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  • Redcoat-13Redcoat-13 Registered User regular
    Gaz having a damage cap isn't a problem, because he does a bit of shooting but is mostly about combat.

    C'tan I've got an issue with, because they're capable in shooting, combat and psychic phase, as well as the fact they're healing themselves. That, as a package is too much. You've got armies that don't really have a prescence in some of those phases (I have no clue how T'au could ever kill a C'tan).

    I've got no problem with Mortarion getting a boost to survivability (he has always been a beast in terms of his damage output), but I'd rather this 3 damage cap per phase did not become more prevalent. There's other ways. Maybe he has some kind of distgustingly resilient, that if he passes, he heals the wound rather than takes it (I think there's a Tzeentch Greater Demon trait that does this?).

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  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    40k has been pretty consistent about red = fast. Evil Suns, Blood Angels, Saim Han...
    Redcoat-13 wrote: »
    Gaz having a damage cap isn't a problem, because he does a bit of shooting but is mostly about combat.

    C'tan I've got an issue with, because they're capable in shooting, combat and psychic phase, as well as the fact they're healing themselves. That, as a package is too much. You've got armies that don't really have a prescence in some of those phases (I have no clue how T'au could ever kill a C'tan).

    I've got no problem with Mortarion getting a boost to survivability (he has always been a beast in terms of his damage output), but I'd rather this 3 damage cap per phase did not become more prevalent. There's other ways. Maybe he has some kind of distgustingly resilient, that if he passes, he heals the wound rather than takes it (I think there's a Tzeentch Greater Demon trait that does this?).

    Agree with all that, but maybe there’s also a way to give armies like T’au more of a presence in other phases. The damage cap is super good though, I don’t envy having to number-crunch trying to find other equally powerful special rules though.

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    C'tan are an interesting case, and I quite like the wounds cap rule on them, because how survivable they are feels directly tied to how good you are at 40k.

    If you misposition them its incredibly easy to take them down. They can't deny, so psychic will almost always take 3 off them, T7 with a 4+++ means it's not all that hard to take wounds off in shooting or combat with certain weapons either. It's very easily possible to take three wounds off it turn one, six in turn two and then probably kill it in your opponents next combat phase. The trick is though that a good player can position their c'tan to limit the number of phases that you can interact with it in using terrain and other units.

    I have seen too many games where people move their c'tan straight forward and then it just instantly dies.

  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    edited December 2020
    "Cap on wounds per phase" just feels disproportionately punishing towards some armies. If you haven't got a psychic phase and you lean heavily into either shooting or melee you're basically shit out of luck when fighting a model with that rule.

    Burnage on
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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Cap on wounds is just rather crude fix as far as it goes. Like the complaint is that the big bad unit is getting wiped in a single shooting phase (or whatever), so they put in a rule that just said that can't happen. It doesn't really hit the fundamental issue that there's just a whole lot of offense out there and the unit doesn't have enough defense to handle it. Technically defense basically boils down to not taking wounds, and this does solve that issue, but like I said, it's crude.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    edited December 2020
    I think a wounds per turn is a bit better fix than wounds per phase. This is what they did with the exalted blood thirster. They have been moving towards making units more survivable. Mini-marines getting 2w, stuff like Deathwing termis and transhuman, or duty eternal. Also new reanimation protocols, C'tan, and so on. I expect Death Guard to be similar. A lot of the best armies now are rather tough and I think they want to move that way.

    At the same time there is now a huge spam of 2 damage weapons every where. So not sure it has changed much.

    Mazzyx on
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    KhraulGnome-InterruptusLordSolarMacharius
  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    edited December 2020
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I think a wounds per turn is a bit better fix than wounds per phase. This is what they did with the exalted blood thirster. They have been moving towards making units more survivable. Mini-marines getting 2w, stuff like Deathwing termis and transhuman, or duty eternal. Also new reanimation protocols, C'tan, and so on. I expect Death Guard to be similar. A lot of the best armies now are rather tough and I think they want to move that way.

    At the same time there is now a huge spam of 2 damage weapons every where. So not sure it has changed much.

    FTFY

    Also, I agree

    Khraul on
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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    I haven't been keeping up on the Meta / tier / any tournies that happen in the year of Nurgle....are C'tan lists dominating for Necron? Most of the ones I've seen are Silver Tide/ Silent King oriented.

