[Star Wars] Yay Jar Jar!

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    edited September 16
    Just me and J.J., Michelle, and our other producer and Kathy Kennedy
    Are you supposed to have five people at the table deciding what "has to make it into the movie"?

    i know the producer has to be consulted but all of them being involved in the idea-generation stage sounds weird. I don't pretend to know a how scriptwriting normally works, but it doesn't match up with the glimpses of it I've seen in documentaries and stuff. Like, I remember Taky describing how ME3's core story was basically written by the two lead guys in a locked room, right? And Lucas drafted the Star Wars scripts himself before giving them out to the producers etc to rewrite and fix and so on.

    I thought the ME3 "2 leads locked themselves in a room" thing was specifically for writing the "pick your color" ending. Which seems to have had a lot to do why it was such dumb, disconnected nonsense compared to the rest of the writing.

    But I can't imagine writing the 3rd film in a "planned" trilogy and needing to utter the phrase "what stories do we want to tell?". So even after 2 films, you don't have so much as an broad outline for where the story is going and you're just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks? That's just incompetence and TRoS is the result.

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  • mRahmanimRahmani DetroitRegistered User regular
    I will forever be baffled that they spent billions of dollars on 3 movies to build on an existing series with no plan for an overarching story. How do you get to the final episode and have no roadmap for what the general story should be?

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Correction, made billions of dollars

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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    I'm trying to think of the dumbest thing in TRoS and ignoring Finn's single, solitary thing in the movie, that he has something important he wants to tell Rey, is it. At least the movie thinks all the other stupid shit is exciting or meaningful. Finn's thing is dropped and never mentioned again.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    Correction, made billions of dollars

    Yea but they fucked themselves on future earnings. All of the interesting, bankable Star Wars content coming ahead is totally separate from the ST. Hell, the force and it's users, the unique thing about this pulp sci-fi setting, is often intentionally cut out or minimized because it's been shitted up by the movies. No one is looking forward to anything with the characters from the movies.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
    AistanmRahmaniMatev
  • Shazkar ShadowstormShazkar Shadowstorm Registered User regular
    edited September 16
    OremLK wrote: »
    12-year-old me would probably think 34-year-old me was very, very strange for waiting almost a year to finally see a new Star Wars movie, but here we are. Somehow feels appropriate for the weirdness that is 2020.

    The Rise of the MacGuffin: The Plot Device Strikes Back was, um, a thing. Felt like Abrams stood up in front of a whiteboard with a committee of writers and had them call out "cool things they want to see in the movie" and then cobbled them all together into a script without any actual thematic throughline and very little in the way of character arcs.

    I don't actually care that they threw out TLJ, even though I generally liked that movie, except I do feel bad for Tran. I'm more annoyed by how most of the movie is spent chasing around meaningless video game bullshit and most of the big plot developments and character moments feel like they were pulled out of thin air 5 minutes before they shot them. But my disappointment is pretty muted because to be honest, all of that's exactly what I expected from Abrams.

    All of that said: Some of the ideas on the Writing Committee Whiteboard were pretty cool. Loved the visuals on Exegoth, and the choir of Sith sycophants made for some incredible atmosphere. Flipping over a speeding TIE Fighter in slow motion and slicing off one of its wings is pretty much the best fanservice I've ever seen. The score and sound design was, as usual in a mainline Star Wars film, A++, and the movie's worth watching for that alone. I still like the chemistry between the main cast even when the writers have no idea what to do with them.

    Hm maybe I’ll watch it
    At some point this year
    I’m still not sure if I’ll bother, but I guess if I keep my expectations like yours it’ll be okay

    Your statement about the me from 22 years ago being very confused at me now is accurate

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited September 16
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    Can't agree at all. TLJ sets up a ton of stuff for a final film. Or like another whole series of films if you wanted frankly. What TLJ doesn't do is box the next film in. (And I'm pretty sure that's deliberate because there was no plan for the next film) It sets up the universe and it sets out some character arcs to be resolved but it doesn't define how those have to be resolved and leaves that up to the next film to figure out.

    It is in fact very similar to the end of ESB. ESB sets up "Rebels must confront the Empire" and "Luke must finish his training and confront Vader" with a side of "Rescue Han". TLJ sets up "NuRebels must confront the NuEmpire" and "Rey must complete her training and confront Kylo Ren". The main thing it's missing is something like the plot that ROTJ resolves within the first 30 minutes before moving on. Neither middle film does much of anything to lay out what the next film needs to do beyond those very general strokes.

