I agree Morskittar. As great as the fluff and feel and tone of 40k is when you get right down to the nitty gritty of the story it is a pretty one dimensional affair. That one dimension does happen to be great fun, but it can get tiring if you over expose yourself to it.
The humans are a bunch of Nazis who hate all aliens, the Necron are a bunch of space zombies, the Orks just want to go around fighting, and the Tyranids kill everything. That leaves the Eldar and the Tau.
Trust not in their appearance, for the Eldar are as utterly alien to good, honest men as the vile Tyranids and savage Orks. They are capricious and fickle, attacking without cause or warning. There is no understanding them for there is nothing to understand - they are a random force in the universe. -Imperial Commander Abriel Hume
So that really just leaves the Tau. The worst they do to their conquered enemies is forced sterilization.
I agree Morskittar. As great as the fluff and feel and tone of 40k is when you get right down to the nitty gritty of the story it is a pretty one dimensional affair. That one dimension does happen to be great fun, but it can get tiring if you over expose yourself to it.
I've never seen a giant cock joke in 40k, other than plasma cannons. It's just not as fun.
So the setting doesn't evolve much as time goes on...?
It can't. That's the whole point. The only hope is the Tyranids devour everything like a big ol' immune system, wipe sentience from the galaxy, and let it start over. Otherwise, the polarized conflict between Law and Chaos will tear both realities apart, or blend them into some formless protean mush.
Warhammer, on the other hand, plays with the same concepts on a more personal, less apocalyptic, level. So it allows hope that's actually hopeful.
Hey, I didn't throw vast amounts of money and time at just any commercial, cobbled-together, fantasy setting.
Of course, the tavern wenches usually die in orc attacks, goblin raids, or other such nastiness, but there's always the hope of more tavern wenches, with robust Bavarian curves and cracked mugs of cheap beer. Fantasy indeed.
Hey, I didn't throw vast amounts of money and time at just any commercial, cobbled-together, fantasy setting.
Of course, the tavern wenches usually die in orc attacks, goblin raids, or other such nastiness, but there's always the hope of more tavern wenches, with robust Bavarian curves and cracked mugs of cheap beer. Fantasy indeed.
Can't settle down with a corpse. But I think that's where Warcraft lore breaks from merely carbon-copying Warhammer. It really wants its races to get along, breed and make half-elves and half-orcs. Everyone gets humanized. Even the most evil among the demonic races (sans Nathrezim) have goody cousins and the Horde in its current incarnation is no less virtuous than the Alliance. I can't tell if this is fantasy's maturation or dissolution.
One thing to remember about the Warhammer 40k fluff is that every race is the best from it's own standpoint.
Chaos is strongest. It can be anywhere, influence anything, and tears at the seems of reality. It has seen into the future, and in this future nothing exists that does not bow to chaos undivided. It is destined to win.
Orcs are the strongest. They control so many planets that the mighty imperium is but a blip on the radar. If the orcs ever wished to, they could wipe out all the other racies in no time.
Necrons are the strongest. They've controlled the destiny of the universe, single handedly pushed back chaos, and have an immessurable number of immortal, unstoppable killing machines.
etc. etc. etc.
So the eldar fluff implies that they can see the future basically created the Tau Empire. Then the necron fluff implies that they are the great architects of existance, controlling everything about the Imperium of Man. The Tyranid fluff implies they were the reapers that wiped existance clean so many ages ago, and their vast might is poised to do so again. All the fluff should be taken with a grain of salt, because it's much better when you realize they are stories about half-truths and legends, not actual (40k) fact.
All the fluff should be taken with a grain of salt, because it's much better when you realize they are stories about half-truths and legends, not actual (40k) fact.
The internet will never accept this. In fact Im surprised this sentence even made it onto the forums and didn't get scrambled, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in denial ;-).
40k might be a more appealing setting if it would fucking advance now and then.