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  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    I am curious if he will get a rule like the C'Tan and Ghaz on how many wounds he can take a phase/turn. I think he might.

    I don't like these rules. I think they're a bandaid on a much larger problem (the insane power creep in 40K in general). 9th edition was a patch on 8th edition to address exploits that asshole tournament WAACs were abusing, but my hope is that 10th edition will just wipe the slate clean and we can all start fresh without 30 books worth of additional rules making armies so powerful that primarchs can't survive more than the first turn of the game.

    I honestly don't like any of the "anti-game" rules that get released (anything that flies in the face of the standard rules of the game). Everyone overwatches on a 6 (except for this unit). No one can deep strike closer than 9" (except for this unit). Models can't target characters unless they're the closest model (except for this unit). Modifiers do not affect invulnerable saves (except for this unit), etc etc. The only one I like is Drop Pod Assault, partly because I play Marines (olololol) but also because having a bunch of Drop Pods come down with a bunch of tacticals popping out is fluffy as hell (but even so, people abuse it and throw two 5 man dev squads in them so they can drop a ton of melta shots 9" away from their opponent's biggest tank).

    The issue with competitive 40k in 8E was the mission set and the amount of terrain on the table, not the base rules

    The biggest persisting rule issue with 8E was, like, flyer spam, and even that wasn't really a thing by the end

    uH3IcEi.png
    Burnage
  • VanguardVanguard A wretched country of duskRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    A game like 40k is necessarily asymmetrical, which means there are winners and losers in the meta.

    The alternative - a perfectly balanced game with no rules exceptions - would likely not be fun. There would either be no differences between factions or you would have clear, optimal choices.

    I think the game is in a good spot right now - the only glaring issue is the first turn advantage, which can be mitigated somewhat by terrain.

    NorgothMazzyxKhraulGnomeTank
  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    I haven't played competitively in a long time, but I can tell you what's happening in my little bubble. We have a super fun Ad Mech list, a crazy combo-riffic Black Legion list, a scary Grey Knight list, some annoying as hell Thousand Sons, my super silly Word Bearers list, and my mediocre Blood Ravens throwing down. Sadly no one wants to play any xenos right now, because everyone is expecting (hoping for? dreaming of?) big model reworks for both Craftworlds, Tyranids, and Orks in the relatively near future. And we're old school (or just old), so no one really likes the Necrons and still see them as the new kids on the block. The less mentioned about the fancy-hatted antelope peoples with mecha, the better (just kidding, I actually love the T'au).

  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    I mean there hasn't been a lot of competitive this year for obvious reasons. But even so there has been a broad spectrum of lists and play. From scary daemons and death guard to marines to Eldar that always do weird shit to GK and Ad Mech. There are some at the real bottom like pure CSM (which feels normal being a long term CSM player) and Guard. But the game is pretty balanced and a lot of the old issues at the end of the 8th have cleared out. And the marine codex actually had a good amount of balancing in it.

    9th feels good and the weird exceptions seem built around making your big units cool and able to contribute more than dying. Unlike knights that can't play the game.

    03x29di.png
  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    One thing we've had to do is relearn the way the game is played in 9th. It's not all about just smashing your opponents' plastic toys off the table.
    A great example from last weekend, I walked the last remaining Assault Intercessor up to an objective my opponent was camping their warlord on in the backfield.
    My opponent said "I guess that guy thinks he's going to charge in and kill this guy huh?" and I responded nope, the game is tied and if he lives into your turn, he will deny you the control of that point and I will win. I never would have played that way six months ago, all smash smash smash. I love the way 9th has made me change my style.

    Khraul
  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    One thing we've had to do is relearn the way the game is played in 9th. It's not all about just smashing your opponents' plastic toys off the table.
    A great example from last weekend, I walked the last remaining Assault Intercessor up to an objective my opponent was camping their warlord on in the backfield.
    My opponent said "I guess that guy thinks he's going to charge in and kill this guy huh?" and I responded nope, the game is tied and if he lives into your turn, he will deny you the control of that point and I will win. I never would have played that way six months ago, all smash smash smash. I love the way 9th has made me change my style.

    Agree, mostly, but a lot of the games I've played have felt.....I don't want to use the word samey, but, definitely less focused on making sure my Army was more intact by the end.