    And in no way is Rey and Kylo Ren's relationship wrapped up. The two are still hurtling towards another confrontation. Even TROS understood that. Snoke being dead doesn't fucking matter because defeating Snoke was never the point. Even in TFA he's only a background character and TLJ doesn't defeat him so much as do a swap for Kylo Ren, who is a much more interesting and better defined character with way more screen time.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Just me and J.J., Michelle, and our other producer and Kathy Kennedy
    Are you supposed to have five people at the table deciding what "has to make it into the movie"?

    i know the producer has to be consulted but all of them being involved in the idea-generation stage sounds weird. I don't pretend to know a how scriptwriting normally works, but it doesn't match up with the glimpses of it I've seen in documentaries and stuff. Like, I remember Taky describing how ME3's core story was basically written by the two lead guys in a locked room, right? And Lucas drafted the Star Wars scripts himself before giving them out to the producers etc to rewrite and fix and so on.

    Everything in ME was written as a group and generally debated. The ending specifically was written by Casey Hudson and someone else without any input from the rest of the writing team. This was to streamline the process and make a difficult short deadline - because they literally had no idea what to do with the ending.

    The pick your color mess that resulted is what we were left with.

    Kind of like what happened here, where there was no direction and a rushed script to finish things was put into place.

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    They Force choked the mudhorn that laid the hairy gold-filled egg because they wanted a quick return on investment.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited September 16
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Correction, made billions of dollars

    Yea but they fucked themselves on future earnings. All of the interesting, bankable Star Wars content coming ahead is totally separate from the ST. Hell, the force and it's users, the unique thing about this pulp sci-fi setting, is often intentionally cut out or minimized because it's been shitted up by the movies. No one is looking forward to anything with the characters from the movies.

    and that, honestly, makes me sad.
    Finn, Poe, Rey and Rose (and John, Oscar, Daisy and especially Kelly) deserved better.

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  • Havelock2.0Havelock2.0 Registered User regular
    I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a movie or two that follows Rey as she pursues some of the more Esoteric Force stuff and runs into Ahsoka

    Or at least the concept that tapping into the Force isn't mutually exclusive to Jedi and Sith

    Something like "The Force was here long before they ever were, and the Force shall still be here when they're gone"

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  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

    OK, but hear me out. What if we make it the Palpatine Family Drama Hour instead?

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a movie or two that follows Rey as she pursues some of the more Esoteric Force stuff and runs into Ahsoka

    Or at least the concept that tapping into the Force isn't mutually exclusive to Jedi and Sith

    Something like "The Force was here long before they ever were, and the Force shall still be here when they're gone"

    1–Ahsoka is dead.

    2–That’s basically what Luke told her in TLJ!

  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

    OK, but hear me out. What if we make it the Palpatine Family Drama Hour instead?

    Well...it's heavily implied that Palpatine created Anakin. So we really got 9 movies about one goddamn family fucking up the galaxy for across four generations.

    Hot damn, TROS is dumb.

    Shadowen
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

    OK, but hear me out. What if we make it the Palpatine Family Drama Hour instead?

    Well...it's heavily implied that Palpatine created Anakin. So we really got 9 movies about one goddamn family fucking up the galaxy for across four generations.

    Hot damn, TROS is dumb.

    I thought it was implied that Palpatine's master created Anakin? But then some novelization implies instead the Force created Anakin in reaction to some shit Palpatine's master was doing?

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  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    They Force choked the mudhorn that laid the hairy gold-filled egg because they wanted a quick return on investment.
    Who cares what happens tomorrow!? Today: Soo-ga! Soo-ga! Soo-ga!

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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited September 16
    Richy wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

    OK, but hear me out. What if we make it the Palpatine Family Drama Hour instead?

    Well...it's heavily implied that Palpatine created Anakin. So we really got 9 movies about one goddamn family fucking up the galaxy for across four generations.

    Hot damn, TROS is dumb.

    I thought it was implied that Palpatine's master created Anakin? But then some novelization implies instead the Force created Anakin in reaction to some shit Palpatine's master was doing?

