[Star Wars] Yay Jar Jar!

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    TFA sets up Kylo Ren: School Shooter and Toxic Man-Child. It's all right there from the getgo.

    And Kylo Ren is easily one of the most interesting thing the ST does and fits well.

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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Kylo Ren: School Shooter
    jesus dude

    Is shryke wrong? I find it to be mostly accurate.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Kylo Ren: School Shooter
    jesus dude

    Is shryke wrong? I find it to be mostly accurate.

    I ain't even the first person to call him that on this forum. I saw it here first actually but there's like articles and the like elsewhere calling him the same thing.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited September 17
    Kylo Ren is absolutely a school shooter and also Nazi.

    In fact, my theory is that the ST hinges on whether you can care about him at all.

    If the ST actually did anything with it, I might care, and it might be interesting, but it expects me to do basically all the lifting.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    shryke wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

    In what way is that the patriarchy?

    Do I need to pull out the family tree? Luke couldn't possibly be more patriarchy, he's the grandson of the Imperial patriarch. But Broom Kid isn't playing with a Rey action figure, it's Luke. At best, it set up some Hidden Figures type scenario where Luke is the draw, Rey does the work. Yuck.

    But I've consistently said that Luke ends the movie as a horrible, credit stealing villain, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If a man finally mopping up the milk he spilled years ago is a galactic hero, and the woman that risks her life is in his shadow, we aren't talking about toppling the patriarchy.

    “The patriarchy” is not a specific lineage of people that rule the world.

    Luke’s dad was a shitty person who Luke didn’t even know until he was 20. “People with abusive absentee dads” are not the patriarchy. They’re victims of it.

    That being said. My comment on the patriarchy was a bit tongue in cheek, because the specifics of the Jedi order are very Star Wars and don’t translate perfectly. There is no concept of a patriarchy in Star Wars to critique and so the Jedi Order and it’s associated structures are the clear stand in mainly because we cannot view media through a lens we do not possess. But damn if it does not fit pretty well just looking at the OT and PT through a modern lens. The Jedi keep producing Sith Lords(dooku then Anakin!) and no one is talking about why their teachings seem to fail spectacularly.

    We can recontextualize this to fit a modern understanding of how systems work and update our media to fit with the times. And while it’s true that there is definitely gender politics in the movie this is partly became of our lenses; the patriarchy is a non-gendered issue. It the structure that defines how people are to act in their roles in society... kind of like what the Jedi have been doing.. the patriarchy is gendered in our world because our world is gendered. But it need not be on those lines in any other world.

    Kylo Ren, school shooter and toxic man-child is as much a victim of the patriarchy as anyone else. The Patriarchy told him to kill his dad because people you can express love with and towards make you weak...and he did it.

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    non-gendered patriarchy is kind of an oxymoron, aren't you just describing what has traditionally been called "The System"?

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    non-gendered patriarchy is kind of an oxymoron, aren't you just describing what has traditionally been called "The System"?

    So... yes and no. The patriarchy and not “a patriarchy” generally refers to how gender norms shape our society. But this is not a gendered issue. The patriarchy informs boys how to act just as much as it informs girls how to act. You are not exempt from the patriarchy because you’re male. “The system” generally does not refer to behavioral norms and pressures but rather institutional control and structures. The police are “the system” because they will literally beat you up if you step out of line.

    The ideals of how we are to act in society are informed by gender and the expectation of that gender but there is no reason that those ideals and pressures need be based on gender and they’re not prevented from being bad simply because they are not. And in Star Wars, aside from like, the stuff that seeps in from our universe. That is probably the case.

    Going back to my prior posts it’s really easy to apply this to Jedi. They’re trained specifically from a young age to be certain kinds of people. And then a few of them inevitably become rage monsters; it’s so strange how this happens, they seemed like nice kids.

    So when I referred to the patriarchy it was not a 1 to 1 construction even if there are clear parallels between how the Jedi keep teaching young people to be knights and some of them keep turning into rage monsters and how our society keeps teaching boys to be protective and strong and defensive and some of them keep shooting up schools.

    Society was not telling Ben he had to be a Jedi and follow those rules and be that person because he was a dude. But it was still telling him those things. And the setup wasn’t Rey actually destroying the patriarchy it was Rey synthesizing the Jedi into more a emotionally healthy place.

