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[Heroes of the Storm] thread: Don't get excited, Dibby; we're just talking.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    If they understood soaking they wouldn't be Bronze.

    But...I understand soaking and I'm in Bronze. :sad:

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    forty
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Last night, I tried another ranked game. In draft, I’m showing Diablo and a teammate asks if he can Tank and I play as a Bruiser. I said sure and swapped over to Xul and they took Blaze.

    As the game starts, I said for them to 4-man top while I double soaked mid/bot. He responds with “what’s double soak?”

    Well that’s a red flag, but it’s bronze so ok. I quickly explain it, but the team refuses to go top. As the first obj was spawning, I said to just stall since we’re halfway to 7 and I’ll get us there, then join the fight. Our healer says “you’re annoying Xul”.

    Sigh, Sure enough, they all die and blame me. This continues throughout the match since I’m desperately trying to catch us up on XP and push the lanes out.

    It was close and we could have won, but bronze coordination and skill proved too much to overcome.

    The match ends and Blaze says, “Seriously, you guys are terrible and can all go fuck yourselves.”

    I just…I don’t know.

    I tell this to Kime regularly who plays TLV - even sometimes when a rando recommends it - but heroes that are tied to double soaking have problems when even 1 potato doesn't understand what the comp does.

    I think you should still dbl soak but explaining the comp during the game so rarely works; clear the offlane - go back to mid, if someone is already there you help them clear or look for pick; and then just ping your going back to the offlane on the way out - and mute the first time they say something dumb

    Regardless of if they're good or not, you probably climb out of lower ranks by soaking better than you can with other roles.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Whelk wrote: »
    "MNC Dover" Watching a Fan match on youtube and his chat has your name pop up with "Hi youtube!" after he did some ridiculous Raynor play. Absolutely wonderful!

    Ah, from his Raynor video today.

    0hndq5ijxzbm.png

    Fan had just 1v1'd Deathwing in their base and walked out alive. :lol:

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  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    I appreciated the Malf chasing him around the map becoming increasingly stressed about trying to save Fan who was on the high of stacking.

    MNC DoverSmrtnik
  • milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    edited October 2021
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    My whole thing with Blackheart's is losing the coins when you die and enemies can pick them up. Change that and I'm OK with BHB :D

    My whole thing with BH is that the most potato person on your team will hoard 40 coins, never turn them in, then die split pushing.

    Rude! I read this thread, you know

    Also:

    If you let the potato get all of the coins before you on the map where the coins are the most important things, what does that make you?

    And if the potato on your team has all of the coins on the map where the coins are the most important things, why are they ever left alone to split push in the first place? Wouldn't you be better off babysitting them so they don't die and give up the coins?

    Ladies and gentlemen, the role of @milk ducks will be played this evening by PA's own @Inquisitor77 ; we hope that you enjoy his performance.

    milk ducks on
    Inquisitor77MNC Dovertyrantula22Frem
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    forty wrote: »
    There was a time in HotS where the bot that would pilot a disconnected ally could actually play halfway decently (like good enough not to be a massive liability at, say, gold skill level and below). I miss those days. Now a disconnect bot is basically a concussed feeding machine.

    Yeah what the heck happened here? It used to just play like an AI opponent. Now it either sits at spawn or else someone on the team actually notices and pings the bot to follow, but it just runs in and dies

    Even the AI knows daed gaem and is just trying to end the suffering.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    forty
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    @MNC Dover Fan just basically explained that the best way to get out of bronze / silver is to literally just soak well.

    He just did sammy and soaked 100%, never joined fights, objective, and did his best not to damage enemy heroes at all.

    They won handidly with a 3 level lead, never lost an objective. This was Bronze 1.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    milk ducks
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    @MNC Dover Fan just basically explained that the best way to get out of bronze / silver is to literally just soak well.

    He just did sammy and soaked 100%, never joined fights, objective, and did his best not to damage enemy heroes at all.

    They won handidly with a 3 level lead, never lost an objective. This was Bronze 1.

    You see, people say that sort of thing all the time. Whenever I try it, my teammates always die 4v5 at the obj causing us to lose buildings and any level lead I create. Granted, I'm nowhere near Fan's orbit in terms of skill and map awareness, but there's got to be more to it than that.

