics and criminal warlords carving up the galaxy, with a very broken and fragmented Byzantine-esque Empire still going on but no one takes them seriously and continually raids them.
But I doubt JJ Abrams or anyone else writing the ST knows anything about Roman history or mythology like Lucas did so not surprised they totally overlooked it
The Empire was all about the nazi connections since day 1. It was never meant to be an analogy for the roman republic/empire.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Because Hitler isn't literally coming back from the grave, dude. We are dealing with Nazis, but they are our Nazis. That's the problem. They wanted to make it look like they were making a commentary on anything, but they aren't.
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
The whole “fall of the republic and rise of the empire” was based on the Roman Empire more than the Nazis. If anything, following the fall of the empire there should be growing alien religious fanatics and criminal warlords carving up the galaxy, with a very broken and fragmented Byzantine-esque Empire still going on but no one takes them seriously and continually raids them.
But I doubt JJ Abrams or anyone else writing the ST knows anything about Roman history or mythology like Lucas did so not surprised they totally overlooked it
The Empire was all about the nazi connections since day 1. It was never meant to be an analogy for the roman republic/empire.
Because Hitler isn't literally coming back from the grave, dude. We are dealing with Nazis, but they are our Nazis. That's the problem. They wanted to make it look like they were making a commentary on anything, but they aren't.
Turns out we were the Nazis all along.
Orca on
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Because Hitler isn't literally coming back from the grave, dude. We are dealing with Nazis, but they are our Nazis. That's the problem. They wanted to make it look like they were making a commentary on anything, but they aren't.
Turns out we were the Nazis all along.
I will say that the plethora of WW2 "kill all the Nazis" games haven't helped humanity understand that it was regular people who were Nazis, not some mutant breed that we managed to wipe out by the end of the war. The idea that you can slap a label on someone and suddenly it becomes OK to just mow them down is a bit problematic in the broader context, especially when it comes to kids.
See also: The U.S. Civil War and racism
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Because Hitler isn't literally coming back from the grave, dude. We are dealing with Nazis, but they are our Nazis. That's the problem. They wanted to make it look like they were making a commentary on anything, but they aren't.
Turns out we were the Nazis all along.
I will say that the plethora of WW2 "kill all the Nazis" games haven't helped humanity understand that it was regular people who were Nazis, not some mutant breed that we managed to wipe out by the end of the war. The idea that you can slap a label on someone and suddenly it becomes OK to just mow them down is a bit problematic in the broader context, especially when it comes to kids.
See also: The U.S. Civil War and racism
I mean, I was saying it flippantly, but I don't remember being taught in highschool about how the Nazis were literally cribbing actions from the US, or how we denied entry to Jewish refugees trying to escape, or how and why Reconstruction failed, and what it meant in the context of racism and white supremacy...
So we were, quite literally, the Nazis all along, pretty much since the failure of Reconstruction.
edit: and of course if we want to look further back, we've been racist shitbags since before the founding of the country with the slave trade and extermination of indigenous people.
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Finn is on a light speeder thing traveling at let’s say 200kph, that’s a nasty traffic accident but it’s far from Holdo’s energy which is probably supernova-esque in scope.
Couldn't we just hammer nails through our dicks instead.
There are seven members within the Knights of Ren, so each of them will be defined by a sin. Kylo Ren is wrath and effectively stays the same.
The other six are spread out among the galaxy, inflicting harm in their own ways (except for one).
-- The Knight of Greed is a merchant lord in the galactic banking trade and is the primary source of the First Order's funds.
-- The Knight of Lust is an assassin, targeting force-users as they become active & known, as to eliminate possible threats to the First Order.
-- The Knight of Gluttony is a crime lord, who is primarily maintaining a neutrality alliance between the First Order and the different crime syndicates.
-- The Knight of Sloth is a former warrior who betrayed the Knights & Kylo Ren, and is now in hiding from them.
-- The Knight of Envy is a thief, stealing anything from important resources to military intelligence as to aid the First Order.
-- The Knight of Pride is a senator who has been manipulating the New Republic from adequately investigating and combating the First Order, using governmental bureaucracy as a hammer.
