As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options

[Heroes of the Storm] thread: Don't get excited, Dibby; we're just talking.

1878890929399

Posts

  • Options
    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    They also probably just chose to model the pokemon moba after successful games

    2x39jD4.jpg
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    They also probably just chose to model the pokemon moba after successful games

    fuckin ouch

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    They also probably just chose to model the pokemon moba after successful games

    This was, almost word-for-word, going to be my exact response to Antaeus' post, but I erased it after review because I felt like it was necessary to expand a bit on my thoughts. But yeah; I would imagine you're exactly correct; they likely just looked around and said, "Well, all of the MOBAs that do this are successful, and the one that does that is dead, so ...".

  • Options
    fortyforty Registered User regular
    Either way, I still envision Pokemon MOBA having a lot of "bad" players who "don't know how to play the game."

  • Options
    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    If you looked at your HotS teammates and thought "what are you, 12??", I have some bad news about Pokemon MOBA

    Smrtnik on
    steam_sig.png
  • Options
    InvictusInvictus Registered User regular
    Ehhh. Pokemon United's monetization scheme is pretty fuckin' abusive.

    Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
  • Options
    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    last hitting in pokemon unite really only matters for about 30 seconds at the beginning of the game when you actually kill all the wild pokemon available - and at the end for zappados; which is fine - point control would feel really weird in the game - feel like half the characters have abilities that would move them off a point they are trying to sit on.

    Outside of those two moments - everyone is just trying to team fight anyway.

    I do think for the majority of the time - your teammates do think they are actually helping your team by clearing wild pokemon with you even if you end up stuck at lvl 3 instead of getting to 4; but this happens in dota right? at what point is it understood that stealing farm from the carry is a bad thing?

    PSN SeGaTai
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    edited July 2021
    milk ducks wrote: »
    So, apparently Pokemon Unite has opted to maintain both last-hitting and individual player experience (i.e., experience isn't shared across the team and you level by last-hitting stuff for yourself). There is a mechanic that lets one player on each team gain experience from everyone else's kills, but it is relegated to support classes who can't realistically be expected to farm on their own.

    I find it really interesting they went that route even though it will likely be the most casual of MOBAs with the lowest age floor.

    If it is a MOBA targeted at children, intended to be super casual, then last-hitting and personal XP is really the only way to go.

    A friend and I are currently playing through a board game called Gloomhaven: Jaws of the Lion with our oldest children (they're both 11). And it's been a lot of fun, but the kids play really sub-optimally; they're really only focused on what they can do personally, and almost never pause to consider how the actions they take on their turns might affect other party members' actions coming up. Which is fine; they're kids lol.

    But my point is that last-hitting and personal XP is really straightforward. They're easy and intuitive concepts to understand. Much easier than a HotS-style shared-XP system where teams level up together based on group efforts -- because that's not something they really understand yet.

    And I would argue that adults don't really understand it, either, as evidenced by <gestures broadly toward HotS>. Last week, I was essentially laughed out of this thread for doing a write-up where I suggested calling out for a gank against overextended Zagaras. The bar for cooperation and communication and teamwork in this game is literally so low, the community bursts into laughter and memes at the mere suggestion that teammates play their roles and help each other out.

    Children can understand the concept of "score the final blow on something to get rewarded", while adults can't understand soaking as a team. If you tell people that their progression and character strength are tied to their personal actions, they'll go out and do their jobs. And if they're struggling, they'll learn to do better or they'll stagnate. But if you tell them that their progression and character strength are tied to their teams' actions, they'll go do whatever they want because it's something that just gradually rolls in, regardless. And if they struggle, they'll say its because their teams sucked.

    It isn't surprisingly to me at all that they've elected to utilize that traditional last-hit / personal XP system in Pokemon Unite. It's easy to understand, and it works. HotS should have used it, too.

    HotS should not have used it. Shared XP and no last-hits is a better system.

    I wish that Unite didn't have individual XP and last-hitting either, but I've already said that in that thread :P . Last-hitting to steal a boss or whatever is dumb.

    kime on
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Invictus wrote: »
    Ehhh. Pokemon United's monetization scheme is pretty fuckin' abusive.

    extremely

    It's the worst of the mobas I've seen, with straight up pay to win mechanics.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Neurotika wrote: »
    Based on info in game, I'm not sure that is entirely accurate. At least some of the Wild Pokemon (creeps) xp is shared between everyone hitting it.
    I do wish they used the HotS system whole cloth though, totally agree with that.

