I find the idea that TLJ does not adequately follow up TFA to be rather confusing. TLJ plays right in the space that TFA creates. It see that Kylo is an overt look at millennial online neo-nazi's and explores what that means for Kylo. It takes Rey's status as the fan insert and gives her the most obvious plot for that sort of character. She meets her hero and finds him wanting. It looks at Finn's desperate neutrality and explores centrist "whataboutism" and why someone like that might become radicalized.
Further so many of the(truly) bad stuff about TLJ are directly from TFA that many missed. Are you angry that the Resistence was reduced to basically nothing? Go back to the control room scenes in TFA and you'll see they state that outright. Are you mad Finn still only cares about Rey? I'm sorry that's where TFA left his character. He lies and almost gets the resistance killed to get on the mission to save Rey and only agrees to sabotage Skywalker base when he has literally no choice. Then he spends the last ten minutes knocked out. Are you mad that Luke has become kind of a dirtbag? That's on TFA. There was never going to be a reason that Luke gave up that isn't bad for him.
Then again I'm pretty forgiving of most of the creative choices in RoS and mostly mad about it because of how wasteful and poorly done everything is.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I find the idea that TLJ does not adequately follow up TFA to be rather confusing. TLJ plays right in the space that TFA creates. It see that Kylo is an overt look at millennial online neo-nazi's and explores what that means for Kylo. It takes Rey's status as the fan insert and gives her the most obvious plot for that sort of character. She meets her hero and finds him wanting. It looks at Finn's desperate neutrality and explores centrist "whataboutism" and why someone like that might become radicalized.
Further so many of the(truly) bad stuff about TLJ are directly from TFA that many missed. Are you angry that the Resistence was reduced to basically nothing? Go back to the control room scenes in TFA and you'll see they state that outright. Are you mad Finn still only cares about Rey? I'm sorry that's where TFA left his character. He lies and almost gets the resistance killed to get on the mission to save Rey and only agrees to sabotage Skywalker base when he has literally no choice. Then he spends the last ten minutes knocked out. Are you mad that Luke has become kind of a dirtbag? That's on TFA. There was never going to be a reason that Luke gave up that isn't bad for him.
Then again I'm pretty forgiving of most of the creative choices in RoS and mostly mad about it because of how wasteful and poorly done everything is.
We can have this argument again if you want. But trust me, its not worth it. It really comes down to differing ideas of what people want from Star Wars. Neither is wrong.
I find the idea that TLJ does not adequately follow up TFA to be rather confusing. TLJ plays right in the space that TFA creates. It see that Kylo is an overt look at millennial online neo-nazi's and explores what that means for Kylo. It takes Rey's status as the fan insert and gives her the most obvious plot for that sort of character. She meets her hero and finds him wanting. It looks at Finn's desperate neutrality and explores centrist "whataboutism" and why someone like that might become radicalized.
Further so many of the(truly) bad stuff about TLJ are directly from TFA that many missed. Are you angry that the Resistence was reduced to basically nothing? Go back to the control room scenes in TFA and you'll see they state that outright. Are you mad Finn still only cares about Rey? I'm sorry that's where TFA left his character. He lies and almost gets the resistance killed to get on the mission to save Rey and only agrees to sabotage Skywalker base when he has literally no choice. Then he spends the last ten minutes knocked out. Are you mad that Luke has become kind of a dirtbag? That's on TFA. There was never going to be a reason that Luke gave up that isn't bad for him.
Then again I'm pretty forgiving of most of the creative choices in RoS and mostly mad about it because of how wasteful and poorly done everything is.
We can have this argument again if you want. But trust me, its not worth it. It really comes down to differing ideas of what people want from Star Wars. Neither is wrong.
The thing about it is that nothing I have said is about either movies quality. Its an attempt at dispassionate descriptions of what literally happens in each movie. I find it interesting that these discussions often devolve into discussions about whether each movie is the "correct" sequel to the one before it. Its interesting because that isn't really a discussion of each films quality. Well, I think its interesting.
EDIT-Anyway don't mind me I don't really have a point. I'm just bored.
nightmarenny on
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
I find the idea that TLJ does not adequately follow up TFA to be rather confusing. TLJ plays right in the space that TFA creates. It see that Kylo is an overt look at millennial online neo-nazi's and explores what that means for Kylo. It takes Rey's status as the fan insert and gives her the most obvious plot for that sort of character. She meets her hero and finds him wanting. It looks at Finn's desperate neutrality and explores centrist "whataboutism" and why someone like that might become radicalized.
