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[Star Wars] so you didn't send the fish Jedi immediately because...?

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Posts

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    TLJ's resistance storyline is fundamentally flawed for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that Johnson was so apt to subvert tropes and deconstruct Star Wars that he never bothered to build a story past that. There's no real reason for Holdo to keep everyone in the dark, no real reason for Poe to go zero to mutiny in sixty seconds, except for Johnson to say "look kids, daring plans don't always work and sometimes you don't know best!"

    Subverting expectations is great for plot twists and sudden reversals, but that's enough to carry a story. The best deconstructions work because of what they do after the deconstructing. Once Johnson's finished blowing up Star Wars tropes, the movie ends. There's nothing else. When you build an entire story on novelty and nothing else, the audience is less likely to marvel at your genius than wonder why they bothered.

    The other big problem is awful pacing. It's a movie-length chase scene that's supposed to be hectic enough to justify constant panic yet slow enough that we've got time for two entire side adventures before the end. Why they didn't just have them reach the salt planet in Act 1 and just have the First Oder be on their way, I'll never know.

    This whole "it's all just subversion" narrative is just wrong though. There's a ton more going on in TLJ then just subverting expectations. Nor is that even the primary purpose.

    Like, as an obvious example, the resistance storyline is Poe's storyline and the point is to move Poe's character. From the beginning where he charges in even though Leia tells him the job is done and it's time to retreat to the point at the end where Finn wants to charge in to help Luke and Poe stops and says "No, there's a bigger plan at work here" and does something different and saves the final members of the Resistance. That's what that entire thread of the story is built around and the parts all work in service to that. Poe goes from Leia's most favoured dashing hotshot pilot to the leader of the Resistance.

    Holdo is a step along this arc. She affords Poe no special privileges or deference. Which you can tell he's not used to by the way he interacts with her. And ultimately he's wrong and Holdo is working directly off Leia's orders and Leia sets him straight when she regains consciousness. The point of things like how Holdo looks and acts is to emphasize this. We, the audience, naturally take Poe's side because he's the protagonist and acts like a standard action-first protagonist.

    But the point of this is not deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction, it's to further Poe's character arc across the film. To mould him into a character who can lead the Resistance.

    shryke on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    TLJ's resistance storyline is fundamentally flawed for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that Johnson was so apt to subvert tropes and deconstruct Star Wars that he never bothered to build a story past that. There's no real reason for Holdo to keep everyone in the dark, no real reason for Poe to go zero to mutiny in sixty seconds, except for Johnson to say "look kids, daring plans don't always work and sometimes you don't know best!"

    Subverting expectations is great for plot twists and sudden reversals, but that's enough to carry a story. The best deconstructions work because of what they do after the deconstructing. Once Johnson's finished blowing up Star Wars tropes, the movie ends. There's nothing else. When you build an entire story on novelty and nothing else, the audience is less likely to marvel at your genius than wonder why they bothered.

    The other big problem is awful pacing. It's a movie-length chase scene that's supposed to be hectic enough to justify constant panic yet slow enough that we've got time for two entire side adventures before the end. Why they didn't just have them reach the salt planet in Act 1 and just have the First Oder be on their way, I'll never know.

    The Holdo Maneuver wasn't an end of act 1 setpiece, probably.

  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    TLJ's resistance storyline is fundamentally flawed for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that Johnson was so apt to subvert tropes and deconstruct Star Wars that he never bothered to build a story past that. There's no real reason for Holdo to keep everyone in the dark, no real reason for Poe to go zero to mutiny in sixty seconds, except for Johnson to say "look kids, daring plans don't always work and sometimes you don't know best!"

    Subverting expectations is great for plot twists and sudden reversals, but that's enough to carry a story. The best deconstructions work because of what they do after the deconstructing. Once Johnson's finished blowing up Star Wars tropes, the movie ends. There's nothing else. When you build an entire story on novelty and nothing else, the audience is less likely to marvel at your genius than wonder why they bothered.

    The other big problem is awful pacing. It's a movie-length chase scene that's supposed to be hectic enough to justify constant panic yet slow enough that we've got time for two entire side adventures before the end. Why they didn't just have them reach the salt planet in Act 1 and just have the First Oder be on their way, I'll never know.

    This whole "it's all just subversion" narrative is just wrong though. There's a ton more going on in TLJ then just subverting expectations. Nor is that even the primary purpose.

    Like, as an obvious example, the resistance storyline is Poe's storyline and the point is to move Poe's character. From the beginning where he charges in even though Leia tells him the job is done and it's time to retreat to the point at the end where Finn wants to charge in to help Luke and Poe stops and says "No, there's a bigger plan at work here" and does something different and saves the final members of the Resistance. That's what that entire thread of the story is built around and the parts all work in service to that. Poe goes from Leia's most favoured dashing hotshot pilot to the leader of the Resistance.

    Holdo is a step along this arc. She affords Poe no special privileges or deference. Which you can tell he's not used to by the way he interacts with her. And ultimately he's wrong and Holdo is working directly off Leia's orders and Leia sets him straight when she regains consciousness. The point of things like how Holdo looks and acts is to emphasize this. We, the audience, naturally take Poe's side because he's the protagonist and acts like a standard action-first protagonist.