    To be clear, I think shared XP - at least as it is currently implemented in HotS - was a major mistake.

  • Options
    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    I always wonder about an alternate universe where DOTA and LoL were built upon the concept of Team XP. Then after they're both mega successful, HotS comes along and introduces last hitting. I'm sure everything would have played out the same, but would the prevailing attitudes of last hitting vs shared XP be changed?

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
    Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
    Steam ID
    Twitch Page
  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    The biggest mistake HotS made was coming out so late. There is probably a world in which it comes out earlier and is more successful than it became. And as I've mentioned in the past, if they focused on the core of the game, which was working together as a team, then team-wide experience becomes more of a feature than a defect.

    But they didn't do any of that. So in the context of the actual game that was released in the real world, the implementation we got - no last-hitting combined with team-wide shared experience, is far more if a flaw than a benefit to the game.

    Also, every time we have this discussion people constantly conflate last-hitting with sharing experience. They are two different mechanics. You can have one without the other, in varying degrees and distinctions. The new Pokemon game has last-hitting but doesn't have shared experience partially because, as someone pointed out earlier, all the mobs on the board are neutral - which is actually a very interesting solution. I've also proposed ideas like having shared experience be distance-based - maybe you get some or all of the experience a teammate gathers while you are near them - so last-hitting becomes more a matter of optimization and strategy rather than an all-or-nothing affair.

  • Options
    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Invictus wrote: »
    Ehhh. Pokemon United's monetization scheme is pretty fuckin' abusive.

    extremely

    It's the worst of the mobas I've seen, with straight up pay to win mechanics.

    @Munkus Beaver For those of us who'd like to be educated, could you fill us in on it's abusiveness?

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
  • Options
    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    on the other hand given that actiblizz have like, 3 legit bush/trump era republican war criminals in the c-suite now (fran townsend among others) maybe its only a matter of time before hots goes for gold

    obF2Wuw.png
  • Options
    RonaldoTheGypsyRonaldoTheGypsy Yes, yes Registered User regular
    DotA started as a WC3 map so there really wasn't an elegant way to share xp. At that time, you started as a wisp and moved onto circles to pick the hero you wanted. Later versions had you pick them out of a tavern after the game started.

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    The biggest mistake HotS made was coming out so late. There is probably a world in which it comes out earlier and is more successful than it became. And as I've mentioned in the past, if they focused on the core of the game, which was working together as a team, then team-wide experience becomes more of a feature than a defect.

    But they didn't do any of that. So in the context of the actual game that was released in the real world, the implementation we got - no last-hitting combined with team-wide shared experience, is far more if a flaw than a benefit to the game.

    Also, every time we have this discussion people constantly conflate last-hitting with sharing experience. They are two different mechanics. You can have one without the other, in varying degrees and distinctions. The new Pokemon game has last-hitting but doesn't have shared experience partially because, as someone pointed out earlier, all the mobs on the board are neutral - which is actually a very interesting solution. I've also proposed ideas like having shared experience be distance-based - maybe you get some or all of the experience a teammate gathers while you are near them - so last-hitting becomes more a matter of optimization and strategy rather than an all-or-nothing affair.

    I equally don't like last hitting and individual xp, so I usually complain about them both together lol

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    Invictus wrote: »
    Ehhh. Pokemon United's monetization scheme is pretty fuckin' abusive.

    extremely

    It's the worst of the mobas I've seen, with straight up pay to win mechanics.

    I completely disagree with this. As I said in the Unite thread, I have spent a grand total of $8 and that was on cosmetics and one ‘mon.

    I’m one win away from breaking out of Great hell.

    The argument goes that you can pay to upgrade your held items to 20 faster. Yes, that will make a “difference” at super-high levels, but it’s not THAT much.

    The complaint is that the free rewards *so far* are only enough to max one held item. It’s pretty silly to assume that the pace of rewards will slow down SO much.

    FFS the game is what… 3 weeks old? There will be plenty of free doodads to upgrade your stuff.

    (Also I submit that having 6-9 level 10 items is more valuable than 1 level 20)

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
  • Options
    Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered User regular
    DotA started as a WC3 map so there really wasn't an elegant way to share xp. At that time, you started as a wisp and moved onto circles to pick the hero you wanted. Later versions had you pick them out of a tavern after the game started.

    Good times.

    H9f4bVe.png
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2021
    Invictus wrote: »
    Ehhh. Pokemon United's monetization scheme is pretty fuckin' abusive.

    extremely

    It's the worst of the mobas I've seen, with straight up pay to win mechanics.

