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[WH40K] Battle Forge is here

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  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    I can't see the pics through my works firewall, but reading the text on that article it sounds like a cool change. Fluffy and something that prevents players from abusing the benefits of aura interactions.

    Also I feel like it'll be another point against castling, though castling doesn't appear to be that effective in 9th anyway. (My poor GK opponent is struggling through 9th right now as building a solid grey knight castle has always been his bog standard battle plan).

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  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Huge changes in how auras work

    I like it a lot. Opens up a lot of design space.

    This is a major (and good) change. It limits a lot of the major force multipliers to basic units, stopping the big problems we've seen with spamming power units pushed to bonkers levels.

    KhraulBurnageMr_RoseRedcoat-13Nechriah
  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Khraul wrote: »
    I can't see the pics through my works firewall, but reading the text on that article it sounds like a cool change. Fluffy and something that prevents players from abusing the benefits of aura interactions.

    Also I feel like it'll be another point against castling, though castling doesn't appear to be that effective in 9th anyway. (My poor GK opponent is struggling through 9th right now as building a solid grey knight castle has always been his bog standard battle plan).

    Apart from the flashy model pics the actually relevant ones are just the character mentioned in the paragraph standing between the two other units mentioned in the paragraph with a circle to represent the aura radius underneath so it’s clear the other two are in range. The “core” unit on the right gets a green overlay and a big green tick while the non-core on the left gets a red overlay and cross.
    Oh and another image of the Heavy Intercessor Squad with the hilarious mistake that means it can’t, as written, actually take its fancy heavy bolter variants.

    As for castling, you can still do it but you’re going to want to use large squads of mainly infantry to do it, rather than vehicles. I wonder if Rhinos will be Core…

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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Why can't they take them? As long as you didn't exchange the standard armament for any heavy bolters you can take fancy bolters. When you have fancy bolters you can change them for fancy heavy bolters.

    For core vehicles, I expect that dreadnoughts are among them, at least. Walkers feel more appropriate for that than any of the other vehicles.

    honovere on
  • OrogogusOrogogus San DiegoRegistered User regular
    Sisters of Battle VR game announced for the Quest/Quest 2. Which I don't have or plan to get, so that's a bummer.

  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »

    We got the recon patrol mission which half your army is put in strategic reserves. You can come in on the first turn if you roll a 4+. Started with my noise marines, the sorc, and the lord. Got first turn but didn't actually kill much. Bad rolls from my Noise Marines and good saves for his Immortals. He kills half my noise marines on his turn and brings in his ghost ark from the 4+ roll. Kills all but 2 marines of the minimum squad. My turn 2 the raptors come down. Noise Marines with endless cacophony, vets, and the noise marine buffs finish off his immortals. Raptors and the 2 man marine squad surround the ghost ark due to how it came on.

    This is basically the rest of the game. Skorpekhs come on and charge killing the noise marines but not the lord. The lord slaughters them. Gets into a wet noodle fight with overlord. Eventually loses and the Sorc finishes the lord. I rotate in squads keeping the ghost ark surrounded till they finished it off. Never had a chance to unload the warriors. Which was game. He was hoping the 20 shots could clear a squad but never was able to finish it.

    Overall a fun game. Also felt good to play Chaos again.

    I got about halfway through that and was like "Oh, Necron victory?! Goooo Necrons!"

    And then they lost.

    Still, glad you won :).

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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »

    We got the recon patrol mission which half your army is put in strategic reserves. You can come in on the first turn if you roll a 4+. Started with my noise marines, the sorc, and the lord. Got first turn but didn't actually kill much. Bad rolls from my Noise Marines and good saves for his Immortals. He kills half my noise marines on his turn and brings in his ghost ark from the 4+ roll. Kills all but 2 marines of the minimum squad. My turn 2 the raptors come down. Noise Marines with endless cacophony, vets, and the noise marine buffs finish off his immortals. Raptors and the 2 man marine squad surround the ghost ark due to how it came on.