    But the analogue in our universe was clearly destroying the patriarchy hence I used destroying the patriarchy. Because film is a place where we can discuss our own society and will do so even if we are not aware that we are doing it. As an example it was probably not a mistake that Leia wasn’t sexualized in the first two movies but was in the first one that was written and produced in Reagan’s America as our Puritans were exercising more political and social power

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    ok, that makes sense, I see what you mean.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I don't think "Do what Luke did, but don't fuck up this time" is a particularly great setup, but it's better than anything else in the trilogy, I guess.

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  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    I'm just going to drop this on the floor and back away: at the end of TLJ, my impression of the third movie's likely plot was "the Resistance has been devastated and the First Order, now ruled under Kylo Ren's tyrannical fist, marauds across the Galaxy bringing everything it casts its shadow over to ruin. But a new order of Jedi, led by Rey, is rising to set things right. The two sides hurtle toward a final confrontation." In three acts, we establish that the First Order has lost interest in ruling and now seeks merely to destroy, follow Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose in their recruitment efforts as new force-sensitives answer the call, and finally have a climactic battle aboard the refurbished Supremacy where Rey and Kylo hash out their philosophical differences. My reflex is that Kylo gets one last chance at repentance and rejects it. That's his major character flaw throughout the first two films.

    EDIT: This is in response to the idea that TLJ left the plot with nowhere to go.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Kupi wrote: »
    I'm just going to drop this on the floor and back away: at the end of TLJ, my impression of the third movie's likely plot was "the Resistance has been devastated and the First Order, now ruled under Kylo Ren's tyrannical fist, marauds across the Galaxy bringing everything it casts its shadow over to ruin. But a new order of Jedi, led by Rey, is rising to set things right. The two sides hurtle toward a final confrontation." In three acts, we establish that the First Order has lost interest in ruling and now seeks merely to destroy, follow Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose in their recruitment efforts as new force-sensitives answer the call, and finally have a climactic battle aboard the refurbished Supremacy where Rey and Kylo hash out their philosophical differences. My reflex is that Kylo gets one last chance at repentance and rejects it. That's his major character flaw throughout the first two films.

    EDIT: This is in response to the idea that TLJ left the plot with nowhere to go.

    I agree in general except that I think TLJ also sets up the Resistance to be recruiting a ton of people around the galaxy to form a new Rebellion to challenge the First Order.

    So sort of a ROTJ style double-front final confrontation. Rey+ vs Kylo Ren and Poe leading a normie assault vs the forces of the First Order. Slot in Finn on whichever side you want. Or both!

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Yes. And JJ shit the bed entirely because he's bad at his job and apparently jealous that someone played with his toys.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    It does make me wonder if maybe half the reason they brought Palpatine back is because they were so desperate to do a Kylo Ren redemption arc and that means you need another villain to actually fight at the end. And, since you are JJ, why not bring back the exact same one that was used last time this kind of thing happened.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

    In what way is that the patriarchy?

    Do I need to pull out the family tree? Luke couldn't possibly be more patriarchy, he's the grandson of the Imperial patriarch. But Broom Kid isn't playing with a Rey action figure, it's Luke. At best, it set up some Hidden Figures type scenario where Luke is the draw, Rey does the work. Yuck.

    But I've consistently said that Luke ends the movie as a horrible, credit stealing villain, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If a man finally mopping up the milk he spilled years ago is a galactic hero, and the woman that risks her life is in his shadow, we aren't talking about toppling the patriarchy.

    TLJ is edited to try and make gender politics issues into Star Wars issues and it fits about as well early episodes of Stargate SG-1 which wanted to do this.

    The "gender politics" in TLJ was Admiral Holdo being a woman in a dress.

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    There's also the gender politics of suave, swashbuckling, charming men no longer being given a pass if they screw up, regardless of their being suave, swashbuckling, charming men.

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler Registered User regular
    edited September 17
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    I'm not opposed to any and all criticism of TLJ, but "gender politics" is a loaded phrase when it comes to talking about pop culture, especially when it's the only thing really being asserted.

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  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It does make me wonder if maybe half the reason they brought Palpatine back is because they were so desperate to do a Kylo Ren redemption arc and that means you need another villain to actually fight at the end. And, since you are JJ, why not bring back the exact same one that was used last time this kind of thing happened.

    There's a definite problem with "redemption" arcs that mostly involve the villain finding someone else even more evil to blame their actions on. And then often immediately dying, so they don't have to actually change their behavior or become a better person in any way.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    jothki wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It does make me wonder if maybe half the reason they brought Palpatine back is because they were so desperate to do a Kylo Ren redemption arc and that means you need another villain to actually fight at the end. And, since you are JJ, why not bring back the exact same one that was used last time this kind of thing happened.

