You might want to check out the Horus Heresy novel series that's currently in progress. It fills in some of the blanks in the Heresy, and gives some insight into the thought processes of Horus (and a brief glimpse into the Emperor's).
Though I must admit I'm light on the fluff, but I always wondered if everything that's happened is entirely accordingly to the Emperor's plan. He knew that if he did nothing, humanity would eventually spawn a warp god of it's collective dark impuses. It happened to the orc, eldar and at least two other races.
So instead of just waiting for it to happen, guide the process so he could become a warp god of his choosing. A 'positive' warp god. A force of Order. Look at it this way, though he is supposedly crippled in his golden throne, the Imperium the galaxy has effectively been in status quo for thousands of years. How could it continue to do that if the Emperor were truly impotent?
Perhaps one day, without fanfare, the Emperor will simply ascend. Then he will begin his crusade to redeem the galaxy in earnest.
It's not hit on in modern background, but the old stuff was pretty clear that the Emperor made one major mistake, based on that most fundamental of human fears; he probably should have died.
If he had, his spirit, already bouyed and anchored by the faith of billions, would have formed the seed of a new warp god; a representation of human spirit and will. Just like ihopius said. His soul bound to a decaying corpse, though, keeps everything stagnant and further slipping to Chaos. Inquisitor (now: Draco) suggested that this state was driving the Emperor insane, and he's now at conflict with himself and with fractured and various selves.
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edited May 2007
I'm not heavy on the fluff either, having just gotten into the setting through the original DoW a year or two ago, but it seems like the cool, logical way for 40K to end would be - X number of thousands of years in the future, Abaddon is finally standing on the charred and smoking craters of Terra. Victory is his at last. All the traitor legions and maybe even the gods themselves have emerged to take part in this glorious day. There's no one else - the Orks and Tyranids have long since exterminated each other, as have the Necrons and Eldar. (Maybe something grimly ironic has happened to the Tau, like being eaten by a giant Katchem_Ash.) At any rate, there are no loyal legions on the way, no help from the stars. He ascends the golden throne, plunges his sword into the Emperor's chest -
- and everything within a hundred light years is disintegrated in a flash of white light.
Er. Not that I've thought about this or anything, because that would be hella nerdy.
Man, you can't have the Emperor wake up. He has to be stuck on the Golden Throne, it just makes the Imperium so much more awesome. If he came back and was all conquering I think you'd lose a lot. I'd be against any sort of background changes that vastly change any of the armies too. So let's say they decide to turn Dark Angels traitor, think about how that's going to affect a whole bunch of players. Even something like killing off a special character (although I believe this happened, Eldrad Ulthran?) means someone's left with a model that suddenly lacks punch. Sure you can say you're playing before that event happened but too much timeline just means you'll be having arguements about whether it's possible for Character A and Character B to have met on the battlefield. I know there are rules for a few historical characters out there, Solar Marchius is one if I remember rightly, but this would be a different kettle of fish.
At the end of the day it's a setting for a wargame, not a wargame based around a setting.
See the funny thing in my mind is, it didn't even REALLY start out as a wargame. It was a much more RPG/D&D style game when it started. I didn't play in the ropguetrader days, and to be honest I haven't even played that much WH40k but it seems to me that a fair amount of change has gone on.
The dark angels won't turn traitor because it makes GW more money than if they did. I suppose yes, a lot of people would be mad as well, true. They don't sell squats anymore because they feel not enough people played them and were silly.
If the plot is altered in WH40K it's usually motivated by money rather than logical story factors. They've killed off whole races in the past.
I think just freezing the backround in place is a silly thing to do , like D&D you're free to run your games in whatever time frame you want. You can say, turn the dark angels traitors and still run a game from when they weren't. Of course you'd have to invent your own rules, and you couldn't field the army at a GW torunament. But common, why does WH40K have to freeze their plot in place? It has close to enough fluff as most pen and paper RPG's if not more, and they change their shit all the time.
I just don't understand why more people don't look at WH40K like an RPG, in that it's a maliable system in which you are free to let your imagination run wild. Invent your own rules, characters, stories ect.
At the end of the day it's a setting for a wargame, not a wargame based around a setting.