    This is basically the rest of the game. Skorpekhs come on and charge killing the noise marines but not the lord. The lord slaughters them. Gets into a wet noodle fight with overlord. Eventually loses and the Sorc finishes the lord. I rotate in squads keeping the ghost ark surrounded till they finished it off. Never had a chance to unload the warriors. Which was game. He was hoping the 20 shots could clear a squad but never was able to finish it.

    Overall a fun game. Also felt good to play Chaos again.

    I got about halfway through that and was like "Oh, Necron victory?! Goooo Necrons!"

    And then they lost.

    Still, glad you won :).

    I think he would have if he positioned the ghost ark better. The fact that I could trap it the whole game was huge. Especially with a pair of power fists.

    The noise marines though even with my shit rolls are just a good unit right now.

    I made them T5. So a 10 man unit buffed is 24 str 5 ap 0 d2 shots plus either 2d6 str 5 ap -1 d2 shots or 2d3 str 9 ap -3 d3+1 damage. And you can vets, prescience, and double tap. Just a great unit.

    And hard to kill. 3+/5+++ and with an apostle in competitive it becomes 3+/5++/5+++. I look forward to them having 2 wounds.

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    Khraul
  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Shambler FuckerRegistered User regular
    The CORE change is interesting. I like that it means no more Repulsors surrounding a Captain on the ass edge of the table, or planes being momentarily inspired because they flew past a Lieutenant for a split second at 200mph, but models not being able to utilize their own auras does make me sad.

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    The CORE change is interesting. I like that it means no more Repulsors surrounding a Captain on the ass edge of the table, or planes being momentarily inspired because they flew past a Lieutenant for a split second at 200mph, but models not being able to utilize their own auras does make me sad.

    I can still My Will Be Done that jet at the beginning of the game, though. Yay Doom Scythes hitting on 2s!

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  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    Bizazedo wrote: »
    The CORE change is interesting. I like that it means no more Repulsors surrounding a Captain on the ass edge of the table, or planes being momentarily inspired because they flew past a Lieutenant for a split second at 200mph, but models not being able to utilize their own auras does make me sad.

    I can still My Will Be Done that jet at the beginning of the game, though. Yay Doom Scythes hitting on 2s!

    I would be good money that in the codex MWBD is core.

    Mazzyx
  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    Why can't they take them? As long as you didn't exchange the standard armament for any heavy bolters you can take fancy bolters. When you have fancy bolters you can change them for fancy heavy bolters.

    For core vehicles, I expect that dreadnoughts are among them, at least. Walkers feel more appropriate for that than any of the other vehicles.

    Because, as written, the data sheet allows you to swap a “heavy auto bolt rifle” or a “heavy stalker bolt rifle” for a hellstorm or executor heavy bolter respectively. But the only weapons the squad can take are heavy bolt rifles, hellstorm bolt rifles, and executor bolt rifles; no heavy auto or heavy stalker. Yeah, it’s obvious what it meant to say but it’s hilarious that it made it to the website like this and could be taken as an ill omen for the general level of proofreading in the codex.

    I would not be at all surprised if you’re right about the dreadnoughts though.

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  • McGibsMcGibs TorontoRegistered User regular
    I look forward to seeing what sort of shinnianigins allow CORE keywors to be added to units (Ravenwing?)

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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose 83 Blue Ridge Protects the Holy Registered User regular
    McGibs wrote: »
    I look forward to seeing what sort of shinnianigins allow CORE keywors to be added to units (Ravenwing?)

    Oh yeah, fully expecting Iron Hands v2.0 to have Core tanks and stuff when that happens. I honestly sort of expect Bikes to be Core anyway, but Ravenwing speeders being Core? That or the relevant ‘wing’ captains and lieutenants will have wing-only auras.

