[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Dunkirk Only Works One Way

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  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    Perdurabo wrote: »
    I'm having to travel from Leeds to Manchester for work two days a week from next week. So I'm allowed into the office, I'm allowed onto a train, but can't visit friends again. Cool cool.

    Just meet on the train

    Sorted
    Make a day out of it, meet at Barnard Castle.

    Rhesus PositiveSporkAndrewElldrenAntinumericSpecial KJazzmonikerGnome-InterruptusHerrCronCommander ZoomtynicSolarPlatyZilla360
  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    A conservative MP claimed today it's all the fault of those BAME people that covid is spreading again.

    Nothing at all to do with all those (mainly White) people packing on to beaches and pubs I'm sure.

  • GumpyGumpy There is always a greater powerRegistered User regular
    So what's the correct answer here - suspend local lockdowns?

  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Gumpy wrote: »
    So what's the correct answer here - suspend local lockdowns?

    The problem is that we have government that is scrabbling around reactively

    Hence, a lockdown announcement on a minister's twitter at 9pm at night, with no forewarning for the local authorities or the NHS and no planned Comms

    Compare and contrast the French approach, were there is a clear and published framework for making this kind of decision, supported by good, accessible, and locally granular information on the relevant factors which enables people to plan - when local lockdowns come into force it isn't a surprise because people are able to access information on virus prevalence and spread in their locality

    Granted, that probably isn't possible in the UK, because our testing and data infrastructure isn't nearly as sophisticated, and we started from a position of much lower capability and capacity when it came to testing and contact tracing

    However, it's astonishing that there seems to have been no Comms plan - no sharing of information with stakeholders, no consistent messaging, a lack of clarity as to what the lockdown measures actually are

    That's literally the very least that should have been in place

    MayabirdRed or AliveGnome-InterruptusCasualCommander ZoomElldrenZilla360
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    You ask too much.

  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Guess which RCP member got put into the Lords?

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Claire “what genocide?” Fox, I believe.

    It’s the worst list I can remember, which is saying something.

  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    Claire Fox? Why on God's green earth is an avowed IRA supporter in the Lord's List?

  • Space CoyoteSpace Coyote Registered User regular
    Packing the Lords with Brexiteers, Fox was a Brexit party MEP.

    HerrCron
  • PNASPNAS Registered User regular
    Claire Fox? Why on God's green earth is an avowed IRA supporter in the Lord's List?

    Well one managed to be leader of the Labour Party.

  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    PNAS wrote: »
    Claire Fox? Why on God's green earth is an avowed IRA supporter in the Lord's List?

    Well one managed to be leader of the Labour Party.

    Corbyn didn’t call the the Warrington bombing “necessary”. Flippin’ heck.

    Solar
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Corbyn wasn't an "avowed IRA supporter" but Claire Fox definitely is

    That said, it's more just that she's a nutter. She has mad views. She shouldn't be anywhere near anything.

  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited August 1
    The good law project's application for judicial review of a contract award to a Cummings associate on the grounds of what the actual fuck



    This pertains to an £840,000 contract award, without competition or public tender, to Public First for marketing an comms activity. The main thrust is:
    - nobody within the industry can conceive of what the government could possibly be buying for that amount of money given the stated explanation
    - nobody within the industry is comfortable raising this, because of the expectation of government reprisal and a general sense that if public contracts are a large part of your business, then you're in trouble given that this government appears to be explicitly favouring arbitrary selection and non-competitive tenders over public procurement
    - there is discomfort within the civil service about political interference in the normal workings of public procurement
    - the government's professed justification of extreme urgency doesn't make sense in the context of a six month marketing project (urgency is a permissible rationale for acting outside procurement rules, and you may recall the use of this justification from previous procurements carried out by this government such as the grayling ferries, and contacts for PPE which nobody is able to determine was ever actually delivered)

    Time to break out the popcorn

    japan on
    Rhesus PositiveAntinumericBethrynaltidCasualJazzElldrenZilla360SporkAndrew
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    The good law project's application for judicial review of a contract award to a Cummings associate on the grounds of what the actual fuck



    This pertains to an £840,000 contract award, without competition or public tender, to Public First for marketing an comms activity. The main thrust is:
    - nobody within the industry can conceive of what the government could possibly be buying for that amount of money given the stated explanation
    - nobody within the industry is comfortable raising this, because of the expectation of government reprisal and a general sense that if public contracts are a large part of your business, then you're in trouble given that this government appears to be explicitly favouring arbitrary selection and non-competitive tenders over public procurement
    - there is discomfort within the civil service about political interference in the normal workings of public procurement
    - the government's professed justification of extreme urgency doesn't make sense in the context of a six month marketing project (urgency is a permissible rationale for acting outside procurement rules, and you may recall the use of this justification from previous procurements carried out by this government such as the grayling ferries, and contacts for PPE which nobody is able to determine was ever actually delivered)

    Time to break out the popcorn

    More than just the Government, there's also a specific individual who hasn't been named.
    'the individual they think procured the award of the contract to Public First has "a reputation for making life impossible for anyone who stands against him."'