Further so many of the(truly) bad stuff about TLJ are directly from TFA that many missed. Are you angry that the Resistence was reduced to basically nothing? Go back to the control room scenes in TFA and you'll see they state that outright. Are you mad Finn still only cares about Rey? I'm sorry that's where TFA left his character. He lies and almost gets the resistance killed to get on the mission to save Rey and only agrees to sabotage Skywalker base when he has literally no choice. Then he spends the last ten minutes knocked out. Are you mad that Luke has become kind of a dirtbag? That's on TFA. There was never going to be a reason that Luke gave up that isn't bad for him.
Then again I'm pretty forgiving of most of the creative choices in RoS and mostly mad about it because of how wasteful and poorly done everything is.
We can have this argument again if you want. But trust me, its not worth it. It really comes down to differing ideas of what people want from Star Wars. Neither is wrong.
The thing about it is that nothing I have said is about either movies quality. Its an attempt at dispassionate descriptions of what literally happens in each movie. I find it interesting that these discussions often devolve into discussions about whether each movie is the "correct" sequel to the one before it. Its interesting because that isn't really a discussion of each films quality. Well, I think its interesting.
I agree with you. I'm not saying one is correct or whatever. I'm just saying there is a valid reason to think that TFA left different path(s) for TLJ to have taken.
- The resistance was minimal in TFA, yes. But TLJ could have time jumped with Leia having gained support after the Hosnian tragedy.
- Finn realized he was wrong only caring about Rey by the end of TFA. No reason that had to continue. And honestly TLJ didn't continue that. Finn had growth of a different kind which I think was actually pretty good. But it wasn't the only story that could have been told about Finn as a result of TFA.
- Luke being out of the game for years could have been resolved in a number of ways from TFA. Him giving up and abandoning his friends, by choice, was not the only option TFA left.
Again, this argument has been had multiple times across multiple iterations of this thread. Its like bad poetry, its just repeating itself.
Finn did not in any way come to the conclusion that he was wrong for caring only about Rey at the end of TFA. That's sort of what is interesting here. That's something I've heard a lot and it is objectively wrong. There is nothing in the end of TFA that even implies that. So why do people believe it? No idea but I find it interesting.
But yes TLJ could have written those things out or changed it but like I said the thing I find interesting isn't the argument is not whether anything is good but that people see TLJ as not being a good sequel to TFA because they view it as retconning things that absolutely were canon in TFA.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Finn did not in any way come to the conclusion that he was wrong for caring only about Rey at the end of TFA. That's sort of what is interesting here. That's something I've heard a lot and it is objectively wrong. There is nothing in the end of TFA that even implies that. So why do people believe it? No idea but I find it interesting.
But yes TLJ could have written those things out or changed it but like I said the thing I find interesting isn't the argument is not whether anything is good but that people see TLJ as not being a good sequel to TFA because they view it as retconning things that absolutely were canon in TFA.
The bolded is not a common complaint about TLJ at all. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen that complaint around here.
Finn did not in any way come to the conclusion that he was wrong for caring only about Rey at the end of TFA. That's sort of what is interesting here. That's something I've heard a lot and it is objectively wrong. There is nothing in the end of TFA that even implies that. So why do people believe it? No idea but I find it interesting.
But yes TLJ could have written those things out or changed it but like I said the thing I find interesting isn't the argument is not whether anything is good but that people see TLJ as not being a good sequel to TFA because they view it as retconning things that absolutely were canon in TFA.
You're right here, though. I had it backwards from TLJ. In TFA, he learns to care about someone else and not just escaping danger. Sort of the same arc Han went through in ANH. In TLJ he learns to expand that care and love outwards and the correct way to focus it.
JedocIn the scupperswith the staggers and jagsRegistered Userregular
I figure the Empire would start a new calendar and then the New Republic would roll back to the old calendar in an attempt to shore up legitimacy. Like how Napoleon was all "Okay, you idiots, it's 1806 again. Let's all pretend that never happened."
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
In honor of celebration weekend, I am am reminded that JJ managed to make the worst looking movie in the franchise, cut John Williams score all to hell, had the worst lightsaber fight, worst space battle, and managed to waste Mark Hamill, and topped it off by wasting Ian Mcdiarmid as well.
In honor of celebration weekend, I am am reminded that JJ managed to make the worst looking movie in the franchise, cut John Williams score all to hell, had the worst lightsaber fight, worst space battle, and managed to waste Mark Hamill, and topped it off by wasting Ian Mcdiarmid as well.
But he also gave us Babu Frik.
And Zorri Bliss, who is cool as fuck and I want to see the Poe/Zorri prequel.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
In honor of celebration weekend, I am am reminded that JJ managed to make the worst looking movie in the franchise, cut John Williams score all to hell, had the worst lightsaber fight, worst space battle, and managed to waste Mark Hamill, and topped it off by wasting Ian Mcdiarmid as well.
But he also gave us Babu Frik.