    But the point of this is not deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction, it's to further Poe's character arc across the film. To mould him into a character who can lead the Resistance.

    Poe disobeying Leia is the only reason that shitty chase was allowed to happen. And for disobeying orders (before the FO magically appear) he is demoted in rank.

    The whole 'get a guy to hack the thing' plan was garbage because there was no plan to implement. It failed precisely because the writer wanted them to fail to ensure that Holdo's plan (a plan so comforting to the crew Poe managed to convince some of them to enact the dumbest mutiny ever) was a good one. A plan that was, in fact, so good that when informed of it Poe immediately admitted it could work. It basically only failed because Poe didn't know the plan in the first place.

    Nearly everything in TLJ is for the convenience to push a narrative that they wanted at the end. An ending, by the way, that saw the utter decimation of the resistance to about a dozen people and a freighter?

    Where do you go from there? Apparently there are so many possibilities. I mean, if you're going to claim a movie that simply placed all the pieces precisely where they wanted them in spite of no real logical reason for them to be there as an excellent piece of filmmaking, then of course there are unlimited possibilities where you can go.

    The first mistake the ST made was to place itself withing the life/timeline of Luke/Leia/Han. They should have been long dead. The Empire and its remnant gone or nearly there. Want to create stories that don't conform to expectations, then create a new setting. The new characters are flat and useless. The old character are treated worse just to make the new ones look better. TLJ should have been reworked and turned into a side story. Not a keystone in a series of movies intended to continue a story that didn't need it.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    TLJ's resistance storyline is fundamentally flawed for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that Johnson was so apt to subvert tropes and deconstruct Star Wars that he never bothered to build a story past that. There's no real reason for Holdo to keep everyone in the dark, no real reason for Poe to go zero to mutiny in sixty seconds, except for Johnson to say "look kids, daring plans don't always work and sometimes you don't know best!"

    Subverting expectations is great for plot twists and sudden reversals, but that's enough to carry a story. The best deconstructions work because of what they do after the deconstructing. Once Johnson's finished blowing up Star Wars tropes, the movie ends. There's nothing else. When you build an entire story on novelty and nothing else, the audience is less likely to marvel at your genius than wonder why they bothered.

    The other big problem is awful pacing. It's a movie-length chase scene that's supposed to be hectic enough to justify constant panic yet slow enough that we've got time for two entire side adventures before the end. Why they didn't just have them reach the salt planet in Act 1 and just have the First Oder be on their way, I'll never know.

    This whole "it's all just subversion" narrative is just wrong though. There's a ton more going on in TLJ then just subverting expectations. Nor is that even the primary purpose.

    Like, as an obvious example, the resistance storyline is Poe's storyline and the point is to move Poe's character. From the beginning where he charges in even though Leia tells him the job is done and it's time to retreat to the point at the end where Finn wants to charge in to help Luke and Poe stops and says "No, there's a bigger plan at work here" and does something different and saves the final members of the Resistance. That's what that entire thread of the story is built around and the parts all work in service to that. Poe goes from Leia's most favoured dashing hotshot pilot to the leader of the Resistance.

    Holdo is a step along this arc. She affords Poe no special privileges or deference. Which you can tell he's not used to by the way he interacts with her. And ultimately he's wrong and Holdo is working directly off Leia's orders and Leia sets him straight when she regains consciousness. The point of things like how Holdo looks and acts is to emphasize this. We, the audience, naturally take Poe's side because he's the protagonist and acts like a standard action-first protagonist.

    But the point of this is not deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction, it's to further Poe's character arc across the film. To mould him into a character who can lead the Resistance.

    The point isn't that it's "just" subversion. It's that in many places subversion was clearly the theme where it wasn't necessary and detracted from the overall plot, characterization, and quality of the film.

    I also find it really interesting that people think that if Holdo was a male that nothing would change except all the critics would go away because their reactions are based on sexism.

    I'd argue that if Holdo were male, it would only make more glaring the fundamental issues with her character and how Poe in particular reacts to her.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    TLJ's resistance storyline is fundamentally flawed for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that Johnson was so apt to subvert tropes and deconstruct Star Wars that he never bothered to build a story past that. There's no real reason for Holdo to keep everyone in the dark, no real reason for Poe to go zero to mutiny in sixty seconds, except for Johnson to say "look kids, daring plans don't always work and sometimes you don't know best!"

    Subverting expectations is great for plot twists and sudden reversals, but that's enough to carry a story. The best deconstructions work because of what they do after the deconstructing. Once Johnson's finished blowing up Star Wars tropes, the movie ends. There's nothing else. When you build an entire story on novelty and nothing else, the audience is less likely to marvel at your genius than wonder why they bothered.

    The other big problem is awful pacing. It's a movie-length chase scene that's supposed to be hectic enough to justify constant panic yet slow enough that we've got time for two entire side adventures before the end. Why they didn't just have them reach the salt planet in Act 1 and just have the First Oder be on their way, I'll never know.

    This whole "it's all just subversion" narrative is just wrong though. There's a ton more going on in TLJ then just subverting expectations. Nor is that even the primary purpose.

