[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Pubs Re-Open On July 4th

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Charlie Brooker does make a habit of being a dickhead to dickheads, though. I'd say it's expected behaviour from him.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    edited May 23
    MorganV wrote: »
    altid wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Worth it, Charlie

    Already changed back sadly.

    For those who missed it, he changed his screen name and profile pic to match that of Laura Kuenssberg.

    A bit of a dick move, but given the context, fully appropriate.

    Didn't we establish that renaming your account to whatever you like is fine during the GE? I seem to remember the tories imitating a fact checking account during the debates and they faced absolutely no consequences.

    While I get your point, I'm not sure modelling correct behavior on the actions of Tories when it comes to morality, is the right move.

    Not suggesting that the opposition should unilaterally disarm, cause screw that. Just pointing out "I can be a dickhead because they're dickheads" just makes everyone dickheads.

    So, on the dickhead front, Tories (and conservatives in general) have pulled one of the smartest and most dickheaded moves of all over the past few years. They've made it a lose-lose situation when it comes to dickheadery.

    See, let's say you're a political ideology that prides itself on being essentially, the better man. You're for more rights, you're for the workers. You've spent decades positioning yourselves as the opposite of these dickheads who everyone agrees are dickheads.

    So you're trying to get into power, pass a bill, whatever it might be. And your opponents, as predicted, are being dickheads, using underhand tactics, filibustering, slander, whatever they might need to get their way.

    What do you do?

    You could stay the better man, not stoop to their level, but if you do that, you lose. Because your opponent is willing to do whatever they need to do to win. You're sticking to the rules of rugby whilst meanwhile, the opposing prop had driven onto the pitch in a steamroller working under airbud "It doesn't say you can't" logic.

    And let's say you stoop to their level, fight fire with fire. What happens then? Well then your opponents just turn around and point out it is now you who are the dickheads, they make a huge song and dance about it without the slightest hint of irony or acceptance of hypocrisy. And then your followers see this, and see you've stooped to that level, and stop following you, because you're being a dickhead.

    Let's apply this logic to Brexit.

    We have our big, famous dickhead moment. The bus. An outright blatant lie. Everyone on the remain side knew, and loudly stated, it was a lie. But people believed it. So what was the right choice here? Remain chose to stick to being the better people, and the bus o'lies kept doing its damage. What if remain had deployed its own counter bus, with its own lie, "the EU actually puts £400mil into the NHS"? I can guarantee the leave response would have been "that's a lie", and remain voters, people who anecdotally from my experience valued facts and the truth, would have lost a ton of respect for the campaign.

    It's kind of genius. Conservatives have set themselves up to a point where they can do anything they like to win, but their opponents can't play by their rules or they'll lose anyway.

    Norgoth on
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Norgoth wrote: »
    It's kind of genius. Conservatives have set themselves up to a point where they can do anything they like to win, but their opponents can't play by their rules or they'll lose anyway.

    Again, not saying we should unilaterally disarm.

    My point was more that if you sink to their level, and become comfortable with it, then there's really not as much difference, and it makes it much harder to call them out.

    If it becomes acceptable to lie, cheat, steal, then you're conceding that fuck it, no point in any integrity in government, both sides are just the same, only outcomes matter, and absolutely nothing is off the table if it means winning.

    If that's the only way to win, that morality and integrity on any level is a handicap, and that's what the citizenry believe, well, that's just fucked. Having a government that is just two equally reprehensible groups of monkeys throwing shit at each other, just wearing different jerseys, is not acceptable.

    Also, I don't think it will work. Conservatives have clearly bought into the "win at all costs" argument, but I think a significant portion of liberals won't. Maybe not a majority, but enough that if leftist politicians play that game, they'll never get into power.

    I understand the frustration, and again, don't believe in unilateral disarmament, and wish the electorate was better informed. But acceleration into "they say both sides are the same, let's prove them right!" is a godawful outcome.