And Zorri Bliss, who is cool as fuck and I want to see the Poe/Zorri prequel.
I'm fine if Zorri ends up being the ST's Boba Fett: cool looking character who is obviously badass despite not proving it at all in the movies.
In honor of celebration weekend, I am am reminded that JJ managed to make the worst looking movie in the franchise, cut John Williams score all to hell, had the worst lightsaber fight, worst space battle, and managed to waste Mark Hamill, and topped it off by wasting Ian Mcdiarmid as well.
But he also gave us Babu Frik.
And Zorri Bliss, who is cool as fuck and I want to see the Poe/Zorri prequel.
I'm fine if Zorri ends up being the ST's Boba Fett: cool looking character who is obviously badass despite not proving it at all in the movies.
Did we not already have that nailed down?? I thought this had been taken care of back in TFA.
In honor of celebration weekend, I am am reminded that JJ managed to make the worst looking movie in the franchise, cut John Williams score all to hell, had the worst lightsaber fight, worst space battle, and managed to waste Mark Hamill, and topped it off by wasting Ian Mcdiarmid as well.
But he also gave us Babu Frik.
And Zorri Bliss, who is cool as fuck and I want to see the Poe/Zorri prequel.
I'm fine if Zorri ends up being the ST's Boba Fett: cool looking character who is obviously badass despite not proving it at all in the movies.
Boba Fett did like 3 things in the movies. Which is 300% more than Zorri ever did. Phasma is clearly the superior "cool by reputation but criminally underused in the films themselves" character. I think Phasma's novel, comic mini-series, and villain one-off comic are all genuinely interesting and well done.
I could recite you beat for beat the entirety of RoS’s plot but I have completely forgotten everything about Babu Frick. Was he the guy who operated on 3po?
Anyway I think Phasma does enough. Her entire thing is that she is a mini-boss the physical representation of Finn’s act of rebellion and what it’s against. I’m good with that and then she never appears again.
JJ thought so little of Babu Frink that he left him alone to die on an exploding planet. Disney had to convince the FX team to slide him into frame during the Zori Bliss reunion so fans could be placated. Imagine being so horrid that even your own father JJ Abrams abandons you.
JJ thought so little of Babu Frink that he left him alone to die on an exploding planet. Disney had to convince the FX team to slide him into frame during the Zori Bliss reunion so fans could be placated. Imagine being so horrid that even your own father JJ Abrams abandons you.
I still think the two lightsaber fights in TRoS between Rey and Kylo are pretty cool. The one where they fight through their link to each other has a cool feel and set up to it. And the fight with them on the remains of the Death Star was very good.
TFA hasd Phasma thrown into a dumpster, TLJ she lands in a burning dumpster, TROS could have had her slam dunked into a burning exploding dumpster and it would have been like poetry it would have rhymed
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
The death star fight is barely a fight. It's the first time that Kylo has the advantage and that's mostly because Rey is so emotionally messed up that she can't function. It's just Kylo winning until his mom yells at him so much she dies.
I really like the idea of the Death Star fight, with the ocean waves calling back to the lava waves in the Anakin/Obi-Wan fight, I just wish it had been executed better.
+5
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
As ever, there are no bad stories, only stories told poorly, and I have even come around to the idea that what happens in RoS could have worked...mostly because nothing much of anything happens, it's mostly whizbang lights and colors, so there's less awfulness to actually salvage.
Also am I the only person who thought it looked like Rey was actually winning the Death Star wreckage fight until Kylo Ren remembered that he was booked to win about three-quarters of the way through and just said "fuck off I'm going over"?
As ever, there are no bad stories, only stories told poorly, and I have even come around to the idea that what happens in RoS could have worked...mostly because nothing much of anything happens, it's mostly whizbang lights and colors, so there's less awfulness to actually salvage.
Also am I the only person who thought it looked like Rey was actually winning the Death Star wreckage fight until Kylo Ren remembered that he was booked to win about three-quarters of the way through and just said "fuck off I'm going over"?
No, to me it looked like she was out of control and overextended the entire fight, and Kylo was not killing her the whole time because he really didn't want to. Honestly, the most confusing part is the end, was he truly considering finishing her off until his mom interceded? That's bizarre to me, as he had literally no interest in doing that the entire rest of the series, no matter how many chances he got.
I'm the one who thinks TLJ was a pretentious nonsensical follow up to TFA (That had some good moments but otherwise wasted a lot of potential and goodwill TFA as well as Rogue One built back up)
And unfortunately I had the monkey's paw in my possession after seeing it, so
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
I'm the one who thinks TLJ was a pretentious nonsensical follow up to TFA (That had some good moments but otherwise wasted a lot of potential and goodwill TFA as well as Rogue One built back up)
And unfortunately I had the monkey's paw in my possession after seeing it, so
Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
edited August 2020
TFA place setting was god awful and TLJ best moments were when they threw those goddamn mystery boxes in the trash. JJ got a great cast and had a real solid plot line with Kylo and a lot of squandered opportunities because he knows what star wars looks like and has no idea how to actually do a story in that setting.