    Overall, it's a good thing, but part of me still wishes that maybe everyone would have Thin the Ranks as an automatic fourth secondary or something to encourage some killing.

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  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    Nealneal wrote: »
    One thing we've had to do is relearn the way the game is played in 9th. It's not all about just smashing your opponents' plastic toys off the table.
    A great example from last weekend, I walked the last remaining Assault Intercessor up to an objective my opponent was camping their warlord on in the backfield.
    My opponent said "I guess that guy thinks he's going to charge in and kill this guy huh?" and I responded nope, the game is tied and if he lives into your turn, he will deny you the control of that point and I will win. I never would have played that way six months ago, all smash smash smash. I love the way 9th has made me change my style.

    I'm currently trouncing a buddy of mine in a Space Wolves vs Necrons campaign for just this reason. Some of the games have ended with my forces massacred, but I've won every match by varying margins.

    He's so used to castling up and trying to kill more stuff that he keeps losing on points... after our last game he's starting to come around, so there's hope yet.

    Bnet - Khraul#1822
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  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    Re: "the meta"

    I've actually followed the tournaments that have happened this year a little bit and there have been some interesting top 4's.

    Harlequins are currently kicking ass all over the world and taking lots of 1st's, but it's a very cooky cutter list relying on on specific faction and essential the same 1700-1800 points of the 2000 available. Basically 5 infantry squads in transports, bikes, 2 HQ's and a death jester.

    A variety of daemons lists are doing very well, mostly due to exalted daemons being a thing, but also from nurlings putting a lot of early pressure on the board. Beasts of nurgle show up fairly often as well. KoS's are pulling a lot of weight and an Exalted Lord of Change appears to be mandatory as you can give it a 3++ as well as a 6+++ that heals a wound for every FnP that you make (making it effectively a 5+++ is my understanding). Khorne isn't really showing up much outside of the occasional bloodletter bomb.

    Various marine factions have been doing well to varying degrees with white scars and dark angels having a few very good placements. I think I saw an ultramarines list that was placing fairly well also.

    Goonhammer posted a November Tier list recently that I found to be very well thought out. The tiers don't currently seem to be sitting that far apart and there have been a lot of outliers wins in tournaments this year, including a Tyranid list in a top 3 last month. Chaos appears to be largely relying on soup to snag wins until they get their 2W bump with their new book.

    The armies that appear to be tanked in the competitive scene are pure Tsons (not enough tools to do much of anything), Tau (hard to field a durable enough midfield presence), and guard (same as tau afaik). Pure Knights of both flavours just can't compete in most cases as they just don't have enough board presence to score primaries and they give up lots of easy secondary points.

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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Also if folks haven't watched this. This is a good video on terrain.

    03x29di.png
    KhraulGnomeTank
  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    I'm halfway through that video... I'd never heard of "toe-in" on terrain. I'm going to flip this to my friends as I think some of the stuff they talk about could have a positive impact on our games.

    Bnet - Khraul#1822
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  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    edited December 2020
    Khraul wrote: »
    Re: "the meta"

    I've actually followed the tournaments that have happened this year a little bit and there have been some interesting top 4's.

    Harlequins are currently kicking ass all over the world and taking lots of 1st's, but it's a very cooky cutter list relying on on specific faction and essential the same 1700-1800 points of the 2000 available. Basically 5 infantry squads in transports, bikes, 2 HQ's and a death jester.

    A variety of daemons lists are doing very well, mostly due to exalted daemons being a thing, but also from nurlings putting a lot of early pressure on the board. Beasts of nurgle show up fairly often as well. KoS's are pulling a lot of weight and an Exalted Lord of Change appears to be mandatory as you can give it a 3++ as well as a 6+++ that heals a wound for every FnP that you make (making it effectively a 5+++ is my understanding). Khorne isn't really showing up much outside of the occasional bloodletter bomb.

    Various marine factions have been doing well to varying degrees with white scars and dark angels having a few very good placements. I think I saw an ultramarines list that was placing fairly well also.

    Goonhammer posted a November Tier list recently that I found to be very well thought out. The tiers don't currently seem to be sitting that far apart and there have been a lot of outliers wins in tournaments this year, including a Tyranid list in a top 3 last month. Chaos appears to be largely relying on soup to snag wins until they get their 2W bump with their new book.