  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    edited August 1
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    More than just the Government, there's also a specific individual who hasn't been named.
    'the individual they think procured the award of the contract to Public First has "a reputation for making life impossible for anyone who stands against him."'

    Can we narrow that down a bit? I can think of four or five people this might be referring to off the top of my head.
    edit: And it's only that low because they used 'him', taking a few names off the table.

    klemming on
    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/01/former-minister-arrested-sexual-assault-charge
    A Conservative MP has been arrested after police received allegations of rape, sexual assault and coercive control.

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Has this person been named anywhere yet?

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • LordSolarMachariusLordSolarMacharius Red wine with fish Registered User regular
    No, as they haven't been charged with anything yet.

    (There are enough details that there's some pretty narrow speculative lists, but... internet sleuths have a terrible track record, so I don't see the benefit...)

    ElldrenZilla360
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    No, as they haven't been charged with anything yet.

    (There are enough details that there's some pretty narrow speculative lists, but... internet sleuths have a terrible track record, so I don't see the benefit...)

    There rarely is any benefit to internet sleuthing

    Especially for things that should become public knowledge in relatively short order

    fuck gendered marketing
    monikerCouscousZilla360Gnome-InterruptusLordSolarMacharius
  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Inevitably twitter seems to have collectively decided who it is

    Although, I don't know how much of that is being driven by "Ah, I see that [name] is trending, I wonder why that could be..." type messages, because that seems somewhat self reinforcing

  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Not naming the fella seems counter-productive to me, as it just makes the nation play Which MP Seems Most Rapey

    Nobody comes off well in that game

  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Not naming the fella seems counter-productive to me, as it just makes the nation play Which MP Seems Most Rapey

    Nobody comes off well in that game

    I mean the Graun would be on the hook for a very clear-cut case of defamation if they named him and he wasn’t charged so

    fuck gendered marketing
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    I only saw people making comparisons to the Alex Salmond accusations and trial. Which were all highly public unlike this case involving a Tory ex-minister.

  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Problem with playing this guessing game with the Tories is you're a bit spoilt for choice.

    Commander ZoomMojo_JojoCasualSporkAndrewZilla360
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    tynic wrote: »
    Problem with playing this guessing game with the Tories is you're a bit spoilt for choice.

    I've resisted so far, fearing the joke would be in poor taste, but ever since it was first posted I've been looking at klemming's directly above:
    klemming wrote: »
    Can we narrow that down a bit? I can think of four or five people this might be referring to off the top of my head.

    steam_sig.png
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    tynic
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Obviously, do not name who you think it might be because you read it on Twitter, as that would be legally unwise.

    japanCommander ZoomKarljaziekmoniker
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    Inevitably twitter seems to have collectively decided who it is

    Although, I don't know how much of that is being driven by "Ah, I see that [name] is trending, I wonder why that could be..." type messages, because that seems somewhat self reinforcing

    Based on that, it's either Tracey Beaker or Star Wars

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    I firmly believe in the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". No matter my personal inclination to assume the worst of the person whose name is doing the rounds and of Tory MP's in general I don't want to live in a world where mob justice can destroy someone based on an as yet unproven accusation. I certainly don't think it's a good idea to be able to destroy politicians on a whim, that would fatally undermine the entire democratic system.

    All that said, it's disgusting this guy hasn't been suspended yet as a matter of public safety until the police investigation can get to the bottom of it. If you were a teacher or a nurse or anything else pretty much and you were accused of a violent rape you wouldn't be back at work the next day like nothing happened. If you're living in a Tory constituency right now and you want to exercise your democratic right to go to your MP's office, there's a non-zero chance you're exposing yourself to a violent rapist.

    In what other walk of life would that be permitted to happen?

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
    CampymonikerGnome-InterruptusLord_Asmodeus
  • BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    Is there a way to suspend someone who cannot be named without making it explicitly clear who it is?

