I thought Raynor getting a "rework"* was weird, but at least it's redeemable if they just bump some of his numbers back up to get him back to viable. They clearly just overshot the mark on the overall damage nerf they gave him along with the talent overhaul.
And they should probably buff the weak talents like Ace in the Hole, Sustaining Rounds, Heavy Slugs. Not sure if others need buffing but those ones seem like the stand-out junk talents.
* Barely even a rework compared to most the others that have been done since everything about him still works basically the same as it used to.
I think a big part of his nerf was simply on the AA dmg, as everything else for him essentially scales off that. The talents are fire the most part pretty interesting, but when you multiply a low number by a scalar it's still low.
0
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The thing is, I feel like I can almost grind my gears through the rework process.
"We have to do something with Raynor for the next event! And we need to introduce the new Loan talents! Are there things we can 'fix' with Raynor while giving him a good Loan talent?"
"Well, not really, but he doesn't have a lot of talent diversity. People tend to take the same talents, and his Quest talent scales really high, especially in ARAM."
"Why don't we just lower his overall damage and then buff his talents to compensate? I bet this is perfect for a new Loan talent!"
"There's no way people will complain - all the good Raynor players will see this an overall damage increase because they won't die, right?"
Of course, this completely ignores that making Raynor shoot faster to increase his damage is actually a debuff. Faster auto-attacking makes a hero worse, not better, because it increases the skill floor for stutter-stepping, decreases the amount of time you can move in-between shots in order to do the same amount of damage, and lowers the amount of burst damage potential you have. In particular, Raynor's only "real" burst combination required shooting an AA and then immediately resetting it with a W, then shooting a Q immediately after that. Do you know what happens to that combo when you reduce his damage by 8% while increasing his attack speed ? You decrease its damage by 8% (technically slightly less because of the Q, but whatever, you get the point).
Also, no one will ever take the Q talents, even if theoretically they increase his overall DPS. You always save Q for peel or to finish a target. That's it. You never just spam it for damage in a fight, especially since it pushes people away when most of the time you don't want that to happen on a priority target. Maybe you'll use it twice when you're taking a camp or something? But the Q talents don't buff your PvE damage and they only really come online in the late game, where they provide a laughable buff (3 second CDR? 3 more when hitting multiple heroes? the fuck?).
JFC this whole rework just annoys me the more I think about it.
Raynor's Loan talent doesn't affect his attack speed.
Loan: Gain 60% bonus Give 'Em Some Pepper damage. Every death reduces this bonus by 15%.
Quest: Every time the primary target of Give 'Em Some Pepper is a Hero, permanently increase its damage bonus by 0.75%.
Valla's Loan talent at 1 increases her attack speed at 1 and scales it down per death. Hopefully that helps your peace of mind a bit, although his Q stuff is still a bit wonky. Maybe if they gave him a second charge at 16 it might be worthwhile.
I still don't care for his rework because of the damage nerf, so hopefully they'll bump that back up a bit and he'll be fine.
MNC Dover on
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+1
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Ah yeah I got it mixed up with Valla's. His Loan talent is even more shit than I remembered.
The thing is, I feel like I can almost grind my gears through the rework process.
"We have to do something with Raynor for the next event! And we need to introduce the new Loan talents! Are there things we can 'fix' with Raynor while giving him a good Loan talent?"
"Well, not really, but he doesn't have a lot of talent diversity. People tend to take the same talents, and his Quest talent scales really high, especially in ARAM."
"Why don't we just lower his overall damage and then buff his talents to compensate? I bet this is perfect for a new Loan talent!"
"There's no way people will complain - all the good Raynor players will see this an overall damage increase because they won't die, right?"
Of course, this completely ignores that making Raynor shoot faster to increase his damage is actually a debuff. Faster auto-attacking makes a hero worse, not better, because it increases the skill floor for stutter-stepping, decreases the amount of time you can move in-between shots in order to do the same amount of damage, and lowers the amount of burst damage potential you have. In particular, Raynor's only "real" burst combination required shooting an AA and then immediately resetting it with a W, then shooting a Q immediately after that. Do you know what happens to that combo when you reduce his damage by 8% while increasing his attack speed ? You decrease its damage by 8% (technically slightly less because of the Q, but whatever, you get the point).
I mean didn't they also reduce his Q damage by like 15% (before talents anyway)? That just seems to further exemplify your burst example.
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
+1
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
His loan talent is horrible because they nerfed his base AA into the ground, so getting the benefit isn't a huge help.
I have no idea why they increased his Q to compensate. It went from being a button you could use for damage or save to stop a dive, to becoming mandatory for his damage output. It's bad!
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I think the idea was fine, since getting a 60% damage buff out of the gate is a huge boon to stacking talents. Gives you usefulness in the early game which can deteriorate over time or stay strong if you're good. Again, just buffing his AA damage and Q fixes a lot of these problems.