    Like, as an obvious example, the resistance storyline is Poe's storyline and the point is to move Poe's character. From the beginning where he charges in even though Leia tells him the job is done and it's time to retreat to the point at the end where Finn wants to charge in to help Luke and Poe stops and says "No, there's a bigger plan at work here" and does something different and saves the final members of the Resistance. That's what that entire thread of the story is built around and the parts all work in service to that. Poe goes from Leia's most favoured dashing hotshot pilot to the leader of the Resistance.

    Holdo is a step along this arc. She affords Poe no special privileges or deference. Which you can tell he's not used to by the way he interacts with her. And ultimately he's wrong and Holdo is working directly off Leia's orders and Leia sets him straight when she regains consciousness. The point of things like how Holdo looks and acts is to emphasize this. We, the audience, naturally take Poe's side because he's the protagonist and acts like a standard action-first protagonist.

    But the point of this is not deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction, it's to further Poe's character arc across the film. To mould him into a character who can lead the Resistance.

    The point isn't that it's "just" subversion. It's that in many places subversion was clearly the theme where it wasn't necessary and detracted from the overall plot, characterization, and quality of the film.

    I also find it really interesting that people think that if Holdo was a male that nothing would change except all the critics would go away because their reactions are based on sexism.

    I'd argue that if Holdo were male, it would only make more glaring the fundamental issues with her character and how Poe in particular reacts to her.

    The entire point of what I'm describing above is that the theme isn't subversion. That's not what is going on there. Across the entire movie the point is each of our main characters has an arc moving them from where they ended in TFA to a point they can build on in Ep9. Poe goes from hotshot pilot to rebel leader. Finn goes from man just trying to save his friends and escape the First Order to a committed rebel. Rey goes from the person trying to go home to someone who is moving forward in a healthy way, learning from the past but also leaving parts of it behind that would hold her back. Luke goes from disillusionment to inner peace. There are elements of all these arcs that subvert expectations because that's a tool in any storyteller's toolbox. It's a way to surprise and excite and engage the audience, like any other technique. But subversion is not the point of these arcs. And frankly, none of them are actually subversive in their overall direction. It's all very classic hero's journey type stuff.

    And if Holdo were a man and/or less coded to seem passive and feminine, then Poe and also the audience would be less likely to doubt her and so less likely to take Poe's side. She doesn't fit Poe or our expectations of what a rebel leader should look like. Poe literally vocalizes this during her first appearance:
    POE: That's Admiral Holdo? Battle of Chyron Belt, Admiral Holdo? Not what I expected.
    That's the point.

    shryke on
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Are you just like, not reading what I'm writing?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    TLJ's resistance storyline is fundamentally flawed for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that Johnson was so apt to subvert tropes and deconstruct Star Wars that he never bothered to build a story past that. There's no real reason for Holdo to keep everyone in the dark, no real reason for Poe to go zero to mutiny in sixty seconds, except for Johnson to say "look kids, daring plans don't always work and sometimes you don't know best!"

    Subverting expectations is great for plot twists and sudden reversals, but that's enough to carry a story. The best deconstructions work because of what they do after the deconstructing. Once Johnson's finished blowing up Star Wars tropes, the movie ends. There's nothing else. When you build an entire story on novelty and nothing else, the audience is less likely to marvel at your genius than wonder why they bothered.

    The other big problem is awful pacing. It's a movie-length chase scene that's supposed to be hectic enough to justify constant panic yet slow enough that we've got time for two entire side adventures before the end. Why they didn't just have them reach the salt planet in Act 1 and just have the First Oder be on their way, I'll never know.

    This whole "it's all just subversion" narrative is just wrong though. There's a ton more going on in TLJ then just subverting expectations. Nor is that even the primary purpose.

    Like, as an obvious example, the resistance storyline is Poe's storyline and the point is to move Poe's character. From the beginning where he charges in even though Leia tells him the job is done and it's time to retreat to the point at the end where Finn wants to charge in to help Luke and Poe stops and says "No, there's a bigger plan at work here" and does something different and saves the final members of the Resistance. That's what that entire thread of the story is built around and the parts all work in service to that. Poe goes from Leia's most favoured dashing hotshot pilot to the leader of the Resistance.

    Holdo is a step along this arc. She affords Poe no special privileges or deference. Which you can tell he's not used to by the way he interacts with her. And ultimately he's wrong and Holdo is working directly off Leia's orders and Leia sets him straight when she regains consciousness. The point of things like how Holdo looks and acts is to emphasize this. We, the audience, naturally take Poe's side because he's the protagonist and acts like a standard action-first protagonist.

    But the point of this is not deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction, it's to further Poe's character arc across the film. To mould him into a character who can lead the Resistance.

    Poe disobeying Leia is the only reason that shitty chase was allowed to happen. And for disobeying orders (before the FO magically appear) he is demoted in rank.

    The whole 'get a guy to hack the thing' plan was garbage because there was no plan to implement. It failed precisely because the writer wanted them to fail to ensure that Holdo's plan (a plan so comforting to the crew Poe managed to convince some of them to enact the dumbest mutiny ever) was a good one. A plan that was, in fact, so good that when informed of it Poe immediately admitted it could work. It basically only failed because Poe didn't know the plan in the first place.

    Nearly everything in TLJ is for the convenience to push a narrative that they wanted at the end. An ending, by the way, that saw the utter decimation of the resistance to about a dozen people and a freighter?

