[Monster Train] Ive got fire in my caboose! Mutations DLC coming 7.16!

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    I almost got my first win with the candle faction, but lost when I forgot to leave space on the third floor for my big wax lady. Oops! Leaned the hard way that Burnout stacks.

    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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  • FryFry Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    I almost got my first win with the candle faction, but lost when I forgot to leave space on the third floor for my big wax lady. Oops! Leaned the hard way that Burnout stacks.

    One simple strat to do well with that faction, is take all of the "Burn Bright" upgrades to Rector, making him a massive 150/150, and find a copy of Molded and give it Holdover. Put Rector in front on the bottom to both tank and spank. Remember to leave space on the second and third floor, so bosses have to fight through him three times.

    MNC DoverKnight_
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    i just did melting/hellhorned with an imp build

    imp build is extremely hilarious. i had two endless transcendimps, an imp in the box, and a holdover zero cost impolate which on seraph was doing over 300 damage.

    I also had two ministone consumer of crowns but seraph died to my floor of 6 imps all doing over 100 damage each from insanely high rage stacks while the front imp tanked with a billion armor.

    what a ridiculous thing.

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    FryCorp.ShephardThe Zombie PenguinElldrenMNC DoverUrQuanLord88ArcticLancer
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Imps are great.
    97F66E8D3EFD78B4B4C81DD830BAC9647342E4DF

    C20 down! Endless rage imp + Quick multistrike endless transcendimps. Which resulted in a very very very angry floor.

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Umbra/melting with a holdover retch and Resin Block is somewhat ludicrous

    just pull a half dozen lil 120 attack morsels into hand every turn

    fuck gendered marketing
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Is Retch any good? Whenever it comes up to draft, I can't get excited about it, so I haven't actually played it yet.

  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Is Retch any good? Whenever it comes up to draft, I can't get excited about it, so I haven't actually played it yet.

    It’s one of the most reliable ways to just spam out rare morsels so yes. It’s good.

    It also means you really don’t need any other morsel generators beyond a handful of initial ones. So no need to fit in morsel makers or upgrade shadesplitters or anything.

    It is not good in combination with things that give you a billion morsels tho, because then you end up just flooding your deck with them

    fuck gendered marketing
    destroyah87The Escape Goat
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Is Retch any good? Whenever it comes up to draft, I can't get excited about it, so I haven't actually played it yet.

    You need a way to prime the pump, and you need a way to get retch fast and recurr it. With those two conditonals met, it's great. But Elldren's not kidding on the morsel flood issue.

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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Is Retch any good? Whenever it comes up to draft, I can't get excited about it, so I haven't actually played it yet.

    You need a way to prime the pump, and you need a way to get retch fast and recurr it. With those two conditonals met, it's great. But Elldren's not kidding on the morsel flood issue.

    Like an ideal retch deck is very thin with a couple copies of packed morsels or similar and a holdover retch

    fuck gendered marketing
    The Zombie Penguin
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Got my first Melting win, and hoo boy, was it a silly one!

    Drafted an early Parafin Thug, thinking I could hide it behind my Champion and get some extra cash. At 20/3, I figured I'd make a little bit of cash picking off maybe 2-3 units a game. And I wasn't wrong and picked up some extra gold for the first shop. In that shop, I got offered a Large Stone. Cool!

    OK, a 35/43 could actually tank a bit and earn more coin. Well, I've got the Pyrestone Housing Artifact, so maybe I can get two more upgrades on him. Let me go ahead and reroll to see what else...

    MULTISTRIKE AND +25 HEALTH?! Oh yeah, now we're talking!

    I eventually copied my Thug and added an extra space on my floors so I could have a pair of them dropping 35x2 twice on the bottom floor. I've never had so much money. I got my Molded spells with cost reduction and Holdover just in case a Thug died. I started buying Consume on all my spells and purging every useless card in my deck.