    Fuck it, I'm going to jump on Sammy right now and get that free win and cruise right on out of Bronze. Don't know why I didn't start doing this years ago.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Bam! EZPZ!

    3dy3o3cc00gc.png

    Oh wait....

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Gotta outsoak that lava wave!

    Also your teammate picked Medivh in Bronze. I love it.

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    By the numbers that looks like a lot better than your typical Bronze Medivh.

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    "MNC Dover" Fan just basically explained that the best way to get out of bronze / silver is to literally just soak well.

    He just did sammy and soaked 100%, never joined fights, objective, and did his best not to damage enemy heroes at all.

    They won handidly with a 3 level lead, never lost an objective. This was Bronze 1.

    https://clips.twitch.tv/RepleteTubularSageMoreCowbell-fnwVWG4ez0Rwm28q

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  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    kimeMNC Dovermilk ducksfortySeGaTaityrantula22Whelk
  • milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    "MNC Dover" Fan just basically explained that the best way to get out of bronze / silver is to literally just soak well.

    He just did sammy and soaked 100%, never joined fights, objective, and did his best not to damage enemy heroes at all.

    They won handidly with a 3 level lead, never lost an objective. This was Bronze 1.

    This was literally all I did up to Masters. The only consistently effective strategy I've ever been able to develop for HotS has been to simply soak the shit out of every match.

    I wish I were better at Samuro, but he never really clicked with me the way I wanted him to. I've seen Fan play him, so I know how he's meant to work, but I never committed the time to required to really nail it down for myself. Same for Yrel.

    If I want to win a match, I mostly stick on heroes like Sonya and Leoric; tanky heroes with good self-sustain and fast wave-clear, who have strong pick-potential during a rotation and can very quickly score a kill to force the enemy team to disengage, allowing me to go back to soaking immediately. That's what's always worked for me, personally.

    Whelk
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    MMMig wrote: »
    "MNC Dover" Fan just basically explained that the best way to get out of bronze / silver is to literally just soak well.

    He just did sammy and soaked 100%, never joined fights, objective, and did his best not to damage enemy heroes at all.

    They won handidly with a 3 level lead, never lost an objective. This was Bronze 1.

    This was literally all I did up to Masters. The only consistently effective strategy I've ever been able to develop for HotS has been to simply soak the shit out of every match.

    I wish I were better at Samuro, but he never really clicked with me the way I wanted him to. I've seen Fan play him, so I know how he's meant to work, but I never committed the time to required to really nail it down for myself. Same for Yrel.

    If I want to win a match, I mostly stick on heroes like Sonya and Leoric; tanky heroes with good self-sustain and fast wave-clear, who have strong pick-potential during a rotation and can very quickly score a kill to force the enemy team to disengage, allowing me to go back to soaking immediately. That's what's always worked for me, personally.

    Leoric is even better at lane clearing now with his AA buff in the last patch. I've tried a few times to play him, but never clicked. Might give him a try again.

    Last night I got a win with Rag, although not using Lava Wave. I went full E build and tried to soak as much as possible. When we did fight, I hit 3 different ults for that massively swung the fight in our favor. One of them was against a Naz that was channeling his ult to finish off my team. The hammer landed on him to save 3 teammates AND brought his health down by almost half?! That ult hits HARD in the center.

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  • ApogeeApogee Lancks In Every Game Ever Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    milk ducks wrote: »
    MMMig wrote: »
    "MNC Dover" Fan just basically explained that the best way to get out of bronze / silver is to literally just soak well.

    He just did sammy and soaked 100%, never joined fights, objective, and did his best not to damage enemy heroes at all.

    They won handidly with a 3 level lead, never lost an objective. This was Bronze 1.

    This was literally all I did up to Masters. The only consistently effective strategy I've ever been able to develop for HotS has been to simply soak the shit out of every match.

    I wish I were better at Samuro, but he never really clicked with me the way I wanted him to. I've seen Fan play him, so I know how he's meant to work, but I never committed the time to required to really nail it down for myself. Same for Yrel.

    If I want to win a match, I mostly stick on heroes like Sonya and Leoric; tanky heroes with good self-sustain and fast wave-clear, who have strong pick-potential during a rotation and can very quickly score a kill to force the enemy team to disengage, allowing me to go back to soaking immediately. That's what's always worked for me, personally.