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    edited August 3
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Is there a way to suspend someone who cannot be named without making it explicitly clear who it is?

    Now, today after all this shit has blown up? Probably not. They don't have to say why they're suspending him but it would be pretty obvious. However, back in January when this was first brought to the Tory whips and JRM this could absolutely been handled on the down low. We are where we are because the victim was forced to go public after the Tories sat on the accusation for seven months, evidently hoping it would go away.

    In any case protecting the guys identity is a distant second priority to making sure his co-workers and members of the public aren't being put at risk.

    E: Slight clarification the incident is alleged to have taken place in January. Chief whip Mark Spencer has been aware of it since April, so the point stands.

    Casual on
    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
    altidRhesus Positivemoniker
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Nope, but they don't have to state why the person is suspended. Likewise, they can reveal it by using parliamentary privilege if they wish.

  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    edited August 3
    Tomorrow is the Scottish exam results day



    (James McEnaney is an education journalist for the Herald and others, and a current teacher in an FE college)

    These will be the results that are teacher-submitted estimates "adjusted" by the SQA. There are rumours flying that some of the adjustments are wildly different from expectation (teachers get advance notice of the published results, but cannot disclose them).

    The SQA has refused to disclose the methodology by which the adjustments have been made.

    japan on
  • AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    I've been reading some Pratchett recently and a passage reminded me of the giant lorry park they are planning on building outside Ashford (coincidentally just down the road from where I was married), and of the impending import/export crisis.

    Spoilers for Night Watch
    In a few hours the shops out there were expecting deliveries, and they weren’t going to arrive. The government couldn’t sit this one out. A city like Ankh-Morpork was only two meals away from chaos at the best of times. Every day, maybe a hundred cows died for Ankh-Morpork. So did a flock of sheep and a herd of pigs and the gods alone knew how many ducks, chickens and geese. Flour? He’d heard it was eighty tons, and about the same amount of potatoes and maybe twenty tons of herring. He didn’t particularly want to know this kind of thing, but once you started having to sort out the everlasting traffic problem these were facts that got handed to you. Every day, forty thousand eggs were laid for the city. Every day, hundreds, thousands of carts and boats and barges converged on the city with fish and honey and oysters and olives and eels and lobsters. And then think of the horses dragging this stuff, and the windmills… and the wool coming in, too, every day, the cloth, the tobacco, the spices, the ore, the timber, the cheese, the coal, the fat, the tallow, the hay EVERY DAMN DAY… And that was now. Back home, the city was twice as big… [...] Was anyone else out there thinking about this? A lot of the stuff came in through the Onion Gate and the Shambling Gate, both now Republican and solidly locked. There’d be a military picket on them, surely. Right now, there were carts on the way that’d find those gates closed to them. Yet no matter what the politics, eggs hatch and milk sours and herds of driven animals need penning and watering and where was that going to happen? Would the military sort it out? Well, would they? While the carts rumbled up, and then were hemmed in by the carts behind, and the pigs escaped and the cattle herds wandered off? Was anyone important thinking about this? Suddenly the machine was wobbling, but Winder and his cronies didn’t think about the machine, they thought about money. Meat and drink came from servants. They happened. Vetinari, Vimes realized, thought about this sort of thing all the time. The Ankh-Morpork back home was twice as big and four times as vulnerable. He wouldn’t have let something like this happen. Little wheels must spin so that the machine can turn, he’d say. But now, in the dark, it all spun on Vimes. If the man breaks down, it all breaks down, he thought. The whole machine breaks down. And it goes on breaking down. And it breaks down the people.

    Per this article https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford there are 11,500 lorries a day passing through Dover. That is a colossal number of checks they will need to do. I hope the local petrol stations are expanding their disel storage, imagine the costs of running a refrigerated lorry overnight, how much disel will be consumed, how much pollution. Leaving aside the loss of wildlife from paving over this fallow land.

    The governments efforts just feel so slapdash, like they don't believe they'll have to do anything, or that it is actually happening. Let alone the consequences.

    In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
    BethrynJazzmonikerSharpyVIItynicCommander ZoomRhesus PositiveLord_Asmodeusautono-wally, erotibot300FencingsaxLokarnGiantGeek2020Zilla360Mahnmut
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    I've been reading some Pratchett recently and a passage reminded me of the giant lorry park they are planning on building outside Ashford (coincidentally just down the road from where I was married), and of the impending import/export crisis.

