[Monster Train] Ive got fire in my caboose! Mutations DLC coming 7.16!

189101214

Posts

  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Got my first win on Covenant 25, with Hellhorned/Melting, so I got to see the credits roll. I like giving the Prince one Multistrike and two Slay->ATK upgrades. I will say that Hornbreaker Prince is OK, because he can be even more of a beater than Penumbra or Rector, but holy moly do you have to babysit him to get there. You want to have a lot of effects that can move units around, both yours and the enemy, and an HP sponge to stick in front of Prince and/or a steady stream of chumps to throw in front of him, because he is way squishy. March of Shields was my MVP, and my two starting copies of Hidden Passage were both quite helpful. Cost reductions on all of those (and Holdover on March of Shields) helped so I could keep doing other stuff while babysitting the Prince.

  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    Both the Hellhorned and Stygian leaders need to be less squishy. One sweep enemy and your run is just ended

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Stygians and Hellhorned also have a problem where they have multiple units in their pool that are barely better than Train Stewards (maybe even worse, because the Train Steward artifact doesn't work with them)

    If they're going to keep those iffy units, would be interesting if they sometimes got swapped into the starter deck, either for clan spells or for stewards.

    Hellhorned could really use a spell like Vine Grasp from the awoken. Maybe change it to move a unit forward one space, deal one damage, still zero cost.

    Fry on
    Auralynx
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    akjak wrote: »
    I’m not Good at StS. Are you guys able to clear cards from your deck in some easy way?

    Yeah you start with a bunch of chaff in MT, but Strike/Defends are pretty weak too and I always end up with most of them still in my deck.

    MT it’s waaay easier to thin. You can hit the card purge things, and ALSO purge cards at the unit/spell upgrade spots.
    Knight_ wrote: »
    otoh, i like this game way more than StS.

    StS i found to be unfun and too punishing, and you'd just randomly get fucked constantly. maybe if you're a top tier one of these sort of player it's more fun, but for scrubs like me who play these games while watching youtube, i dropped StS before i got past the 2nd difficulty level, and i'm on level 11 or 12 in monster train.

    So, to clarify something: part of the reason I'm being so hard on the game is I really do like it! There's just a bunch of frustration points popping up now that I'm smacking my head on A25.

    As to StS.... Yeah I'm probably in the top tier of players. If I'm really trying I have about a 10% win rate on A20 heartkills. Mostly I'm playing while I watch stuff though, and my win rate is all over the place as a result

    On thing: so the thing is that StS has an event that upgrades all your defends and strikes. It also has a boss relic that lets you pick 3 cards, transform them and then upgrade them (which usually translates to removing most of your strikes then turning them into good cards) another one that removes all your strikes and defends and replaces then with random cards from your pool, multiple events that purge cards, the merchant can purge cards, etc.

    Card draw is also more accessible in general, as is ways to combo off within a turn. There's a lot more access to recursion as well. I'd say on average my end run decks are 32 cards in StS. A small deck will be around 25, a fat deck where I didn't remove much if anything is 40+ (high asc incentives for having big decks, hence why even a small deck is 25)

    Combine that with your starter deck being tiny in StS (the biggest is like 15ish?) And it definitely feels like while removes are a big part of the game, they're more strategic - I'll sometimes put cards into my deck early (even upgrade them!) that I'll junk later on, simply because they're what I need to win the next floor

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    Double incant triggers as my starting relic.... hmm... I can work with that.
    ed07v9rfzjek.jpg
    That Naga has some nice attack.


    Apparently I got a new record of 1102 incant triggers that run.

    You don't say.

    BSoB on

    FryMNC DoverDonnictonArcticLancer
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Guard of the Unnamed might be my favorite Stygian unit.

  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Frostbite has a cap of 999, and that's profoundly disappointing. Get with the program devs, we need infinite scaling frostbite just like StS poison!

    (I'll handily ignore here that i think Poison is a broken mechanic in StS.... thoguh that's because Catalyst exists and triples poison, doubling is a lot less bad).

    Anyway, that's C25 done and dusted. Seraph will devour your spells? sweet, he can choke on Stings.

