[Battletech] Clan Invasion Kickstarter Canon Character Update (post #2)

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  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    The Clanner population vs the Inner Sphere would be similar in disparity as the population of the UK vs China.

    It is a MASSIVE gap between the two. Hell, probably more people in just one Successor State then in the entirety of Clanner space.

    Ya, but the point is that population doesn't matter, or else no one would be taking over worlds with over a billion people spread across multiple continents. How many troops and how many dropships would be needed to take over the USA?

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Population matters to the war effort. More people = bigger armies and more people in factories turning out war material. Making it way easier to replace men and material. The Inner Sphere Successor States can literally throw lives away in battle (just a single battle!) by the thousands and it wouldn't really have a negative impact on their capacity to make war. The Clans however cannot afford to do this. In fact after just one catastrophic battle the Clans literally didn't have the manpower to continue their war against the Inner Sphere. Just one battle and they lost an entire generation. Inner Sphere doesn't even blink at loses that bad.

    Actually invading planets varies. Successor States can't defend everything so they don't. A pretty common defense strategy for Successor States is to counterattack once their enemy has stretched themselves thin from conquering a bunch of low pop/unimportant worlds.

    Invading and conquering a single built up planet can and often does last years.

    Or to put it another way.

    Clanner space contains about two dozen star systems. Period. The Inner Sphere contains over two thousand settled worlds.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
    NobodyNipsGnome-InterruptusDarkewolfe
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited June 3
    Axen wrote: »
    The Clanner population vs the Inner Sphere would be similar in disparity as the population of the UK vs China.

    It is a MASSIVE gap between the two. Hell, probably more people in just one Successor State then in the entirety of Clanner space.

    As I recall, clan space was also barely habitable; they got to the inner sphere and thought it was the garden of eden.

    Also for reference on one of the more important planets in the inner sphere, hesperus 2 which is the seat of power for defiance industries and the backbone of the lyran commonwealth's might has a grand whopping population of 345,500 as of 3079.

    Gaddez on
    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    AxenNipsH3Knuckles
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    Population matters to the war effort. More people = bigger armies and more people in factories turning out war material. Making it way easier to replace men and material. The Inner Sphere Successor States can literally throw lives away in battle (just a single battle!) by the thousands and it wouldn't really have a negative impact on their capacity to make war. The Clans however cannot afford to do this. In fact after just one catastrophic battle the Clans literally didn't have the manpower to continue their war against the Inner Sphere. Just one battle and they lost an entire generation. Inner Sphere doesn't even blink at loses that bad.

    Actually invading planets varies. Successor States can't defend everything so they don't. A pretty common defense strategy for Successor States is to counterattack once their enemy has stretched themselves thin from conquering a bunch of low pop/unimportant worlds.

    Invading and conquering a single built up planet can and often does last years.

    Or to put it another way.

    Clanner space contains about two dozen star systems. Period. The Inner Sphere contains over two thousand settled worlds.

    Thing is, the inner sphere powers can't actually throw bodies into the meat grinder like they're 40k's imperium of man; within all of the successor states there are unhappy regions that would love to claim independance from the rest of the state and/or seek to overthrow whoever is sitting on the throne at that moment, and in the event that they smelled that kind of weakness they'd move in an instant to do so.

    Further, in the event that the inner sphere powers throw around those kinds of resources and they lose them they're bordering on totally screwed; even by the mid 3060's people were still using mechs that were centuries old because they literally couldn't replace them.

    Now that having been said, the Clans are actually in an even worse place when it comes to dealing with large scale losses since their entire system of efficient warfare doesn't factor it in except under the most extreme of circumstances; Clans wolf, jade falcon and smoke jaguar all found themselves in this situation and having to adapt to their catastrophic losses in the 3050's with the first two performing countless trials of possession with other clans for clusters and trinaries while the smoke jaguars were desperately trying to get the protomech program up and running.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    H3Knuckles
  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    I was under the impression that
    Axen wrote: »
    Population matters to the war effort. More people = bigger armies and more people in factories turning out war material. Making it way easier to replace men and material. The Inner Sphere Successor States can literally throw lives away in battle (just a single battle!) by the thousands and it wouldn't really have a negative impact on their capacity to make war. The Clans however cannot afford to do this. In fact after just one catastrophic battle the Clans literally didn't have the manpower to continue their war against the Inner Sphere. Just one battle and they lost an entire generation. Inner Sphere doesn't even blink at loses that bad.