    Palpatine says that his master was so powerful he could create life, but also the original plan by Lucas was for there to be a straight up "I am your father" moment in RotS, but ended up not including it because he thought it would've been a bit much. Then, in one of the Vader comic books (published under Disney, so current canon) Vader has a Force vision of Palpatine doing evil magics at Shmi's stomach, but on twitter they've since said that is not to be taken literally, it's just a Force vision.

    So the real answer is, it's complicated and either true or not depending on how canonical you consider statements on Twitter to be.

    reVerse on
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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    edited September 16
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

    I think the most annoying thing about the entire ST is that they decided Luke Skywalker is the most important part of Star Wars.

    Like, in the other six movies, a Skywalker is the protagonist, but he isn't central to the events of the wider story though he is "the Chosen One" in the prequels. He is central to the schemes of specific individuals, but the Confederacy, the Republic, the Empire and the Rebellion do not care that much about Skywalker specifically. In TFA the opening crawl basically tells us that Luke Skywalker is the main objective of both sides. In the other movies, Skywalker is fighting to help win the war, in the sequels, they're fighting a war to win Skywalker.

    The fact that the third movie is "Rise of Skywalker" really drives this home; instead of The Jedi or The Sith it's now just about this one person c'mon

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    Now, in Rogue One nobody even says the name Skywalker, and that's a good Star Wars movie

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

    I think the most annoying thing about the entire ST is that they decided Luke Skywalker is the most important part of Star Wars.

    Like, in the other six movies, a Skywalker is the protagonist, but he isn't central to the events of the wider story though he is "the Chosen One" in the prequels. He is central to the schemes of specific individuals, but the Confederacy, the Republic, the Empire and the Rebellion do not care that much about Skywalker specifically. In TFA the opening crawl basically tells us that Luke Skywalker is the main objective of both sides. In the other movies, Skywalker is fighting to help win the war, in the sequels, they're fighting a war to win Skywalker.

    The fact that the third movie is "Rise of Skywalker" really drives this home; instead of The Jedi or The Sith it's now just about this one person c'mon

    They are trying to find Skywalker but the conflict is not about Skywalker. He's just a huge symbol of the Republic's victory over the Empire. The war is not about him. The First Order goes and blows up a bunch of planets and then conquers the galaxy after all. They are mostly up to other shit.

  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    edited September 16
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

    I think the most annoying thing about the entire ST is that they decided Luke Skywalker is the most important part of Star Wars.

    Like, in the other six movies, a Skywalker is the protagonist, but he isn't central to the events of the wider story though he is "the Chosen One" in the prequels. He is central to the schemes of specific individuals, but the Confederacy, the Republic, the Empire and the Rebellion do not care that much about Skywalker specifically. In TFA the opening crawl basically tells us that Luke Skywalker is the main objective of both sides. In the other movies, Skywalker is fighting to help win the war, in the sequels, they're fighting a war to win Skywalker.

    The fact that the third movie is "Rise of Skywalker" really drives this home; instead of The Jedi or The Sith it's now just about this one person c'mon

    They are trying to find Skywalker but the conflict is not about Skywalker. He's just a huge symbol of the Republic's victory over the Empire. The war is not about him. The First Order goes and blows up a bunch of planets and then conquers the galaxy after all. They are mostly up to other shit.

    Sure, but the film doesn't treat that as remotely important. It's solely concerned with Leia trying to find Skywalker and the First Order hunting Skywalker. That's why the First Order's destruction of the Republic is such a non-event with the emotional weight of a dry fart.

    e: I do give TLJ credit for throwing the messianic Skywalker idea out the window, but the damage was done tbh

    Dongs Galore on
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    It's not too many ideas. Or not just. It's the wrong ideas.

    Like, if you watch TFA and TLJ and then someone gives you a whiteboard and says "write down everything that needs to happen in the final film", there should be a bunch of stuff on that board that doesn't even come close to appearing in TROS. Things like "Resolve Rey/Finn/Rose love triangle". Things that TROS basically ignores. Instead it throws up random shit like "Bring back Palpatine" or "Go back and retcon Rey's backstory".

    TROS is full of bad ideas that probably go right back to those whiteboards.

    The thing is TLJ is definitely the crux of the story problem (JJ never having a plan aside, or being able to end things, it comes to a head in this movie): there's just nothing at the end of that movie that feels like it needs resolving. It's a nebulous "we will resist the First Order again!" thing, as opposed to Empire which is pretty specific that "Luke needs to complete his training and confront Vader" is the thing we will be doing next and it is in fact the climax of ROTJ.