    Got the +Magic power for every 3 spells you play relic super early, so said what the fuck and turned my one sting into 6 thanks to the caverns event. Sting's a good draw engine!

    Then i got the Frozen Nostaglia, then i got the Thornfruit, ontop of having basically all the good Stygian spells, a Largestone Awoken Hollow, an Endless/Spiked Titan Sentry and a Healthstone/Incant Titan Sentry.

    The game turned into a faceroll at that point. Throw spikes. Draw ten cards. Draw more cards because Winged Steel and Sap Tap. Holdover Frosbite doubler. What's Seraph, and what do you mean he has +1k hp? He vaporized.

    So i guess at this point... I can keep up random/random, or attempt to clear C25 with every variation possible. Probably going to do the latter. We'll seee

    Anyway, suck it seraph.
    BF51F8BBE9A1773953EE915DEE9D1581FD7CB91C

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
    akjakErlecArcticLancer
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Seraph: This is fine
    FD193BE1A35980AB9C3A48EF5DBB02F21DF0E33D

    relic that lets you draw cards like crazy and ignore costs, while also having 7 copies of titanstooth is perfectly fine and balanced.

    Oh, no, it's not. It's broken as shit.
    E38461DA7C3AA77116B6B769611FDAC503A714B1

    Pretty sure Volatile Gauge is more broken than Snecko eye is, just given how stupid rare card draw is in this, and how stupid necessary it is.

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
    TeriferinErlec
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Heh, yay, I got the pre-final wave Seraph kill with an enjoyable frostbite spam deck.
    937srdoa7fs1.png
    This was just kind of a fun run. I really enjoy a lot of the Stygian units.

  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Yeah, i think i'm done with Monster Train for now. Maybe i'll lark around, see if there's a happy medium on lower covenant levels, but it's just too random for me - i fired StS back up to see i was just remembering things poorly, and nope, even though i wiped out on Slime boss i felt way more in control and way more easily able to identify what i did wrong and why. There's just not enough meaningful choices in MT, and it's just not fun watching your deck get drowned in status cards or similar. Add on the UI issues - Quite why things use the same graphics when they do different things depending on the boss i dont know, and it pisses me off something fierce (come on, this is like, BASIC game design).

    I really want to like it more than i do, but for now i think i need to shelve it. (To be fair, i got like 100+ hours out of it, i just have absurd standards for these things and get depressed when it feels like games arent living up to them).

    *Grumble grumble* (Also, if people ever want StS tips, feel free to poke me in the thread there? I'm happy to tutorial stream, or provide advice on digging into the game - @arcticlancer can probably vouch me! Probably!)

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
    ArcticLancer
  • MirkelMirkel FinlandRegistered User regular
    It's not really fair to compare to StS when it comes to balance, that game is basically as close to perfection as mere mortal developers can get. Most games get to "eh, good enough" and then just sort of give up on balance and that's plenty enough for more casual players too.

  • cooljammer00cooljammer00 Hey Small Christmas-Man!Registered User regular
    Monster Train was heavily inspired by Slay the Spire, but sort of comes across as an inelegant pretender.

    steam_sig.png

    3DS Friend Code: 2165-6448-8348 www.Twitch.TV/cooljammer00
    Battle.Net: JohnDarc#1203 Origin/UPlay: CoolJammer00
    The Zombie Penguin
  • NaphtaliNaphtali Null Registered User regular
    Mirkel wrote: »
    It's not really fair to compare to StS when it comes to balance, that game is basically as close to perfection as mere mortal developers can get. Most games get to "eh, good enough" and then just sort of give up on balance and that's plenty enough for more casual players too.

    STS has also been out in one form or another for nearly 3 years now; it's had a lot more time to mature.

    B.net: Naphtali#1830 | Steam | Nintendo ID: Naphtali | PSN: EI-Naphtali | Wish List
    Auralynxdestroyah87Moridin889Corp.Shephard
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited July 2
    Mirkel wrote: »
    It's not really fair to compare to StS when it comes to balance, that game is basically as close to perfection as mere mortal developers can get. Most games get to "eh, good enough" and then just sort of give up on balance and that's plenty enough for more casual players too.

