[Star Wars] There are two lights! abers.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Dealing with the Knights of Ren in TROS was stupid anyway. They were a loose end that could have been explored in a TV show or movie later on, but nah, better to just have them be chumps with 30 seconds of screen time.

    "Snoke arranged for them to die because letting your apprentice have a loyal force sensitive murder-squad is steps one through five to being replaced"
    RedTide wrote: »
    Snoke arranged for them to die?

    No, I'm just pointing out that you can kill them off screen before TFA and it's not just plausible, it makes more in universe sense then them being alive

    You know what would probably work even better? Kylo Ren is the only surviving member because Snoke basically said "there's only 1 opening for Dark Side apprentice" and they took care of the rest themselves.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Dealing with the Knights of Ren in TROS was stupid anyway. They were a loose end that could have been explored in a TV show or movie later on, but nah, better to just have them be chumps with 30 seconds of screen time.

    "Snoke arranged for them to die because letting your apprentice have a loyal force sensitive murder-squad is steps one through five to being replaced"
    RedTide wrote: »
    Snoke arranged for them to die?

    No, I'm just pointing out that you can kill them off screen before TFA and it's not just plausible, it makes more in universe sense then them being alive

    You know what would probably work even better? Kylo Ren is the only surviving member because Snoke basically said "there's only 1 opening for Dark Side apprentice" and they took care of the rest themselves.

    That also works - bonus points if Adam Driver reenacts the bulldog scene from Surviving the Game when telling Rey or Luke about what happened.

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Dealing with the Knights of Ren in TROS was stupid anyway. They were a loose end that could have been explored in a TV show or movie later on, but nah, better to just have them be chumps with 30 seconds of screen time.

    "Snoke arranged for them to die because letting your apprentice have a loyal force sensitive murder-squad is steps one through five to being replaced"
    RedTide wrote: »
    Snoke arranged for them to die?

    No, I'm just pointing out that you can kill them off screen before TFA and it's not just plausible, it makes more in universe sense then them being alive

    You know what would probably work even better? Kylo Ren is the only surviving member because Snoke basically said "there's only 1 opening for Dark Side apprentice" and they took care of the rest themselves.

    Then he breaks a space-pool cue in half over his knee and tosses the shards to the assembled throng.
    "So, we're gonna have try outs... Make it fast."

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Dealing with the Knights of Ren in TROS was stupid anyway. They were a loose end that could have been explored in a TV show or movie later on, but nah, better to just have them be chumps with 30 seconds of screen time.

    "Snoke arranged for them to die because letting your apprentice have a loyal force sensitive murder-squad is steps one through five to being replaced"
    RedTide wrote: »
    Snoke arranged for them to die?

    No, I'm just pointing out that you can kill them off screen before TFA and it's not just plausible, it makes more in universe sense then them being alive

    You know what would probably work even better? Kylo Ren is the only surviving member because Snoke basically said "there's only 1 opening for Dark Side apprentice" and they took care of the rest themselves.

    Then he breaks a space-pool cue in half over his knee and tosses the shards to the assembled throng.
    "So, we're gonna have try outs... Make it fast."

    A double-bladed lightsaber actually.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Who the fuck knows?

    And honestly, does knowing who or what they are matter to the story one bit?

    No. And really they wouldnt matter if only when palpatine had said he was all the sith the film hadnt cut to them to make it a point of making them seem like it

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Who the fuck knows?

    And honestly, does knowing who or what they are matter to the story one bit?

    No. And really they wouldnt matter if only when palpatine had said he was all the sith the film hadnt cut to them to make it a point of making them seem like it

    And also, they didn't walk in like people, they kinda faded into existence. The majority of the people in that room aren't real; they're evil Force ghosty things.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Who the fuck knows?

    And honestly, does knowing who or what they are matter to the story one bit?

    No. And really they wouldnt matter if only when palpatine had said he was all the sith the film hadnt cut to them to make it a point of making them seem like it

    And also, they didn't walk in like people, they kinda faded into existence. The majority of the people in that room aren't real; they're evil Force ghosty things.

    Jesus fuck

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    The Force was a lot better when Light/Dark was mostly a description of how it was used rather than an actual flavor of the Force itself. Like, a person could fall to the Dark Side because power is usually corruptive, but the Force should be amoral.

