[Star Wars] Yay Jar Jar!

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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    Best saber fights:
    Rebels

    You know which one.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I don't get the love for the translocation fight in TROS. Nothing interesting going on in terms of fighting and it also manages to shit the bed by featuring one of the worst retcons of the film.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    edited September 20
    reVerse wrote: »
    Best saber fights:
    Rebels

    You know which one.

    Rebels probably has all the best fights if we're being honest. Especially the two with Darth Maul.

    Edit: Or am I getting my series mixed up and thinking of Clone Wars?

    Inquisitor77 on
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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    Best saber fights:
    Rebels

    You know which one.

    I hope you mean the best saber fight in the entire franchise.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    I don't get the love for the translocation fight in TROS. Nothing interesting going on in terms of fighting and it also manages to shit the bed by featuring one of the worst retcons of the film.

    What does it retcon?

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Oh yeah I'm definitely thinking of that fight in Rebels and then the other one that was released recently for the end of Clone Wars.

  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    I watched TRoS many years after TLJ and TFA and so I only remembered the broad plot points of those movies at the time of watching. This meant I was caught off guard by the translocation stuff in TRoS because I had forgot it was a thing.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    It never should've been a thing, just like the Force Dyad never should've been a thing.

    Commander ZoomFencingsax
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited September 20
    A suggested video has me wondering...does Rebels feature the most disturbing use of the Force by a character that never actually falls to the Dark Side?

    Ezra's mind control of the AT-DP pilot isn't exactly more evil than just killing them with blasters, but it feels wrong in a way that tells you Ezra shouldn't be doing it.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    I don't get the love for the translocation fight in TROS. Nothing interesting going on in terms of fighting and it also manages to shit the bed by featuring one of the worst retcons of the film.

    What does it retcon?

    That's where Kylo first starts dropping the whole "actually what TLJ said about your parents is not true" shit.

    Doctor DetroitAistan
  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    I keep thinking about when they are 'infiltrating' the ship in TRoS and just straight up gunning down, never missing, one hit killing every stormtrooper they come into contact with. It's like a reverse ANH Death Star escape.

    But half the stormtroopers they murder seem to be women so hey, progress.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    The moment where I thought they'd killed Chewy was perhaps the best part of that movie. The one thing I think it did well is that I'd genuinely believe Rey would go down a path of anger and destruction.

    Man they wasted some good actors.

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  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    A suggested video has me wondering...does Rebels feature the most disturbing use of the Force by a character that never actually falls to the Dark Side?

    Ezra's mind control of the AT-DP pilot isn't exactly more evil than just killing them with blasters, but it feels wrong in a way that tells you Ezra shouldn't be doing it.

    The entirety of that scene is dripping with "this shit is evil, yo" with Sabine taking her helmet off in stunned awe, the evil sounding music, and them asking him when Kanan taught him that and the response being "he didn't" accompanied by a menacing glare.

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Rey's saber drop move in the throne room fight sums up the entire sequence. It doesn't make sense physically, the guard just stands there and waits to get chopped in half. The weapons were stupid looking, too. They all look like toys, especially the whip.

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    joshgotro wrote: »
    weak choreography for the throne room fight

    Best fight scene in all nine movies!

    Because the mainline Star Wars movies have always had absolutely shit fight choreography!

    joshgotro
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited September 20
    Opty wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    A suggested video has me wondering...does Rebels feature the most disturbing use of the Force by a character that never actually falls to the Dark Side?

    Ezra's mind control of the AT-DP pilot isn't exactly more evil than just killing them with blasters, but it feels wrong in a way that tells you Ezra shouldn't be doing it.

    The entirety of that scene is dripping with "this shit is evil, yo" with Sabine taking her helmet off in stunned awe, the evil sounding music, and them asking him when Kanan taught him that and the response being "he didn't" accompanied by a menacing glare.

    Rebels is often compared to an "Edge of the Empire" RPG campaign. I'd say Ezra's player racked up a few DSP in that scene.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    I don't get the love for the translocation fight in TROS. Nothing interesting going on in terms of fighting and it also manages to shit the bed by featuring one of the worst retcons of the film.

    What does it retcon?

    That's where Kylo first starts dropping the whole "actually what TLJ said about your parents is not true" shit.