    I mean, that seems like a really good reason to compare it? There's a lot you can look at in StS and go This is why it works, this is how it works, and lessons you could learn from it.

    Like, let's compare starting decks in StS vs MT

    StS

    You start with 1-2 class specific cards that are unique, and have no other sources (Outside of one event) in the game. You addtionally start with between 4-5 strikes and defends. At ascension levels past 10, you have the Ascendaner's Bane curse added to your deck, which has the Ethereal Property - or in Monster Train terms, it's a Reserve blight card that consumes itself if it's in your hand at the end of turn.

    IN general, this gives you a starting deck size of 10-11, with the Silent having the biggest at 13. This is as big as your starting deck gets no matter ascension level, outside of choosing a starting bonus that adds a single card to your deck, or a single curse.

    In monster Train, you're starting off with:

    Your unique monster.
    5 random cards drawn from your paired factions, with... i have no idea if there's a rarity mechanic at play, because if there is, it's non obvious. i /think/ there is?
    10 cards, split 50/50 from your starter factions. These are the equivalent of your unique in StS, though vastly weaker.
    Two unpurgable, unconsumable blights that you have no way to interact with outside of the rare Dante event. (Compare and contrast blue candle, Du Vu doll, and other ways of playing with curses in StS)
    4 Train Stewards, a unit that's mostly a deteriment. (Quite why you dont just get common monsters from your existing class pools, i have no idea)

    In both games, your starting card draw is 5 cards per turn. Both games also have a 10 card hand limit.
    Monster Train offers the +draw relics after bosses, but otherwise makes it very rare (And most of it is "Next turn"). StS has a lot of cantripping cards, with all four classes having some equivalent to "Defend and draw cards" accessible at common (Shrug it Off, Backflip, Coolheaded, Evaluate). Every class additionally has some sort of powerful card draw available at Uncommon, often multiple sources of it, and usually has at least one rare that offers incredibly powerful card draw, ontop of usually having a Rare Power that further bolsters card draw

    Monster Train has the Frozen buff, while StS has Runic Pyramid - a relic that effectively gives your entire deck Permafrost, as well as other ways to grant frozen. There's additionally no equivalent in Monster Train to Bag of Prepartion (You draw +2 cards in your starting hand), or Gambler's chip (Pick any number of cards in your starting hand, discard them, and draw that many.) There's no real equivalent to endless/hold over in StS (Headbutt, i guess?) - but then Monster Train has no equivalent to Hologram, All For One or Meditate (which pull cards from your discard pile and put them into your hand)

    Point is, right form the start there's a huge disparity in the value of card draw and second to that, card manipulation. People have repeatedly mentioned that it's entirely possible to not even draw your entire deck before the boss of a fight hits you in MT, while in StS a starter deck is usually drawn through by 2/turn 3. Which then snowballs further - Late game StS decks with a focus on card draw can draw their entire deck in a turn, and while i'll argue happily that Snecko Eye is ridiculously strong in StS, it's not the dominant force i've come to view it as in Monster Train.

    There are other issues as well - StS clearly has card rarities displayed, which in turn means you can make more informed drafting decisions. StS commons start off as chaff you take because you need to get through the next floor, but can become late game roll-players depending on your relic and drafting choices (the iconic example would be Coolheaded, a card that become incredibly powerful as Coolheaded+, particularly in the Frost Defect deck). Uncommons offer more notable power spikes, start to help you define your deck, but are that much more niche as a result, and rares are universally pretty damn powerful, but are very limited in their accessibility (Though there are specific mechanics you can engage with to shape your chances of seeing a rare).

    Relic rarities are less clearly displayed, but are still there, split between Common, Uncommon, Rare, Boss and Shop. Shops always sell two relics drawn from the default relic pool, and one unique shop only relic. (Additionally, the game actually populates a list of relics at the start of the game, and goes down that from the start as you hit events that reward you with X. Shops will draw their relics from the bottom of this list, meaning you can use shops as info on what relics you wont see in a run past that point)


    It's a system that could stand to be clearer in StS, but it's absolutely there and it provides the player with a huge wealth of information and choices to make. in MT, the only reason i have any inkling there's a rarity system at play is the "Rare draft pick" i'm offered... or the log book, i guess, but there's no IN RUN way to see card rarity, which is a huge issue. Heck, even going over a card in the logbook doesnt tell you what rarity it is! That's nuts!