Isn't it both?
You know, I think it differs from person to person. When I played, I played because I loved the fluff; so did all my friends.
Don't get me wrong, I'm the same. It's the fluff that's kept me playing, rather than the game itself, for sure.
Shoggoth: I had a temporary mind slip there, you're right about Rogue Trader and 40k's origins and make a lot of good points concerning the squats and all. I guess the main reason you don't see as much homebrewing as in something like D&D is the competitive nature of the game. Sure a lot of us just play for fun but I'd still be wary of letting an opponent use a character he's statted up himself. Perhaps there's more of a market for impartial players creating a scenario with new characters/units/rules for others to play. I know there was a lot of this going on online for Necromunda when I played with a small group and we used a few net-scenarios that turned out pretty well. I was lucky in that the group was made up of decent guys who were more up for having some fun games rather than ensuring they won.
I am really looking forward to the 40K RPG though, since I think thats the best hope for expanding the setting, in much the way the new edition of Warhammer RPG and its attendant books have added even more depth than there was before.
It's not hit on in modern background, but the old stuff was pretty clear that the Emperor made one major mistake, based on that most fundamental of human fears; he probably should have died.
If he had, his spirit, already bouyed and anchored by the faith of billions, would have formed the seed of a new warp god; a representation of human spirit and will.
But he told people not to worship him, the Word Bearers turned renegade for that very reason (their God basically telling them to tear down their monuments). The Imperial Cult didn't arise until a hundred years or so after his death - if he had died, he would have just been dead (unless the various souls of the Shaman who died to create him were able to repeat the act).
As for the Imperium being excessively bleak, again that is why I like the Tau - not because they are a beacon of hopefulness in a dark universe but because the change in scale allows the Imperium to show its more human side. Because previously the universe had focused primarily on Mankind's struggle against Chaos and an All Consuming Swarm, emphasis is on the Inquisitors and the extreme measures that have to be taken to safeguard humanity's very souls. With the Tau suddenly the beaurocrats and diplomats get their time in the sun and we find that the Imperium isn't really as bad a place as we thought for the many colonists out on the fringe and that it can be downright sneaky if it needs to rather than putting the eyeliner on and nuking themselves for their own good.
I am really looking forward to the 40K RPG though, since I think thats the best hope for expanding the setting, in much the way the new edition of Warhammer RPG and its attendant books have added even more depth than there was before.
The second game anyway, not sure how good Dark Heresy will be on that front since its focused on Inquisitors - still, how you get a party with technically unlimited power to work might be interesting
The second game anyway, not sure how good Dark Heresy will be on that front since its focused on Inquisitors - still, how you get a party with technically unlimited power to work might be interesting
Were it any other high-powered game I'd answer "moral choices", but inquisitors can just call Exterminatus. :P
The second game anyway, not sure how good Dark Heresy will be on that front since its focused on Inquisitors - still, how you get a party with technically unlimited power to work might be interesting
Were it any other high-powered game I'd answer "moral choices", but inquisitors can just call Exterminatus. :P
Well I mean, theoretically any Inquisitor has the power to fuck with the High Lords of Terra, Exterminatus Terra itself, declare the Adeptus Mechanicus heretical, or decide the Ultramarines need a good purge. The reason they don't is because every other Inquisitor in the Imperium would come down and mess them up.
Until your like, three centuries old or so and no longer regarded as a young whippersnapper, your peers are likely to get ticked if you go off doing anything too messy with your nigh unlimited powers.
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Edit: do you know what the books are named? I found a few different ones.
Horus Rising
False Gods
Galaxy in Flames
The Flight of the Eisenstein
Fulgrim (due out end of july).
No problem, PM me if you want any other book suggestions, or forum suggestions for fluff discussion.
Though I must admit I'm light on the fluff, but I always wondered if everything that's happened is entirely accordingly to the Emperor's plan. He knew that if he did nothing, humanity would eventually spawn a warp god of it's collective dark impuses. It happened to the orc, eldar and at least two other races.
So instead of just waiting for it to happen, guide the process so he could become a warp god of his choosing. A 'positive' warp god. A force of Order. Look at it this way, though he is supposedly crippled in his golden throne, the Imperium the galaxy has effectively been in status quo for thousands of years. How could it continue to do that if the Emperor were truly impotent?