-- And finally The Knight of Wrath, Kylo Ren, is leading the First Order in their conquest. His story-line stays about the same as what we are shown in the Force Awakens.
The difference here is that there is no Snoke. Instead, the Knights of Ren effectively took over the remnants of the empire (the early stages of the First Order) and now control it via there different means/influences.
The sequels then follow Rey, Poe, & Finn going against the Knights of Ren in different ways.
The First Order is still a lot like the Imperial Remnant from the old EU. The idea that the Empire could still have considerable strength after their defeat is not some crazy idea that comes out of nowhere in the Star Wars franchise and for the most part makes sense. The First Order's strength is ... who knows honestly. None of the films spend much time trying to really articulate it. But the idea of Empire 2.0 is fine and was a thing long before JJ came around.
Let’s consider the physics of that for a moment.
2) Forget all of that, and just tell me the story of how the most badass bounty hunter in the galaxy, with special space armor, a gawddamn jetpack and a bunch of other weapons, simply beat the shit out of the almighty sarlacc from the inside and then just flew out again when he was done.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
"I... am Lasermoon."
Most of the Imperial Remnant was largely destroyed/assimilated by the time the Solo kids were adults. Which is one of the reasons why the old EU invented the Yuuzhan Vong. It's also why the First Order, as a force that can decimate the New Republic so quickly/thoroughly, doesn't really work. There's been 30 or so years for the burgeoning New Republic to deal with these problems and these people, and they simply haven't addressed it at all apparently.
My version would be dead simple.
Snoke was an inquisitor / secret apprentice of the Emperor, who excelled at mind tricks but was rubbish at laser swords. Vader bested him and is why he’s all ganked up. After the empire falls he gathers up a piece for himself far from the core worlds; we establish a home planet for the First Order in the first movie and show their scale to be one planet’s worth of ships.
Gonna have to think of a reason why Ben is such an asshole. Maybe he met Snoke while searching for a Jedi ruin to learn new techniques because he thought (rightly) that Luke was keeping parts of the skill tree from him. Master manipulator, perhaps Snoke filled him fulla mind tricks before sending him home. Ben rebels against Luke, but doesn’t kill all the students. One will do, one named murder to kick off his descent and belief he can’t go back.
The Knights of Ren are a bunch of people Ben met along the way, just as a Star Wars protagonist might. Only because he’s this wannabe Master they have to be his knights, not friends. They’d be:
The pilot. A regular Joe that mooks for Ben, and fills the ace pilot role Poe has to Rey. Someone he can talk to, at least on the rare occasion he lets his guard down. Known him the longest. Can wear a helmet and have a jet pack when out of his ship I guess.
The oracle. A subtle Force sensitive alien that holds the second protagonist spot Fin has to Rey. Cruel, and likely replaces Ben in Poe and Rey’s mind torture scene. Very cowardly, they’re the “fear leads to suffering” bit of the Dark Side.
The droid. Gotta have a robot pal, right? The tech savvy slicer. They act as a living voice to Ben’s doubts, making snarky comments about whatever they’re up.
The chewie. A towering beast with grenades and a hand-canon. No chill, they’re Ben’s anger embodied. The most loyal to Ben.
The wronged. Unlike Ben who is a huge baby this guy’s family were killed by rebels, or bandits justifying a raid on an Imperial town at the end of the war. Has some cool whip or whatever and kills folks. Totally has to be killed by Ben in the last movie to metaphorically free himself.
Finally, while Hux is not a knight he’s been assigned to oversee (Snoke says to him) or job for (Snoke to Ben) them. Ben and him are stuck together and share the same two kids trying to impress their dad act they already had in TFA. In this version he’s slightly lower down the chain of command, but still high enough to give speeches.
By the start of the first movie Ben arrived ‘by chance’ at the First Order’s planet while on his runaway journey no more than a year prior, and has begun to train under Snoke. By the end of the movie Snoke has picked the allegiances of the knights apart and calls Ben ‘Master of the Knights of Ren’ purely to mock him. Since I’m saying Snoke was a secret apprentice let’s allude the oracle knight might be one to him too, to further dilute the idea Ben is anything more than an enforcer who thinks they’re special.