    (...also, as creepy as it would be, why are there not shops that sell units in MT?)

    I'm being hard on this game because i really want to like it, and because it's very clearly aping one of my all time favorite games. But there are choices and decisions in where they've copied StS without seeming to understand how different their game is (Voltaile Gauge vs Snecko eye), or where they havent copied it (Rarity system UI) where i'm baffled on what's going on and why.

    also, just as a thing: i only get this agiated about game design when i'm generally really into the game, but frustrated with chunks of it. If i didn't like the game at all, i just wouldn't comment! This is my things should be the BEST THEY CAN BE! passion for stuff turning up. Hopefully that makes sense, and i super apologize if anyone feels like i'm raining on their parade

    The Zombie Penguin on
    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
    SatanIsMyMotorcooljammer00ArcticLancerTychoCelchuuu
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    edited July 2
    Took me a few runs to notice it, but card rarity is displayed right smack in the middle, like Hearthstone. I like that it's subtle enough to disappear when you aren't actively thinking about it, but it's right there when you care to look for it.

    I feel like I get the "blights give you extra Ember every turn" relic-event fairly frequently, which does work with your Deadweight. There's also one Melting Remnant card that burns your hand to make a big draff, which can get them out of your deck. But, since you usually aren't going through your deck more than once or twice anyway, I'm not that concerned about not being able to remove them.

    The fact that all monsters thin themselves out of your deck when played is also a consideration when playing with a StS mindset, that is why there needs to be so much other chaff in the starting deck.

    I agree that it does seem like there could stand to be a shop to pick up units, especially in the first couple areas, probably as a center item so you get it on either path. Flavor it as sellswords hiring out their services

    Fry on
    destroyah87AuralynxCorp.Shephard
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    I 1000% agree with you.

  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    ZP wrote:
    I'm being hard on this game because i really want to like it, and because it's very clearly aping one of my all time favorite games. But there are choices and decisions in where they've copied StS without seeming to understand how different their game is (Voltaile Gauge vs Snecko eye), or where they havent copied it (Rarity system UI) where i'm baffled on what's going on and why

    I think the enormous shadow cast by Slay The Spire is a core issue for Monster Train in a variety of ways, not least how it's being received; the comparisons are inevitable. As I and others have pointed out, they're also unfair since the current state of Slay The Spire is significantly tuned and refined and Monster Train demonstrably isn't.

    Beyond that, though, is a core design difference: Monster Train shares a lot of dna with Dominion or Ascension, probably as much as it does with Slay the Spire. The design of the game reflects an idea - gradually thinning your deck and replacing the starting chaff with better cards - that isn't really compatible with getting a few randomized reward areas. It is, however, definitely inherited from paper deck-building games.

    The difference in quality between several of the common and uncommon units and the actually-good ones is another legacy of that same heritage (and here I'm inclined to suspect Ascension and Thunderstone more than Dominion). The ramp-up in Monster Train right now is too steep to be taking the weaker units; you need one or two immediate big-deal contributors before Daedalus so you can use the rounds before Fel to thin out the messy parts of your deck.

    The developer's got a lot of good stuff to work with and tune here; on some level I think they need to make a deliberate effort to update the game to resemble Slay the Spire less, honestly. If thinning really needs to be an aggressively-important part of the game at higher levels in their mind, more opportunities to do it akin to the Railspike event and that one card that makes a giant Dreg need to be available.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

    FryTychoCelchuuu
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »

    The fact that all monsters thin themselves out of your deck when played is also a consideration when playing with a StS mindset, that is why there needs to be so much other chaff in the starting deck.

    This I disagree with hard - monsters thinning themselves out of your deck is directly equivalent to StS powers. (See also exhaust/consume cards - StS decks also self thin layer game, often quite aggressively.)

    Plus I'm not sure how that justifies there being so much chaff in your deck? You still have to draw and play said monsters to thin them, and space to play monsters is aggressively limited (that, and I belive the game has some sort of mechanic that shuffles monsters towards the top of your deck).