    Spoilers for Night Watch
    In a few hours the shops out there were expecting deliveries, and they weren’t going to arrive. The government couldn’t sit this one out. A city like Ankh-Morpork was only two meals away from chaos at the best of times. Every day, maybe a hundred cows died for Ankh-Morpork. So did a flock of sheep and a herd of pigs and the gods alone knew how many ducks, chickens and geese. Flour? He’d heard it was eighty tons, and about the same amount of potatoes and maybe twenty tons of herring. He didn’t particularly want to know this kind of thing, but once you started having to sort out the everlasting traffic problem these were facts that got handed to you. Every day, forty thousand eggs were laid for the city. Every day, hundreds, thousands of carts and boats and barges converged on the city with fish and honey and oysters and olives and eels and lobsters. And then think of the horses dragging this stuff, and the windmills… and the wool coming in, too, every day, the cloth, the tobacco, the spices, the ore, the timber, the cheese, the coal, the fat, the tallow, the hay EVERY DAMN DAY… And that was now. Back home, the city was twice as big… [...] Was anyone else out there thinking about this? A lot of the stuff came in through the Onion Gate and the Shambling Gate, both now Republican and solidly locked. There’d be a military picket on them, surely. Right now, there were carts on the way that’d find those gates closed to them. Yet no matter what the politics, eggs hatch and milk sours and herds of driven animals need penning and watering and where was that going to happen? Would the military sort it out? Well, would they? While the carts rumbled up, and then were hemmed in by the carts behind, and the pigs escaped and the cattle herds wandered off? Was anyone important thinking about this? Suddenly the machine was wobbling, but Winder and his cronies didn’t think about the machine, they thought about money. Meat and drink came from servants. They happened. Vetinari, Vimes realized, thought about this sort of thing all the time. The Ankh-Morpork back home was twice as big and four times as vulnerable. He wouldn’t have let something like this happen. Little wheels must spin so that the machine can turn, he’d say. But now, in the dark, it all spun on Vimes. If the man breaks down, it all breaks down, he thought. The whole machine breaks down. And it goes on breaking down. And it breaks down the people.

    Per this article https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford there are 11,500 lorries a day passing through Dover. That is a colossal number of checks they will need to do. I hope the local petrol stations are expanding their disel storage, imagine the costs of running a refrigerated lorry overnight, how much disel will be consumed, how much pollution. Leaving aside the loss of wildlife from paving over this fallow land.

    The governments efforts just feel so slapdash, like they don't believe they'll have to do anything, or that it is actually happening. Let alone the consequences.

    Governments around the world, even more effective ones, are seemingly paralyzed in recent times by the concept that things may have to actually change long term to deal with changes which occur in the world. Brexit happened, and things need to actually change. There can be a post Brexit UK, but only if people accept that it will be a bit different from the pre Brexit UK. Gigantic parking lots for lorries are the least of this.

    Brexit should have been our warning shot for something like Coronavirus. The UK government has hugely improved its response since the early days of 'just ignore it and it will go away', but there seems to be little appetite to actually communicate to the public, and make plans to enable, that things are different now and may be for many months or even years. Brexit, Coronavirus, Climate Change etc. Things can be done, our society can weather the blow, a little different than before, but still here and still a happy place to be. But, they all require a long term change to how we live. Things that made sense before, no longer do. And thats where we are falling down. We're doing the 'critical' things, but not communicating to people the complex long term things.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
    Commander ZoomAntinumericFencingsaxGiantGeek2020Zilla360
  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    This is very pertinent to the current conversation:



    Faisal is a BBC economics editor.

    I'm finding it very hard to not have a breakdown worrying about the effects of a no deal Brexit on my family and we're not a vulnerable family!

    MorganVAntinumericBethrynautono-wally, erotibot300JazzGiantGeek2020Zilla360
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited August 3
    tbloxham wrote: »
    I've been reading some Pratchett recently and a passage reminded me of the giant lorry park they are planning on building outside Ashford (coincidentally just down the road from where I was married), and of the impending import/export crisis.