    Two more copies later and I was virtually unstoppable. To add the icing on the cake, I found the Petrified Skull card (Purge: Kill a unit) and the Hope for Peace Artifact (Purge now becomes Consume), then I upgraded the Skull to remove Consume. LOL!

    I bought out the entire Trinket store before the final battle because I could.

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    Almost nothing got of the bottom floor, and if they did, they just clubbed to death on the second floor. The final boss got to the top floor, but ran into my Champion and another Thug.

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  • FryFry Registered User regular
    The guy who gets money whenever something dies is also hilarious. Put him in the first floor, if that's a kill zone, or put him on the top floor and put your Dregs up there to burn out for cash.

    Feeding him Morsels is, of course, lollerific.

    destroyah87Elldren
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    edited June 27
    rage never decreases + burnout 1/endless rage imp + transcendimp + endless tome cast on transcendimp also extremely funny.

    had a random 10 damage unit hitting for 300 at the end of the seraph fight, every time i summoned the transcendimp it was casting rage 3 like 15 times. i gave melting/hellhorned a shot randomly and the reform synergy with imp builds feels pretty strong.

    Knight_ on
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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited June 27
    Honestly, the more i play, the more i feel like Hellhorned is the weakest faction (outside of doing Imp things, which are really strong). None of their demons are that amazing - the best relies on imps, the second best works better with imps anyway (Rage buffer guy, given imprecursion is the best way i've found to get Rage). Their leader is pretty crud. Even their spells are so-so - there's some nice ones, but they're mostly overcosted, only work with imps, or are just plain better as support for other factions.

    Oh well, the other 4 factions all feel pretty great to play.

    One thing i will complain about: they need to re-do the bosses. Having the same boss visuals but different mechanics is just pointlessly confusing. This is one thing that i dont get why they didnt copy StS (other than art cost, i guess).

    Whatever, C21 down. This is way easier than StS is, by a very notable margin.
    FA94BA38199B94FCE6CAE1C0BCD4A50278F998EF

    simple Frost deck, with awoken healing to keep the Coldcelias alive long enough. Double energy to benefit all the spell slinging it wanted to do. Seraph was the consume spells, but that was no big - once i got some frost on him, duplicating it was no issue, and he died before he could get off the first floor.

    The Zombie Penguin on
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  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    edited June 27
    Stygian leader really needs a health buff. There are so many circle 1 and 2 fights that just... you can’t even cast her.

    akjak on
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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    2nd Candle faction win off the back of this BIG BOI!

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    A 5-space, 23x2 quick atk/48hp unit that summons two 19x2 quick atk/44hp units that summon four 17x2 quick atk/42hp units is fairly busted. Oddly, it's kind of weak during the mob phases since 23x2 isn't much to some tanky units, but absolutely wrecks the boss phase. My Lady of the Reformed/Champion took care of the rest.

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  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    legion of wax is deffo a boss killer, usually just leave it on the top floor as a break glass in case boss wrecks your shit and he can clean up almost always.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
    MNC Dover
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    I had a silly run where I put the unit upgrade for Burnout 1 on my Legion of Wax, then I would Dripfall it behind my tank, and Molded to bring back the main version.

    Not at all efficient, mind you, but it was hilarious

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure that you can't gold a card through shared challenges, but if you want a super easy Stygian/Awoken C1 run that has Bone Dog's Favor to mark that off in the log book, I picked it up while I was messing around.

    FsCIecU.png

    monstertrain://challenge/StatutesMarksHints

    It was in the left cave right after Daedalus, selected Stygian consumable.

    MNC Dover
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Did not see a double stack all game, despite routing for magic shops and rerolling all of them. Still got there, though:

  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    It's weird that with all the wacky, crazy overpowered stuff you can get up to in this game, slotting 2 double stack on the same spell is where they decided to draw the line.


  • LeumasWhiteLeumasWhite New ZealandRegistered User regular
    I wonder if it's an artifact of how their keyword system works, like not being able to add holdover to something that already has it. Make it Doublestack 1 or something.