    Where do you go from there? Apparently there are so many possibilities. I mean, if you're going to claim a movie that simply placed all the pieces precisely where they wanted them in spite of no real logical reason for them to be there as an excellent piece of filmmaking, then of course there are unlimited possibilities where you can go.

    The first mistake the ST made was to place itself withing the life/timeline of Luke/Leia/Han. They should have been long dead. The Empire and its remnant gone or nearly there. Want to create stories that don't conform to expectations, then create a new setting. The new characters are flat and useless. The old character are treated worse just to make the new ones look better. TLJ should have been reworked and turned into a side story. Not a keystone in a series of movies intended to continue a story that didn't need it.

    Nah, all the parts make sense. Everything is for the narrative purpose of pushing the plot forward, yes. That's, like, the point of writing things with plots in many ways. The Death Star has a fundamental flaw that can only be exploited by a single tiny fighter running down a trench a making a super difficult precise shot because that's what allows the ending they wanted for the film. There's nothing strange about this. The question is always do these things make sense in light of the characters.

    Poe charges in recklessly at the start of the film because that's the kind of person he is. He institutes his own plan to save the fleet because that's the kind of person he is. He tries to take over the ship when he thinks Holdo is being a coward for evacuating the ships and running because that's the kind of person he is. It's all in line with his personality.

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure. The Resistance spends the entire movie losing a bit at a time, over and over, till there's almost nothing left. And then they win. They escape to join up with their sympathizers across the galaxy they spend the whole film talking about. In the film's phrasing, to be the spark that will ignite the fire that will restore the Republic. The film shows us they almost lost, but they won in the end and now they are on their way to building a bigger Resistance that can win against the First Order.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Are you just like, not reading what I'm writing?

    Yes.
    in many places subversion was clearly the theme where it wasn't necessary and detracted from the overall plot, characterization, and quality of the film.

    This is not correct. Subversion was not the theme of the film, nor was it the point.

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    And if Holdo were a man and/or less coded to seem passive and feminine, then Poe and also the audience would be less likely to doubt her and so less likely to take Poe's side. She doesn't fit Poe or our expectations of what a rebel leader should look like. Poe literally vocalizes this during her first appearance:
    POE: That's Admiral Holdo? Battle of Chyron Belt, Admiral Holdo? Not what I expected.
    That's the point.

    That dialog is so dumb in the context of the Star Wars universe, though.

    Prequels - Padme is a badass leader that gets stuff done
    OT - Leia is a badass leader. Mon Mothma (dressed basically the same as holdo) literally leads the rebellion.
    ST - Leia is still leading the Resistance. Poe is confused by a woman in charge.

    It'd be like if in Harry Potter in book 6 all of a sudden Harry Potter had a problem with a woman teaching defense of the dark arts or something.

    It doesn't fit and makes no sense. Especially for the audience considering the plethora of women in charge in the SW universe. The reason I didn't like Holdo is literally the same reason I wouldn't have liked the character even they were a man, they were needlessly dismissive of Poe (our main character) and seemingly didn't even have a plan or at least their plan (from our perspective) was garbage and ineffectual.

  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    I’m not gonna call bullshit on JJ having drafts of the other sequels...but something stinks.

    If they exist, why doesn't LFL force RJ to use it? Rogue One and Solo definitely show that Kennedy will step in when she feels it’s needed.

    Maybe they do exist and RJ’s TLJ script blows it out of the water?

    Maybe they only exist on JJ’s computer, like unpublished fan fiction?

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    I’m not gonna call bullshit on JJ having drafts of the other sequels...but something stinks.

    If they exist, why doesn't LFL force RJ to use it? Rogue One and Solo definitely show that Kennedy will step in when she feels it’s needed.

    Maybe they do exist and RJ’s TLJ script blows it out of the water?

    Maybe they only exist on JJ’s computer, like unpublished fan fiction?

    Its pretty widely known that KK was hands off on each directors vision for their movie in the ST. Which is dumb considering they weren't standalone movies.

    Yet like you said, she was aggressive when it came to Rogue One and Solo, but I think thats because those two movies were having actual problems during production. I guess she's fine as long as the movie is made properly and sticking to budget/schedule. She is less good when it comes to a cohesive vision. Which is the main problem of the ST, imo.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I blame everyone all the way down, pretty much except the directors. They came on and did the best they probably could under the circumstances. And it was a once in a lifetime chance (guess for Abrams twice but whatever) not like any of them were gonna say no either

    I'm sure they realized just by signing on, they knew every single star wars fan would probably go on to hate them as much as Lucas

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    TLJ's resistance storyline is fundamentally flawed for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that Johnson was so apt to subvert tropes and deconstruct Star Wars that he never bothered to build a story past that. There's no real reason for Holdo to keep everyone in the dark, no real reason for Poe to go zero to mutiny in sixty seconds, except for Johnson to say "look kids, daring plans don't always work and sometimes you don't know best!"

    Subverting expectations is great for plot twists and sudden reversals, but that's enough to carry a story. The best deconstructions work because of what they do after the deconstructing. Once Johnson's finished blowing up Star Wars tropes, the movie ends. There's nothing else. When you build an entire story on novelty and nothing else, the audience is less likely to marvel at your genius than wonder why they bothered.