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  • McGibsMcGibs TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2020
    I'd actually be really happy if they kept "specialist" units out of CORE and just left it for more generalist units. Boost your meat-n-potatoes battleline units a little, but stop the obnoxious hammer units from being overly-effective. It would be real good for the lethality health of the game if specialized killer-units were throttled from rerolls a bit.
    Lascannon Havoks don't NEED to be babysat by a chaos lord, but currently that's where you park him because rerolls on 4 lascannons is better than a handful of CSM bolters.
    Then either get rid of all the "shoot twice" strats, or also limit them to CORE.

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Norgoth wrote: »
    I would be good money that in the codex MWBD is core.
    It's possible, but it's not an aura and specifies Dynasty in the datasheet from Indomitus. It's directly choosing one unit. That makes me think there's a reasonable chance it's not CORE only.

    Of course I could be wrong :D.

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    I'll say the same thing I said on Brady's video: I hate it, only because of characters losing their own auras. Beat stick characters are a fun part of 40K, why is GW so intent on 9th ed. being anti cool characters?

    I'd so far as to say I want the opposite rule: Take auras away completely, let characters be self buffing, and keep unit buffs to chaplains and psyckers. Speeds up the game, gives them all that design space they want to give targeted units different things, makes psyckers and chaplains way more unique and cool, and lets characters be fucking awesome still.

    The idea of Guilliman not giving himself re-rolls is absurd. He's a god damn Primarch, his re-rolls should just be inherent to how much of a BAMF he is.

    e: Think of how absurd this sounds in your head. Guilliman and some Intercessors charge something with a -1 to hit aura. The intercessors, run of the mill troops are like "FUCKING GUILLIMAN LETS GO!!!" and somehow give themselves a massive advantage to hit, but the Primarch of the 13th Legion wiffs on 1s and 2's with no re-roll? Get out of here. It sounds dumb even typing out. GW is on one.

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  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    I feel it's to stop the static gunline armies
    But I will wait and see in the codex it seems
    Heavy primaris rifles are troops is a surprise though

  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Primary scoring itself is a strong deterrent to static gun-lines. Even with all the nerfs to charging, melee units are the early meta.

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  • McGibsMcGibs TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Oh come off it, there will still be plenty of beatsticks, they'll just have some more swing to them.
    Characters hitting on 2's rerolling 1's is pretty boring for the game, as it just means they essentially never miss. They might as well just autohit and save everyone the time of rolling dice. Heaven forbid something should MISS and cause a little bit tension or drama!

    Also, applying fluff logic to abstracted rerolls can twist however you want it. Just how is Gman giving his reroll bubble anyways? To me it makes just as much sense that he's busy yelling at his boys and less time worrying about his own singular gun. He's a teamplayer like that. Doesnt really sound that absurd in my head.

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  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    I’m reading Avenging Son right now and thought the opening chapter where the Space Marine Captain is yelling at individual Space Marines to micro-manage their positioning and fires was absurd. That totally breaks my mind’s eye picture of each being some incredible super soldier on par with whole battalions. Does the Captain also tuck them in at night and tell them what good boys they are too? I still think the Astartes shorts were the best depiction of the quiet, professional killing machines I’ve always imagined them as.

    Not really adding anything to the aura argument, only seconding that everyone has their own vision of what the rules translate into. For me the Captain acts as both a morale boost and also as some kind of information aggregation node augmenting each individual Space Marine’s targeting suite.

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  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    I’m reading Avenging Son right now and thought the opening chapter where the Space Marine Captain is yelling at individual Space Marines to micro-manage their positioning and fires was absurd. That totally breaks my mind’s eye picture of each being some incredible super soldier on par with whole battalions. Does the Captain also tuck them in at night and tell them what good boys they are too? I still think the Astartes shorts were the best depiction of the quiet, professional killing machines I’ve always imagined them as.

    Not really adding anything to the aura argument, only seconding that everyone has their own vision of what the rules translate into. For me the Captain acts as both a morale boost and also as some kind of information aggregation node augmenting each individual Space Marine’s targeting suite.