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  • Zombie HeroZombie Hero Registered User regular
    Just had my finest run. I can't remember whether my pyrestone even got hit.
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    .
    Getting Sneko Eye as your opening run with hellhorn is nice. Too bad i never saw that 10 cost Imp King, but did manage to pick up a multistrike tome and remove consume from it. Ascending/Descending floors is best way to get a super floor and i have moved a bit away from capacity upgrades as a result.

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  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Cleared Covenant 23 with Umbra/Stygians. Finally got a run where I started with the Snecko Eyequivalent.

    So I built my deck around a zero cost card, natch.
    Doublestack Holdover Immortal Trade is way better when its cost is not being randomized, but it's still damn good to spam on Trample Penumbra.

    Largestone Allied Construct being fed by a pair of Morselmakers cleaned up normal enemies that made it past. Bosses couldn't get past Penumbra.

    Also I got a late Cuttlebeard that did nothing but cheer me on. Next time, friend!

    Zombie HeroMNC Dover
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    edited June 29
    Oh jeez. Just started an Umbra/Remnant run, where my starting artifact choice is Resin Block vs Flickers Liquor. You can't expect me to make that choice right at the outset, game :0

    Edit: took the liquor. Quickly got a Shadow Siege. Gave it multi strike. Duplicated Engulfed in Smoke with Holdover a whole bunch. Shadowsiege had 40 stacks of Stealth when Seraph came to play. GG

    Fry on
    ElldrenThe Zombie Penguin
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    I genuinely can't help but wonder how much weaker Umbra would be if they had as many units as all the other clans. Every other clan has like 12-13, but they're sitting back at 8, and half of them can carry a floor, so you're almost always going to get something usable from their drafts and not like, two niche totems or a pair of imps.

  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    I genuinely can't help but wonder how much weaker Umbra would be if they had as many units as all the other clans. Every other clan has like 12-13, but they're sitting back at 8, and half of them can carry a floor, so you're almost always going to get something usable from their drafts and not like, two niche totems or a pair of imps.

    Yeah, i wish the game had a few more fights, and a bit less chaff in your deck to start with (esp at high asc). I often feel like i'm mostly just playing for removes/ways to accelrate my card draw than i am actually making interesting choices on my drafting. You just start with waaay too much chaff, and as you've noted, there's a lot of chaff units you get offered vs the amount of drafting you get to do.

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  • FryFry Registered User regular
    edited June 29
    You don't get that many unit-specific drafts in a typical run. And the faction design is "make a huge monster or two and feed them morsels" so it would be awful if you couldn't reasonably get one. So I think I'm ok with it. Edit: especially since Shadowsiege requires some specific setup to work at all, he's often a glorified Deadweight. Edit 2: I haven't paid that much attention; does unit draft select from both of your clans, or just the main?

    Agreed that I would like to start with less chaff; it's frustrating that you don't even get to see all of your starting deck before the first boss shows up. Maybe cut the purge sites down to removing one card at a time as well to maintain balance.

    Fry on
  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    This game is pretty good.

    The melting spell kill one of yours to kill one of theirs doesn't actually need to kill one of yours. That was a surprise.

    The decks feel larger than the card count. Theres been a few times I'm waiting on cards to show up that don't. Oh wait, my holdover cards are taking up the draw slots.

    And I killed myself one game. Had maxed out Trample Umbra and 6 space for him. Forgot I had the artifact that makes morsel miners turn one and didn't draw a spell that could target one of them...

    FryMNC Dover
  • Zombie HeroZombie Hero Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Hellhorn starting out with Sketches of Salvation, you say? Oh, and a 5x copy event?
    Choo Choo!jj0xn7ui3va5.jpg

    Zombie Hero on
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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    C24 down.

    Honestly, this game needs some serious balancing. Makes me appreciate StS's balancing all the more.

    Too much chaff gets shoved into your deck by covenant and the cov system itself is just not great. It's just too swingy overall, which is a product of how few times you're actually allowed to make choices. So if you get offered good/syngerestic choices, sweet! You're going to roll. You don't? Your deck will implode. That and the fact that arrangement of units matters so much (and often isnt clear how things will function - perfect information this is not) does not help.