    Actually invading planets varies. Successor States can't defend everything so they don't. A pretty common defense strategy for Successor States is to counterattack once their enemy has stretched themselves thin from conquering a bunch of low pop/unimportant worlds.

    Invading and conquering a single built up planet can and often does last years.

    Or to put it another way.

    Clanner space contains about two dozen star systems. Period. The Inner Sphere contains over two thousand settled worlds.

    It doesn't seem like population correlates to factories or army sizes, especially not in the same ratios as in the real world. The Internet says there are 20.5M people in the military, worldwide. Russia suffered 17M deaths in WW2 and China 20M, when the world population was about 2.5B. The Great Houses have planets with populations that big or larger, but they're not throwing around tens of millions of men like they do in 40K.

    As noted, Hesperus has a tiny population -- 345K in 3079 and only 55K in 3025, according to Sarna. And that was the biggest factory in the Inner Sphere. Taking those factories, or building new ones, seems much more important to the war effort than maintaining large, non-factory worlds which barely contribute.

    H3Knuckles
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 3
    I mean, the Clan invasion plan was basically:

    1. Race to Terra to determine who's the IlClan.
    2. ????
    3. IlClan rules the Inner Sphere

    Nobody on
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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Axen wrote: »
    The Clanner population vs the Inner Sphere would be similar in disparity as the population of the UK vs China.

    It is a MASSIVE gap between the two. Hell, probably more people in just one Successor State then in the entirety of Clanner space.

    As I recall, clan space was also barely habitable; they got to the inner sphere and thought it was the garden of eden.

    Also for reference on one of the more important planets in the inner sphere, hesperus 2 which is the seat of power for defiance industries and the backbone of the lyran commonwealth's might has a grand whopping population of 345,500 as of 3079.

    How much of the planetary stats on Sarna are actually canon vs someone making up a number to fill in the blank? Because sarna's overall stats indicate the population of the Lyran Commonwealth would need to average 3 billion on each of their worlds, and other houses are similar, which to me does feel at odds with many planetary descriptions in the fiction. Certainly that Hesperus number feels more in line with what I would expect. Though I suppose it's just another "don't look too close at the details if you want to enjoy it" things in Battletech too.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
    H3Knuckles
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited June 3
    The Inner Sphere can build Mechs. They in fact can build a lot, a lot of Mechs. There are certain ones they can't build (or it is just very hard to), but rest assured they are pumping them out like crazy.

    For instance, shortly before the First Succession War the Great Houses each had around 50 some Mech Regiments (give or take). By 3025 they'd have around 70-100. A single regiment has anywhere from 100-180 Mechs.

    Their standing armies are also of considerable size. Ranging anywhere from 10 to 20 million not including militias, planetary defenders, reserves or warrior orders. In the event of a real war those numbers can/have easily double or triple with conscription.

    The Inner Sphere doesn't typically fight sophisticated wars, they basically just throw bodies at a problem until that problem stops. Then they pat themselves on the back after they've successful taken a marginal world at the cost of hundreds of thousands of men.

    edit- On a related note, the population of the Inner Sphere is probably around 6 trillion people.

    edit 2- The Lyran's control about 300 systems, but they have nearly ~700 settled worlds/moons.

    edit 3- Man I love lore talk. As to Hesperus II, well it is basically literally just a company town. Nearly everyone who lives there works for Defiance. The planet itself is also very unforgiving to humans. The terrain also makes any sort of large scale military maneuvers nearly impossible. But even with all that the Lyran's still typically keep 3-5 full Regiments on the world to protect it.

    edit 5- Think of the planets of the Inner Sphere like cities and towns in the real world. Sure maybe someone might invade and capture New York, but they're not contending with just the good people of NYC they would also have to contend with the entirety of the United States. Same applies to Battletech. Sure, you might take this one lightly defended and populated world fairly easily, but now you need to deal with the full might and fury of the Federated Suns.

    Axen on
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  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Hesperus II as I understand it is an uninhabited highly mountainous rock whose only value is the Star League era factories nestled in one of those mountains.

    It's really not a typical planet, they don't know how to build more factories and expand production (although given the timelines of Battletech that's also a "don't think about it too much" situation - it's been how many hundreds of years?) so it's valuable and supremely important to a Great House's war effort but also the size of a tiny hick town.

    H3Knuckles
  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Is there an example of BattleTech forces moving around hundreds of thousands of troops? Sarna says a Condor is considered a huge troop carrier, and carries 336 men (and 20 vehicles). It doesn't really feel like the BattleTech flavor to launch hundreds or thousands of those per planet in addition to 'Mech, vehicle and fighter carriers.