    The other big problem is awful pacing. It's a movie-length chase scene that's supposed to be hectic enough to justify constant panic yet slow enough that we've got time for two entire side adventures before the end. Why they didn't just have them reach the salt planet in Act 1 and just have the First Oder be on their way, I'll never know.

    Holdo refusing to tell Poe her plan really rubs me the most wrong tbh, every person there is a criminal by the treaties of the Republic (or was when they started fighting)

    "Shut up and do what you're told" means that every one of them is living under the Empire as happy little citizens obeying the authority. They seem to conflate the wrong thing Poe did (disobeying orders mid battle earlier) with not being open and honest with your officers when every one of these people is going to live or die based upon belief in you as a commander during a strategy meeting

    The fact that the movie ended up making Poe RIGHT about killing the dreadnought, because if it had survived it would have used its megacannons to pick off the Resistance fleet as it fled from long distance, makes things even more stupid and muddied.


    override367 on
  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    TLJ's resistance storyline is fundamentally flawed for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that Johnson was so apt to subvert tropes and deconstruct Star Wars that he never bothered to build a story past that. There's no real reason for Holdo to keep everyone in the dark, no real reason for Poe to go zero to mutiny in sixty seconds, except for Johnson to say "look kids, daring plans don't always work and sometimes you don't know best!"

    Subverting expectations is great for plot twists and sudden reversals, but that's enough to carry a story. The best deconstructions work because of what they do after the deconstructing. Once Johnson's finished blowing up Star Wars tropes, the movie ends. There's nothing else. When you build an entire story on novelty and nothing else, the audience is less likely to marvel at your genius than wonder why they bothered.

    The other big problem is awful pacing. It's a movie-length chase scene that's supposed to be hectic enough to justify constant panic yet slow enough that we've got time for two entire side adventures before the end. Why they didn't just have them reach the salt planet in Act 1 and just have the First Oder be on their way, I'll never know.

    Holdo refusing to tell Poe her plan really rubs me the most wrong tbh, every person there is a criminal by the treaties of the Republic (or was when they started fighting)

    "Shut up and do what you're told" means that every one of them is living under the Empire as happy little citizens obeying the authority. They seem to conflate the wrong thing Poe did (disobeying orders mid battle earlier) with not being open and honest with your officers when every one of these people is going to live or die based upon belief in you as a commander during a strategy meeting

    The fact that the movie ended up making Poe RIGHT about killing the dreadnought, because if it had survived it would have used its megacannons to pick off the Resistance fleet as it fled from long distance, makes things even more stupid and muddied.


    Poe was demoted and no longer in the chain of command. And between that and the obvious security risk of their escape plan leaking when they don't know how they are being tracked, such a possible spies on board, Poe, like most of the crew, would logically have no longer been need-to-know. So at that point if he had concerns over any plans he needed to bring it up with his new CO, not the Admiral of the fleet. "Shut up and do as you're told" is frankly being nice for someone who got a lot of people killed and is still being an insubordinate ass.

    Holdo shutting Poe down and Poe being post hoc justified about the dreadnought is done deliberately to make the audience hate Holdo and support Poe just long enough to show Poe is still failing at being a proper leader. Now I won't argue that the setup is a bit too contrived, but it serves the narrative purpose of getting Poe into a spot where he can then grow and actually learn to be the good leader he needs to be.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    shryke wrote: »
    ...

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.

    ...

    When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.

    Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I blame everyone all the way down, pretty much except the directors. They came on and did the best they probably could under the circumstances. And it was a once in a lifetime chance (guess for Abrams twice but whatever) not like any of them were gonna say no either

    I'm sure they realized just by signing on, they knew every single star wars fan would probably go on to hate them as much as Lucas

    There is absolutely enough blame for the directors as well.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I blame everyone all the way down, pretty much except the directors. They came on and did the best they probably could under the circumstances. And it was a once in a lifetime chance (guess for Abrams twice but whatever) not like any of them were gonna say no either

    I'm sure they realized just by signing on, they knew every single star wars fan would probably go on to hate them as much as Lucas

    There is absolutely enough blame for the directors as well.

    If Disney walks up to a director, just about any director, and offers them a blank check and the ability to make the next star wars movie? They'd be insane to say no. And it's not like anyone is confused about what kind of movies JJ and Rian made before these? JJ loves puzzle boxes with terribly unsatisfactory answers, but the action and pacing is good albeit breathless. And Rian loves deconstruction of genre and putting his own personal flair behind the camera work. These were not things they should have been surprised by. They made exactly what they paid them to, their own personal vision of what modern star wars is/could be.

    It's a damn shame because in the chaos lots of good actors got thrown under the bus, character-wise. And of course the same goes for those actors, you'd be insane to turn down a role in Star Wars, but look what the fans did all because they didn't like Rose...

    In the end I think you lay the blame at the suits at Disney for letting Kennedy just walk around like a cowboy shooting from the hip but with the accuracy of a stormtrooper

  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I blame everyone all the way down, pretty much except the directors. They came on and did the best they probably could under the circumstances. And it was a once in a lifetime chance (guess for Abrams twice but whatever) not like any of them were gonna say no either

    I'm sure they realized just by signing on, they knew every single star wars fan would probably go on to hate them as much as Lucas

    There is absolutely enough blame for the directors as well.