Stagnation is a pretty huge part of the Imperium's concept, so there's not really going to be any advances there. I quite like it staying the same, in a way, I'd much rather see the current setting filled out rather than some advancement into the future.
I long for the day that pre-Heresy stuff gets some love in model/rule form. Obviously I'm always glad of Heresy stuff too. I want to fight defiant human planets with a Pre-Heresy Angron and his World Eaters.
I still can't believe anyone was shocked that guys with names like that turned evil.
Next to guys like the Blood Angels, Dark Hands and Death Spectres they don't sound so bad.
I think there could be hope in the 40k universe, but GW don't seem eager to bring it out because the hopeful bits don't explode so much - it's such a vast universe that you don't really see the details, the feral humans who have a capacity for advancement or the more Star Trek-ish rogue traders. Slim, but I believe it's in there somewhere.
And I to would like to see a release of Warhammer 30,000, recreating the Horus Heresy with some of the old Marks 2 through 6 suits? Yes please.
40k might be a more appealing setting if it would fucking advance now and then.
Stagnation is a pretty huge part of the Imperium's concept, so there's not really going to be any advances there. I quite like it staying the same, in a way, I'd much rather see the current setting filled out rather than some advancement into the future.
I long for the day that pre-Heresy stuff gets some love in model/rule form. Obviously I'm always glad of Heresy stuff too. I want to fight defiant human planets with a Pre-Heresy Angron and his World Eaters.
I dunno. I always assumed 40K won't advance because GW is afraid they'll lose customers. I don't think it has anything to do with the story. The general idea is people can't take the change and will stop playing if they advance it. It will cease to be what it is and become something new, which they don't want.
Didn't rogue trader deal with pre heresy stuff? At least indirectly?
On an entirely different note does any one feel that the fluff and feel of warhammher has become too bland and "kid friendly"?
Comparing the old realms of chaos books to the stuff that comes out now I see a huge difference in the way the material is handled. Back before third edition codex always came with lots of well written, dark, and adult fluff. Some of the shit is so dark and graphic in the second edition chaos codex and RoC: Slaves to Darkness it almost makes me think this game really is not intended for children. That shit was fucking awesome.
The stuff that comes out now seems to derivative and watered down compared to the old stuff.
Maybe it's just me. :P
Shoggoth on
0
Options
Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
edited May 2007
If I ran 40K fluff, I would have everything perched portentously on the end of year 999. The Eye of Terror is in turmoil, Farseers are beset by visions, something is going wrong with the Golden Throne, then the clock ticks over to 000 m41 and... nothing much happens.
It'd be nice to see something monumentous happen. For example the emporer wakes or something crazy. I mean, they can advance the story in any way without killing off a race or two and I'd be fine with pretty much anything that could happen.
There is MUCH MUCH in the way of change that could transpire without totally upsetting the backround the game is built on.
Shoggoth on
0
Options
Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited May 2007
I want to see fucking Commander Farsight come back and fuck someone's shit up.
Where the hell are you finding all this lore at? I would prefer not to have to buy the books till I get some insight in it. My boss plays eldar and reading the tau codex intrigues me, The imperium just irritates me, people who fear new things bug me. But I would like to do some more readin about the histories and stuff but the codex's seem to just contain enough to annoy my need for information. Is there anything else I can read on? Hell both warhammers interest me.
But warhammer should really stop stealing its ideas from Blizzard, thats just rude.
GW's website is probably the best central location, but still pretty light.
Really, it's all in the books. Some of which aren't even available anymore, so it's more of spoken word handed down from the old-timers. It's often contradictory, too, so people will tell you different things based on what they've read; even near-concurrently released products.
It's rather like asking "where can I read about Europe. All of it. Since the beginning". You just need to pick a point and dive in headfirst. I linked to some Warhammer guides (background and book) on the last page or so, which would be a decent place to start there. For 40k, just grab a novel that sounds good or pick up the big rulebook if you have some cash to spare. That gives a decent overview.