    Maybe i'm being too down it! *grumpy face*

    Anyway, here's my last two winning runs
    51802FA74B7910DACCE1E0F71EDAFF4DCBC9EE5464204B86C09BCEA737C6473126230E71965CDCCE

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  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    There are quite a few pieces of RNG that could use some work. Like, the length of encounters and the size/draw speed of your deck means that if you can't play a unit when you draw it, you pretty much just don't get to play it.

    I would like one more guaranteed unit draft spot. Too often it's like, I got offered two damage dealers and i need a tank. I guess I can put some health on one and hope for the best?

    Also, whatever they do to channel song to make sure I only draw it once all of my guys are out of my deck could use a change.


  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    BSoB wrote: »
    There are quite a few pieces of RNG that could use some work. Like, the length of encounters and the size/draw speed of your deck means that if you can't play a unit when you draw it, you pretty much just don't get to play it.

    I would like one more guaranteed unit draft spot. Too often it's like, I got offered two damage dealers and i need a tank. I guess I can put some health on one and hope for the best?

    Also, whatever they do to channel song to make sure I only draw it once all of my guys are out of my deck could use a change.

    Yeah - like, in StS, i feel like i have a choice about card removal (it helps that transform events are a thing/fairly commonly too, rather than... just one event). In this - well, even with their dedicated artifact train stewards are useless. Mainly because of how the upgrade system works out meaning you're incentivized to upgrade a unit and then dupe it.

    In this, you get a TON of cruft, so you basically need to burn removes on getting rid of all the train servants, and most of your starter spells (Because outside of specific lucky combinations, stuff like Torch is just useless).

    Grrgh. It's super frustrating, because the game is good overall, but there's all this... stuff around the edges that are making it a pretty frustrating experience. At this point, i'm going to clear C25 and shelve it, i think - maybe i'll clear C25 with all factions and shelve it.

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  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    Yeah. The relic balance is a bit off. Some relics have easy synergy or are always effective. Others are just plain bad.

    Reward balance skews in favor of copying cards really hard. The balance between random frost cave events is a bit rough. Some of these things though... well rogue-likes should have some variance in reward potency. Perfect balance isn't really the goal. But I do think that the method of getting value out of rewards is a bit restrictive right now and better support for more niche builds/styles would help a lot.

    Slay the Spire has had years of balance iteration and frankly Monster Train has done an incredible job on release. It's been a blast climbing and learning the many clans and interactions. Hopefully the mutators and things they have been talking about will give the "end game" experience even more legs. It's pretty good right now... just perhaps the overall strategy you apply later on feels a bit set in stone.

    Heh, it's so hard to talk about a game that you've been playing too much of without sounding negative. I guess it's like anything you study too long... eventually you only see the imperfections and not what keeps bringing you back.

  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Bluntly, i doubt mutations are going to help. I think they'll just make things more wacky and random, which is... not an area i feel MT is lacking in.

    (Also, i disagree - i have played sts for 2.6k hours, and have very few complaints and a lot of good to say about it! other than i want the Silent class redesigned. But i've lost that argument with the devs, so hey =P)

    Persoanlly, i think it honestly needs another fight in the seraph act before seraph, and probably 2-3 more fights total (Tone down rewards and scale of fights as nesscaery). Give a few more chances for rewards. Cut out the level of chaff that's forced on you (Another area i think they could learn from StS - the forced curse there auto-removes once it's been through your hand once. Also, they need to change up how status cards are applied. Status cards going ontop of your deck should be a rare, brutal thing - not the default it is in this). Give relics a clear sense of rarity, and cost them/access to them appropriately. Run defining relics like Voltaile Gauge or Split Anvil should not be costing as much as "Might switch the order in which units get into the train"

    Honestly, while they're at it - Bump Toch's numbers by 1. It's SO BAD.