    If Disney walks up to a director, just about any director, and offers them a blank check and the ability to make the next star wars movie? They'd be insane to say no. And it's not like anyone is confused about what kind of movies JJ and Rian made before these? JJ loves puzzle boxes with terribly unsatisfactory answers, but the action and pacing is good albeit breathless. And Rian loves deconstruction of genre and putting his own personal flair behind the camera work. These were not things they should have been surprised by. They made exactly what they paid them to, their own personal vision of what modern star wars is/could be.

    It's a damn shame because in the chaos lots of good actors got thrown under the bus, character-wise. And of course the same goes for those actors, you'd be insane to turn down a role in Star Wars, but look what the fans did all because they didn't like Rose...

    In the end I think you lay the blame at the suits at Disney for letting Kennedy just walk around like a cowboy shooting from the hip but with the accuracy of a stormtrooper

    Bullshit. JJ prefers his mystery boxes to never be answered at all.

    Ketar on
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    IDK he answered lots of them in RoS but

    *Nobody liked that*

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I blame everyone all the way down, pretty much except the directors. They came on and did the best they probably could under the circumstances. And it was a once in a lifetime chance (guess for Abrams twice but whatever) not like any of them were gonna say no either

    I'm sure they realized just by signing on, they knew every single star wars fan would probably go on to hate them as much as Lucas

    There is absolutely enough blame for the directors as well.

    If Disney walks up to a director, just about any director, and offers them a blank check and the ability to make the next star wars movie? They'd be insane to say no. And it's not like anyone is confused about what kind of movies JJ and Rian made before these? JJ loves puzzle boxes with terribly unsatisfactory answers, but the action and pacing is good albeit breathless. And Rian loves deconstruction of genre and putting his own personal flair behind the camera work. These were not things they should have been surprised by. They made exactly what they paid them to, their own personal vision of what modern star wars is/could be.

    It's a damn shame because in the chaos lots of good actors got thrown under the bus, character-wise. And of course the same goes for those actors, you'd be insane to turn down a role in Star Wars, but look what the fans did all because they didn't like Rose...

    In the end I think you lay the blame at the suits at Disney for letting Kennedy just walk around like a cowboy shooting from the hip but with the accuracy of a stormtrooper

    I don't blame them for taking the job. You are absolutely correct that they'd be utterly insane not to take the job. I would take the job, and I know next to nothing about filmmaking.

    That doesn't mean they aren't responsible for the work they make, though.

  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    edited September 2020
    I think TRoS was a mess primarily because of studio response to the internet backlash. JJ can make a perfectly entertaining film (see TFA), particularly when the story or even genre fits his strengths (see Cloverfield). The racist, sexist, weeaboo bullshit is because Disney execs don't understand the internet (see James Gunn for further proof).

    Blame the suits.

    Nobeard on
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I blame everyone all the way down, pretty much except the directors. They came on and did the best they probably could under the circumstances. And it was a once in a lifetime chance (guess for Abrams twice but whatever) not like any of them were gonna say no either

    I'm sure they realized just by signing on, they knew every single star wars fan would probably go on to hate them as much as Lucas

    There is absolutely enough blame for the directors as well.

    If Disney walks up to a director, just about any director, and offers them a blank check and the ability to make the next star wars movie? They'd be insane to say no. And it's not like anyone is confused about what kind of movies JJ and Rian made before these? JJ loves puzzle boxes with terribly unsatisfactory answers, but the action and pacing is good albeit breathless. And Rian loves deconstruction of genre and putting his own personal flair behind the camera work. These were not things they should have been surprised by. They made exactly what they paid them to, their own personal vision of what modern star wars is/could be.

    It's a damn shame because in the chaos lots of good actors got thrown under the bus, character-wise. And of course the same goes for those actors, you'd be insane to turn down a role in Star Wars, but look what the fans did all because they didn't like Rose...

    In the end I think you lay the blame at the suits at Disney for letting Kennedy just walk around like a cowboy shooting from the hip but with the accuracy of a stormtrooper

    I don't blame them for taking the job. You are absolutely correct that they'd be utterly insane not to take the job. I would take the job, and I know next to nothing about filmmaking.

    That doesn't mean they aren't responsible for the work they make, though.

    Eh, it's kinda a no win situation. And I would say the ones paying for the film are ultimately responsible, because at any time they could have pulled the plug. As has been pointed out they weren't afraid to do so with Solo. Nobody said hey, maybe let's slow down and really think about this script. It was never even an option on the table. You could kinda see them completely struggle to figure out what to do after TLJ got shit all over, but also didn't give themselves any time to really fix things, and that probably killed any chance we had at a satisfying conclusion.

  • mRahmanimRahmani DetroitRegistered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Shivahn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    ...

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.

    ...

    When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.

    Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.

    I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.

    TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.

    On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.

    mRahmani on
  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    Honestly, TFA was the best of the ST to me despite being derivative and the JJisms because it did what was supposed to do, it introduced new interesting characters and got the audience invested in coming back to Star Wars

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Matev wrote: »
    Honestly, TFA was the best of the ST to me despite being derivative and the JJisms because it did what was supposed to do, it introduced new interesting characters and got the audience invested in coming back to Star Wars

    Anecdotal, but I saw TFA in theaters 7 times.* I saw TLJ and TROS once each, and have never felt a desire to go back. TFA is flawed, like anything, but it's fun. It's more of an adventure than either of its sequels and that, maybe more than anything else, is what a Star Wars story has to nail.