    I'd planned on reading Avenging Son... but I haven't heard good things.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    I'll say the same thing I said on Brady's video: I hate it, only because of characters losing their own auras. Beat stick characters are a fun part of 40K, why is GW so intent on 9th ed. being anti cool characters?

    I'd so far as to say I want the opposite rule: Take auras away completely, let characters be self buffing, and keep unit buffs to chaplains and psyckers. Speeds up the game, gives them all that design space they want to give targeted units different things, makes psyckers and chaplains way more unique and cool, and lets characters be fucking awesome still.

    The idea of Guilliman not giving himself re-rolls is absurd. He's a god damn Primarch, his re-rolls should just be inherent to how much of a BAMF he is.

    e: Think of how absurd this sounds in your head. Guilliman and some Intercessors charge something with a -1 to hit aura. The intercessors, run of the mill troops are like "FUCKING GUILLIMAN LETS GO!!!" and somehow give themselves a massive advantage to hit, but the Primarch of the 13th Legion wiffs on 1s and 2's with no re-roll? Get out of here. It sounds dumb even typing out. GW is on one.

    They can always bake the auras into the models base stats, while making the aura not impact them.

    So instead of Guilliman getting rerolls, he has extra base attacks, higher stats, to make up for it.

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    McGibs wrote: »
    Oh come off it, there will still be plenty of beatsticks, they'll just have some more swing to them.
    Characters hitting on 2's rerolling 1's is pretty boring for the game, as it just means they essentially never miss. They might as well just autohit and save everyone the time of rolling dice. Heaven forbid something should MISS and cause a little bit tension or drama!

    Also, applying fluff logic to abstracted rerolls can twist however you want it. Just how is Gman giving his reroll bubble anyways? To me it makes just as much sense that he's busy yelling at his boys and less time worrying about his own singular gun. He's a teamplayer like that. Doesnt really sound that absurd in my head.

    Except GW themselves are using fluff logic to justify the change. So yeah, I'm going to use fluff logic right back to justify why it's stupid that the Primarch of the 13th, or a captain who has seen countless wars, or an eldar farseer, or name your badass dude/dudette here, has a mathematically worse chance to hit than run of the mill troops who happen to be getting an aura.

    Just remove auras entirely as far as I'm concerned. They're clearly a balance issue and hard to design around. Effectively nerfing characters sucks and isn't fun or "rule of cool". All unit buffs become a power or prayer that requires a roll to go off, and only affects one unit. There's all the design space everyone wants and plenty of "swing".

    GW had so many ways to design themselves out of the aura problem, and basically chose the worst option as far as I'm concerned.

    GnomeTank on
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  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    We don't know what the Codices in this edition are fully going to look like yet. Characters might gain buffs to account for their lack of self-auras. The Chapter Master aura might change to something like core and non-core units being able to reroll 1s.

    There's so much changing over the next few months, it's difficult to guess exactly how things are going to feel. Maybe characters do wind up feeling bad, maybe they don't.

    Khraul
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    Khraul wrote: »
    I’m reading Avenging Son right now and thought the opening chapter where the Space Marine Captain is yelling at individual Space Marines to micro-manage their positioning and fires was absurd. That totally breaks my mind’s eye picture of each being some incredible super soldier on par with whole battalions. Does the Captain also tuck them in at night and tell them what good boys they are too? I still think the Astartes shorts were the best depiction of the quiet, professional killing machines I’ve always imagined them as.

    Not really adding anything to the aura argument, only seconding that everyone has their own vision of what the rules translate into. For me the Captain acts as both a morale boost and also as some kind of information aggregation node augmenting each individual Space Marine’s targeting suite.

    I'd planned on reading Avenging Son... but I haven't heard good things.