    Who's fault that is I don't know, but it's weird as hell that it feels like absolutely no one read the script and said "wait what are we doing in the next one if Snoke is dead?" Because TLJ even conclusively wraps up Rey and Kylo's relationship: those two characters at the end of that movie don't have a relationship or a personal conflict anymore, Rey has no destiny to defeat Kylo Ren that matters to her personally. Kylo's story if there's any more to it would be much better resolved as "he dies on his command ship" or something, because the story is absolutely conclusive that he won't be redeemed (which TROS does backflips to bring back into play).

    Luke literally completes his training in Empire by facing Vader and Yoda tells him as much as soon as they talk in RotJ. RotJs plots are setup entirely in RotJ except the rescue

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Jedi and Sith are cool. The Force is cool. People aren't tired of those stories, they're tired of the Skywalker Family Drama Hour. That's why nobody's excited about anything from ST but almost everyone wants a KOTOR movie or show.

    I think the most annoying thing about the entire ST is that they decided Luke Skywalker is the most important part of Star Wars.

    Like, in the other six movies, a Skywalker is the protagonist, but he isn't central to the events of the wider story though he is "the Chosen One" in the prequels. He is central to the schemes of specific individuals, but the Confederacy, the Republic, the Empire and the Rebellion do not care that much about Skywalker specifically. In TFA the opening crawl basically tells us that Luke Skywalker is the main objective of both sides. In the other movies, Skywalker is fighting to help win the war, in the sequels, they're fighting a war to win Skywalker.

    The fact that the third movie is "Rise of Skywalker" really drives this home; instead of The Jedi or The Sith it's now just about this one person c'mon

    They are trying to find Skywalker but the conflict is not about Skywalker. He's just a huge symbol of the Republic's victory over the Empire. The war is not about him. The First Order goes and blows up a bunch of planets and then conquers the galaxy after all. They are mostly up to other shit.

    Sure, but the film doesn't treat that as remotely important. It's solely concerned with Leia trying to find Skywalker and the First Order hunting Skywalker. That's why the First Order's destruction of the Republic is such a non-event with the emotional weight of a dry fart.

    e: I do give TLJ credit for throwing the messianic Skywalker idea out the window, but the damage was done tbh

    TFA does treat it as important. It's just a thing that happens during the film and sets the stage for future films, since the war with the FO hasn't actually started.

    It doesn't land emotionally because the movie is not that well written. It happens to planets we never see before that point and who's importance we don't understand and in a way that makes no sense. So the audience basically watches a big ... something happen in the sky and is like "Wait, what did they just do? And to whom?". That's not the recipe for emotional connection.

    But in terms of their overall goals, the hunt for Skywalker is in large part a sideshow to the things the FO is actually trying to do. Which is also why they don't show a ton of concern for that effort in the next film.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    It's a sign of B-movie writing to just randomly blow up planets without giving people anyone or anything to care about on those planets in the first place. A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic. This is why I've always thought that TFA was an enjoyable but ultimately weak film - it's all flash and no substance. The only reason you care is because of the potential and promise of more to come, much like how you think of that rookie NBA player as better than their washed-up bench counterpart when in terms of actual production they are almost exactly the same.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    I thought The Rise of the Skywalker was going to result in Rey beginning a new order based on Luke’s advocacy for a more balanced practice of the force.

    That would have been really good.

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Why do we need a new order at all? Mastery of the Force is now, "Take a deep breath. You feel that all around you? That's the Force, you got this."

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited September 16
    Why do we need a new order at all? Mastery of the Force is now, "Take a deep breath. You feel that all around you? That's the Force, you got this."

    Mastery of the force has always been that... like... from the very first movie. Diagetically even! Not just in the obvious meta-textual way where the force represents the power of plot but in the text of the movie the main mentor character directly tells this to the protagonist who then uses that knowledge to defeat the bad guy. It’s like.. the central character development for the main character of the first movie.

    But the point of making a new order isn’t related to making “better force users” in terms of ability to use the force because that concept is dumb. Training in the force was never about technical mastery it was about learning to be a good person. Luke skywalker completes his training by getting totally wrecked by Vader. Not because he learned combat skills but because he did not succumb to the dark side. He did not become a bad person.