  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 4
    Hmm, its hard to find exact numbers, since the writers tend to fudge the number of units. The best large scale battle I could find that could give us a decent number was this one: The Invasion of Tikonov during the 4th Succession War

    The attacking forces included 8 Fed Suns RCTs

    A single Fed Sun RCT consisted of:
    1 regiment of mechs
    3 regiments of vehicles
    5 regiments of infantry (2 foot, 2 jump, 1 mechanized)

    Per Sarna, each foot and mech regiment is approximately 756 strong, with jump infantry regiments being about 567. This puts each RCT at around 3400 infantry

    Approximate number of units:
    864 Battlemechs
    2592 combat vehicles
    27,200 infantry

    While it's likely not the largest battle of the 4th, it's the largest one that I can find that would give me unit totals. Most of the planets invaded during the 4th had 2-3 RCTs plus mercenaries or commands listed as irregular that were vague in composition, so, at a minimum 6800 infantry.

    Nobody on
    Iolo
  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Orogogus wrote: »
    Is there an example of BattleTech forces moving around hundreds of thousands of troops? Sarna says a Condor is considered a huge troop carrier, and carries 336 men (and 20 vehicles). It doesn't really feel like the BattleTech flavor to launch hundreds or thousands of those per planet in addition to 'Mech, vehicle and fighter carriers.

    Can't find many hard numbers but
    Task Force Serpent has been regarded as one of the largest military operations conducted by the Inner Sphere since the fall of the original Star League. In total, it consisted of 55,000 personnel; over a thousand BattleMechs, Aerospace Fighters and Combat Vehicles; ninety-eight DropShips and twenty-seven JumpShips and WarShips.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • NoughtNought Registered User regular
    Isn't a lot of the mech factories of the late succession era fully automated, but locked into templates like in Starsector or 40k's STCs.

    Or at least the ones building most of the really good mechs?

    On fire
    .
    Island. Being on fire.
    Gaddez
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited June 4
    I vaguely recall early fluff that Mechs couldn’t be built on an assembly line due to their nature not being conducive to remaining upright while being passed along a conveyer belt. But it also looks like that got thrown out at some point since I can’t find any reference to it online.

    IIRC the majority of manufacturing centers left by the 4th are manual. The automated factories like the Corean Enterprises Valkyrie line are considered exceptionally rare

    Nobody on
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    The FedCom Civil War had “two full generations of soldiers give their lives” to the conflict. While they don’t give exact numbers, considering how massive militaries are it is probably safe to assume the figures are horrifying.

    Most proper wars in the Inner Sphere likely have similarly high casualty rates. Certainly the Clan Invasion had massive casualties. Inner Sphere was throwing men at the Clans 4 to 1 and that was just to slow the Clanners down.

    Plus you have the near constant border skirmishes that are going on. These occasionally turn in to horrific meat grinders where both sides keep throwing men and material in to the fray until one of them leaves.

    Not all Great Houses are as careless with their forces as others are. But the Lyran’s and Combine in particular are pretty big on overwhelming the enemy with sheer numbers.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    That would make sense. I could see, "Look nobody's programmed in this language for over a century, if I try to change the configuration, it could brick the whole system and we may never get it back online." is a pretty convincing reason to, like, not fuck with shit.

    As long as you don't have a sales department to contend with...

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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited June 5
    Tox wrote: »
    That would make sense. I could see, "Look nobody's programmed in this language for over a century, if I try to change the configuration, it could brick the whole system and we may never get it back online." is a pretty convincing reason to, like, not fuck with shit.

    As long as you don't have a sales department to contend with...

    "Can this Locust rack LRM20's?" ::sales guy glances at the mechanic behind him frantically shaking his head no:: "Absolutely."

    Darkewolfe on
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  • NoughtNought Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    That would make sense. I could see, "Look nobody's programmed in this language for over a century, if I try to change the configuration, it could brick the whole system and we may never get it back online." is a pretty convincing reason to, like, not fuck with shit.

    As long as you don't have a sales department to contend with...

    "Can this Locust rack LRM20's?" ::sales guy glances at the mechanic behind him frantically shaking his head no:: "Absolutely."

    Sales does the flying, engineering does the dying.