    There's a definite problem with "redemption" arcs that mostly involve the villain finding someone else even more evil to blame their actions on. And then often immediately dying, so they don't have to actually change their behavior or become a better person in any way.

    Also, not understanding that Vader's redemption wasn't about Vader, but about Luke. He is still guilty of all the evil he did, but Luke won in the end.

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  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    At the risk of reigniting a massive debate, Rey is totally a JJ Abrams protagonist.

  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    This thought has cropped up several times, often when discussing "Kylo Ren was acting like a neo-nazi school shooter", and I'm confused where it comes from. When watching TLJ, I was convinced they were still doing a Kylo redemption arc. I thought it was dumb -- he was doing some abhorrent stuff and his relationship with Rey was very much....not positive. But watching the movie it's what I thought would happen.

    I've seen lots of people say that TLJ was written for Kylo not to be redeemed, coming from people who like and people who don't like TLJ. How did this become such a popular and often discussed opinion? Before TROS came out, I remember seeing this quote posted on the forum.

    In it, Rian Johnson says that he believes Kylo is worthy of redemption. As he's not writing the script for TROS, he explains he doesn't know what will happen, ultimately. But the writer and director of TLJ specifically says:

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Doesn't that make it kind of a settled issue? I'm totally fine with head-canon to get rid of some of the rough edges of the sequel trilogy, but it feels like this thing is settled fact. But I keep seeing it brought up, and often as a part of "That wacky JJ Abrams of course wanted to undo everything Rian Johnson did in TLJ". It just sounds like, whatever any of us has read into TLJ, the writer of the film is telling us that he wrote the film thinking Kylo could be redeemed, and thinking it would be a logical follow up to his film. Am I missing something?

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited September 17
    I dunno if it was posted here yet, but I got a big giggle outta this one.
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    Okay, back to lurking.

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  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    This thought has cropped up several times, often when discussing "Kylo Ren was acting like a neo-nazi school shooter", and I'm confused where it comes from. When watching TLJ, I was convinced they were still doing a Kylo redemption arc. I thought it was dumb -- he was doing some abhorrent stuff and his relationship with Rey was very much....not positive. But watching the movie it's what I thought would happen.

    I've seen lots of people say that TLJ was written for Kylo not to be redeemed, coming from people who like and people who don't like TLJ. How did this become such a popular and often discussed opinion? Before TROS came out, I remember seeing this quote posted on the forum.

    In it, Rian Johnson says that he believes Kylo is worthy of redemption. As he's not writing the script for TROS, he explains he doesn't know what will happen, ultimately. But the writer and director of TLJ specifically says:

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Doesn't that make it kind of a settled issue? I'm totally fine with head-canon to get rid of some of the rough edges of the sequel trilogy, but it feels like this thing is settled fact. But I keep seeing it brought up, and often as a part of "That wacky JJ Abrams of course wanted to undo everything Rian Johnson did in TLJ". It just sounds like, whatever any of us has read into TLJ, the writer of the film is telling us that he wrote the film thinking Kylo could be redeemed, and thinking it would be a logical follow up to his film. Am I missing something?

    TLJ didn't cut out Kylo from being redeemed, it just made it so that he'd have to actually be redeemed rather than just getting to turn on Snoke and then immediately die. Bringing back Palpatine so that Kylo would continue to have an excuse for not taking agency for his actions was the backpedaling.

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to any and all criticism of TLJ, but "gender politics" is a loaded phrase when it comes to talking about pop culture, especially when it's the only thing really being asserted.
    You and I have discussed TLJ at length over voice, and while we've never been able to come to a common ground on certain points of contention it's still a discussion among friends. I don't think the same sort of discussion-among-friends is possible via a message board where equating space fantasy characters to real life atrocities is met with a wave of "Agrees".

    Here, there is no criticism of TLJ that pro-TLJ folk accept; it's just another front on the "TLJ is the most Star Wars movie!" forever war.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    This thought has cropped up several times, often when discussing "Kylo Ren was acting like a neo-nazi school shooter", and I'm confused where it comes from. When watching TLJ, I was convinced they were still doing a Kylo redemption arc. I thought it was dumb -- he was doing some abhorrent stuff and his relationship with Rey was very much....not positive. But watching the movie it's what I thought would happen.