  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Norgoth wrote: »
    It's kind of genius. Conservatives have set themselves up to a point where they can do anything they like to win, but their opponents can't play by their rules or they'll lose anyway.


    Also, I don't think it will work. Conservatives have clearly bought into the "win at all costs" argument, but I think a significant portion of liberals won't. Maybe not a majority, but enough that if leftist politicians play that game, they'll never get into power.

    This is exactly what I was getting at.

    For the record, I don't think matching conservatives on this is a good idea, at all.

    MorganVH3Knuckles
  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Big Doms case not beong helped by his wife writing articles for the Spectator that contradict his story.

    Also ones that are just bare faced fibs

    The cunts cunt Alistair Campbell zeroing in on this.

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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    If it becomes acceptable to lie, cheat, steal

    That ship sailed a very long time ago.

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  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    I think it is fair to say that so far, the Government's response to this has been about as bad as it could be.

    The 'yeah he did it but it's fine' defense doesn't really work in a situation where thousands of people have faced the same situation as Dominic but were told in clear terms by the Government to Stay Home.

    How can you say that people MUST miss the birth of children, the deaths of relatives, and keep vulnerable isolated but Cummings' choice is the right one?

    Fucking disgusting.

    JazzBurnageH3KnucklesaltidShadowenLord_AsmodeusForarAegisCommander ZoomAimSolarZilla360tynicGnome-InterruptusElldrenmonikerQanamilhonovereautono-wally, erotibot300
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Well, they’ve gone all in on it now. Almost every cabinet minister has said it’s fine and anyone who says different is bad and wrong.

    JazzZilla360moniker
  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52782913
    The PM's top aide Dominic Cummings says he did the "right thing" by travelling 260 miles to be near relatives during the coranavirus lockdown - adding that he did not care what it looked like.

    ...

    Mr Cummings told reporters he "behaved reasonably and legally" when asked about the trip from London to Durham.

    Asked whether it looked good, he said: "Who cares about good looks? It's a question of doing the right thing. It's not about what you guys think."

    Into the "yes I did it and it was awesome" stage.

    Commander ZoomZilla360
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    I know I shouldn't be, but I am actually quite surprised just how low they've lowered themselves here.

    Dominic clearly has far more influence behind the scenes than we are privy to.

  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    A Labour spokesman said: "The prime minister's chief adviser appears to believe that it is one rule for him and another for the British people."
    I don't think that's true at all.
    He thinks there's no rules for him, and he appears to be right.

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    Numerous people within the government said that Cummings and his family weren't spoken to by the police.

    They've given a statement:



    Adam is a political editor of The Business Insider.

  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    The police said that the owner of the property was spoken to. And he said he owner confirmed Big Dom was there and isolating in a part of the house.


    Cummings story that they were in the house by themselves is a lie or the property owners were lying or the police were lying.

    Cummings story is a sensational pile of contradictory nonsense.

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  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    So when Big Dom says his family wasn't spoken to he means himself or his wife.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    edited May 23
    I look forward to the front page spreads tomorrow about how cummings broke the rules and should be expected to resign. You know, like the relatively unknown (to the public) epidemiologist Prof. Neil Ferguson had his private life splashed all over the front pages a scant few weeks ago. I also look forward to everyone who said it was right for him to resign calling for cummings resignation also. Indeed, the guardian have an article with a selection of such quotes:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/23/lockdown-rule-breakers-dominic-cummings-what-uk-ministers-said

    altid on
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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    altid wrote: »
    I look forward to the front page spreads tomorrow about how cummings broke the rules and should be expected to resign. You know, like the relatively unknown (to the public) epidemiologist Prof. Neil Ferguson had his private life splashed all over the front pages a scant few weeks ago. I also look forward to everyone who said it was right for him to resign calling for cummings resignation also. Indeed, the guardian have an article with a selection of such quotes:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/23/lockdown-rule-breakers-dominic-cummings-what-uk-ministers-said

    Imma thinkin' you're going to be disappointed.