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Further so many of the(truly) bad stuff about TLJ are directly from TFA that many missed. Are you angry that the Resistence was reduced to basically nothing? Go back to the control room scenes in TFA and you'll see they state that outright. Are you mad Finn still only cares about Rey? I'm sorry that's where TFA left his character. He lies and almost gets the resistance killed to get on the mission to save Rey and only agrees to sabotage Skywalker base when he has literally no choice. Then he spends the last ten minutes knocked out. Are you mad that Luke has become kind of a dirtbag? That's on TFA. There was never going to be a reason that Luke gave up that isn't bad for him.
Then again I'm pretty forgiving of most of the creative choices in RoS and mostly mad about it because of how wasteful and poorly done everything is.
We can have this argument again if you want. But trust me, its not worth it. It really comes down to differing ideas of what people want from Star Wars. Neither is wrong.
The thing about it is that nothing I have said is about either movies quality. Its an attempt at dispassionate descriptions of what literally happens in each movie. I find it interesting that these discussions often devolve into discussions about whether each movie is the "correct" sequel to the one before it. Its interesting because that isn't really a discussion of each films quality. Well, I think its interesting.
EDIT-Anyway don't mind me I don't really have a point. I'm just bored.
I agree with you. I'm not saying one is correct or whatever. I'm just saying there is a valid reason to think that TFA left different path(s) for TLJ to have taken.
- The resistance was minimal in TFA, yes. But TLJ could have time jumped with Leia having gained support after the Hosnian tragedy.
- Finn realized he was wrong only caring about Rey by the end of TFA. No reason that had to continue. And honestly TLJ didn't continue that. Finn had growth of a different kind which I think was actually pretty good. But it wasn't the only story that could have been told about Finn as a result of TFA.
- Luke being out of the game for years could have been resolved in a number of ways from TFA. Him giving up and abandoning his friends, by choice, was not the only option TFA left.
Again, this argument has been had multiple times across multiple iterations of this thread. Its like bad poetry, its just repeating itself.
But yes TLJ could have written those things out or changed it but like I said the thing I find interesting isn't the argument is not whether anything is good but that people see TLJ as not being a good sequel to TFA because they view it as retconning things that absolutely were canon in TFA.
The bolded is not a common complaint about TLJ at all. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen that complaint around here.
You're right here, though. I had it backwards from TLJ. In TFA, he learns to care about someone else and not just escaping danger. Sort of the same arc Han went through in ANH. In TLJ he learns to expand that care and love outwards and the correct way to focus it.
And then I don't know, have the New Republic try and start a new dating system after they consolidate control or something.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
But he also gave us Babu Frik.
And Zorri Bliss, who is cool as fuck and I want to see the Poe/Zorri prequel.
I'm fine if Zorri ends up being the ST's Boba Fett: cool looking character who is obviously badass despite not proving it at all in the movies.
Did we not already have that nailed down?? I thought this had been taken care of back in TFA.
Boba Fett did like 3 things in the movies. Which is 300% more than Zorri ever did. Phasma is clearly the superior "cool by reputation but criminally underused in the films themselves" character. I think Phasma's novel, comic mini-series, and villain one-off comic are all genuinely interesting and well done.
Anyway I think Phasma does enough. Her entire thing is that she is a mini-boss the physical representation of Finn’s act of rebellion and what it’s against. I’m good with that and then she never appears again.
Sucks they didn’t replace her with anything.
JJ abandoned all his creations sans Rey and Kylo.
Also am I the only person who thought it looked like Rey was actually winning the Death Star wreckage fight until Kylo Ren remembered that he was booked to win about three-quarters of the way through and just said "fuck off I'm going over"?
No, to me it looked like she was out of control and overextended the entire fight, and Kylo was not killing her the whole time because he really didn't want to. Honestly, the most confusing part is the end, was he truly considering finishing her off until his mom interceded? That's bizarre to me, as he had literally no interest in doing that the entire rest of the series, no matter how many chances he got.
I'm the one who thinks TLJ was a pretentious nonsensical follow up to TFA (That had some good moments but otherwise wasted a lot of potential and goodwill TFA as well as Rogue One built back up)
And unfortunately I had the monkey's paw in my possession after seeing it, so
Courtesy of Willrow Hood's ice cream maker.
What did TLJ ruin that TFA started?
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Never liked strawberry, typically I enjoy vanilla or fruit flavors . Black cherry and peach are far and beyond strawberry for me.
You’ll get strawberry and like it.