    I've seen lots of people say that TLJ was written for Kylo not to be redeemed, coming from people who like and people who don't like TLJ. How did this become such a popular and often discussed opinion? Before TROS came out, I remember seeing this quote posted on the forum.

    In it, Rian Johnson says that he believes Kylo is worthy of redemption. As he's not writing the script for TROS, he explains he doesn't know what will happen, ultimately. But the writer and director of TLJ specifically says:

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Doesn't that make it kind of a settled issue? I'm totally fine with head-canon to get rid of some of the rough edges of the sequel trilogy, but it feels like this thing is settled fact. But I keep seeing it brought up, and often as a part of "That wacky JJ Abrams of course wanted to undo everything Rian Johnson did in TLJ". It just sounds like, whatever any of us has read into TLJ, the writer of the film is telling us that he wrote the film thinking Kylo could be redeemed, and thinking it would be a logical follow up to his film. Am I missing something?

    Johnson is saying it could happen. Not that he thinks it should or should not. And it's not like he was writing the next film at the time, which he clarifies in the interview.

    I think the story up to the point in TLJ says it shouldn't happened. TLJ pretty firmly played that card already and said "Nope". Going back to that well feels silly which is why you see a lot of people reacting to it.

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  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    I could cut TROS some slack if only they had Rey say "Just Rey" instead of "Rey Skywalker" at the end. It was like, in case you forgot this movie is completely stupid, lets totally undermine the main character's personal story arc for the entire trilogy real quick before the credits roll.

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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    shryke wrote: »
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    This thought has cropped up several times, often when discussing "Kylo Ren was acting like a neo-nazi school shooter", and I'm confused where it comes from. When watching TLJ, I was convinced they were still doing a Kylo redemption arc. I thought it was dumb -- he was doing some abhorrent stuff and his relationship with Rey was very much....not positive. But watching the movie it's what I thought would happen.

    I've seen lots of people say that TLJ was written for Kylo not to be redeemed, coming from people who like and people who don't like TLJ. How did this become such a popular and often discussed opinion? Before TROS came out, I remember seeing this quote posted on the forum.

    In it, Rian Johnson says that he believes Kylo is worthy of redemption. As he's not writing the script for TROS, he explains he doesn't know what will happen, ultimately. But the writer and director of TLJ specifically says:

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Doesn't that make it kind of a settled issue? I'm totally fine with head-canon to get rid of some of the rough edges of the sequel trilogy, but it feels like this thing is settled fact. But I keep seeing it brought up, and often as a part of "That wacky JJ Abrams of course wanted to undo everything Rian Johnson did in TLJ". It just sounds like, whatever any of us has read into TLJ, the writer of the film is telling us that he wrote the film thinking Kylo could be redeemed, and thinking it would be a logical follow up to his film. Am I missing something?

    Johnson is saying it could happen. Not that he thinks it should or should not. And it's not like he was writing the next film at the time, which he clarifies in the interview.

    I think the story up to the point in TLJ says it shouldn't happened. TLJ pretty firmly played that card already and said "Nope". Going back to that well feels silly which is why you see a lot of people reacting to it.

    So this is slightly more into speculation, but his quote doesn't sound like that to me. He's responding to lots of people thinking Kylo should not be redeemed -- based on watching TLJ -- two weeks after the film came out. His responds suggests incredulity --

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Ya know, "Why would you think that from seeing my film? It's a Star Wars film and in my opinion the stuff Kylo did isn't that bad relative to other figures that have been redeemed in Star Wars"

    It feels like you have to remove the fact that the man saying this is the writer and director of The Last Jedi to then say "the story up to the point in TLJ says it shouldn't happen". Like he's saying that his story, which is "The story up to the point [of the end of TLJ]" leaves plenty of room for Kylo to be redeemed. I'm defining "plenty of room" as "more than Vader (per Rian's quote)", which in Star Wars is a lot!

    Fiatil on
    Steam:Fiatil
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to any and all criticism of TLJ, but "gender politics" is a loaded phrase when it comes to talking about pop culture, especially when it's the only thing really being asserted.
    You and I have discussed TLJ at length over voice, and while we've never been able to come to a common ground on certain points of contention it's still a discussion among friends. I don't think the same sort of discussion-among-friends is possible via a message board where equating space fantasy characters to real life atrocities is met with a wave of "Agrees".