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  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular


    Wes Streeting is the Labour MP for Ilford North

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    So when Big Dom says his family wasn't spoken to he means himself or his wife.

    Which is, ironically, an admission he broke isolation protocol. As he went to meet and live with someone not in his family.

    wbBv3fj.png
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    They are so, so bad at this



    The interesting point here is that it leads to an obvious parliamentary question:
    - is this defence reflected in whatever guidance has been issued to the CPS in respect of prosecuting individuals for breaching the coronavirus regulations?
    - if not, will the guidance be amended to recommend that individuals with access to such a defence are not prosecuted?
    - How will the courts make provision for those who have already been issued with fixed penalties to contest those penalties on this basis?

    tynicmonikerH3Knuckles
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    edited May 23
    I'm flabbergasted that the Government has gone all in on this defense. Like, they could have taken the cautious stay-silent, do-nothing approach like you often see. But no, they've been made to publicly voice their full support.

    There must have been an ultimatum set by 10DS, i.e. put out a statement of support or lose your Cabinet post. I've just not seen anything like it before, especially on a matter so obviously indefensible.

    This is far more troubling than anything else I've seen in UK politics for a long time... which when you think about it, makes that even more terrifying.

    Bad-Beat on
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  • AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    I'm flabbergasted that the Government has gone all in on this defense. Like, they could have taken the cautious stay-silent, do-nothing approach like you often see. But no, they've been made to publicly voice their full support.

    There must have been an ultimatum set by 10DS, i.e. put out a statement of support or lose your Cabinet post. I've just not seen anything like it before, especially on a matter so obviously indefensible.

    This is far more troubling than anything else I've seen in UK politics for a long time... which when you think about it, makes that even more terrifying.

    I beginning to think Dominic Cummings is the most powerful man in the UK.

    Can you imagine this outpouring of support from ministers if Raab had done this, or Hancock?

    In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
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  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    I'm flabbergasted that the Government has gone all in on this defense. Like, they could have taken the cautious stay-silent, do-nothing approach like you often see. But no, they've been made to publicly voice their full support.

    There must have been an ultimatum set by 10DS, i.e. put out a statement of support or lose your Cabinet post. I've just not seen anything like it before, especially on a matter so obviously indefensible.

    This is far more troubling than anything else I've seen in UK politics for a long time... which when you think about it, makes that even more terrifying.

    I beginning to think Dominic Cummings is the most powerful man in the UK.

    Can you imagine this outpouring of support from ministers if Raab had done this, or Hancock?

    Beginning to? This just confirms what's been suspected for a long time.

    altidH3KnucklesBlackDragon480
  • BurnageBurnage irregular Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    I think it is fair to say that so far, the Government's response to this has been about as bad as it could be.

    The 'yeah he did it but it's fine' defense doesn't really work in a situation where thousands of people have faced the same situation as Dominic but were told in clear terms by the Government to Stay Home.

    How can you say that people MUST miss the birth of children, the deaths of relatives, and keep vulnerable isolated but Cummings' choice is the right one?

    Fucking disgusting.

    I can't imagine how I'd be feeling right now if I'd missed the death of a parent because of the lockdown only to hear about this.

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  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    I think it is fair to say that so far, the Government's response to this has been about as bad as it could be.

    The 'yeah he did it but it's fine' defense doesn't really work in a situation where thousands of people have faced the same situation as Dominic but were told in clear terms by the Government to Stay Home.

    How can you say that people MUST miss the birth of children, the deaths of relatives, and keep vulnerable isolated but Cummings' choice is the right one?

    Fucking disgusting.

    I can't imagine how I'd be feeling right now if I'd missed the death of a parent because of the lockdown only to hear about this.

    Or been trying to school children whilst sick with COVID19.