    Ahh. Yes

    wbBv3fj.png
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    A suggested video has me wondering...does Rebels feature the most disturbing use of the Force by a character that never actually falls to the Dark Side?

    Ezra's mind control of the AT-DP pilot isn't exactly more evil than just killing them with blasters, but it feels wrong in a way that tells you Ezra shouldn't be doing it.

    The entirety of that scene is dripping with "this shit is evil, yo" with Sabine taking her helmet off in stunned awe, the evil sounding music, and them asking him when Kanan taught him that and the response being "he didn't" accompanied by a menacing glare.

    Rebels is often compared to an "Edge of the Empire" RPG campaign. I'd say Ezra's player racked up a few DSP in that scene.

    (adjusts nonexistent glasses) Ahem I think you'll find it's called Conflict.

    GiantGeek2020ElvenshaeNightslyr
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    A suggested video has me wondering...does Rebels feature the most disturbing use of the Force by a character that never actually falls to the Dark Side?

    Ezra's mind control of the AT-DP pilot isn't exactly more evil than just killing them with blasters, but it feels wrong in a way that tells you Ezra shouldn't be doing it.

    The entirety of that scene is dripping with "this shit is evil, yo" with Sabine taking her helmet off in stunned awe, the evil sounding music, and them asking him when Kanan taught him that and the response being "he didn't" accompanied by a menacing glare.

    Rebels is often compared to an "Edge of the Empire" RPG campaign. I'd say Ezra's player racked up a few DSP in that scene.

    (adjusts nonexistent glasses) Ahem I think you'll find it's called Conflict.

    Yeah, well, I'm still a WEG player/GM at heart, so I'm gonna roll 3D+2 for bite me.

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    I liked the Throne Room fight right up until I watched a 'Stuntman Reacts' and saw them point out all the bad choreography, missed timing, and just stupid stuff going on in that fight. Like at one point one of the guys near Rey just throws himself backwards for no reason.

    Now I can't unsee it.

    The guard choking Kylo with the spear at one point let's go of the weapon. Kylo has to choke himself while the guy gets a new grip. Rey crawls into another's arms like a lover to get into an arm lock and they had to cgi the knife out of his hand because he's waving it around behind her back.

    The final saber toss that ends with the laser face is baller, though. Everything leading up to it looks like an interpretive dance routine.

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Always thought that Anakin came across as, well, a bit thick during the first part of that.
    His entire squad gets wiped out, all around him, and all he sees/hears/senses is "something's not right." Really, dude?

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Always thought that Anakin came across as, well, a bit thick during the first part of that.
    His entire squad gets wiped out, all around him, and all he sees/hears/senses is "something's not right." Really, dude?

    But when his R4 gets blown up then he gets serious.

    Not sure what that says about him.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    I liked the Throne Room fight right up until I watched a 'Stuntman Reacts' and saw them point out all the bad choreography, missed timing, and just stupid stuff going on in that fight. Like at one point one of the guys near Rey just throws himself backwards for no reason.

    Now I can't unsee it.

    The guard choking Kylo with the spear at one point let's go of the weapon. Kylo has to choke himself while the guy gets a new grip. Rey crawls into another's arms like a lover to get into an arm lock and they had to cgi the knife out of his hand because he's waving it around behind her back.

    The final saber toss that ends with the laser face is baller, though. Everything leading up to it looks like an interpretive dance routine.

    I mean. Have you watched the Raid? Saying the fight in TLJ is bad is one thing but all of that kind of stuff happens in the Raid (along with some top quality arm waving)and no one bats an eye. And the raid was made with professional stunt men and martial artists doing the stunts rather than two people who had not had years of training.

    Jill bearup has a good video talking about what goes into something like that (and lots of other movie fight scenes if that is your bag) that might be worth your while but the main gist is that the fight does exactly what it needs to do and you should probably forgive it some of its mistakes since they happen in screen space you’re not really supposed to be looking at closely.

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  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    The Raid's budget was 1.1 million, TLJ was apparently 200 to 3-hundred-and-fucking-17-million. I'll indulge one film racing against its own budget versus one that has the best Hollywood can offer and still fails.

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    The 2 examples I used were front and center anyway. I'll admit that I didn't see Kylo choking himself the first time I watched it, but i did notice Rey. She jumps into the move terribly, she's "pinned" in a way that doesn't work if you are familiar with how arms move, and she gets out of it by the stuntman turning into a mannequin.