Perhaps one day, without fanfare, the Emperor will simply ascend. Then he will begin his crusade to redeem the galaxy in earnest.
If he had, his spirit, already bouyed and anchored by the faith of billions, would have formed the seed of a new warp god; a representation of human spirit and will. Just like ihopius said. His soul bound to a decaying corpse, though, keeps everything stagnant and further slipping to Chaos. Inquisitor (now: Draco) suggested that this state was driving the Emperor insane, and he's now at conflict with himself and with fractured and various selves.
- and everything within a hundred light years is disintegrated in a flash of white light.
Er. Not that I've thought about this or anything, because that would be hella nerdy.
At the end of the day it's a setting for a wargame, not a wargame based around a setting.
SoogaGames Blog
They're fucking Rangers man.
Isn't it both?
You know, I think it differs from person to person. When I played, I played because I loved the fluff; so did all my friends.
The dark angels won't turn traitor because it makes GW more money than if they did. I suppose yes, a lot of people would be mad as well, true. They don't sell squats anymore because they feel not enough people played them and were silly.
If the plot is altered in WH40K it's usually motivated by money rather than logical story factors. They've killed off whole races in the past.
I think just freezing the backround in place is a silly thing to do , like D&D you're free to run your games in whatever time frame you want. You can say, turn the dark angels traitors and still run a game from when they weren't. Of course you'd have to invent your own rules, and you couldn't field the army at a GW torunament. But common, why does WH40K have to freeze their plot in place? It has close to enough fluff as most pen and paper RPG's if not more, and they change their shit all the time.
I just don't understand why more people don't look at WH40K like an RPG, in that it's a maliable system in which you are free to let your imagination run wild. Invent your own rules, characters, stories ect.
Shoggoth: I had a temporary mind slip there, you're right about Rogue Trader and 40k's origins and make a lot of good points concerning the squats and all. I guess the main reason you don't see as much homebrewing as in something like D&D is the competitive nature of the game. Sure a lot of us just play for fun but I'd still be wary of letting an opponent use a character he's statted up himself. Perhaps there's more of a market for impartial players creating a scenario with new characters/units/rules for others to play. I know there was a lot of this going on online for Necromunda when I played with a small group and we used a few net-scenarios that turned out pretty well. I was lucky in that the group was made up of decent guys who were more up for having some fun games rather than ensuring they won.
SoogaGames Blog
Yep. Nice guy. I recently broke his record for time spent working at that store now that I've been back while in school again.
But he told people not to worship him, the Word Bearers turned renegade for that very reason (their God basically telling them to tear down their monuments). The Imperial Cult didn't arise until a hundred years or so after his death - if he had died, he would have just been dead (unless the various souls of the Shaman who died to create him were able to repeat the act).
As for the Imperium being excessively bleak, again that is why I like the Tau - not because they are a beacon of hopefulness in a dark universe but because the change in scale allows the Imperium to show its more human side. Because previously the universe had focused primarily on Mankind's struggle against Chaos and an All Consuming Swarm, emphasis is on the Inquisitors and the extreme measures that have to be taken to safeguard humanity's very souls. With the Tau suddenly the beaurocrats and diplomats get their time in the sun and we find that the Imperium isn't really as bad a place as we thought for the many colonists out on the fringe and that it can be downright sneaky if it needs to rather than putting the eyeliner on and nuking themselves for their own good.
The second game anyway, not sure how good Dark Heresy will be on that front since its focused on Inquisitors - still, how you get a party with technically unlimited power to work might be interesting
Were it any other high-powered game I'd answer "moral choices", but inquisitors can just call Exterminatus. :P
Well I mean, theoretically any Inquisitor has the power to fuck with the High Lords of Terra, Exterminatus Terra itself, declare the Adeptus Mechanicus heretical, or decide the Ultramarines need a good purge. The reason they don't is because every other Inquisitor in the Imperium would come down and mess them up.
Until your like, three centuries old or so and no longer regarded as a young whippersnapper, your peers are likely to get ticked if you go off doing anything too messy with your nigh unlimited powers.
SoogaGames Blog