    A friend put forward the idea I like that the force is amoral. The dark side isnt evil but by its nature its not meant for living things. He quotes Yoda with "luminous beings are we".

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Who the fuck knows?

    And honestly, does knowing who or what they are matter to the story one bit?

    No. And really they wouldnt matter if only when palpatine had said he was all the sith the film hadnt cut to them to make it a point of making them seem like it

    And also, they didn't walk in like people, they kinda faded into existence. The majority of the people in that room aren't real; they're evil Force ghosty things.

    Really? I missed that. I just thought they were a faceless mass of mortal cultists there to make Palps look more menacing and show the reach he has even in his undeath.

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    When Palpatine is giving one of his big speeches, the camera pans around the empty room and the Sith things basically fill in with a wipe.

    Ed: now, maybe it was supposed to be an illusion of an empty room that was dispersed, revealing the cultists behind it, but who knows at that point. :)

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  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    I take umbrage with calling the knights of Ren a loose end.

    that's way too generous a description for meaningless throwaway line!


    but yeah I saw that i could watch TROS digitally now (presumably released but i ain't going to a best buy in a global pandemic to find out) and realized I'm not even remotely interested in ever doing that. I guess we've crossed a threshold where "the main thing is complete and now i'm just gonna only care about the ones i like" and ya know, I guess that's all i can ask for.

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  • CristovalCristoval Registered User regular
    I liked Lukes line in TLJ about Ben "taking a handful of students" with him after the destroying his academy which perfectly set up who the Knights of Ren were, only to have JJ absolutely whiff on it later.

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    I don't even know what is 100% canon anymore, but I know that the movies never really discuss Sith much, just set them up as bad guys. They use it synonymously with Dark Side users, there's zero point in splitting that particular hair in regards to the movies. Literally, there's just no reason to do it, just like there's no point in arguing Jedi aren't the only Light Side users; the only time we hear Jedi or Sith is in referring to Light or Dark users and, since we don't see any other kind of Force user in the setting, that's the setup for Light and Dark.

    Thanks that’s what I was getting at

    This is the context I have- R1 is the only non-mainline SW media I’ve ever consumed, so from that perspective, looking back on Anakin being prophesied to restore balance to the force is a real head scratcher- there are no active dark side users at this time per what the movie scripts alone give us

    What exactly is balanced about a bazillion jedi vs. two sith?

    In the end Anikan succeeded by wiping most stronger force users out.

  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    I think you could have a ton of Jedi and zero Sith and have balance. However...

    PT Jedi mostly aren't in balance, personally or as an organization. They're mostly tipped too far toward the idea of Light, into stagnancy and suppression, out of fear and hate of the Dark (nice bit of irony there) which leads directly to their downfall (if Mace Windu agrees to arrest Palpatine instead of confirming Anakin's insane delusions due to his own fear and hate for Palpatine, Anakin probably doesn't fall).

    It's a lesson even Yoda learned late (S6 TCW). Apparently a comic a year or so ago had Qui-Gon understanding it pretty early and even sensing darkness in Anakin as a child, but not seeing it as a problem. And then he dies and Obi-Wan, nice guy but not really equipped to deal with that...well. Doesn't handle it as well as he could have.

    ...all this with the caveat that this interpretation of the Light, Dark, Balance, and How Smart Qui-Gon Was isn't necessarily in line with the original intentions during the OT, or the later original intentions with the PT, it's just where we've arrived.

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  • AnteCantelopeAnteCantelope Registered User regular
    I don't even know what is 100% canon anymore, but I know that the movies never really discuss Sith much, just set them up as bad guys. They use it synonymously with Dark Side users, there's zero point in splitting that particular hair in regards to the movies. Literally, there's just no reason to do it, just like there's no point in arguing Jedi aren't the only Light Side users; the only time we hear Jedi or Sith is in referring to Light or Dark users and, since we don't see any other kind of Force user in the setting, that's the setup for Light and Dark.

    Thanks that’s what I was getting at

    This is the context I have- R1 is the only non-mainline SW media I’ve ever consumed, so from that perspective, looking back on Anakin being prophesied to restore balance to the force is a real head scratcher- there are no active dark side users at this time per what the movie scripts alone give us

    What exactly is balanced about a bazillion jedi vs. two sith?

    In the end Anikan succeeded by wiping most stronger force users out.