    So the point of a new order would be to break free from the dogma that each side has created. While the dark side of the force is a necessary aspect of the force, in tune with its counterpart its adherents are a reflection of the toxic concept of Knighthood. And the Jedi aren’t better here, they were that concept of knighthood that the toxicity flowed from. The idea that you can simply repress your negative emotions and become a better man jedi is what produces evil rage monsters.

    This evaluation is very present in the PT even if Lucas did not realize it. And it’s one of the primary things that TLJ synthesizes with the OT in order to make a coherent progression for force users. This type of synthesis has been proposed many times before TFA/TLJ and it was like one of those big fan wishlist items(Grey Jedi!) so its not like this reading came out of left field or should be unfamiliar to the audience.

    it is not a mistake, as an example, that I use toxic to describe dark Jedi. Snoke in TLJ is coded as Hugh Hefner. Both in his dress and his language. When Ren kills him he sees himself as “white knighting” for Rey and then the first thing he does after they kill his minions is neg her. It’s a very clear handing off the reigns of toxic masculinity from one generation to the next while also discussing how our ideals of what a jedi man should be contribute to that toxicity.

    Edit: so we needed a new construction of the Jedi because it’s clear the old construction was not working. It was hurting us and turning us into rage monsters

    Edit 2: this is why the only moment that lands in RoS is the one where Ren throws his lightsaber away. It’s also the only moment that was still in the treverrow script (iirc)

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited September 16
    Quid wrote: »
    I thought The Rise of the Skywalker was going to result in Rey beginning a new order based on Luke’s advocacy for a more balanced practice of the force.

    That would have been really good.

    That would actually require a throughline of all 9 movies, though. We can't have that.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    And a whole new post because the idea that TLJ did not leave any path forward for RoS despite the clear setup for Rey to take the mantle of Jedi and reform it into a path that rejects the patriarchy and makes everyone better really irks me

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

    In what way is that the patriarchy?

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    JFC

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

    In what way is that the patriarchy?

    Do I need to pull out the family tree? Luke couldn't possibly be more patriarchy, he's the grandson of the Imperial patriarch. But Broom Kid isn't playing with a Rey action figure, it's Luke. At best, it set up some Hidden Figures type scenario where Luke is the draw, Rey does the work. Yuck.

    But I've consistently said that Luke ends the movie as a horrible, credit stealing villain, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If a man finally mopping up the milk he spilled years ago is a galactic hero, and the woman that risks her life is in his shadow, we aren't talking about toppling the patriarchy.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

    In what way is that the patriarchy?

    Do I need to pull out the family tree? Luke couldn't possibly be more patriarchy, he's the grandson of the Imperial patriarch. But Broom Kid isn't playing with a Rey action figure, it's Luke. At best, it set up some Hidden Figures type scenario where Luke is the draw, Rey does the work. Yuck.

    But I've consistently said that Luke ends the movie as a horrible, credit stealing villain, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If a man finally mopping up the milk he spilled years ago is a galactic hero, and the woman that risks her life is in his shadow, we aren't talking about toppling the patriarchy.

    I don't see this at all. Luke is one hero but he's not the only hero (there's many of those throughout the movie) and it's Rey who is the foundation of the new Jedi, not Luke. Rey is the one that's right and Luke's entire reason he's been a hermit, his whole shtick, just like Kylo Ren's, is wrong.

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    How do you reject the patriarchy when the last patriarch has turned himself into a galaxy wide deity? Broom kid wasn't wistfully hoping to join up for feminism.

    What?

    Luke is the spark. The movie did not set up a rejection of the patriarchy, it reaffirmed it.

    In what way is that the patriarchy?

    Do I need to pull out the family tree? Luke couldn't possibly be more patriarchy, he's the grandson of the Imperial patriarch. But Broom Kid isn't playing with a Rey action figure, it's Luke. At best, it set up some Hidden Figures type scenario where Luke is the draw, Rey does the work. Yuck.

    But I've consistently said that Luke ends the movie as a horrible, credit stealing villain, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If a man finally mopping up the milk he spilled years ago is a galactic hero, and the woman that risks her life is in his shadow, we aren't talking about toppling the patriarchy.

    TLJ is edited to try and make gender politics issues into Star Wars issues and it fits about as well early episodes of Stargate SG-1 which wanted to do this.

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