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
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  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Maybe I'm playing the game wrong, but I almost always end up routing away from Copy Card locations. I'm usually struggling to get something good enough to want to copy, and/or desperately need to get garbage out of my deck.

    My C24 win did feature a smoke that had been replicated a few times, but that is because that thing is ridiculous (and I had already gotten Shadowsiege, a combo to play it, and an upgrade for it)

    I haven't seen the copy 5x event in forever. I am always afraid it's going to pop up early in a run where I don't have anything worth copying.

  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Honestly, the more i play, the more i feel like Hellhorned is the weakest faction (outside of doing Imp things, which are really strong). None of their demons are that amazing - the best relies on imps, the second best works better with imps anyway (Rage buffer guy, given imprecursion is the best way i've found to get Rage). Their leader is pretty crud. Even their spells are so-so - there's some nice ones, but they're mostly overcosted, only work with imps, or are just plain better as support for other factions.

    Oh well, the other 4 factions all feel pretty great to play.

    One thing i will complain about: they need to re-do the bosses. Having the same boss visuals but different mechanics is just pointlessly confusing. This is one thing that i dont get why they didnt copy StS (other than art cost, i guess).

    Whatever, C21 down. This is way easier than StS is, by a very notable margin.
    FA94BA38199B94FCE6CAE1C0BCD4A50278F998EF

    simple Frost deck, with awoken healing to keep the Coldcelias alive long enough. Double energy to benefit all the spell slinging it wanted to do. Seraph was the consume spells, but that was no big - once i got some frost on him, duplicating it was no issue, and he died before he could get off the first floor.
    It's kind of hilarious that I picked this up on Saturday and was already thinking this exact thing. It's nice to see you here, Penguin. ;)

    [Edit]
    Reading the posts that followed, I'm not surprised by those feelings at all. The game is certainly fun, but I overall feel like I have less agency than StS, and the chaos factor is really high.

    ArcticLancer on
    Naphtali
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    otoh, i like this game way more than StS.

    StS i found to be unfun and too punishing, and you'd just randomly get fucked constantly. maybe if you're a top tier one of these sort of player it's more fun, but for scrubs like me who play these games while watching youtube, i dropped StS before i got past the 2nd difficulty level, and i'm on level 11 or 12 in monster train.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
    FryZombie HeroMNC Dover
  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    I’m not Good at StS. Are you guys able to clear cards from your deck in some easy way?

    Yeah you start with a bunch of chaff in MT, but Strike/Defends are pretty weak too and I always end up with most of them still in my deck.

    MT it’s waaay easier to thin. You can hit the card purge things, and ALSO purge cards at the unit/spell upgrade spots.

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  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Knight_ wrote: »
    otoh, i like this game way more than StS.

    StS i found to be unfun and too punishing, and you'd just randomly get fucked constantly. maybe if you're a top tier one of these sort of player it's more fun, but for scrubs like me who play these games while watching youtube, i dropped StS before i got past the 2nd difficulty level, and i'm on level 11 or 12 in monster train.
    Yeah, so one of the things I believe is going to hold true is that StS consistently punishes people for playing into synergies. A deck needs to be able to handle a pretty wide variety of situations. I don't feel like that's true here (and also, planning in MT seems pretty hard to do because what effect any given boss is going to have is ??? until you get there?), because synergies are a lot easier to pull off with how much deck thinning and duplication there is, and it's very easy to power up exactly the cards you need to. MT seems much, much easier to generate absolutely overpowering combos.
    For the games to attract different players would not surprise me in the least.

    ArcticLancer on
    akjak
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    The different boss variants have different icons on the map, although the iconography is hard for me to read. You can figure out which versions of Daedalus and Fel you will be facing with some effort (and they explicitly tell you which Seraph you will be facing at the beginning, and the icon/hover text for Seraph is on every screen).

    Would be nice, if they're going to show different icons for Daedalus and Fel, if they also gave you hover text explainers for them.

    ArcticLancerMoridin889
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