    I think we're meant to think of 'balance' differently. It's not like a seesaw, with light on one side and dark on the other, and balancing the seesaw. It's like a boat, with light sitting calmly in the boat and dark thrashing about and threatening to capsize it.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    As ever, it's all a matter of your point of view.

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    I don't even know what is 100% canon anymore, but I know that the movies never really discuss Sith much, just set them up as bad guys. They use it synonymously with Dark Side users, there's zero point in splitting that particular hair in regards to the movies. Literally, there's just no reason to do it, just like there's no point in arguing Jedi aren't the only Light Side users; the only time we hear Jedi or Sith is in referring to Light or Dark users and, since we don't see any other kind of Force user in the setting, that's the setup for Light and Dark.

    Thanks that’s what I was getting at

    This is the context I have- R1 is the only non-mainline SW media I’ve ever consumed, so from that perspective, looking back on Anakin being prophesied to restore balance to the force is a real head scratcher- there are no active dark side users at this time per what the movie scripts alone give us

    What exactly is balanced about a bazillion jedi vs. two sith?

    In the end Anikan succeeded by wiping most stronger force users out.

    I think we're meant to think of 'balance' differently. It's not like a seesaw, with light on one side and dark on the other, and balancing the seesaw. It's like a boat, with light sitting calmly in the boat and dark thrashing about and threatening to capsize it.

    Based on what exactly.

    Jedi never talk about balance (the proper median between two extremes), and its pretty blatant that PT ones don't have any. They the types to frown on even romance because of the lure of the dark side. Or not train a padawan because he has negative emotions. Or tell Luke to forsake his friends. Or kill a student because they had some disturbing dreams. Luke couldn't even defeat Vader without tapping into the anger that PT Yoda condemned.

    Anikan helps wreck the old Jedi order when they are in power, and then does the same to the Sith when its their turn. Its debatable what exact endpoint that leaves the balance of the force in, but its hard to ignore those actions in light of the prophecy about him.

  • DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    The Jedi idea of balance from the PT seems to be an elimination of dark side force influence.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    I don't even know what is 100% canon anymore, but I know that the movies never really discuss Sith much, just set them up as bad guys. They use it synonymously with Dark Side users, there's zero point in splitting that particular hair in regards to the movies. Literally, there's just no reason to do it, just like there's no point in arguing Jedi aren't the only Light Side users; the only time we hear Jedi or Sith is in referring to Light or Dark users and, since we don't see any other kind of Force user in the setting, that's the setup for Light and Dark.

    Thanks that’s what I was getting at

    This is the context I have- R1 is the only non-mainline SW media I’ve ever consumed, so from that perspective, looking back on Anakin being prophesied to restore balance to the force is a real head scratcher- there are no active dark side users at this time per what the movie scripts alone give us

    What exactly is balanced about a bazillion jedi vs. two sith?

    In the end Anikan succeeded by wiping most stronger force users out.

    However, the bulk of the wiping out was done by a massive clone army doing a massive surprise ambush against their Jedi generals with enormous overwhelming firepower and numbers on their side.

    Numbers-wise, Anaking probably took out more kids than Jedi.

    Elvenshae
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Okay, this is getting silly.
    Is there some kind of meme that Anakin's name has to be misspelled in a different way in every post?

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    ...why would anybody intentionally be misspelling Hanakin?

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    I’m trying to work up the courage to take another watch of TPM...been 21 years since my last viewing...

  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Why do you people do this to yourselves?

    Elvenshaeshryke
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    I just need a better understanding of young Annie’s journey

  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    I just need a better understanding of young Annie’s journey

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    I’m trying to work up the courage to take another watch of TPM...been 21 years since my last viewing...

    I've just been watching the Auralnauts saga myself. Anakon's journey from wasteland slave to Lasermoon management is so much more believable and interesting.

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  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    Docshifty wrote: »
    The Jedi idea of balance from the PT seems to be an elimination of dark side force influence.

    I think I remember this being Lucas' stated idea of it as well.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Docshifty wrote: »
    The Jedi idea of balance from the PT seems to be an elimination of dark side force influence.

    I think I remember this being Lucas' stated idea of it as well.

    So many bad ideas

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    If the actual damn prophecy would have been revealed at some point in the prequels, then maybe we wouldn't have these issues.