    The armies that appear to be tanked in the competitive scene are pure Tsons (not enough tools to do much of anything), Tau (hard to field a durable enough midfield presence), and guard (same as tau afaik). Pure Knights of both flavours just can't compete in most cases as they just don't have enough board presence to score primaries and they give up lots of easy secondary points.

    Guard are going to end up sitting in Chimeras again to retain board presence and push forward for line breaker, etc. Yeah, the Chimera still isn't that hard to kill, but it's probably good enough to actually see use, especially since dedicated anti-tank seems to be less prevalent than last edition.

    Monwyn on
    uH3IcEi.png
    Khraul
  • VanguardVanguard A wretched country of duskRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Tabletop Titans are the best 40k content on YT by a mile

    KhraulGnomeTankevilbob
  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    I'm honestly not surprised Harlequins are doing well at the moment, they got a triple buff going into 9th edition - the emphasis on terrain favours them, they had a bizarrely powerful Psychic Awakening update considering it was just in a White Dwarf, and their points update was ridiculously good to them.

    It's continually going to bug me until it changes that their transport is actually ten points cheaper than the fully loaded out Drukhari equivalent, despite it being better in virtually every way.

    KhraulGnome-Interruptus
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    edited December 2020
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Tabletop Titans are the best 40k content on YT by a mile

    For games and meta talk? Cause, Baldermort's Guide to Warhammer and Oculus Imperia are right there. :razz:

    Otherwise, yeah for sure.

    Axen on
    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    I really want to play 40K but I've hit the point of too much terrain and too much stuff in general and I have no idea how to organize it.

    PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    Metal rack shelves, and lots of them l. :biggrin:

    Khraul
  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    I desperately want GW to publish a full release schedule for their codexes so I know what army to pick for my groups next crusade.

    This couple months of teases doesn't work for me.

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  • DayspringDayspring the Phoenician Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Tabletop Titans are the best 40k content on YT by a mile

    I wish they'd improve their close up shots in batreps, the camera is always so faraway it looks like i'm watching a batrep from a different room through a telescope or something

    Norgoth
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Stragint wrote: »
    I really want to play 40K but I've hit the point of too much terrain and too much stuff in general and I have no idea how to organize it.

    I have the bag o jungle trees worth far more than I thought
    Ye old neromunda terrain in a old beer box. and various other terrain in boxes I should get a better system to put it away

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited December 2020
    Dayspring wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Tabletop Titans are the best 40k content on YT by a mile

    I wish they'd improve their close up shots in batreps, the camera is always so faraway it looks like i'm watching a batrep from a different room through a telescope or something

    They bring a hand cam on a gyro in sometimes, and get down close to the board. I think the issue is that part of the draw of Tabletop Titans is Adrian and Brian, they are kind of the stars of the show as much as the batrep. They're both good players, witty, and have a great banter chemistry together. The only other person they can really hand cam with is Bridger and he's busy doing the other thing that I think makes their batreps great: Keeping track of the meta state of the game for them and thus keeping it up to date and fresh on the screen for us.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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    Vanguard
  • TheGerbilTheGerbil Registered User regular
    Khraul wrote: »
    I desperately want GW to publish a full release schedule for their codexes so I know what army to pick for my groups next crusade.

    This couple months of teases doesn't work for me.

    All we know at this point is Death Guard this month following Blood Angels, then next month is Druhkari and Dark Angels right?


    Khraul
  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    TheGerbil wrote: »
    Khraul wrote: »
    I desperately want GW to publish a full release schedule for their codexes so I know what army to pick for my groups next crusade.

    This couple months of teases doesn't work for me.

    All we know at this point is Death Guard this month following Blood Angels, then next month is Druhkari and Dark Angels right?

    Sisters, Ad Mech and Orks should be coming at the start of 2021 as well based on the teaser video at the start of 9th.

  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    If you had to bet on the next range getting new sculpts (beyond characters) what would you guess? Based on rumor engine teasers it looks like there could be a few Vampire Courts (or whatever they’re called now) models for Age of Sigmar on the horizon. There’s a rumor going round about plastic Death Korps troops and Ork Kommandos in an upcoming KT starter, and while there could be a new nob or boss on the horizon I don’t see anything in the rumor engine teasers that would indicate IG...