    There's nothing wrong, and arguably quite a lot of good by having the stater decks in MT be significantly leaner. You'd need to nerf the removal event, but that's fine - I'd rather be asked to make interesting decisions than mindless ones.

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
    Auralynx
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »

    The fact that all monsters thin themselves out of your deck when played is also a consideration when playing with a StS mindset, that is why there needs to be so much other chaff in the starting deck.

    This I disagree with hard - monsters thinning themselves out of your deck is directly equivalent to StS powers. (See also exhaust/consume cards - StS decks also self thin layer game, often quite aggressively.)

    Plus I'm not sure how that justifies there being so much chaff in your deck? You still have to draw and play said monsters to thin them, and space to play monsters is aggressively limited (that, and I belive the game has some sort of mechanic that shuffles monsters towards the top of your deck).

    There's nothing wrong, and arguably quite a lot of good by having the stater decks in MT be significantly leaner. You'd need to nerf the removal event, but that's fine - I'd rather be asked to make interesting decisions than mindless ones.

    I think StS would be a very different game if you added 4-5 powers to the starting deck, or God forbid replaced 4-5 Strikes and Defends with powers.

    I do agree that the starter decks are a little too thick at higher covenants, and the card removal location is a little too good. I'd probably remove like two copies of each clan starter spell from covenants, add a covenant that was a scrubby clan unit in the starting deck, and reduce the card removal location to be a single card. Maybe even put the card removal location in the center.

    destroyah87AuralynxCorp.Shephard
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Fry wrote: »

    The fact that all monsters thin themselves out of your deck when played is also a consideration when playing with a StS mindset, that is why there needs to be so much other chaff in the starting deck.

    This I disagree with hard - monsters thinning themselves out of your deck is directly equivalent to StS powers. (See also exhaust/consume cards - StS decks also self thin layer game, often quite aggressively.)

    Plus I'm not sure how that justifies there being so much chaff in your deck? You still have to draw and play said monsters to thin them, and space to play monsters is aggressively limited (that, and I belive the game has some sort of mechanic that shuffles monsters towards the top of your deck).

    There's nothing wrong, and arguably quite a lot of good by having the stater decks in MT be significantly leaner. You'd need to nerf the removal event, but that's fine - I'd rather be asked to make interesting decisions than mindless ones.

    I think StS would be a very different game if you added 4-5 powers to the starting deck, or God forbid replaced 4-5 Strikes and Defends with powers.

    I do agree that the starter decks are a little too thick at higher covenants, and the card removal location is a little too good. I'd probably remove like two copies of each clan starter spell from covenants, add a covenant that was a scrubby clan unit in the starting deck, and reduce the card removal location to be a single card. Maybe even put the card removal location in the center.

    There are several Hellhorned and Remnant relics that seem like they must be the refuse of a version of the game where clan units came in your starting deck. I'd very much like to see the developer swing back towards that some.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

    Fry
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Fry wrote: »

    The fact that all monsters thin themselves out of your deck when played is also a consideration when playing with a StS mindset, that is why there needs to be so much other chaff in the starting deck.

    This I disagree with hard - monsters thinning themselves out of your deck is directly equivalent to StS powers. (See also exhaust/consume cards - StS decks also self thin layer game, often quite aggressively.)

    Plus I'm not sure how that justifies there being so much chaff in your deck? You still have to draw and play said monsters to thin them, and space to play monsters is aggressively limited (that, and I belive the game has some sort of mechanic that shuffles monsters towards the top of your deck).

    There's nothing wrong, and arguably quite a lot of good by having the stater decks in MT be significantly leaner. You'd need to nerf the removal event, but that's fine - I'd rather be asked to make interesting decisions than mindless ones.

    I think StS would be a very different game if you added 4-5 powers to the starting deck, or God forbid replaced 4-5 Strikes and Defends with powers.

    I do agree that the starter decks are a little too thick at higher covenants, and the card removal location is a little too good. I'd probably remove like two copies of each clan starter spell from covenants, add a covenant that was a scrubby clan unit in the starting deck, and reduce the card removal location to be a single card. Maybe even put the card removal location in the center.