    On fire
    .
    Island. Being on fire.
    FuselageAxenToxH3Knuckles
  • NipsNips Luxuriating in existential crisis.Registered User regular
    That's a hell of a product roadmap.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Clan Heavy Battle Star redesign sketches are up. Man that Crossbow looks cool as shit.

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  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles Jack of all interests... ...master of noneRegistered User regular
    edited June 10
    • I like the new Turkina, it never appealed to me before, but this one is nice, and it kind of looks like a King Crab descendant now, which is an interesting thought.
    • The Kingfisher isn't ugly anymore! I've always been kind of partial to this mech because it fills the one empty tonnage spot (90) in the Invasion 16, it's an omni, and it was in full scale production long before the invasion started, so it always felt like it should be more prominent (of course, this is because IRL they hadn't created it until the 3058 TRO)
    • I never liked the old Crossbow (I'm generally not a fan of missile-fists, to be honest), but this one does look pretty good.
    • I actually don't like this take on the Ebon Jag. It looks too much like a Bushwhacker now, imho. MWO's version is better looking to me.
    • The Huntsman is nice, close enough to MWO's design that I can't say I have much of a preference either way.

    H3Knuckles on
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    Tox
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    *Sarna's Kingfisher*

    good lord that is an ugly baby. Thank you, Catalyst Labs, for making this 'mech reasonable to look upon.

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  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    I like all of these, including the Ebon Jag.

    I do agree that the MWO version is better, but it’s still pretty solid.

    Betsuni
  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    I kept going.. what the hell is an Ebon Jag?

    Oooohhh the Cauldron-born, it's the other name of the Cauldron-born. <head smack> I see now.

    The new one does look real good to me.

  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles Jack of all interests... ...master of noneRegistered User regular
    edited June 10
    Things seem to be stabilizing on using the Clan names for Clan mechs as their main reference these days.
    • Clan name (IS reporting name)
    • Emerald Harrier (Roadrunner) - 15 ton battlemech
    • Firemoth (Dasher) - 20 ton omnimech
    • Howler (Baboon) - 20 ton battlemech
    • Mist Lynx (Koshi) - 25 ton omnimech
    • Arctic Cheetah (Hankyu) - 30 ton omnimech
    • Incubus (Vixen) - 30 ton battlemech
    • Kit Fox (Uller) - 30 ton omnimech
    • Adder (Puma) - 35 ton omnimech
    • Horned Owl (Peregrine) - 35 ton battlemech
    • Viper (Dragonfly) - 40 ton omnimech
    • Ice Ferret (Fenris) - 45 ton omnimech
    • Mongrel (Grendel) - 45 ton omnimech
    • Conjurer (Hellhound) - 50 ton battlemech
    • Huntsman (Nobori-nin) - 50 ton omnimech
    • Nova (Blackhawk) - 50 ton omnimech
    • Stormcrow (Ryoken) - 55 ton omnimech
    • Vapor Eagle (Goshawk) - 55 ton battlemech
    • Glass Spider (Galahad) - 60 ton battlemech
    • Mad Dog (Vulture) - 60 ton omnimech
    • Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron-Born) - 65 ton omnimech
    • Hellbringer (Loki) - 65 ton omnimech
    • Summoner (Thor) - 70 ton omnimech
    • Black Python (Viper) - 75 ton battlemech
    • Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) - 75 ton omnimech
    • Gargoyle (Man O' War) - 80 ton omnimech
    • Warhawk (Masakari) - 85 ton omnimech
    • Executioner (Gladiator) - 95 ton omnimech
    • Bane (Kraken) - 100 ton battlemech
    • Dire Wolf (Daishi) - 100 ton omnimech
    • Stone Rhino (Behemoth) - 100 ton battlemech

    That's all 30 of them, as far as I'm aware.

    H3Knuckles on
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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Swag!
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    Patches!
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  • NipsNips Luxuriating in existential crisis.Registered User regular
    Unf.

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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    I kinda regret not getting a Wolf's Dragoons patch.

    What is this I don't even.
    Iolo
  • IanatorIanator Delightfully mediocre! Registered User regular
    So Thingiverse just got DMCA'd by Catalyst over everything with Battletech or Mechwarrior in its name or tags. While some things have come back up, if you wanted to print any of the MWO-like models I hope you already have the .STLs 'cause good luck getting them now.