    Here, there is no criticism of TLJ that pro-TLJ folk accept; it's just another front on the "TLJ is the most Star Wars movie!" forever war.

    There's plenty of valid points to criticize TLJ on. It needed way better scene-level editing, there were way too many things that just looked kind of dumb at a glance even if they're justifiable with a bit of thought. There was also a bunch of jarringly injected humor that was completely unnecessary.

    mRahmaniOrcaQuidDarkPrimusShadowenCaedwyrHappy Little Machine
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited September 17
    jdarksun wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to any and all criticism of TLJ, but "gender politics" is a loaded phrase when it comes to talking about pop culture, especially when it's the only thing really being asserted.
    You and I have discussed TLJ at length over voice, and while we've never been able to come to a common ground on certain points of contention it's still a discussion among friends. I don't think the same sort of discussion-among-friends is possible via a message board where equating space fantasy characters to real life atrocities is met with a wave of "Agrees".

    Here, there is no criticism of TLJ that pro-TLJ folk accept; it's just another front on the "TLJ is the most Star Wars movie!" forever war.

    Do you not see how the First Order uses Nazi imagery and language? It's a fascist organization in ways that the Empire is not. Using fiction as a metaphor and reflection for reality is basically the point of fiction.

    Kylo Ren uses that language, action, and emotion, just writ large to a grandiose scale.

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
    Orca
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    This thought has cropped up several times, often when discussing "Kylo Ren was acting like a neo-nazi school shooter", and I'm confused where it comes from. When watching TLJ, I was convinced they were still doing a Kylo redemption arc. I thought it was dumb -- he was doing some abhorrent stuff and his relationship with Rey was very much....not positive. But watching the movie it's what I thought would happen.

    I've seen lots of people say that TLJ was written for Kylo not to be redeemed, coming from people who like and people who don't like TLJ. How did this become such a popular and often discussed opinion? Before TROS came out, I remember seeing this quote posted on the forum.

    In it, Rian Johnson says that he believes Kylo is worthy of redemption. As he's not writing the script for TROS, he explains he doesn't know what will happen, ultimately. But the writer and director of TLJ specifically says:

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Doesn't that make it kind of a settled issue? I'm totally fine with head-canon to get rid of some of the rough edges of the sequel trilogy, but it feels like this thing is settled fact. But I keep seeing it brought up, and often as a part of "That wacky JJ Abrams of course wanted to undo everything Rian Johnson did in TLJ". It just sounds like, whatever any of us has read into TLJ, the writer of the film is telling us that he wrote the film thinking Kylo could be redeemed, and thinking it would be a logical follow up to his film. Am I missing something?

    Johnson is saying it could happen. Not that he thinks it should or should not. And it's not like he was writing the next film at the time, which he clarifies in the interview.

    I think the story up to the point in TLJ says it shouldn't happened. TLJ pretty firmly played that card already and said "Nope". Going back to that well feels silly which is why you see a lot of people reacting to it.

    So this is slightly more into speculation, but his quote doesn't sound like that to me. He's responding to lots of people thinking Kylo should not be redeemed -- based on watching TLJ -- two weeks after the film came out. His responds suggests incredulity --

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Ya know, "Why would you think that from seeing my film? It's a Star Wars film and in my opinion the stuff Kylo did isn't that bad relative to other figures that have been redeemed in Star Wars"

    It feels like you have to remove the fact that the man saying this is the writer and director of The Last Jedi to then say "the story up to the point in TLJ says it shouldn't happen". Like he's saying that his story, which is "The story up to the point [of the end of TLJ]" leaves plenty of room for Kylo to be redeemed. I'm defining "plenty of room" as "more than Vader (per Rian's quote)", which in Star Wars is a lot!

    You should click through to the IGN page your link is taking the quote from. Even that's not a direct transcript, but it's a lot clearer:
    It can be argued Ben Solo might not have become Kylo Ren had he not witnessed his own uncle/mentor considering murdering him in his sleep. But if this moment of weakness on Luke's part is what propelled Ben's downfall then doesn't that suggest this damage could be undone? Rey may have seen potential for Kylo's redemption but Johnson believes that, for Luke at least, that proverbial ship has sailed: "He says, 'I can’t save him.' 'I can’t save him.' I don’t think Luke can save him."

    But when pressed whether he himself thinks Kylo Ren is potentially redeemable, Johnson shrugged and laughed, "Yeah." After all, the last Skywalker who fell to the Dark Side was saved in the end.