Where the hell are you finding all this lore at? I would prefer not to have to buy the books till I get some insight in it. My boss plays eldar and reading the tau codex intrigues me, The imperium just irritates me, people who fear new things bug me. But I would like to do some more readin about the histories and stuff but the codex's seem to just contain enough to annoy my need for information. Is there anything else I can read on? Hell both warhammers interest me.
But warhammer should really stop stealing its ideas from Blizzard, thats just rude.
You really have to read the older OOP stuff to find most of the good fluff.
Where the hell are you finding all this lore at? I would prefer not to have to buy the books till I get some insight in it. My boss plays eldar and reading the tau codex intrigues me, The imperium just irritates me, people who fear new things bug me. But I would like to do some more readin about the histories and stuff but the codex's seem to just contain enough to annoy my need for information. Is there anything else I can read on? Hell both warhammers interest me.
But warhammer should really stop stealing its ideas from Blizzard, thats just rude.
In a pinch, Wikipedia is adequate for catching up on most of the major events.
Where the hell are you finding all this lore at? I would prefer not to have to buy the books till I get some insight in it. My boss plays eldar and reading the tau codex intrigues me, The imperium just irritates me, people who fear new things bug me. But I would like to do some more readin about the histories and stuff but the codex's seem to just contain enough to annoy my need for information. Is there anything else I can read on? Hell both warhammers interest me.
But warhammer should really stop stealing its ideas from Blizzard, thats just rude.
In a pinch, Wikipedia is adequate for catching up on most of the major events.
Spent the last couple days reading all of wikipedia's 40K entries and they seem to have a pretty good overview.
I agree with Shoggoth - it would be nice if they shook up the universe. You can be dark, pessimistic, yet still have depth. The Tau were a good start, but it needs something momentous. Like if the Tau (with Eldar help) started carving out larger chunks of the Imperium, a new Tyranid hive fleet appeared worse than all the others, the Orcs started a major Waaaagh... and then a weakened Emperor awoke to reunite the Imperium and start a new crusade to regain its lost glory. Of course, Chaos wouldn't just let the Emperor start reclaiming the universe...
Asuma on
"Extremism is so easy. You've got your position, and that's it. It doesn't take much thought. And when you go far enough to the right, you meet the same idiots coming around from the left." -- Clint Eastwood ***
Where the hell are you finding all this lore at? I would prefer not to have to buy the books till I get some insight in it. My boss plays eldar and reading the tau codex intrigues me, The imperium just irritates me, people who fear new things bug me. But I would like to do some more readin about the histories and stuff but the codex's seem to just contain enough to annoy my need for information. Is there anything else I can read on? Hell both warhammers interest me.
But warhammer should really stop stealing its ideas from Blizzard, thats just rude.
In a pinch, Wikipedia is adequate for catching up on most of the major events.
Spent the last couple days reading all of wikipedia's 40K entries and they seem to have a pretty good overview.
I agree with Shoggoth - it would be nice if they shook up the universe. You can be dark, pessimistic, yet still have depth. The Tau were a good start, but it needs something momentous. Like if the Tau (with Eldar help) started carving out larger chunks of the Imperium, a new Tyranid hive fleet appeared worse than all the others, the Orcs started a major Waaaagh... and then a weakened Emperor awoke to reunite the Imperium and start a new crusade to regain its lost glory. Of course, Chaos wouldn't just let the Emperor start reclaiming the universe...
Honestly the best way to shake up the universe is have somebody pull the plug on the Golden Throne, then have multiple people claim to be the Emperor reborn (or create a revelation that its not the Emperor there at all).
They've done the new tyranid fleet and orc waaaagh things before.
There's a "fluff bible" that floats around the internet with a bunch of the old Second Edition fluff; the second ed codexes had a lot more story and background material. There's also a short-story collection called "Let the Galaxy Burn" that has an awful lot of good stuff, although it's all from an Imperial perspective.