That’s what I’d do.
In the new continuity, the various backers of the Rebellion seem to have immediately declared MISSION ACCOMPLISHED and fucked off pulled back to their own systems, because they were all heartily sick of the Empire and didn't want another... leaving a massive gaping power vacuum for someone to come along and fill. It was a (New) Republic that existed on paper only, or would if there was any paper in the GFFA. A case can be made that in the end, the Separatists (or at least their cause) won.
The latter, sadly, has more basis in our history - look at the period between the "Great War", aka "the War to End All Wars", and the one that (inevitably, in hindsight) came after, with special attention to how Germany was left to rearm and stomp all over everyone in the rematch, and the utterly impotent League of Nations (a group even more high-minded yet useless than its modern successor the UN, if that can be imagined).
It's pretty much this, heavy spoilers for Bloodline here:
It's all extremely similar to US politics and it strikes me as kind of silly when people say that that it's implausible. It was more or less my read on it before reading Bloodline. It's pretty obvious the parallels that are being drawn between real world resurgent fascism in the ST.
It's a desperate shame that we didn't get a sequel to the last movie, and instead got an entire new series of movies crammed into just under 2 1/2 hours. The character development of Kylo being erased and rewritten is particularly disappointing, since his journey had been the most interesting out of any of them, I think. People say they hate Rey in this; I think she's fine, considering what has been done to her character. Daisy Ridley is great. The force dyad thing is neat (fuck the haters) and informed by their pasts, but I do think Abrams leaned too hard on the interesting space-sharing space-and-time fuckery that featured in TLJ.
Whatever. I'm tired. Thinking about this movie in the context of the rest of the movies makes me tired and a little sad. It had a lot of cool moments though. It looked good. McDiarmid is the best, even though he should have been a thousand miles away from this picture.
Anyway that wraps up our runthrough of the Star Wars films, so in celebration, let's stop thinking and be self indulgent (just like JJ Abrams amirite ohhhhhhh I'm here all week):
Tentative Star Wars Movie Power Ranking:
1: Empire Strikes Back
2: The Last Jedi
3: A New Hope
4: Return of the Jedi
5: Rogue One
6: The Force Awakens
7/8: Revenge of the Sith / Rise of Skywalker (can't tell where these land yet, one is tedious with some solid moments, and actually follows through and ties up its trilogy's plot, where the other is probably more immediately entertaining, with better acting and visuals, but reads like a teenager's dream journal after binge-watching all the Star Wars movies in a row)
9: Solo I guess, it's pretty bleak on this end of the list
10: Attack of the Clones
11: The Phantom Menace
12: The Clone Wars (the animated movie which I'm counting here because this somehow got a theatrical release)
How does it not work? Not dealing with problems is like the most realistic thing ever.
A year or two after RotJ, the New Republic and all it's citizens learn that the whole fucking thing was due to a powerful force user with a vendetta against other force users. They then decide force users have to rounded up or exiled or executed or whatever, depending on the individual state. Even Luke Skywalker, possibly. Luke is simultaneously celebrated and distrusted, some saying he especially needs to be controlled as he is very powerful and the son of space Goebbels. Luke could live mostly free thanks to his sister and the military (having fought on the frontlines with regular soldiers earns him respect and trust), but Luke leaves as a sign of protest. He tells no one where he goes, especially Leia, in order to protect her. Later it's revealed that Leia is indeed force sensitive and hid it
Han and Leia's son, Ben, is of course a force sensitive with great potential. Unknown to anyone, he secretly trains himself. With no guidance, his training is haphazard, with both light and dark side powers developing. One day he loses control and force fries a dozen people, leading to his arrest and subsequent imprisonment in a brutal camp for force users. Han decides to break him out and take him on the run, not telling Leia to again protect her. While searching for Luke, some mysterious force users clad all in black attack. They kidnap Ben, strand Han and Chewie on a backwater planet, and sell the Falcon. Leia resigns from whatever office she held, and
Meanwhile...