    Leoric is even better at lane clearing now with his AA buff in the last patch. I've tried a few times to play him, but never clicked. Might give him a try again.

    Last night I got a win with Rag, although not using Lava Wave. I went full E build and tried to soak as much as possible. When we did fight, I hit 3 different ults for that massively swung the fight in our favor. One of them was against a Naz that was channeling his ult to finish off my team. The hammer landed on him to save 3 teammates AND brought his health down by almost half?! That ult hits HARD in the center.

    Yeah, I always take the hammer ult for Rag... it's just *so* satisfying to nail someone with that. It's practically required to do a fist-pump afterwards.

    Apogee on
    8R7BtLw.png
  • milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    If a Naz picks Ravenous Spirit, he's giving you a free win. If he picks it into Sulfuras Smash, he's literally trolling his team.

    A Dabble Of TheloniusWhelkMNC Dovertyrantula22SaerisApogeeMunkus BeaverMoridin889
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    I remember trying out Sulfuras Smash and not seeing the big deal, instead moving to "Lava Wave 4 life!". After listening to a pro on a podcast talk about Rag's ults, he boiled them down to something like this:

    "Lava Wave keeps you in losing games for a longer time. Sulfuras Smash will help you win a post-16/20 fight, which ultimately decides most matches."

    That made a lot of sense and so I went back in and tried it again. The one difference from when I tried before and now is that somewhere in the time period, I switched over to "on-release" for my abilities. Seeing the targeting reticule, and more importantly the center circle spot on the ult, made a huge difference.

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  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    edited October 2021
    I can agree with that, but Rag's ult lets you stack pressure in other lanes. So rotations become easier. Valuation for ults changes based on skill. Lava Wave wins low ELO games on its back because it makes those rotations easier. You can cover a lane for several waves while you get a camp or during a teamfight. Rag isn't a terrible character otherwise, but you're usually not taking him for his middle of the road bruiser nature. You're either picking him into a melee heavy comp for Q resets or to ride Lava Wave's xp train. The timings are important on it because it clears multiple waves, and that time advantage is huge.

    I like Sulfuras, but it's just not the reason you take the dude.

    Whelk on
    milk ducks
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Lava Wave is also an occasional "super double soak". Double soaking is valuable because it lets you be somewhere else while you soak the lane.

    Lava Wave is good!

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    While I agree on a lot of points being made, having been hard stuck in Bronze/Silver for years, the only thing I know to be true is that XP leads don't mean much at low levels. Yes, getting to 10 is a huge boon, but fighting with ults doesn't mean anything if your team isn't working together. Time and time again, I get us level leads and watch them vanish because the team can't work together. 4v5 with ults is still a losing situation.

    The only times teammates work together is when they're post 16/20 and win a team fight. Typically, everyone rotates to camps/boss or knocks down a Keep/Fort. But I can count on one hand the number of times I type "get 10 then fight" or "almost 20, then fight" and they actually do it. In those cases, Smash has more impact than Lava Wave.

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  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    The current bronze to gm run for Fan has had multiple games of him enraged at the one player one his team who is just trying to soak and avoids every teamfight. I'm not watching closely enough to know if those players are really just taking the soak can carry you out of bronze mantra to heart or if they are trolling fan - who knows, but soak won't win if your team keeps taking 4v5s - and they will

    PSN SeGaTai
    MNC DoverfortyA Dabble Of TheloniusMoridin889MMMigPhoenix-D
  • KorrorKorror Registered User regular
    I think a lot of hots is knowing when you should be getting soak and when you can be with your team.

    When I'm playing off lane and not being a dedicated double soaker, my goal is to get the XP and go do something useful which is either hover near my team or get camps. This is less true on a control objective map of course but a lot of the time I think it's correct to miss a wave if it means you can help your team accomplish something else on the map. Getting a kill, stealing a camp or getting structure damage is more impactful than getting a wave of XP especially if teams are roughly equal on XP and it's post 10.

    Now if your team is just milling about and not doing anything then there's no reason to join them but if fight looks likely to break out, you'll contribute more by showing up before the other offlaner rather than getting that last wave minions.