    Besides which, it doesn't work for me emotionally. I don't care about Kylo Ren. His origin did not move me. So it's just a bunch of nameless, faceless mooks dancing with the lady making poor life choices.

    FencingsaxeMoander
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    The thing that’s bothered me about the fight in hindsight is that they’re fighting Snoke’s bodyguards after Snoke is dead. Like, either hail the new boss or exit stage right. Might be too much cynicism fueled by discworld novels there.

    That fight is there mostly to heighten the eventual hard break between Kylo and Rey.

    The shot I remember from that fight was Kylo planting his blade in the floor a good half second ahead of a mook swinging to hit the blade with a blow that wasn’t going to hit anything. Flynning is a thing, but you need to do it a bit tighter than that.

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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular

    That's awesome. I love the way Anakin starts to win just brute force (get it?). He casually catches a multi-ton stone pillar then throws it back with as much or more force. Very cool.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The thing that’s bothered me about the fight in hindsight is that they’re fighting Snoke’s bodyguards after Snoke is dead. Like, either hail the new boss or exit stage right. Might be too much cynicism fueled by discworld novels there.

    I don't know that you can call your bodyguards fanatically loyal if they just shrug and acquiesce to anyone who successfully kills you.

    With the benefit of hindsight, the Throne Room fight would have been way cooler if it had been the Knights of Ren that Kylo and Rey had to fight. Rian Johnson didn't use them because he thought they had backstory to explore or something but that was an opportunity twice squandered. Have them get killed off in the Throne Room fight where you have cool "lightsaber vs not-lightsaber" combat, which drives home even harder how much Kylo is rejecting Snoke and trying to forge his own path, and also it removes the Knights of Ren from taking up so much screentime doing fuckall in TROS.

    Yes I know the "now I have a lightsaber" shrug is a rare moment we all like in TROS. But then it leads into a badly shot and frankly dull fight and the amount of time freed up for that film had it all gone down with better choreography in TLJ could only be a net improvement for TROS.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The thing that’s bothered me about the fight in hindsight is that they’re fighting Snoke’s bodyguards after Snoke is dead. Like, either hail the new boss or exit stage right. Might be too much cynicism fueled by discworld novels there.

    I don't know that you can call your bodyguards fanatically loyal if they just shrug and acquiesce to anyone who successfully kills you.

    With the benefit of hindsight, the Throne Room fight would have been way cooler if it had been the Knights of Ren that Kylo and Rey had to fight. Rian Johnson didn't use them because he thought they had backstory to explore or something but that was an opportunity twice squandered. Have them get killed off in the Throne Room fight where you have cool "lightsaber vs not-lightsaber" combat, which drives home even harder how much Kylo is rejecting Snoke and trying to forge his own path, and also it removes the Knights of Ren from taking up so much screentime doing fuckall in TROS.

    Yes I know the "now I have a lightsaber" shrug is a rare moment we all like in TROS. But then it leads into a badly shot and frankly dull fight and the amount of time freed up for that film had it all gone down with better choreography in TLJ could only be a net improvement for TROS.

    I prefer not having it be the Knights of Ren. That way they can replace said guards during the 3rd film. And then you can have like Rey and Finn have a badass lightsaber fight with the Knights of Ren or something on their way to Kylo Ren.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    The Raid's budget was 1.1 million, TLJ was apparently 200 to 3-hundred-and-fucking-17-million. I'll indulge one film racing against its own budget versus one that has the best Hollywood can offer and still fails.

    That budget goes to a lot of other things though. The point is that The Raid is literally a movie about fight scenes. That's it's goal. And you can still pick apart bits if you want. Cause it's a movie and thus, you know, fake.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The thing that’s bothered me about the fight in hindsight is that they’re fighting Snoke’s bodyguards after Snoke is dead. Like, either hail the new boss or exit stage right. Might be too much cynicism fueled by discworld novels there.

    I don't know that you can call your bodyguards fanatically loyal if they just shrug and acquiesce to anyone who successfully kills you.