A few years ago, a new terrorist group forms on the other side of the galaxy. It is learned that they are lead by a powerful force user. The New Republic shits itself. Luckily, there is a band of guerrilla fighters who want to stop this terrorist group. The New Republic sends them supplies, made up mostly of leftover imperial gear, to have them fight this terrorist group. The fighters apparently win, but suffer heavy losses. They ask the New Reoublic for help, but the NR says nope, you're on your own. The guerilla fighters feel, betrayed, and swear to never again be taken advantage of.
Leia real high up and influential in the New Republic, retaining her royalty as queen of a nomadic fleet. Han as a decent husband, who has a side gig running a galaxy wide casino / not-too-shady smuggling and intelligence ring. Luke head of a new successful Jedi order that ditches a lot of the dumb rules because he simply never learnt them. Like, Wedge? Wedge runs the X-Wing school. CP3O lives in a library and has robot tea; he’s retired.
Thing is, that doesn’t make for a great story. Any story after that foundation would have to take place after they died, because no bad guys are taking over with my Level 100 Super version of the characters.
Which is... probably why you wanna set stories well after them and far away from known places to begin with.
This follows on from Revan getting a mention in the episode IX visual dictionary as a Sith Lord for whom a Final Order trooper legion is named (though this being both a Star Wars product and a JJ Abrams project, it was not even mentioned aloud in the film proper), as well as Kennedy confirming several months ago that some sort of KOTOR-related project was in the works.
Hell, you could even make a good story out of rehashing the OT to set up the galaxy, except this time the good guys are in a position of power and can make the smart, effective countermoves. Starkiller Base is destroyed long before completion because Han is actually pretty great at getting intel and Leia has the political clout and experience to know not to fuck around with superweapons in play. There is an effective, functional Jedi order out there recovering kidnapped kids from a fate as stormtroopers and preventing them getting taken. This is the state of the galaxy before the first ST film takes place.
Then something like an actual Sith army appears for the first film. Not an army commanded by a Sith, an army of Sith, the likes of which hasn't existed in thousands of years. They're unstoppable in the worst ways, and the Republic is scrambling to keep things together against a force where starfighters can destroy fleets of warships. It's a threat beyond the experience of all the original characters and one for a new generation to resolve. The Jedi are still few in number, but being trained by Luke means they aren't the stiff, dogmatic robots of yesteryear. Then you've got three whole films to properly build up the Palpatine reveal. Shit, go big and skip Palpatine entirely; have Darth Plageuis make his comeback, decidedly less murdered than Palpatine thought and thoroughly pissed at how badly the Rebellion fucked up his decades of well-laid plans.
And now you've got a story that's grand enough in scope that the heroes of yesterday are still at the forefront, but they're leading all the big stuff and too busy to be down dealing with the little commando-style fights they originally did. They can't be doing that stuff because the Republic forces need them where they are, but Luke, Leia, and Han all know exactly the risks they're asking their respective proteges to take. The story now has all the room in the world for the old characters to assist the new ones without taking a big dump on them for lack of a decent story, while also having space for both the old and new characters to have their big moments.
Look at ROS, and the fleet of Star Destroyers, each armed with a superlaser, that Palpatine apparently pulled out of his withered arse. Was that a good thing?
Or look at TFA, and Starkiller Base! Lasermoon, bah! This is a hollowed-out planet, that eats stars and uses that power to fire through hyperspace and blow up not one but five planets in one shot!
Look at TLJ, and the Mega Star Dreadnought Overcompensating Supremacy! Sixty kilometers wide, half the diameter of the original Death Star!
Bigger is not always better.
Oh, but you say, it's okay if we keep the weapons and/or persons of mass destruction physically small, but immensely powerful? An army of Sith (that aren't constantly plotting and trying to kill each other)? "Starfighters [that] can destroy fleets of warships"?
I have two words for you:
Sun. Crusher.