    "Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

    The question was "Is Kylo Ren potentially redeemable, given all the bad stuff he's done?" and Johnson's reply is "Yeah, sure it's possible. Vader did worse shit and was redeemable." (And also basically covering his ass saying he's got nothing to do with what happens next.)

    This is a separate question from whether or not Kylo Ren should be redeemed. Does that make a good script? Is that where the story should go? etc, etc.

    shryke on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

    In what way is that the patriarchy?

    Do I need to pull out the family tree? Luke couldn't possibly be more patriarchy, he's the grandson of the Imperial patriarch. But Broom Kid isn't playing with a Rey action figure, it's Luke. At best, it set up some Hidden Figures type scenario where Luke is the draw, Rey does the work. Yuck.

    But I've consistently said that Luke ends the movie as a horrible, credit stealing villain, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If a man finally mopping up the milk he spilled years ago is a galactic hero, and the woman that risks her life is in his shadow, we aren't talking about toppling the patriarchy.

    TLJ is edited to try and make gender politics issues into Star Wars issues and it fits about as well early episodes of Stargate SG-1 which wanted to do this.

    The "gender politics" in TLJ was Admiral Holdo being a woman in a dress.

    Luke Skywalker literally walks out a vagina to be reborn. Holdo is actually a point of gender politics, intentionally even. (Part of her design and dress was to produce a conflicting perception in the mind of watchers who had a decidedly patriarchal worldview). Had Holdo been a gruff yelling man no one would have batted an eye at seeing poe as in the wrong.

    TLJ really is a movie where gender themes are exceedingly present. It’s just not diegetic.

    wbBv3fj.png
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

    In what way is that the patriarchy?

    Do I need to pull out the family tree? Luke couldn't possibly be more patriarchy, he's the grandson of the Imperial patriarch. But Broom Kid isn't playing with a Rey action figure, it's Luke. At best, it set up some Hidden Figures type scenario where Luke is the draw, Rey does the work. Yuck.

    But I've consistently said that Luke ends the movie as a horrible, credit stealing villain, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If a man finally mopping up the milk he spilled years ago is a galactic hero, and the woman that risks her life is in his shadow, we aren't talking about toppling the patriarchy.

    TLJ is edited to try and make gender politics issues into Star Wars issues and it fits about as well early episodes of Stargate SG-1 which wanted to do this.

    The "gender politics" in TLJ was Admiral Holdo being a woman in a dress.

    Luke Skywalker literally walks out a vagina to be reborn. Holdo is actually a point of gender politics, intentionally even. (Part of her design and dress was to produce a conflicting perception in the mind of watchers who had a decidedly patriarchal worldview). Had Holdo been a gruff yelling man no one would have batted an eye at seeing poe as in the wrong.

    TLJ really is a movie where gender themes are exceedingly present. It’s just not diegetic.

    If you go down the list of major characters in the film, basically all the ones who were right in the end and taught the other characters something useful are women. Or Yoda.

    GiantGeek2020ShadowenElvenshae
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Re: RJ commenting on future movies 2 weeks after release that had seen the Internet blow up about the movie and Disney is about to do a big reverse on.

    Don’t put too much stock in someone saying things. The PR game is real

    wbBv3fj.png
    electricitylikesme
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    If Luke Skywalker had actually literally done that, I probably would have liked it more.

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Pretty sure it’s been said before, but what did Kylo do that was evil in TROS?

    I seriously entertained the thought that he was the mole.

    Matev
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    This thought has cropped up several times, often when discussing "Kylo Ren was acting like a neo-nazi school shooter", and I'm confused where it comes from. When watching TLJ, I was convinced they were still doing a Kylo redemption arc. I thought it was dumb -- he was doing some abhorrent stuff and his relationship with Rey was very much....not positive. But watching the movie it's what I thought would happen.

    I've seen lots of people say that TLJ was written for Kylo not to be redeemed, coming from people who like and people who don't like TLJ. How did this become such a popular and often discussed opinion? Before TROS came out, I remember seeing this quote posted on the forum.

    In it, Rian Johnson says that he believes Kylo is worthy of redemption. As he's not writing the script for TROS, he explains he doesn't know what will happen, ultimately. But the writer and director of TLJ specifically says:

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Doesn't that make it kind of a settled issue? I'm totally fine with head-canon to get rid of some of the rough edges of the sequel trilogy, but it feels like this thing is settled fact. But I keep seeing it brought up, and often as a part of "That wacky JJ Abrams of course wanted to undo everything Rian Johnson did in TLJ". It just sounds like, whatever any of us has read into TLJ, the writer of the film is telling us that he wrote the film thinking Kylo could be redeemed, and thinking it would be a logical follow up to his film. Am I missing something?