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0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I think the idea was fine, since getting a 60% damage buff out of the gate is a huge boon to stacking talents. Gives you usefulness in the early game which can deteriorate over time or stay strong if you're good. Again, just buffing his AA damage and Q fixes a lot of these problems.
The inspire talents are too good to buff his AA damage, that's the thing.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
OK I just looked at the notes again and they did in fact nerf his Q's damage by a significant amount.
Penetrating Round [Q]
Cooldown reduced from 10 to 9 seconds.
Mana cost reduced from 65 to 60.
Damage reduced from 220 to 190.
What the hell
Did I go into the Bearenstein Bear universe by mistake? I could have sworn it was buffed.
They buffed q talents but nerfed dmg to keep him balanced.
They buffed trait talents but nerfed base aa to keep him balanced.
In short, he's a real hero only when using talents now. Any time outside of hitting buttons, the time when AAers are supposed to shine with their sustained dmg, he's easy to ignore.
It looks like higher MMR games are faster to level, according to Fan. There's less missed soak. That's anecdotal, though. For me, people are awful as ever. I feel like I'm getting more XP, but I like playing offlanes.
+2
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I personally only grab the mini globes when I randomly rotate through a lane trying to cross the map. So it's more accidental than anything.
I mean I'll grab 'em if I see 'em, which is often enough. Coming back from an objective or whatever. I like them because I get more dings, which I said before.
I think it's safe to say then as a change, it hasn't had a huge negative impact on the game. Generally neutral or positive I'd guess.
The impact has been about as expected. It speeds up high-level games where people value experience, and it probably has a similar impact on low-level games where people don't value experience but randomly come across it anyway. It's the vast middle where I think there are stronger, albeit less perceptible impacts.
At the end of the day it lessens the impact of soaking experience at the "correct" time, which means that strategies which revolve around not soaking are necessarily stronger. Which is arguably a bad thing to do in a game rife with player feedback issues.
OK I just looked at the notes again and they did in fact nerf his Q's damage by a significant amount.
Penetrating Round [Q]
Cooldown reduced from 10 to 9 seconds.
Mana cost reduced from 65 to 60.
Damage reduced from 220 to 190.
What the hell
Did I go into the Bearenstein Bear universe by mistake? I could have sworn it was buffed.
Bearenstain Bears, bruh. Bearenstain.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
+1
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I personally only grab the mini globes when I randomly rotate through a lane trying to cross the map. So it's more accidental than anything.
I mean I'll grab 'em if I see 'em, which is often enough. Coming back from an objective or whatever. I like them because I get more dings, which I said before.
Yeah this is what I mean. If I see them along, great, but I normally don't notice them in a lane far away that hasn't been soaked, and much less trek all the way there for them since there's other things to do.
1. "-stein" is a way more common last name suffix than "-stain", to the point that the Bears' authors has been the ONLY instance where anyone has ever seen "-stain". Our brains just went with it.
2. "stein" is just easier to say than the triple hard 'A' sounds of "Berenstain Bears". Our brains just went with it.
Our brains just defaulted to the WAY more common and easier to say "stein" version.
1. "-stein" is a way more common last name suffix than "-stain", to the point that the Bears' authors has been the ONLY instance where anyone has ever seen "-stain". Our brains just went with it.
2. "stein" is just easier to say than the triple hard 'A' sounds of "Berenstain Bears". Our brains just went with it.
Our brains just defaulted to the WAY more common and easier to say "stein" version.
Mmmm, no, pretty sure it's the alternate universe theory
1. "-stein" is a way more common last name suffix than "-stain", to the point that the Bears' authors has been the ONLY instance where anyone has ever seen "-stain". Our brains just went with it.
2. "stein" is just easier to say than the triple hard 'A' sounds of "Berenstain Bears". Our brains just went with it.
Our brains just defaulted to the WAY more common and easier to say "stein" version.
Bier her, Bier her, oder ich fall um!
I have had the three vikings for years and have never played in in any mode as I have no idea how since I see the AI spilt them up sometimes and human players just body people with them [As seen on the screenshot with Artanis and the Protector Of Aiur talent I went from 40 something to over 200 hits on them in the space of 2 minutes } the other day I got in a Qp and one of the few games I did not play a healer in QP I played Mephisto and took the skull missile talent racking up 20 in the first 3 minutes but that was a ugly game with people I feel not knowing how to play certain characters {Dva and Arthas} As they seemed to be doing as little as they could and trying to interfere with any postive progression we made yet we won?
God I hate Silver. Everyone is terrible, nobody soaks XP, comps aren't thought through, and nothing is anyone's fault.
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0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Posts
I think a big part of his nerf was simply on the AA dmg, as everything else for him essentially scales off that. The talents are fire the most part pretty interesting, but when you multiply a low number by a scalar it's still low.
"We have to do something with Raynor for the next event! And we need to introduce the new Loan talents! Are there things we can 'fix' with Raynor while giving him a good Loan talent?"