It's also takes the thing with Luke using the Force to make an impossible shot against the Death Star and turns it against the good guys. The Sith aren't indestructible, but they can anticipate and dodge almost anything you throw at them. Just as people are getting used to the idea of Jedi helping keep the peace again, the Sith show up using the Force for terror and conquest.
It's absurd to compare that to something like the Sun Crusher, an indestructible super-ship that went around one-shotting entire solar systems. On the Star Wars scale of threats, a Sith army is practically paltry and anything but power creep. It is, however, far more complex to solve and destroy than simply blowing up one component/ship/bad guy. The Sith won't just blow up your planet for resisting, they'll show up and intimidate, murder, and mind-control everyone into cooperation. It would be all the threat and brutality of the Empire, except without relying on massive fleets and with a set of abilities that means people couldn't rebel without being found out. The whole thing is a dark reflection of the stability the Jedi kept in the Old Republic, a far more terrifying, and far less grandiose and flashy, prospect than some big space weapon.
There's nothing "bigger is better" about that situation, it's simply a version of what the galaxy has already seen in the Old Republic via the Jedi.
The problem should solve itself within a year. :P
I mean, we're going off the Old Republic, right? Most Sith are not Palpatine. Most Sith are loud and angry and stupid as balls. Maybe some of them are cunning, patient and (in)sidious; but the majority I've seen in the games and stories couldn't organize a bake sale without someone trying to poison the muffins or stab each other over the cashbox. An army of them may be scary, but it's the opposite of subtle; it's a big black and red hammer you hit things with.
I will eat this slop up like a pig from the trough but I'm disappointed they're not rolling with the High Republic setting. I'd rather they go with something completely new but at least the High Republic would be mostly different, aside from like, Dad Yoda and Young Chewbacca.
With the huge caveat that I loathe most of the Jedi Academy Trilogy, they really should have had them just face the force ghost of the Emperor, not his actual reincarnated form. Go all Exar Kun, Palps tied his spirit to a Sith artifact on Exogol, and is appearing as force visions and actively manipulating people and objects to achieve his goals.
It would give the First Order some much needed motivation, since their beloved leader is obviously not dead. And it provides some explanation for the New Republic's lack of success against them, because how the fuck do you fight an enemy that can literally spy on any secret conversation? And of course Palps is gonna keep a close eye on the people who took him down the first time, so now you need the new heroes to go out and take the initiative while the old ones act as decoys.
To accomplish sidelining Luke, you make it so that he is Palp's primary living anchor (IE, it's very easy for Palps to manifest around him, verse projecting himself elsewhere), since he was there at the time of his death, and he's realized this, withdrawing into seclusion in the first movie. He gets convinced to return in the second, just in time to avert a total failure into a partial one. In the last movie, the original cast carry out a decoy plan while Rey and crew go destroy the artifact. Luke and Leia have a final end all, be all Force Battle with Palps ghost to ultimately vanquish him, and then die, with Rey taking up his mantle. Bonus points because you can get Palps secretly training Ben all these years, because Luke went away thinking he was the only issue, not realizing Palps could still reach out to him anyway, just not as easily.
As Rey connects with him, he feels Palpatine's control and influence weaken when she's around, leading to the strong attraction they find in each other. They both represent something the other needs (the salvation for Ben, the strong individual connection that Rey as an orphan craves), but also have to deal with the fact that the other person is toxic to their current point of view.
Oh and you find something interesting for Denis Lawson to do for at least the final film, instead of the travesty of putting him in a fucking gunnery turret.
Edit: Double side effect - you keep Rey being Palps granddaughter, and use that as the reason that she has such a strong dampening effect when she's around. He can't manifest to Luke or Ben with her in proximity, so she provides the lynch pin to finally keep some secrets from the Emporer.
It doesn't work because it's the same exact conflict with the same exact people, tactics, technology, and aesthetics. Indeed, Palpatine's inclusion in RoS is the answer to this "why is everything exactly the same?" problem.
And that doesn't work.
You want to make the central conflict be between people who have taken up the old Empire's baton and those who vowed "never again?" Fine. But do the legwork. Make it convincing. Put it on screen rather than ancillary media. Otherwise you're left to such devices as pulling Palpatine out of your ass to justify it to the audience.