    Spoilers for Night Watch
    In a few hours the shops out there were expecting deliveries, and they weren’t going to arrive. The government couldn’t sit this one out. A city like Ankh-Morpork was only two meals away from chaos at the best of times. Every day, maybe a hundred cows died for Ankh-Morpork. So did a flock of sheep and a herd of pigs and the gods alone knew how many ducks, chickens and geese. Flour? He’d heard it was eighty tons, and about the same amount of potatoes and maybe twenty tons of herring. He didn’t particularly want to know this kind of thing, but once you started having to sort out the everlasting traffic problem these were facts that got handed to you. Every day, forty thousand eggs were laid for the city. Every day, hundreds, thousands of carts and boats and barges converged on the city with fish and honey and oysters and olives and eels and lobsters. And then think of the horses dragging this stuff, and the windmills… and the wool coming in, too, every day, the cloth, the tobacco, the spices, the ore, the timber, the cheese, the coal, the fat, the tallow, the hay EVERY DAMN DAY… And that was now. Back home, the city was twice as big… [...] Was anyone else out there thinking about this? A lot of the stuff came in through the Onion Gate and the Shambling Gate, both now Republican and solidly locked. There’d be a military picket on them, surely. Right now, there were carts on the way that’d find those gates closed to them. Yet no matter what the politics, eggs hatch and milk sours and herds of driven animals need penning and watering and where was that going to happen? Would the military sort it out? Well, would they? While the carts rumbled up, and then were hemmed in by the carts behind, and the pigs escaped and the cattle herds wandered off? Was anyone important thinking about this? Suddenly the machine was wobbling, but Winder and his cronies didn’t think about the machine, they thought about money. Meat and drink came from servants. They happened. Vetinari, Vimes realized, thought about this sort of thing all the time. The Ankh-Morpork back home was twice as big and four times as vulnerable. He wouldn’t have let something like this happen. Little wheels must spin so that the machine can turn, he’d say. But now, in the dark, it all spun on Vimes. If the man breaks down, it all breaks down, he thought. The whole machine breaks down. And it goes on breaking down. And it breaks down the people.

    Per this article https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford there are 11,500 lorries a day passing through Dover. That is a colossal number of checks they will need to do. I hope the local petrol stations are expanding their disel storage, imagine the costs of running a refrigerated lorry overnight, how much disel will be consumed, how much pollution. Leaving aside the loss of wildlife from paving over this fallow land.

    The governments efforts just feel so slapdash, like they don't believe they'll have to do anything, or that it is actually happening. Let alone the consequences.

    Governments around the world, even more effective ones, are seemingly paralyzed in recent times by the concept that things may have to actually change long term to deal with changes which occur in the world. Brexit happened, and things need to actually change. There can be a post Brexit UK, but only if people accept that it will be a bit different from the pre Brexit UK. Gigantic parking lots for lorries are the least of this.

    Brexit should have been our warning shot for something like Coronavirus. The UK government has hugely improved its response since the early days of 'just ignore it and it will go away', but there seems to be little appetite to actually communicate to the public, and make plans to enable, that things are different now and may be for many months or even years. Brexit, Coronavirus, Climate Change etc. Things can be done, our society can weather the blow, a little different than before, but still here and still a happy place to be. But, they all require a long term change to how we live. Things that made sense before, no longer do. And thats where we are falling down. We're doing the 'critical' things, but not communicating to people the complex long term things.

    I'd say the problem we have is that almost nothing about Brexit is about the end goal, it's all about the process of it happening. That's where the money is and that's when you can tell immigrants to get out, the people who care about Brexit don't care about what happens after that.
    The consequences for this are just that, consequences of doing the things we wanted/apparently voted to do - separate from the main goal.

    Tastyfish on
    AntinumericFencingsax
  • Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    It's probably one of the main reasons Dominic Cummings is quickly building up an entirely new press and PR operation within Downing Street. He can see the oncoming storm and is building a machine to weather it.

    Tory-linked PR firm granted £3m Covid-19 contract without tender
    The political communications company behind the Conservative party’s controversial 2019 digital campaign strategy received a £3m government contract to work on Covid-19 messaging without a competitive tender and is negotiating with the Cabinet Office for more work, the Guardian and openDemocracy can reveal.

    No 10 criticised over drive to recruit White House-style spokesperson
    Downing Street is being accused by Labour of flouting Whitehall rules to hire a new White House-style spokesperson to host daily government press conferences on live TV.

    A new special adviser is being recruited to reply to questions from journalists including rebuffing criticisms from opposition politicians.

    If we think shit's bad now, just wait.

    Antinumeric
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Yes, copy America, it's working fine.

    For the "shortly before it all exploded, it was working fine" definition of "working fine"

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    MorganVTicaldfjamLucedesaltidJazzGiantGeek2020Zilla360
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    Yes, copy America, it's working fine.