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  • HydroSqueegeeHydroSqueegee ULTRACAT!!!™®© Registered User regular
    edited June 15
    Ianator wrote: »
    So Thingiverse just got DMCA'd by Catalyst over everything with Battletech or Mechwarrior in its name or tags. While some things have come back up, if you wanted to print any of the MWO-like models I hope you already have the .STLs 'cause good luck getting them now.

    dang. i pulled a lot of vehicles, but there were just too many mechs to go through when the site is slow as balls. welp... guess we'll see where they pop up next.

    edit: crap... like everything in my battletech collection is gone. I had a lot saved but didnt download the stls on a lot of things... :(

    HydroSqueegee on
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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • NipsNips Luxuriating in existential crisis.Registered User regular
    edited June 15
    Wow. Did it hit just MWO-alike models, or anything with the name Battletech on it?

    I'm not surprised as CGL has to protect the trademark. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if things like custom designs make their way back without the name attached, and repositories of the removed .stls start floating around.

    Nips on
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  • HydroSqueegeeHydroSqueegee ULTRACAT!!!™®© Registered User regular
    Nips wrote: »
    Wow. Did it hit just MWO-alike models, or anything with the name Battletech on it?

    I'm not surprised as CGL has to protect the trademark. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if things like custom designs make their way back without the name attached, and repositories of the removed .stls start floating around.

    anything with a battletech tag got hit. even just stuff listed as battletech compatible.

    Now im trying to track down anyone that may have a dump of all the stl files.

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  • BetsuniBetsuni Insert Disk 4 and Press Any Key to Continue Registered User regular
    Dang... Does the way back machine still work? Maybe the files can be snagged from there?

    Wish I got the Urbie before they got taken down.

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  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    I will say this much, some of the creators that were putting in a little extra effort with the MWO models (cleaning them up, posing them, etc) have those files on several different sites. Syllogy for instance has a couple of sources and his stuff is quite nice (and he has a rather robust catalog).

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  • HydroSqueegeeHydroSqueegee ULTRACAT!!!™®© Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    I will say this much, some of the creators that were putting in a little extra effort with the MWO models (cleaning them up, posing them, etc) have those files on several different sites. Syllogy for instance has a couple of sources and his stuff is quite nice (and he has a rather robust catalog).

    yep. did some digging and was able to snag 146 of his designs.

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  • NoughtNought Registered User regular
    I've been thinking, how would you rewrite Clan mechs, and some of the lore, to make Clan mechs and tech not be so redunculesly overpowered compared to IS tech?

    What I'm thinking with this is that Clan warfare on the homeworlds was ritualistic to save on resources and lives.
    Wouldn't it then follow that their mech designs should be built around the idea of short engagements, with limited ammo for weapons, but more or bigger weapons for a better alpha strike.
    I think some of this is already a thing, but I'm thinking put a greater emphasis on it, so that a clan mech or star that doesn't cripple an opponent very fast will be exposed to heavy damage in a counter attack.

    To enhance this/explain it, maybe the Clan techbase isn't as complete as it is now. They lost a lot of ships getting to the location of the pentagon worlds. And then they had another exodus and a reconquest.

    Maybe they only have bulky but very good armour, so they have to choose between protection and firepower in a more tangible way than it is currently.

    Maybe they lost the ability to do very high energy transfer, som they are limeted to small and medium lasers. Pulse lasers could then be reworked so the big benifit is that the power drain is drawn out, with the downside that you can't deliver a powerful punch.

    Basicly, is there a way to still give them a tech edge but get away from the space marine syndrome of having a clan mech only die on top of a pile of enemy mechs?

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  • H3KnucklesH3Knuckles Jack of all interests... ...master of noneRegistered User regular
    edited June 16
    I don't really think that's a good idea, else the Clan Invasion would be a joke. They're at a massive strategic & logistical disadvantage vs the IS that is only really offset by their tech superiority and individual unit performance advantages. As long as the gameplay is set up to allow opposing sides to bring unequal-size forces, this isn't a game design problem. That said, the solution to the tech inequality problem is the Inner Sphere catching up once the major Clan storylines began to wrap up, which is something they've never really done unfortunately.

    Also, the thing with the whole military shift towards efficiency because of scarce resources, is that letting energy weapons become lostech is like the absolute last thing the science caste would allow.

    Pulse lasers are Star League tech, so they wouldn't diverge too much in function from IS models. If you want a new type of lasers, just make up a new one.

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  • NoughtNought Registered User regular
    Okay. The examples wasn't meant as my great idea on how to rebalence Battletech, but more of an idea on how to change things up.

    But I have to admit I haven't really tried the tabletop game, so maybe it's more of a problem in video games like MWO where it seems like people hate on anything Clan because of the better mechs and tech.

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