    Jazz
  • GaryOGaryO Registered User regular
    Between Cummings breaking the lockdown and not being fired for it, and the incoming hot weather this is gonna be the end of lockdown isn't it?

    Maybe not officially. But a significant chunk of idiots will see this as 'well its ok for him to break lockdownso its ok for us, ps its hot lets go to the beach/pub and party!'

    This is not gonna end well

    moniker
  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    GaryO wrote: »
    Between Cummings breaking the lockdown and not being fired for it, and the incoming hot weather this is gonna be the end of lockdown isn't it?

    Maybe not officially. But a significant chunk of idiots will see this as 'well its ok for him to break lockdownso its ok for us, ps its hot lets go to the beach/pub and party!'

    This is not gonna end well

    They've been doing that for 2 weeks. All over the show.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Yeah people are definitely taking it way less seriously. And I mean, it's been two months. I don't know if you could expect people to just continue with that indefinitely. It's fucking awful and people are getting miserable and keen to see other people

    Zilla360
  • GaryOGaryO Registered User regular
    GaryO wrote: »
    Between Cummings breaking the lockdown and not being fired for it, and the incoming hot weather this is gonna be the end of lockdown isn't it?

    Maybe not officially. But a significant chunk of idiots will see this as 'well its ok for him to break lockdown so its ok for us, ps its hot lets go to the beach/pub and party!'

    This is not gonna end well

    They've been doing that for 2 weeks. All over the show.

    True
    They didnt have to be on lockdown indefinetely but at least while the country is on lockdown they could at least have the common decency to practice what they preach so as not to undermine their own message and avoid people dying as a result of flouting it.

    Common decency, what am I talking about. Its the Tories, they don't care

    H3Knuckles
  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    As Trump has shown, there isn’t much of a defence against utter shamelessness and dishonesty.

    Is this when the Conservatives go full Republican party?

    UrsusH3KnucklesFencingsax
  • BurnageBurnage irregular Registered User regular
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    Oh my god.

    They definitely had that story written up and ready to go before they published the initial report. They then let the Government get all the excuses in based on that one trip alone and then.. this.

    Fucking hell, the Government went ALL IN with support today. There's no credibility left.

    Laughing like a drain.

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  • oldmankenoldmanken Registered User regular
    How many ministers came out in support? How many now have untenable positions?

    AntinumericFencingsax
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Haha daaamn

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    I'm sure Cummings is petrified of the impending Twitter storm for a few days before he faces absolutely no consequences at all.

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  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    I'm sure Cummings is petrified of the impending Twitter storm for a few days before he faces absolutely no consequences at all.

    It's not Cummings that should care here. The entire Cabinet has just been made to look like spineless cowards; more interested in self-preservation than keeping Britain safe.

    The Sunday morning shows are going to have a field day tomorrow, with Starmer following up on Wednesday.

  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    Plus there's a pretty big anti-Cummings faction within the Tories.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Laura K's "journalism" looking increasingly questionable too

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  • jaziekjaziek Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    I'm sure Cummings is petrified of the impending Twitter storm for a few days before he faces absolutely no consequences at all.

    It's not Cummings that should care here. The entire Cabinet has just been made to look like spineless cowards; more interested in self-preservation than keeping Britain safe.

    The Sunday morning shows are going to have a field day tomorrow, with Starmer following up on Wednesday.

    no pmqs for the next couple of weeks

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    Gdiguy
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    jaziek wrote: »
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    Casual wrote: »
    I'm sure Cummings is petrified of the impending Twitter storm for a few days before he faces absolutely no consequences at all.

    It's not Cummings that should care here. The entire Cabinet has just been made to look like spineless cowards; more interested in self-preservation than keeping Britain safe.

    The Sunday morning shows are going to have a field day tomorrow, with Starmer following up on Wednesday.

    no pmqs for the next couple of weeks

    You are right, sadly. But in any case, I have faith Starmer knows how to make the most of this regardless.

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