"Well, not really, but he doesn't have a lot of talent diversity. People tend to take the same talents, and his Quest talent scales really high, especially in ARAM."
"Why don't we just lower his overall damage and then buff his talents to compensate? I bet this is perfect for a new Loan talent!"
/queue 8% overall damage reduction + 20% attack speed Loan talent
"There's no way people will complain - all the good Raynor players will see this an overall damage increase because they won't die, right?"
Of course, this completely ignores that making Raynor shoot faster to increase his damage is actually a debuff. Faster auto-attacking makes a hero worse, not better, because it increases the skill floor for stutter-stepping, decreases the amount of time you can move in-between shots in order to do the same amount of damage, and lowers the amount of burst damage potential you have. In particular, Raynor's only "real" burst combination required shooting an AA and then immediately resetting it with a W, then shooting a Q immediately after that. Do you know what happens to that combo when you reduce his damage by 8% while increasing his attack speed ? You decrease its damage by 8% (technically slightly less because of the Q, but whatever, you get the point).
Also, no one will ever take the Q talents, even if theoretically they increase his overall DPS. You always save Q for peel or to finish a target. That's it. You never just spam it for damage in a fight, especially since it pushes people away when most of the time you don't want that to happen on a priority target. Maybe you'll use it twice when you're taking a camp or something? But the Q talents don't buff your PvE damage and they only really come online in the late game, where they provide a laughable buff (3 second CDR? 3 more when hitting multiple heroes? the fuck?).
JFC this whole rework just annoys me the more I think about it.
Loan: Gain 60% bonus Give 'Em Some Pepper damage. Every death reduces this bonus by 15%.
Quest: Every time the primary target of Give 'Em Some Pepper is a Hero, permanently increase its damage bonus by 0.75%.
Valla's Loan talent at 1 increases her attack speed at 1 and scales it down per death. Hopefully that helps your peace of mind a bit, although his Q stuff is still a bit wonky. Maybe if they gave him a second charge at 16 it might be worthwhile.
I still don't care for his rework because of the damage nerf, so hopefully they'll bump that back up a bit and he'll be fine.
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I have no idea why they increased his Q to compensate. It went from being a button you could use for damage or save to stop a dive, to becoming mandatory for his damage output. It's bad!
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The inspire talents are too good to buff his AA damage, that's the thing.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
What the hell
Did I go into the Bearenstein Bear universe by mistake? I could have sworn it was buffed.
They buffed q talents but nerfed dmg to keep him balanced.
They buffed trait talents but nerfed base aa to keep him balanced.
In short, he's a real hero only when using talents now. Any time outside of hitting buttons, the time when AAers are supposed to shine with their sustained dmg, he's easy to ignore.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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No changes to report in ARAM!
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I mean I'll grab 'em if I see 'em, which is often enough. Coming back from an objective or whatever. I like them because I get more dings, which I said before.
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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The impact has been about as expected. It speeds up high-level games where people value experience, and it probably has a similar impact on low-level games where people don't value experience but randomly come across it anyway. It's the vast middle where I think there are stronger, albeit less perceptible impacts.
At the end of the day it lessens the impact of soaking experience at the "correct" time, which means that strategies which revolve around not soaking are necessarily stronger. Which is arguably a bad thing to do in a game rife with player feedback issues.
Bearenstain Bears, bruh. Bearenstain.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
That sound you hear is the joke going over Dibby's head.
Right, so the alternate universe would be....
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You mean Berenstain?
Yeah this is what I mean. If I see them along, great, but I normally don't notice them in a lane far away that hasn't been soaked, and much less trek all the way there for them since there's other things to do.
So, meh?
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
WHAT THE FUCK
WHAT THE FUCK
ARE YOU FOR REAL
DUDE NO, NO WAY, WHAT. what
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I LITERALLY GOOGLED IT THE OTHER DAY AND I SWEAR TO GOD IT SAID "BEARENSTAIN"
dude what the fuckkkk this is blowing my fucking mind dude
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
2. "stein" is just easier to say than the triple hard 'A' sounds of "Berenstain Bears". Our brains just went with it.
Our brains just defaulted to the WAY more common and easier to say "stein" version.
Mmmm, no, pretty sure it's the alternate universe theory
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
Bier her, Bier her, oder ich fall um!
I have had the three vikings for years and have never played in in any mode as I have no idea how since I see the AI spilt them up sometimes and human players just body people with them [As seen on the screenshot with Artanis and the Protector Of Aiur talent I went from 40 something to over 200 hits on them in the space of 2 minutes } the other day I got in a Qp and one of the few games I did not play a healer in QP I played Mephisto and took the skull missile talent racking up 20 in the first 3 minutes but that was a ugly game with people I feel not knowing how to play certain characters {Dva and Arthas} As they seemed to be doing as little as they could and trying to interfere with any postive progression we made yet we won?
no
I refuse to believe this
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I have bad news about gold and plat.