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    I don't think it's outrageous to say that Craftworld Eldar are the most in-need of a revamp currently. They have finecast Troops. They have at least one metal character still. Several of their plastic kits date from 2nd edition. One of their generic HQs doesn't even have a model.

    Whether that translates into them actually being the next range to get an update isn't something I'd be willing to bet on, however.

    BrainleechGnome-Interruptusitalianranma
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    I don't think it's outrageous to say that Craftworld Eldar are the most in-need of a revamp currently. They have finecast Troops. They have at least one metal character still. Several of their plastic kits date from 2nd edition. One of their generic HQs doesn't even have a model.

    Whether that translates into them actually being the next range to get an update isn't something I'd be willing to bet on, however.

    This is just mechanics matching flavor. Dying race, and all.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

    VanguardGnome-InterruptusNechriahitalianranmaSmokeStackstzeentchling
  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    TheGerbil wrote: »
    Khraul wrote: »
    I desperately want GW to publish a full release schedule for their codexes so I know what army to pick for my groups next crusade.

    This couple months of teases doesn't work for me.

    All we know at this point is Death Guard this month following Blood Angels, then next month is Druhkari and Dark Angels right?

    Sisters, Ad Mech and Orks should be coming at the start of 2021 as well based on the teaser video at the start of 9th.

    Admech I could see as they're an older 8th codex I believe. If it's true I'm surprised they'd push Orks and Sisters that early... weren't they later releases in 8th?

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  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Khraul wrote: »
    Burnage wrote: »
    TheGerbil wrote: »
    Khraul wrote: »
    I desperately want GW to publish a full release schedule for their codexes so I know what army to pick for my groups next crusade.

    This couple months of teases doesn't work for me.

    All we know at this point is Death Guard this month following Blood Angels, then next month is Druhkari and Dark Angels right?

    Sisters, Ad Mech and Orks should be coming at the start of 2021 as well based on the teaser video at the start of 9th.

    Admech I could see as they're an older 8th codex I believe. If it's true I'm surprised they'd push Orks and Sisters that early... weren't they later releases in 8th?

    I don't know if that necessarily means anything. Space Marines were the penultimate Codex of 8th and the first one of 9th, after all.

  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    True, but I think the SM codex would have been the first one released regardless of the date of their prior release just by nature of being the "flagship" line or whatever.

    If they keep up with 2 codexes per month, it's still around a year before everyone has a new codex, right?

    Bnet - Khraul#1822
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  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    After DE there'll be 16 factions that still need a Codex, so at two a month they'd be comfortably done by the end of 2021. That'd be a pretty breakneck release pace, though - I'd guess summer 2022 would be a more realistic explanation for them all to be finished.

  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    I don't think it's outrageous to say that Craftworld Eldar are the most in-need of a revamp currently. They have finecast Troops. They have at least one metal character still. Several of their plastic kits date from 2nd edition. One of their generic HQs doesn't even have a model.

    Whether that translates into them actually being the next range to get an update isn't something I'd be willing to bet on, however.

    I agree they do need a revamp as my brother does make fun of most of my army he remembers I had when he was in Junior High
    as he points out the warp spiders were brand new and he remembers how I got the three I have then the Exarch and tried to make them work {I only have taken them out for fun n games to see how they work with a ynnari army} So I feel of all aspect warriors they and the shining spears need the refresh the most
    The Falcon's hull is ubiquitous and iconic the turret not so and that needs the redo I feel. Even if you do some surgery on the fire prism turret to take the star lance and whatever it looks a lot better
    Even the forgeworld one looked like it belonged
    4yh04djo6w9u.png

    The Avatar needs some love as both Ynnead and him sit outside of the case side by side and you can see the difference
    Even if you made the Avatar the size of the Trygon it would befit that model

    Other than a refresh of the models what else would they do? Or get? Corsairs? Exodites?

  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited December 2020
    I know people love Exodites, but I would much rather we get updated bikes, Aspect Warriors, and an Avatar first. A for real Court of the Young King would be amazing.

    I want Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions that are good. Fire Dragons that hop out of Falcons and burn down tanks.

    I just want a completely new line for them. I know it's not happening, but damn if GW wouldn't get all my "hobby" money if they did give us that.

    Nealneal on
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