And, really, as I've said many times in this/other Star Wars threads, it could be a story that works well. Make Snoke an ideologue, not a Dark Side zombie clone. Have him employ dog whistle rhetoric aimed at stoking the passions of former Imperials and younger people who find their ideology appealing. Have Ben rebel against Luke for any reason beyond Snoke/Palpatine whispering sweet nothings. Have Ben meet Hux, who eventually introduces him to Snoke.
Put another way, make Ben's fall coincide with the rise of the First Order. That way everything - the New Republic's failures (which are personified by the Skywalker family's various failures) aren't just on screen but is what propels the first part of the story forward. We see it, so we feel it, which is a hell of a lot more compelling than being told - directly or indirectly - what happened off screen. It also directly answers the question of "why are we fighting this same war again?" in a far more satisfying way than a book most people won't read and Palpatine.
After all the problems they've had making the story up as they go, it's probably a good idea to start with a finished and positively remembered story. And even if it's all old news to us, I imagine there is probably a pretty large audience that hasn't played a game that came out nearly twenty years ago, so they should even be able to get a good reaction on the twist.
The biggest problem is probably trying to cut 60 hours of a character-heavy story down to 6-8 hours. Like HK-47 and Jolee Bindo are great memorable characters, and even if you don't see them until the last planet, you still get a solid 15 hours to learn about them and hear their story. Now imagine they don't show up until the third movie, and only get about 5-6 minutes of screen time, like say Zorii Bliss.
This would be funny if we weren't having a not-so-subtle resurgence in Nazi ways of thinking right this second. Like we're coming up on a century since WW2 and yet somehow we have people in America still spouting third reichy white supremacist bullshit. Is it really so hard to to believe that history repeats itself, quite often in fact, right in front of people who should know better? Who have the means to do better? And yet failed because of inaction, because of in-fighting in a supposed democracy? Turns out, real life is often stupider than fiction.
Yeesh modern nerds really think the sequel trilogy is so bad and yet they're living in their own personal ST everyday
It's fuckin' wild to me because like I said, it was blindingly obvious that Hux and the gang were failson Tiki Nazis long before I read Bloodline. But the politics weren't the focus of this trilogy. And thank fuck for that.
If you want everything spelled out for you go read the EU but the movies were never going to do that, there just isn't enough screentime. This thread is at its worst when it devolves into fanfiction hot takes. It's so tiresome.
People were talking about it all over the place after TFA dropped. The First Order is very alt-right, with Kylo Ren as it's incel school-shooter wannabe-Vader.
I think there are definitely elements of the politics of the situation that TFA needed to clarify more (some idea of the general relationship between the First Order and the New Republic and the Resistance and such) but a lot of the broad strokes are pretty clear via the movie's implied storytelling and especially in the last decade or so, none of those broad strokes seems all that strange.
But I doubt JJ Abrams or anyone else writing the ST knows anything about Roman history or mythology like Lucas did so not surprised they totally overlooked it
The Empire was all about the nazi connections since day 1. It was never meant to be an analogy for the roman republic/empire.
Like everything else there was never a 1:1 analogy for Star Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sources_and_analogues#Real_world_history
Turns out we were the Nazis all along.
I will say that the plethora of WW2 "kill all the Nazis" games haven't helped humanity understand that it was regular people who were Nazis, not some mutant breed that we managed to wipe out by the end of the war. The idea that you can slap a label on someone and suddenly it becomes OK to just mow them down is a bit problematic in the broader context, especially when it comes to kids.
See also: The U.S. Civil War and racism
I mean, I was saying it flippantly, but I don't remember being taught in highschool about how the Nazis were literally cribbing actions from the US, or how we denied entry to Jewish refugees trying to escape, or how and why Reconstruction failed, and what it meant in the context of racism and white supremacy...
So we were, quite literally, the Nazis all along, pretty much since the failure of Reconstruction.
edit: and of course if we want to look further back, we've been racist shitbags since before the founding of the country with the slave trade and extermination of indigenous people.