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    I strongly recommend Ragnaros for new and lower-bracket players specifically because he's easy to use. I don't expect players at that level to be fantastic at soaking, or to play without making any mistakes. So Lava Wave ensures that you'll be maintaining high XP Contribution regardless of any errors in timing, decision making, or ability; you just press R on cooldown and you'll essentially prevent your team from ever suffering a level disadvantage.

    I don't think that Ragnaros is a strong competitive pick, typically; he's super middle-of-the-road and really only has value in a handful of matchups or map-type scenarios. But there's value in what he brings to the table in the lower brackets -- the same value that Li Li tends to bring to the Healer role at that level, which is that they're really easy to play and good enough at what they do that they allow players to focus more on gameplay fundamentals like positioning / camp timing / effective team rotations / CC layering / etc.

    I do think the point that was made about Sulfuras Smash being impactful post-16 is accurate; a solid Smash on an appropriate target at the appropriate time has the ability to end a match. I would only argue that Lava Wava has value in every single match, from level 10 onward, whereas with Sulfuras Smash, MAYBE you get to 16-20, MAYBE there's a situation where a Smash can end the match, MAYBE you score that hit, MAYBE your teammates capitalize on it and push for the win, etc. In my experience, the only one of those things that's likely to happen in a Bronze/Silver league match is that the game will go 16+, because it's rare that teams at that level can recognize that a GG push is possible unless everyone's 20+ and it's a full team wipe.

    WhelkMNC DoverSmrtnik
  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    That's the thing, if you're trying to get out of those brackets, the level advantage is what's going to do it. You can't prevent your teammates from being stupid, which you can see when Fan does his rank ups. You can get the XP you need and be where you're supposed to.

    HotS isn't a game where you can hard carry, which is why the soft carry is just doing what needs to be done.

    milk ducksSmrtnikMoridin889
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    I remember a few years ago being frustrated at being unable to get out of Silver and my wife (plat/Diamond at the time) kept dolling out advice. Finally I just gave her my login info and told her to get me out of Silver.

    She started out rocking, but by day two she came to me super frustrated and yelling that “they’re all idiots and it’s impossible to get out.”

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    Cursed account.

    MNC Dover
  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    Did you ever try smurfing? I'm curious what would happen. My smurf account wound up where I was normally.

  • milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    I had a smurf account once called MFDuckytime that literally won like 45+ matches straight. My MMR on Hotslogs was unreal.

    Whelk
  • InvictusInvictus Registered User regular
    I always wanted to play Sulfuras Smash Rag because I looove big impactful swingy ults like that; mosh pit ETC is probably my best character. But I'm basically not good enough to hit moving characters with the center without a lot of practice, and hard to pick Smash knowing you're going to miss a bunch when Lava Wave is such guaranteed value.

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    forty
  • milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    edited October 2021
    If you like big, impactful ults but you don't feel confident in your ability to land them, try Mephisto: he's easy to play; substantially more powerful in competitive than Ragnaros; and Consume Souls hits harder (total damage per cast) than Smash, cannot miss, has a comparable cooldown if you're reducing it effectively, and can literally end any match on its own every time it's off cooldown -- particularly post-20, when a single kill can reset into a total team wipe.

    milk ducks on
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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
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  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Halloween hots event in 3... 2...

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    Any new skins this year?

  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    Besides the overwatch cosplay ones?

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    :(

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    Apogee
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Man, the first clip of this video was immensely satisfying.

    https://youtu.be/XvpDCXq2BN0

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Man, the first clip of this video was immensely satisfying.

    https://youtu.be/XvpDCXq2BN0

    I don't understand what happened with that Illidan and Hanzo on merc camp.

    steam_sig.png
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    Illidan used The Hunt on Hanzo, and Hanzo timed his jump over terrain such that Illidan ended up getting placed on the opposite side of the terrain when the Hunt reached Hanzo.

    Smrtnik
  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Man, the first clip of this video was immensely satisfying.

    https://youtu.be/XvpDCXq2BN0

    I don't understand what happened with that Illidan and Hanzo on merc camp.

    Buffered the wall jump so Illidan hit on one side and the stun occurred while Hanzo was leaping to the other

    MNC Dover
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