    *
    It helped that I was working at a movie theater at the time, so I only actually paid to see it twice. Corporate banned free tickets for the first week after release, because they're the real evil Empire.

  • navgoosenavgoose Registered User regular
    I agree, TFA was probably my fave of the ST.

    TLJ was fine, and ultimately was dependent on things that could have happened in an alternate RoS. Like Poe redeeming himself, Finn becoming a hero of the resistance, Rey taking the Jedi knowledge on a new path...

    RoS, to me, crapped all over the OT and previous 2 ST movies. Hate it.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    TLJ killed my interest in the trilogy stone dead. The film made it extravagantly clear the trilogy had no fucking clue where it was going and ended on the sort of point where you start a trilogy, not be heading into the big conclusion of a nine-film saga. I knew there was no possible way the third movie could be both a good movie and manage to pull together something interesting in a forward direction for the story, at least not without being the length of the Return of the King extended edition or something like that.

    Sure enough, Abrams delivered solidly on that expectation and more. Anything interesting Rian set up, Abrams clumsily tore down and then went double-double-Abrams and badly rehashed the original trilogy again while ALSO adding the incredibly shitty Palpatine garbage. I had low expectations but holy crap, I was not expecting Abrams to bring along his own mining equipment to move the bar that much lower.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I think TRoS was a mess primarily because of studio response to the internet backlash. JJ can make a perfectly entertaining film (see TFA), particularly when the story or even genre fits his strengths (see Cloverfield). The racist, sexist, weeaboo bullshit is because Disney execs don't understand the internet (see James Gunn for further proof).

    Blame the suits.

    JJ is the suit. He was second on the entire project after Kennedy. He would be the single person with the most involvement in all three films. The idea that he didn't have anything to do with TLJ is kind of ridiculous on its face

    wbBv3fj.png
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    ...

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.

    ...

    When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.

    Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.

    I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.

    TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.

    On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.

    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.

    And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.

  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    shryke wrote: »
    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    The fact that this is such an argued point among the fandom is mind-boggling to me. How can anyone watch this scene and think otherwise? Luke is the spark! The kids play with the toys and tell the story of Luke facing down the First Order. Broom Kid gets a reminder of how shitty his life is and goes off to look up at the stars and dream...

    Broom Kid is all of us. How was this not obvious?

    (Don't answer that, you animals. It was rhetorical.)

    Steelhawk on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    TLJ was widely praised by critics. I don't know where you get the notion that it had bad reviews.

    Just because critics gave it good reviews means that it didn't get poor reviews at all. The Rotten Tomatoes audience score is far lower. And yes, I realize that some of that is driven by the toxic man-children, but are the TLJ Brigade unable to accept that a lot of real life viewers don't like it for non-toxic reasons?

    If you’re going to claim TLJ “got bad reviews so [Disney] scrapped the existing screenplay” I would like you to substantiate that with something actually tangible beyond some people review bombing Rotten Tomatoes, something Disney has made an explicit point of ignoring.

    Again, TLJ was widely praised by critics and preformed extremely well at the box office. What makes you think Disney was worried about its bad reviews?

    Finally, I am not a brigade. Grow up. Learn to disagree about something without throwing insults.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    The fact that this is such an argued point among the fandom is mind-boggling to me. How can anyone watch this scene and think otherwise? Luke is the spark! The kids play with the toys and tell the story of Luke facing down the First Order. Broom Kid gets a reminder of how shitty his life is and goes off to look up at the stars and dream...

    Broom Kid is all of us. How was this not obvious?

    (Don't answer that, you animals. It was rhetorical.)

    Because I did not think it was a very good movie, and I actually missed the end of the scene the first time I saw it.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    The fact that this is such an argued point among the fandom is mind-boggling to me. How can anyone watch this scene and think otherwise? Luke is the spark! The kids play with the toys and tell the story of Luke facing down the First Order. Broom Kid gets a reminder of how shitty his life is and goes off to look up at the stars and dream...

    Broom Kid is all of us. How was this not obvious?

    (Don't answer that, you animals. It was rhetorical.)

    That scene follows the Resistance explicitly saying "everyone got the message and they're not coming".

    Like the symbolism is obvious and like a ton of other stuff in that movie is just tonally out of place with everything else and muddled by all the other things the movie does.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    ...

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.

    ...

    When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.

    Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.

    I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.

    TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.

    On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.

    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.

    And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.

    A vast, vast amount of TRoS would be easily improved by “IT AS BEEN 10 YEARS” instead of “THE DEAD SPEAK” and going from there. Abrams deciding the next movie takes place a few weeks later when he was given a perfect setup to create whatever he wanted the new universe to be is mind boggling.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    The fact that this is such an argued point among the fandom is mind-boggling to me. How can anyone watch this scene and think otherwise? Luke is the spark! The kids play with the toys and tell the story of Luke facing down the First Order. Broom Kid gets a reminder of how shitty his life is and goes off to look up at the stars and dream...

    Broom Kid is all of us. How was this not obvious?

    (Don't answer that, you animals. It was rhetorical.)

    That scene follows the Resistance explicitly saying "everyone got the message and they're not coming".