    Well, it felt like the moment passed when Rey asked him not to go this way. It set up a redemption, then dashed it. It's hard to square what Rian tried to depict and what he put to film. We're not always clear when we communicate and I don't feel like he succeeded if that was his intent for Kylo Ren.

    electricitylikesmeMatev
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    This thought has cropped up several times, often when discussing "Kylo Ren was acting like a neo-nazi school shooter", and I'm confused where it comes from. When watching TLJ, I was convinced they were still doing a Kylo redemption arc. I thought it was dumb -- he was doing some abhorrent stuff and his relationship with Rey was very much....not positive. But watching the movie it's what I thought would happen.

    I've seen lots of people say that TLJ was written for Kylo not to be redeemed, coming from people who like and people who don't like TLJ. How did this become such a popular and often discussed opinion? Before TROS came out, I remember seeing this quote posted on the forum.

    In it, Rian Johnson says that he believes Kylo is worthy of redemption. As he's not writing the script for TROS, he explains he doesn't know what will happen, ultimately. But the writer and director of TLJ specifically says:

    “Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed.”

    Doesn't that make it kind of a settled issue? I'm totally fine with head-canon to get rid of some of the rough edges of the sequel trilogy, but it feels like this thing is settled fact. But I keep seeing it brought up, and often as a part of "That wacky JJ Abrams of course wanted to undo everything Rian Johnson did in TLJ". It just sounds like, whatever any of us has read into TLJ, the writer of the film is telling us that he wrote the film thinking Kylo could be redeemed, and thinking it would be a logical follow up to his film. Am I missing something?

    Well, it felt like the moment passed when Rey asked him not to go this way. It set up a redemption, then dashed it. It's hard to square what Rian tried to depict and what he put to film. We're not always clear when we communicate and I don't feel like he succeeded if that was his intent for Kylo Ren.

    I suspect it's less "this is what I intended to say in the film" and more "I'm not going to shit the bed here by saying something that contradicts what the people making Ep9 might be doing".

    I think he's also not lying or anything. Like, I think Kylo Ren has not necessarily done anything that makes him impossible to redeem. But it's very much phrased to also avoid causing a PR mess.

    shryke on
    FencingsaxGiantGeek2020ShadowenNightslyrElvenshae
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to any and all criticism of TLJ, but "gender politics" is a loaded phrase when it comes to talking about pop culture, especially when it's the only thing really being asserted.
    You and I have discussed TLJ at length over voice, and while we've never been able to come to a common ground on certain points of contention it's still a discussion among friends. I don't think the same sort of discussion-among-friends is possible via a message board where equating space fantasy characters to real life atrocities is met with a wave of "Agrees".

    Here, there is no criticism of TLJ that pro-TLJ folk accept; it's just another front on the "TLJ is the most Star Wars movie!" forever war.

    Sure but we both agree that the idea that "gender politics" or "forced diversity" is an imaginary issue.

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    jdarksun wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to any and all criticism of TLJ, but "gender politics" is a loaded phrase when it comes to talking about pop culture, especially when it's the only thing really being asserted.
    You and I have discussed TLJ at length over voice, and while we've never been able to come to a common ground on certain points of contention it's still a discussion among friends. I don't think the same sort of discussion-among-friends is possible via a message board where equating space fantasy characters to real life atrocities is met with a wave of "Agrees".

    Here, there is no criticism of TLJ that pro-TLJ folk accept; it's just another front on the "TLJ is the most Star Wars movie!" forever war.

    Do you not see how the First Order uses Nazi imagery and language? It's a fascist organization in ways that the Empire is not. Using fiction as a metaphor and reflection for reality is basically the point of fiction.

    Kylo Ren uses that language, action, and emotion, just writ large to a grandiose scale.

    Lucas literally calls the OT empire Nazis at times. FFS their main soldier is a Stormtrooper. The ST just made that blindingly obvious for a new generation.

    Although it seems Nixon and the Vietnam war were larger inspirations for Lucas and co. at the time.

    Commander Zoomautono-wally, erotibot300ShadowenOrcaMatevNobeardAegeriLord_Asmodeus
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