    For the "shortly before it all exploded, it was working fine" definition of "working fine"

    We're tired of all the winning. You will be, too.

    Commander ZoomTicaldfjamLucedesQanamilGiantGeek2020
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    I've been reading some Pratchett recently and a passage reminded me of the giant lorry park they are planning on building outside Ashford (coincidentally just down the road from where I was married), and of the impending import/export crisis.

    Spoilers for Night Watch
    In a few hours the shops out there were expecting deliveries, and they weren’t going to arrive. The government couldn’t sit this one out. A city like Ankh-Morpork was only two meals away from chaos at the best of times. Every day, maybe a hundred cows died for Ankh-Morpork. So did a flock of sheep and a herd of pigs and the gods alone knew how many ducks, chickens and geese. Flour? He’d heard it was eighty tons, and about the same amount of potatoes and maybe twenty tons of herring. He didn’t particularly want to know this kind of thing, but once you started having to sort out the everlasting traffic problem these were facts that got handed to you. Every day, forty thousand eggs were laid for the city. Every day, hundreds, thousands of carts and boats and barges converged on the city with fish and honey and oysters and olives and eels and lobsters. And then think of the horses dragging this stuff, and the windmills… and the wool coming in, too, every day, the cloth, the tobacco, the spices, the ore, the timber, the cheese, the coal, the fat, the tallow, the hay EVERY DAMN DAY… And that was now. Back home, the city was twice as big… [...] Was anyone else out there thinking about this? A lot of the stuff came in through the Onion Gate and the Shambling Gate, both now Republican and solidly locked. There’d be a military picket on them, surely. Right now, there were carts on the way that’d find those gates closed to them. Yet no matter what the politics, eggs hatch and milk sours and herds of driven animals need penning and watering and where was that going to happen? Would the military sort it out? Well, would they? While the carts rumbled up, and then were hemmed in by the carts behind, and the pigs escaped and the cattle herds wandered off? Was anyone important thinking about this? Suddenly the machine was wobbling, but Winder and his cronies didn’t think about the machine, they thought about money. Meat and drink came from servants. They happened. Vetinari, Vimes realized, thought about this sort of thing all the time. The Ankh-Morpork back home was twice as big and four times as vulnerable. He wouldn’t have let something like this happen. Little wheels must spin so that the machine can turn, he’d say. But now, in the dark, it all spun on Vimes. If the man breaks down, it all breaks down, he thought. The whole machine breaks down. And it goes on breaking down. And it breaks down the people.

    Per this article https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford there are 11,500 lorries a day passing through Dover. That is a colossal number of checks they will need to do. I hope the local petrol stations are expanding their disel storage, imagine the costs of running a refrigerated lorry overnight, how much disel will be consumed, how much pollution. Leaving aside the loss of wildlife from paving over this fallow land.

    The governments efforts just feel so slapdash, like they don't believe they'll have to do anything, or that it is actually happening. Let alone the consequences.

    Governments around the world, even more effective ones, are seemingly paralyzed in recent times by the concept that things may have to actually change long term to deal with changes which occur in the world. Brexit happened, and things need to actually change. There can be a post Brexit UK, but only if people accept that it will be a bit different from the pre Brexit UK. Gigantic parking lots for lorries are the least of this.

    Brexit should have been our warning shot for something like Coronavirus. The UK government has hugely improved its response since the early days of 'just ignore it and it will go away', but there seems to be little appetite to actually communicate to the public, and make plans to enable, that things are different now and may be for many months or even years. Brexit, Coronavirus, Climate Change etc. Things can be done, our society can weather the blow, a little different than before, but still here and still a happy place to be. But, they all require a long term change to how we live. Things that made sense before, no longer do. And thats where we are falling down. We're doing the 'critical' things, but not communicating to people the complex long term things.

    I'd say the problem we have is that almost nothing about Brexit is about the end goal, it's all about the process of it happening. That's where the money is and that's when you can tell immigrants to get out, the people who care about Brexit don't care about what happens after that.
    The consequences for this are just that, consequences of doing the things we wanted/apparently voted to do - separate from the main goal.

    My point is that sometimes shitty things happen, and sometimes you pick them to happen via idiocy (brexit) and sometimes a virus that is perfectly happy in bats decides to mutate and infect people and be airborne. Shitty changes happen. Whether those changes have goals or not, you need to take steps to adapt to them and to minimize the amount of adaption required. And governments around the world are loathe to say that these days.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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