    Like the symbolism is obvious and like a ton of other stuff in that movie is just tonally out of place with everything else and muddled by all the other things the movie does.

    It doesn't follow that scene. There's a whole bunch of scenes between those points. Including the literal climax of the entire film. Important things happen during that time for fairly obvious reasons.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    ...

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.

    ...

    When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.

    Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.

    I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.

    TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.

    On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.

    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.

    And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.

    A vast, vast amount of TRoS would be easily improved by “IT AS BEEN 10 YEARS” instead of “THE DEAD SPEAK” and going from there. Abrams deciding the next movie takes place a few weeks later when he was given a perfect setup to create whatever he wanted the new universe to be is mind boggling.

    The choices of both movies to have no temporal gap between the preceding one whatsoever were extremely poor.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    “The resistance is brought down to a few dozen people with each main character perfectly poised to develop and lead the future rebellion? Nah screw that. Palpatine fucks.”

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    ...

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.

    ...

    When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.

    Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.

    I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.

    TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.

    On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.

    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.

    And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.

    A vast, vast amount of TRoS would be easily improved by “IT AS BEEN 10 YEARS” instead of “THE DEAD SPEAK” and going from there. Abrams deciding the next movie takes place a few weeks later when he was given a perfect setup to create whatever he wanted the new universe to be is mind boggling.

    The choices of both movies to have no temporal gap between the preceding one whatsoever were extremely poor.

    How much of a gap would you expect between Rey meeting Luke and her beginning her training?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    ...

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.

    ...

    When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.

    Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.

    I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.

    TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.

    On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.

    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.

    And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.

    A vast, vast amount of TRoS would be easily improved by “IT AS BEEN 10 YEARS” instead of “THE DEAD SPEAK” and going from there. Abrams deciding the next movie takes place a few weeks later when he was given a perfect setup to create whatever he wanted the new universe to be is mind boggling.

    I don't think the lack of gap is the problem. It's a problem but it's mostly just symptomatic of the larger issue of ignoring the setup of TLJ.

    And it seems in service to just repeating the ending of TLJ again in some respects, except this time it's Lando inspiring the galaxy to join the rebelliion. Off-screen.

  • GiantGeek2020GiantGeek2020 Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    ...

    And yeah, the ending does have the Resistance almost wiped out. Just like almost the entire fighter force the rebels send after the Death Star die. Just like Neo literally dies right before the end. Because you push your heroes to the ragged edge before they pull out the win at the last minute. That's a very common structure.

    ...

    When I was younger, I fucking loved Star Wars. I watched it about a billion times. I don't remember which editions we had (though definitely I saw the originals first), but I remember that the start of each one had an interview with George Lucas talking about making the films. I remember very little except that he said that he followed a very classic structure in the films: in the first act, you introduce the heroes, in the second, you put them in a dark situation where they're never going to get out, and in the third act, they get out. "That's drama." I don't think he was wrong! At least, about that being a major, common, classic way to do drama.

    Anyway seeing this just reminds me of that. Who knows how honest he was being about that being his plan (at least once the first movie was a hit), but the rebels being crushed and almost hopeless was deliberate in Empire Strikes Back, so I don't feel like it was out of place there.

    I keep seeing the supposed parallel to ESB being thrown around, but it’s really not the same. At the end of Empire, Luke has already healed from his wound and is adjusting to his mechanical hand, and they’re in space with a bunch of Rebel ships. It was a lost battle, not a lost war - and with Han being explicitly pointed out as alive, we have a basic idea of how the heroes will regroup and save the day in the finale.

    TFA sets up the entire republic fleet/hierarchy/whatever getting blown up, and then TLJ compounds on it with the entire resistance reduced to maybe two dozen people. There’s no fleet to regroup with, Han is dead, Luke is dead, and it’s explicitly called out that nobody is responding to help or coming to support. “We are the spark that will blah blah” doesn’t mean shit when the entire galaxy heard you call for help and collectively shrugged. The war is over and the resistance lost, and the only spark of optimism is that broomstick kid can use the force. Which, ok, that’s nice if he’s all trained up in 15 years, but is completely irrelevant to the fight against the first order.

    On its own merits TLJ is the best of the sequel trilogy, but it really leaves ROS with hardly anything to work with.

    No, the end of TLJ is implying that because of Luke's actions reaching across the galaxy, all those people that weren't responding are now joining up. The fires of rebellion are spreading. The kid is symbolic ffs, he's not supposed to be a major character in the next film.

    TLJ sets up an obvious direction for the next film. Rey is figuring out the new Jedi order. Poe is leading the new rebellion. Finn is a rebel hero. They are gonna kick the First Order around.

    And you can glance at the leaked Treverrow script and see that people got that part. It may suck (that script sucks) but it clearly sees the pieces left for it.

    A vast, vast amount of TRoS would be easily improved by “IT AS BEEN 10 YEARS” instead of “THE DEAD SPEAK” and going from there. Abrams deciding the next movie takes place a few weeks later when he was given a perfect setup to create whatever he wanted the new universe to be is mind boggling.

    The choices of both movies to have no temporal gap between the preceding one whatsoever were extremely poor.

    How much of a gap would you expect between Rey meeting Luke and her beginning her training?

    Could have just skipped to the training in Media Res.

This discussion has been closed.