    My approach would be much the same. Drop the starting spells to 3 of each, maybe even 2 of each (part of the reasoning here is it makes spending upgrades on them more attractive if there's less of them).
    Get rid of train stewards entirely - start players with 2 common units (one from each faction) and an uncommon (randomly from either faction).

    Nerf the removal event to 1. I'd leave it on the side path, because decision points are good

    (Also make relics more accessible!)

    Make the rubble blight have reserve consume. All of that would increase the amount of interesting decisions the games asking me to make by a huge factor, and that more than anything is what I care about in games like this.

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    Pretty much the thing holding it back for me is the (1)number of choices you get being small, and (2)the card pool also feeling pretty small.

    1. is made worse by swingy, only works sometimes, usually dead cards, like Shadowsiege and Consumer of crowns. When you only get offered two units, one is literally unplayable and there are only two guaranteed unit spots it sucks so much.

    2. MT only has like 40 cards per clan, but also many of the cards are way too similar.
    Sometimes the difference is meaningful and interesting, like the difference between 25 attack and quick VS 3 attack and 2 multistrike, sometimes it's just that one sucks and it feels bad to be stuck with it. Like incant +1 armor vs incant sap, or the armor IMP being super awkward.

    I think to start, they should make the reinforcement locations a 3 choice, and add one before the first boss. Then they should rework several of the clone units to feel more like different cards from each-other.


    AuralynxThe Zombie PenguinFryMoridin889
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    edited July 2
    Those are definitely good streamlining suggestions, but they hew more towards being like StS than differentiating Monster Train from it.

    I'd rather see a whole extra tier added between Daedalus and Fel, Purge put on slightly-healthier Train Stewards, and guaranteed unit drafts on the run to Daedalus.

    More-interactive card removal would also be a bonus. This game needs cards like True Grit and Burning Pact added to at least some of the factions, more draw and discard options for Stygian, and things like that. It'd make the removal portals a lot less crucial.

    E: In fact, I want Purge to work like Burnout, but for number of times played, and I want it on a lot more cards.

    Auralynx on
    kshu0oba7xnr.png

    Fry
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Okay, purge burnout trainstewards is actually super interesting and super thematic. You'd have to make them stronger health-wise, but it'd really suit the apocalyptic final ride vibe

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
    Auralynx
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Okay, purge burnout trainstewards is actually super interesting and super thematic. You'd have to make them stronger health-wise, but it'd really suit the apocalyptic final ride vibe

    It's really only fair if you're certain to get more units in the first couple levels, but I already have few-to-no winning runs where I didn't get unit draft as a level bonus at least once before Daedalus, I believe, so locking it in is fine.

    Honestly, making the bonus goals nonrandom would probably feel better as well.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Okay, purge burnout trainstewards is actually super interesting and super thematic. You'd have to make them stronger health-wise, but it'd really suit the apocalyptic final ride vibe

    It's really only fair if you're certain to get more units in the first couple levels, but I already have few-to-no winning runs where I didn't get unit draft as a level bonus at least once before Daedalus, I believe, so locking it in is fine.

    Honestly, making the bonus goals nonrandom would probably feel better as well.

    I haven't been tracking that, but I don't think it's the case for me - I can win OK without getting a Unit Draft most of the time. At least, for three of the five factions. Hellhorned and Stygian champions need more help from other units than the other three, so I could see those clans having a significantly different win% depending on whether or not they get a unit draft.

  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Fry wrote: »
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Okay, purge burnout trainstewards is actually super interesting and super thematic. You'd have to make them stronger health-wise, but it'd really suit the apocalyptic final ride vibe

    It's really only fair if you're certain to get more units in the first couple levels, but I already have few-to-no winning runs where I didn't get unit draft as a level bonus at least once before Daedalus, I believe, so locking it in is fine.

    Honestly, making the bonus goals nonrandom would probably feel better as well.

    I haven't been tracking that, but I don't think it's the case for me - I can win OK without getting a Unit Draft most of the time. At least, for three of the five factions. Hellhorned and Stygian champions need more help from other units than the other three, so I could see those clans having a significantly different win% depending on whether or not they get a unit draft.