    With the benefit of hindsight, the Throne Room fight would have been way cooler if it had been the Knights of Ren that Kylo and Rey had to fight. Rian Johnson didn't use them because he thought they had backstory to explore or something but that was an opportunity twice squandered. Have them get killed off in the Throne Room fight where you have cool "lightsaber vs not-lightsaber" combat, which drives home even harder how much Kylo is rejecting Snoke and trying to forge his own path, and also it removes the Knights of Ren from taking up so much screentime doing fuckall in TROS.

    Yes I know the "now I have a lightsaber" shrug is a rare moment we all like in TROS. But then it leads into a badly shot and frankly dull fight and the amount of time freed up for that film had it all gone down with better choreography in TLJ could only be a net improvement for TROS.

    I prefer not having it be the Knights of Ren. That way they can replace said guards during the 3rd film. And then you can have like Rey and Finn have a badass lightsaber fight with the Knights of Ren or something on their way to Kylo Ren.

    I mean you're asking for an entirely different film. I'm saying if RJ had used the Knights of Ren in TLJ even if JJ did mostly the same thing in TROS it possibly could have been less bad.

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Yes, many people who saw TROS are asking for an entirely different film.

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  • mRahmanimRahmani DetroitRegistered User regular
    Man y’all are picky about fight scenes, I remember the throne room fight being rad.

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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Man y’all are picky about fight scenes, I remember the throne room fight being rad.

    On first viewing it was very rad. The most recent time I watched it, though, I couldn't help but notice the performance of the fight choreography was kind of garbage. It's blatant when paying attention to the details which is less likely to happen the first time through.

    It's all poorly done flash and no substance.

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Hollywood has historically had garbage fight scenes. Compare the prequel fight scenes (sound and fury signifying nothing) to say the Bourne series (shakycam to hide the fact that nobody can sell a fight). Even John Wick, like The Raid, has excellent fight scenes for the most part, but every one of those movies has at least a few sections where they're just waving their hands at each other if you look for them. Unfortunately, fight choreography is seemingly not a high priority in even high budget action films for the most part. Furious 8, which at least blocks many of the shots in fights nicely and where it's easy to watch the line of action, frequently has moments where stuntmen are clearly throwing themselves around.

    It's still fun the first time I see it, but it's not the kind of priority you might see elsewhere.

    It's gotten a lot better over the last 50 years though! Compare the tentative poking around of Star Wars or the silly way James Bond holds his pistol to most movies today.

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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    Hollywood has historically had garbage fight scenes. Compare the prequel fight scenes (sound and fury signifying nothing) to say the Bourne series (shakycam to hide the fact that nobody can sell a fight). Even John Wick, like The Raid, has excellent fight scenes for the most part, but every one of those movies has at least a few sections where they're just waving their hands at each other if you look for them. Unfortunately, fight choreography is seemingly not a high priority in even high budget action films for the most part. Furious 8, which at least blocks many of the shots in fights nicely and where it's easy to watch the line of action, frequently has moments where stuntmen are clearly throwing themselves around.

    It's still fun the first time I see it, but it's not the kind of priority you might see elsewhere.

    It's gotten a lot better over the last 50 years though! Compare the tentative poking around of Star Wars or the silly way James Bond holds his pistol to most movies today.

    I mean, sure, but its really telling that when someone makes fun of the needless spinning of sabers in the PT, its basically accepted around here. But when someone points out the garbage choreography and performance of a TLJ fight, its defended by saying it happens everywhere. Just an example of how fanatical the defense of TLJ can be sometimes around here, making actual discussion about it nearly impossible.

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    mRahmani wrote: »
    Man y’all are picky about fight scenes, I remember the throne room fight being rad.

    On first viewing it was very rad. The most recent time I watched it, though, I couldn't help but notice the performance of the fight choreography was kind of garbage. It's blatant when paying attention to the details which is less likely to happen the first time through.

    It's all poorly done flash and no substance.

    Ironically, it belongs far more in an Abrams film. It's entertaining at first glance, but the slightest scrutiny and it immediately falls apart. All it takes is looking at parts of the scene other than exactly where the director wants you to focus and you can't miss how shoddy it was.

    Commander ZoomRingo
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    I try not to be too fanatical in my TLJ defense, but I’d argue there’s a difference in a fight scene having timing/choreography issues vs having utterly pointless moves.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    Yes, many people who saw TROS are asking for an entirely different film.

    I too would love a completely different film. This is me being "more realistic" with my fruitless wishing upon stars asking for a minor change that could have been for the better.

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