    Munkus Beaver For those of us who'd like to be educated, could you fill us in on it's abusiveness?

    It's a game aimed for kids that encourages impulse buys, getting you to buy the premium currency to buy the widgets you need to upgrade your items.

    So you either are completely FTP and are very, very slowly unlocking characters and upgrading items (which confer a SUBSTANTIAL advantage when upgraded) or you are spending money constantly to get your shit decked out.

    If it were just your standard moba where you had to buy cosmetics it'd be bad enough, since the game is literally targeted at small children. But the fact that they specifically gate item (and thus, character) progression behind collecting ever-increasing widgets means that it's encouraging even more impulse buys.

    The one positive thing I can say about it's monetization scheme is that it doesn't - yet - have any lootboxes.

    But the game is designed to dangled a carrot in front of the player, saying "golly, wouldn't it be nice to have everything upgraded all the way? It's such a shame that you are doing 15% less damage....wouldn't you like to do MORE?"

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    edited July 2021


    The energy tanks are technically loot boxes - you get energy from matches for pulls a list of possible items it shows you rolling over the top of the page and you can purchase additional energy or items that let you build energy faster.

    The loot box rewards are all cosmetics and the item upgrade currency

    SeGaTai on
    PSN SeGaTai
  • Options
    RonaldoTheGypsyRonaldoTheGypsy Yes, yes Registered User regular
    I haven't spent anything and I got a bunch (maybe 5) items to level 10. Items start at 1 and get big upgrades at 10 20 and 30. No matter the size of the advantage, mechanical gains through money are bad. But I felt the same way about new broken heroes in games costing money in other mobas. Unite has a very mobile-esque presentation. I think it'll make them a lot of money and they'll have a lot of players. I don't think it will be competitive. But then again, neither was HOTS.

    Even though dota is free, I have spent money on it. And on league. And on smite. And on hots. But I didn't want to in Unite because of the items and because it didn't seem to matter. The game is easy, and you don't really have the tools to communicate a team of randoms to win, and also the games are too short to matter.

  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »

    The energy tanks are technically loot boxes - you get energy from matches for pulls a list of possible items it shows you rolling over the top of the page and you can purchase additional energy or items that let you build energy faster.

    The loot box rewards are all cosmetics and the item upgrade currency

    Oh so it's a cleverly disguised lootbox.

    Even worse.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    akjakakjak Thera Spooky GymRegistered User regular
    I also disagree that it’s “literally targeted to small children.”

    I have a small children, and he can NOT play this. (Is otherwise very video game savvy)

    Switch: SW-4133-1546-2720 (Thera)
    Twitch: akThera
    Steam: Thera
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    I don't know how you can honestly contest that it's marketed to children.

    And you are markedly ignoring my entire comment about preying on impulse buys.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    25 posts

    Oh... yeah standard
    ;)

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • Options
    MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
    Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
    Steam ID
    Twitch Page
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »

    I honestly forgot what thread I was in when I started responding to the ping.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    You can't use "Abathur is popular" as a reason why "Abathur is bad" :P

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    You can't use "Abathur is popular" as a reason why "Abathur is bad" :P

    No, I'm old - if it's popular, there's a good chance I don't like it

    PSN SeGaTai
  • Options
    A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    Abby and Genji are absolutely the two heroes that I just want deleted

    vm8gvf5p7gqi.jpg
    Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Abby and Genji are absolutely the two heroes that I just want deleted

    TLV for me

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Abby and Genji are absolutely the two heroes that I just want deleted

    TLV for me

    TLV are great

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    kime wrote: »
    Abby and Genji are absolutely the two heroes that I just want deleted

    TLV for me

    TLV are great

    I mean I love abathur but I still recognize people's complaints with the slug.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    I’d be fine with just banning Aba, TLV, And murky from QM.

    They’re fine if you can draft around them, but they can just ruin QM games.

    Honorable mention to ChoGall and Azmo.

  • Options
    milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    Fuck Murky
    Fuck Abathur

    Everyone else is fine.

  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    Fuck Murky
    Fuck Abathur

    Everyone else is fine.

    One of these things is not like the other.

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I mean one's a fish, one's a slug. Obviously they aren't the same ;)

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    one wears a diaper, one wears pajamas

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    When not in pajamas, abathur is 100% naked, right in front of you, 'hatting' you... watching...

    Think about that...

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
Sign In or Register to comment.