Ah I was afraid of OOP stuff, I've gone through wikipedia fairly heavily but so much is left undetailed and it drives me up the wall. But I am somewhat obsessive about knowing all their is to know about a subject to so I will just have to cope. FOR THE HORDE!!!!
There are a couple of forums out there that have sections purely for fluff questions/discussions, if you are looking for somebody to fill in the blanks. I spent far, far too much time arguing on such boards.
Im just looking for blanks filled. Like it seems the Emperor was a pretty sharp guy and what has happened is a total and complete bastardization of what he was trying to accomplish.
You might want to check out the Horus Heresy novel series that's currently in progress. It fills in some of the blanks in the Heresy, and gives some insight into the thought processes of Horus (and a brief glimpse into the Emperor's).
Posts
Trust not in their appearance, for the Eldar are as utterly alien to good, honest men as the vile Tyranids and savage Orks. They are capricious and fickle, attacking without cause or warning. There is no understanding them for there is nothing to understand - they are a random force in the universe. -Imperial Commander Abriel Hume
So that really just leaves the Tau. The worst they do to their conquered enemies is forced sterilization.
I've never seen a giant cock joke in 40k, other than plasma cannons. It's just not as fun.
It can't. That's the whole point. The only hope is the Tyranids devour everything like a big ol' immune system, wipe sentience from the galaxy, and let it start over. Otherwise, the polarized conflict between Law and Chaos will tear both realities apart, or blend them into some formless protean mush.
Warhammer, on the other hand, plays with the same concepts on a more personal, less apocalyptic, level. So it allows hope that's actually hopeful.
Hey, I didn't throw vast amounts of money and time at just any commercial, cobbled-together, fantasy setting.
Of course, the tavern wenches usually die in orc attacks, goblin raids, or other such nastiness, but there's always the hope of more tavern wenches, with robust Bavarian curves and cracked mugs of cheap beer. Fantasy indeed.
Like if the Tau empire expanded like crazy.
Aren't they resistant to corruption by chaos so they would have less of a chance of going completely evil?
I have no idea since I only ever experienced them via demo.
All I know is they are like how we used to play CG in dungeons and dragons.
And they actually have allies (those berserker thingies) that are not demon monsters.
Can't settle down with a corpse. But I think that's where Warcraft lore breaks from merely carbon-copying Warhammer. It really wants its races to get along, breed and make half-elves and half-orcs. Everyone gets humanized. Even the most evil among the demonic races (sans Nathrezim) have goody cousins and the Horde in its current incarnation is no less virtuous than the Alliance. I can't tell if this is fantasy's maturation or dissolution.
Chaos is strongest. It can be anywhere, influence anything, and tears at the seems of reality. It has seen into the future, and in this future nothing exists that does not bow to chaos undivided. It is destined to win.
Orcs are the strongest. They control so many planets that the mighty imperium is but a blip on the radar. If the orcs ever wished to, they could wipe out all the other racies in no time.
Necrons are the strongest. They've controlled the destiny of the universe, single handedly pushed back chaos, and have an immessurable number of immortal, unstoppable killing machines.
etc. etc. etc.
So the eldar fluff implies that they can see the future basically created the Tau Empire. Then the necron fluff implies that they are the great architects of existance, controlling everything about the Imperium of Man. The Tyranid fluff implies they were the reapers that wiped existance clean so many ages ago, and their vast might is poised to do so again. All the fluff should be taken with a grain of salt, because it's much better when you realize they are stories about half-truths and legends, not actual (40k) fact.
Only as much as they need when they want to peddle new minis.
Stagnation is a pretty huge part of the Imperium's concept, so there's not really going to be any advances there. I quite like it staying the same, in a way, I'd much rather see the current setting filled out rather than some advancement into the future.
I long for the day that pre-Heresy stuff gets some love in model/rule form. Obviously I'm always glad of Heresy stuff too. I want to fight defiant human planets with a Pre-Heresy Angron and his World Eaters.