    It's probably relevant to say I've clawed my way to Covenant 18 trying never to repeat a faction pair and gild as many cards as possible. I am pretty sure that isn't the rest of your approach.

    I still think the value of an early draft as a level reward is disproportionate, though.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    edited July 2
    I think both of the first two reward tracks always have one reinforcement slot. Like I think the first reward track is always exactly the same. Merchant of magic + something and merchant of steel plus reinforcements.

    And the way the game works, you can never afford to not pick the merchant of steel + reinforcements track. Also the first challenge seems like you can never afford to skip it, and it doesn't threaten you in a meaningful way. So two of the first like 5 choices in the game are locked.

    BSoB on

  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    BSoB wrote: »
    I think both of the first two reward tracks always have one reinforcement slot. Like I think the first reward track is always exactly the same. Merchant of magic + something and merchant of steel plus reinforcements.

    And the way the game works, you can never afford to not pick the merchant of steel + reinforcements track. Also the first challenge seems like you can never afford to skip it, and it doesn't threaten you in a meaningful way. So two of the first like 3 choices in the game are locked.

    Nope. I'm definitely getting first-reward choices between shops where one has a unit reward and one doesn't with depressing regularity.

    Your point about the first challenge is agreed, though. The first two are basically false choices.

    Also the Wingless level-flood unit should be reworked because giving then decaying Rage but spawning them on all floors is just perverse.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

    ArcticLancer
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I'd really like to see a few more fights in the game, particularly some low stakes ones that have no boss and are just looks with a bit of coin as a reward, and no bonus.

    I actually kind of hate the bonus mechanic - it's good in theory, but it offers too much, what with the Cherub and whatever other reward. So in the end it just reinforces the games snowball issues, rather than being a risk/reward mechanic. It's not helped by them being so random - giving everything multi strike can be a huge problem or totally ignorable. Having choices of which fight to take would be great here, rather than always one fight

    @Auralynx - just wanted to say your points about the game needing to differentiate itself from StS are really good

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
    ArcticLancerakjak
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    What I'd like to see:
    • 1-2 less bad starting cards
    • 4-5 more fights w/smaller rewards
    • Split reward decisions (ie. Gain +10 Pyre HP and Purge 1 card)
    • More card/artifact support for making a viable Train Steward strat
    • Single-use non-card items (ie. Potions from StS)
    • Different reward options from the bonus challenge instead of just gold (choose from 2-3 options)
    • A high Convent level where the train gets an extra floor with more floor hopping enemies
    • A "Clanless" option where you get cards from all the clans as a RNG mess, but XP earned goes to all clans
    • More access to Artifacts, either as rewards or from buying (have a random "discounted" artifact in every store)

    A lot of these are probably bad ideas though. :biggrin:

    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
    Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
    Steam ID
    Twitch Page
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    edited July 2
    (Man, I started typing this earlier today, but then had to start work and now so much has passed since but whatever ... =_= )
    I think what really comes of the limited volume of card drafts is that with within each faction there are a lot of designed specific synergies. It makes an unreasonable (I feel, anyway) number of cards a gamble because you often risk taking dead weight on a fun or interesting card that can easily never pan out. It kind of re-enforces my feelings about how the game is catered to the "YOLO look at my sick combo!" mindset, now that I think about it.

    I think I'd be happier overall if the pre-game choice wasn't your champion and an artifact, but your champion and one of two or three "starter packs." Those could still be randomized, but give you a bit more agency in the run by at least not as often setting you up to fail? I'm on board for the game's idea of starting every run differently, but for how long it takes to accrue a few meaningful cards and how necessary that along with just duplicating them while weeding out whatever you were saddled with feels ... that's not quite as engaging as it could be? StS is constantly engaging because it asks you to figure out how to work your options into a game plan - you always start from "nothing" and make something. I wish MT would lean a bit more into the "starting with something" approach rather than "here is a handful of garbage and possibly a few playable cards."