    Instead, everyone gets to the end of ROTS, sees 2 Jedi alive and 2 Sith alive, and goes "huh, that's balance." Gah.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited March 25
    If the actual damn prophecy would have been revealed at some point in the prequels, then maybe we wouldn't have these issues.

    Instead, everyone gets to the end of ROTS, sees 2 Jedi alive and 2 Sith alive, and goes "huh, that's balance." Gah.

    Kanan, Ahsoka, Broom Kid’s grandmother...Maul

    Although I guess this argument is old and we need to accept the post hoc reasons the fans came up with cause the actual people writing the movies don’t have the skill or respect for it

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  • VoodooVVoodooV Registered User regular
    Why did there have to be a prophecy...at all? It added nothing to the story. If there was some back story to the prophecy (not counting any EU or comic sources) that might have been cool, but again, Lucas and the ST for that matter continues to tell, but not show.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Neither Anakin nor Vader were even badass. Anakin just had a limb or 3 severed every fucking time he got in a fight and Vader died after getting his mechanical hand chopped off.

  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Everyone stop

    Take a deep breath

    Watch Henchman 21 and 24 take aim



    There's plenty of good in this universe

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Why can't you include book or comic sources as evidence of something being established in-universe? I don't think one gets to pick and choose what is and isn't canon. There are no tiers of canon anymore. Its canon or it's not.

    You should not be able pick and choose your acceptable sources based on whether or not you've seen it. Or if you think books are not a legit source of information, or whatever. The holders of the IP says a source is canon, then one should accept the information it gives you as true. Even if it is from a comic book you've never read.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Why can't you include book or comic sources as evidence of something being established in-universe? I don't think one gets to pick and choose what is and isn't canon. There are no tiers of canon anymore. Its canon or it's not.

    You should not be able pick and choose your acceptable sources based on whether or not you've seen it. Or if you think books are not a legit source of information, or whatever. The holders of the IP says a source is canon, then one should accept the information it gives you as true. Even if it is from a comic book you've never read.

    Because you can't expect tie-in material to fill in the blanks for you. If you are watching a Star Wars movie, the movie (and the ones that came before it) should be providing the necessary context for what is going on. Like shit, the MCU did a franchise with like 20+ films and managed not to fuck that part up.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited March 26
    Disney has outright said that the only for-sure canon things are the films, some of the series, and I think some of the comics. Until the material from those gets put in an official film, show, or comic, it's no longer canon.

    It's not something the Great Nerd Council decided on, it's just... fact. Disney said what was canon, anything else can potentially be canon but is unrelated until it's actually made canon. So almost everything about Thrawn from the books is no longer canon, but Thrawn, having been in Rebels, is himself definitely canon at this point.

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Why can't you include book or comic sources as evidence of something being established in-universe?

    I can, because I read more of that than I should.

    But for the general, move-going audience, it might as well not exist.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    A piece of media should stand on its own.

    A show like The Rebels is great. The Mandalorian is also great. That they tie in to each other should be a bonus to those who watch both, not a necessity for someone who only watches one.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Why can't you include book or comic sources as evidence of something being established in-universe? I don't think one gets to pick and choose what is and isn't canon. There are no tiers of canon anymore. Its canon or it's not.

    You should not be able pick and choose your acceptable sources based on whether or not you've seen it. Or if you think books are not a legit source of information, or whatever. The holders of the IP says a source is canon, then one should accept the information it gives you as true. Even if it is from a comic book you've never read.

    I’m all for more backstory and will catch up on the extended stuff eventually

    I still think it’s fair to point how how stupidly the movies treat the canon specifically contained within them that’s non-sensical or contradictory from movie to movie, even if someone who loves the series more has crafted a plausible comic/tv/book story to explain away the suck caused by lack of skill or care from the movie folks.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited March 26
    Ah, we're talking about the shitty, shitty tendency of the ST to overlook enormous plot issues and then using books to "solve" the issues after the fact, not issues of canon.

    Yeah, if a movie needs outside material to stand any level of scrutiny, it's a shit movie. Nobody needed to read the LotR trilogy before seeing the movies for those movies to make sense, but they would've picked up on some extra things. That's because those were good movies. Same with the OT; we don't need a pile of auxiliary material for the films to be coherent, because those films already lay out what you need to know.

    Ninja Snarl P on
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