SoogaGames Blog
I still can't believe anyone was shocked that guys with names like that turned evil.
I need to find that bit that somebody wrote about a chaos commander being confused as to which legions/chapters were on which side.
Next to guys like the Blood Angels, Dark Hands and Death Spectres they don't sound so bad.
I think there could be hope in the 40k universe, but GW don't seem eager to bring it out because the hopeful bits don't explode so much - it's such a vast universe that you don't really see the details, the feral humans who have a capacity for advancement or the more Star Trek-ish rogue traders. Slim, but I believe it's in there somewhere.
And I to would like to see a release of Warhammer 30,000, recreating the Horus Heresy with some of the old Marks 2 through 6 suits? Yes please.
I'd start playing again in a heartbeat.
Tau empire expanded 166% in its last campaign.
That's a fuckton of ground.
I dunno. I always assumed 40K won't advance because GW is afraid they'll lose customers. I don't think it has anything to do with the story. The general idea is people can't take the change and will stop playing if they advance it. It will cease to be what it is and become something new, which they don't want.
Didn't rogue trader deal with pre heresy stuff? At least indirectly?
On an entirely different note does any one feel that the fluff and feel of warhammher has become too bland and "kid friendly"?
Comparing the old realms of chaos books to the stuff that comes out now I see a huge difference in the way the material is handled. Back before third edition codex always came with lots of well written, dark, and adult fluff. Some of the shit is so dark and graphic in the second edition chaos codex and RoC: Slaves to Darkness it almost makes me think this game really is not intended for children. That shit was fucking awesome.
The stuff that comes out now seems to derivative and watered down compared to the old stuff.
Maybe it's just me. :P
It'd be nice to see something monumentous happen. For example the emporer wakes or something crazy. I mean, they can advance the story in any way without killing off a race or two and I'd be fine with pretty much anything that could happen.
There is MUCH MUCH in the way of change that could transpire without totally upsetting the backround the game is built on.
At the very least.
That's a good start though.
There were talks that he might become some sort of Tau/Necron hybrid.
I went
But warhammer should really stop stealing its ideas from Blizzard, thats just rude.
Really, it's all in the books. Some of which aren't even available anymore, so it's more of spoken word handed down from the old-timers. It's often contradictory, too, so people will tell you different things based on what they've read; even near-concurrently released products.
It's rather like asking "where can I read about Europe. All of it. Since the beginning". You just need to pick a point and dive in headfirst. I linked to some Warhammer guides (background and book) on the last page or so, which would be a decent place to start there. For 40k, just grab a novel that sounds good or pick up the big rulebook if you have some cash to spare. That gives a decent overview.
You really have to read the older OOP stuff to find most of the good fluff.
Until you consider how much space they occupied to begin with. Which is to say almost none.
In a pinch, Wikipedia is adequate for catching up on most of the major events.
Spent the last couple days reading all of wikipedia's 40K entries and they seem to have a pretty good overview.
I agree with Shoggoth - it would be nice if they shook up the universe. You can be dark, pessimistic, yet still have depth. The Tau were a good start, but it needs something momentous. Like if the Tau (with Eldar help) started carving out larger chunks of the Imperium, a new Tyranid hive fleet appeared worse than all the others, the Orcs started a major Waaaagh... and then a weakened Emperor awoke to reunite the Imperium and start a new crusade to regain its lost glory. Of course, Chaos wouldn't just let the Emperor start reclaiming the universe...
Honestly the best way to shake up the universe is have somebody pull the plug on the Golden Throne, then have multiple people claim to be the Emperor reborn (or create a revelation that its not the Emperor there at all).
They've done the new tyranid fleet and orc waaaagh things before.
You might want to check out the Horus Heresy novel series that's currently in progress. It fills in some of the blanks in the Heresy, and gives some insight into the thought processes of Horus (and a brief glimpse into the Emperor's).