    ArcticLancer on
    The Zombie PenguinAuralynxCorp.Shephard
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    Oh, also while we're talking about effectively secret UX elements, is there actually a way to tell how many waves are left before the boss spawns? Because as good of a sense of that as I'm getting, not actually knowing when you should be setting up for that and being a turn or two off can be death, and I don't love it.

    The Zombie Penguinakjak
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    (Man, I started typing this earlier today, but then had to start work and now so much has passed since but whatever ... =_= )
    I think what really comes of the limited volume of card drafts is that with within each faction there are a lot of designed specific synergies. It makes an unreasonable (I feel, anyway) number of cards a gamble because you often risk taking dead weight on a fun or interesting card that can easily never pan out. It kind of re-enforces my feelings about how the game is catered to the "YOLO look at my sick combo!" mindset, now that I think about it.

    I think I'd be happier overall if the pre-game choice wasn't your champion and an artifact, but your champion and one of two or three "starter packs." Those could still be randomized, but give you a bit more agency in the run by at least not as often setting you up to fail? I'm on board for the game's idea of starting every run differently, but for how long it takes to accrue a few meaningful cards and how necessary that along with just duplicating them while weeding out whatever you were saddled with feels ... that's not quite as engaging as it could be? StS is constantly engaging because it asks you to figure out how to work your options into a game plan - you always start from "nothing" and make something. I wish MT would lean a bit more into the "starting with something" approach rather than "here is a handful of garbage and possibly a few playable cards."


    The "Yolo look at my sick combo" is... def a thing in the game, though i hadn't really had words to describe it until you made that combo, so thanks for that!

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
    ArcticLancer
  • Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    Whilst I can’t disagree with any of your technical analysis, all I can say is that I enjoy MT significantly more than I enjoyed StS.

    But then I was a big fan of Binding of Isaac so ‘YOLO look at my sick combo’ clearly just does it for me.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
    The Escape GoatFry
  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Whilst I can’t disagree with any of your technical analysis, all I can say is that I enjoy MT significantly more than I enjoyed StS.

    But then I was a big fan of Binding of Isaac so ‘YOLO look at my sick combo’ clearly just does it for me.

    Which is fair! I'm definitely coming at this from the... well i have a crazy number of hours in STS and i really like system mastery, and so MT oft feels like it's taunting me - the high of everything coming together for yolo is not enoguh to make up for the lows of a run just going nowhere, or not being good enough for nebulous reasons.

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
  • Zombie HeroZombie Hero Registered User regular
    I'd sure like a chance to pick up a unit before the first level. It is crazy repetitive. (Which was also my complaint about the early levels of StS)

    Steam
    Nintendo ID: Pastalonius
    Smite\LoL:Gremlidin \ WoW & Overwatch & Hots: Gremlidin#1734
    3ds: 3282-2248-0453
    FryArcticLancer
  • akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    I feel like the runs that go the worst are when the “hard modes” on the first two battles don’t reward a unit draft.

    Sometimes you just... don’t get enough bodies. Especially when Stygian and Hellhorned bosses can’t quite stand on their own yet (in early fights)

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
    Auralynx
  • ArcticLancerArcticLancer Best served chilled. Registered User regular
    akjak wrote: »
    I feel like the runs that go the worst are when the “hard modes” on the first two battles don’t reward a unit draft.

    Sometimes you just... don’t get enough bodies. Especially when Stygian and Hellhorned bosses can’t quite stand on their own yet (in early fights)
    I had a doomed run this morning where I just didn't get any damage dealers in my drafts. Because the game scales so hard on needing to kill things, I was helplessly fucked. Died on Fel (well before the final wave) and was not surprised. There are a lot of ways that unit drafts can fuck you. <_<

  • Zombie HeroZombie Hero Registered User regular
    Finally done with Cov 25, now i can go back to Cov 1 and try and gold all the cards.
    The tried and true method of big dumb demons crowding a single floor gets me there again.f18du4y5qe74.jpg

    Steam
    Nintendo ID: Pastalonius
    Smite\LoL:Gremlidin \ WoW & Overwatch & Hots: Gremlidin#1734
    3ds: 3282-2248-0453
    ArcticLancerMNC DoverUrQuanLord88The Escape Goat
Sign In or Register to comment.