    I'm working on a write-up in the SE++ thread. I haven't read a lot of Warhammer fiction because generally the writing is pretty poor, but so far I genuinely like Avenging Son. It's not The Expanse by any means, but outside of the parts where supposedly really smart and competent people yell out random numbers or obvious directions I think it portrays an interesting world. The narrator is really talented too, though the way he chanted "Khorne" was comical instead of terrifying. I thought I was at a Nebraska farmer's convention "Corn! Corn! Corn! Corn!"

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
    Khraul
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    If a charcter has an aura that would always effect them its cleaner to just bake it into their stat line and have the aura effect core units as normal.

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  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    Khraul wrote: »
    I’m reading Avenging Son right now and thought the opening chapter where the Space Marine Captain is yelling at individual Space Marines to micro-manage their positioning and fires was absurd. That totally breaks my mind’s eye picture of each being some incredible super soldier on par with whole battalions. Does the Captain also tuck them in at night and tell them what good boys they are too? I still think the Astartes shorts were the best depiction of the quiet, professional killing machines I’ve always imagined them as.

    Not really adding anything to the aura argument, only seconding that everyone has their own vision of what the rules translate into. For me the Captain acts as both a morale boost and also as some kind of information aggregation node augmenting each individual Space Marine’s targeting suite.

    I'd planned on reading Avenging Son... but I haven't heard good things.

    I'm working on a write-up in the SE++ thread. I haven't read a lot of Warhammer fiction because generally the writing is pretty poor, but so far I genuinely like Avenging Son. It's not The Expanse by any means, but outside of the parts where supposedly really smart and competent people yell out random numbers or obvious directions I think it portrays an interesting world. The narrator is really talented too, though the way he chanted "Khorne" was comical instead of terrifying. I thought I was at a Nebraska farmer's convention "Corn! Corn! Corn! Corn!"

    Well that's a good enough review for me. I tend to alternate between a Black library novel and something with a little more substance, so I'll add it back to the list after I'm done what I'm reading now.

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  • frayfray Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    I read Dark Imperium recently and wasn't that sold. I don't think I rate Guy Haley as much as other BL writers. I liked the characterisation of Guilliman and there were some cool scenes, but some of the writing is pretty clunky.

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  • pardzhpardzh Registered User regular
    Aaron Dembski-Bowden has basically ruined Warhammer fiction for me. He's so good that everyone else seems like a bum in comparison.

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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    pardzh wrote: »
    Aaron Dembski-Bowden has basically ruined Warhammer fiction for me. He's so good that everyone else seems like a bum in comparison.

    His Black Legion stuff is so good.

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  • frayfray Registered User regular
    Yeah I haven't actually read much ADB but that's basically how I feel about Dan Abnett. I also really like some of Graham McNeill's stuff, especially his Mars series. He really gets under the skin of the Ad Mech and how they're both more and less than human, and it's got cool characters and some cosmic hard sci-fi stuff that I really dig.

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  • McGibsMcGibs TorontoRegistered User regular
    I think ADB writes the best "in canon" stuff, as in everything is mostly calling on existing stuff from the toybox. "Hey, there's Huron! Hey, he's talking about a dreadnought! I know what that is!"
    Where as Dan Abnett writes the best "out of the box" stuff. His works hardly have any actual callouts to real-plastic, but he just does such a good job of selling the universe.

    In short:
    ABD writes cool stories about plasic minis.
    Dan Abnet writes cool stories, and then GW makes plasic minis about them.

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  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    Chris Wraight is rapidly becoming my second favorite author after Abnett. His watchers of the throne and Vaults of terra series are both awesome.

    Lords of Silence might be my favorite portrayal of traitor marines ever.

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  • pardzhpardzh Registered User regular
    The thing about Abnett is I don't wanna read about Guard when there's much more interesting stuff in the universe.

    Damn did I love those Inquisitor books though. Especially the one where he meets up with the AdMech Magos and his Translithopede.

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  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    The parts of Avenging Son I really like are the parts that give insight into life outside the games. Things like the being a cog in the machine of the bureaucracy, or a terrified LT of a routed platoon trying to find safety. There are some game adjacent scenes I liked as well: the deck workers putting out fires in a hanger, heedless of a thrashing helldrake in its death throes because fire in a ship hanger is the bigger threat. A Tempestus Scion selected at random to die for his Emperor and doing so without any more pomp than arming his hellgun. The stuff I don’t like is the rehashing of the games where Marines fight bloodletters and kill the statistical average of them prior to getting stuck in melee and losing the statistical average. Oh, and also like I said where before where leaders yell sciency gobbledygook to substitute for prose. “Space Marines, attack pattern Epsilon! 40 yard spacing! Use short, controlled bursts! Save ammunition! The enemy is legion, don’t let them overwhelm you!” Thanks Captain, I don’t know if I’d remember to wipe my ass if you didn’t tell me. Two squares huh? There’s a TP shortage? Well I’ll try to keep it contained in the bowl.

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  • ElaroElaro Threadkiller, Harbinger of the Lock GodsRegistered User regular
    I don't think marines use toilets all that much. I think most of their power armor is for treating and disposing their excrement.

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  • KhraulKhraul Registered User regular
    The parts of Avenging Son I really like are the parts that give insight into life outside the games. Things like the being a cog in the machine of the bureaucracy, or a terrified LT of a routed platoon trying to find safety. There are some game adjacent scenes I liked as well: the deck workers putting out fires in a hanger, heedless of a thrashing helldrake in its death throes because fire in a ship hanger is the bigger threat. A Tempestus Scion selected at random to die for his Emperor and doing so without any more pomp than arming his hellgun. The stuff I don’t like is the rehashing of the games where Marines fight bloodletters and kill the statistical average of them prior to getting stuck in melee and losing the statistical average. Oh, and also like I said where before where leaders yell sciency gobbledygook to substitute for prose. “Space Marines, attack pattern Epsilon! 40 yard spacing! Use short, controlled bursts! Save ammunition! The enemy is legion, don’t let them overwhelm you!” Thanks Captain, I don’t know if I’d remember to wipe my ass if you didn’t tell me. Two squares huh? There’s a TP shortage? Well I’ll try to keep it contained in the bowl.

    This was my issue with Dark imperium and it's sequel. It had parts that were good, like Girlyman chatting with the "not clone" Belisarius, and the plotline with the Guardsman coming back from war. But most of the regular marine portions seemed to be written literally just to introduce gravis armor, or how great the new bolt rifles were, and had zero substance. Also a serious chunk of "the good guys always win against all odds" nonsense which is just blagh.

    That last part is why I've enjoyed a lot of the horus heresy stuff, as it gives the authors a lot more leeway to kill off major protagonists and to write content where sometimes the goodguys suffer major losses. Something a lot of "modern" 40k is lacking.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    The swole lady guardsman is for sale for $GW until Sunday. If anyone’s interested that is. Only downside, other than the price, is how stupid long it will probably take to show up.

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  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    edited September 2020
    I think Guy Haley is pretty good when he's not writing a book to sell the latest boxed set.

    And even though soldiers are trained all the time on that stuff, you better believe sergeants still yell it out to make sure. Those parts seem real to me.

    valhalla130 on
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    I get it for regular soldiers, and fully expect that in the guard. One of my favorite scenes of war depicted in film is of Lieutenant Winters yelling at Private Blithe to “Fire your weapon!” in Band of Brothers. But I don’t want to see that applied to Space Marines who are supposed to be incredible super soldiers. I figure each one has the tactical acumen and experience of veteran Navy Seal or service equivalent. Moreover the Captain should have other worries than directing a squad’s fire, like managing the whole of the battle. He had a three mile stretch of wall to guard against a demonic invasion, there was probably more to do than close-control the nearest 300’ of it. The Astartes shorts are the only thing that I’ve seen that really reflects that vision.

    But I’ll admit I’m not a soldier, and I’m continually surprised at the centralized control exercised by my Army brothers.

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
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