Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Bfa felt to me like they weren’t ready to jump into the sylvanus and shadowlands explanation yet, so slow dropped info leading up to it and made bfa just a bunch of filler. That is why it just tackles a bunch of random stuff quickly.
The war in the background was them dragging out the fact that the lead up to shadowlands was basically “sylvanus is under orders to send souls to the maw. She does this by facilitating war”
I mean that is basically what the main Warcraft plot line advancement boiled down to with bfa. Otherwise it was just a bunch of small side plots given more dramatic treatment. I mean we expected more of nzoth, but every single old god so far has been a side story in a single raid. Not surprising this one wasn’t different.
I don’t think the sword was ever planned to be “solved” either. A fucking huge titan stabbed the planet. It isn’t exactly something you just remove. I figure the point they were making was we just stabilize it’s impact with the neck. So that is just the new way of the world
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
BfA had no cohesive story. 8.0 was about exploding magic rocks that the factions were willing to go to war over. 8.1 continued the war but the magic rocks didn't really seem to matter anymore. 8.2 abandoned the war completely and decided we needed to fight Azshara for some reason. And then 8.3 gave us the Black Empire, Ny'alotha, and N'Zoth, and we have completely forgotten about the explodey rocks, the war, and even Azshara was forgotten. The "story" if you can even call it that, is fragmented, makes no sense, and has no resolution to any of the plots it introduced.
8.2 dealing with Azshara is because we are "trapped" on the ocean seafloor until we do. The fact there is portals and hearthstones in a convenience to this being a videogame, by lore we cleared the raid that afternoon.
Azshara is in 8.3, part of one of the boss fights.
Man, as someone who played almost exclusively RP realms with this game, one of the most obnoxious things to run into were people who treated the video game VERY literally when it came to either lore or RP'ing.
+3
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
The reason we ended up with fighting aszarha is because she made a deal with sylvanus. Which involved syl giving az the dagger, in exchange for az getting a bunch of people killed for syl’s shadowlands thing. That is explained in a mid combat background scene of the nzoth fight so uhh easy to miss.
Pretty much they tried to tie together everything syl makes happen is to have more people die. The war resulting in dazaralor’s battle, us getting swallowed by the sea. The nzoth thing was just happening in the background because of stabby stab. It should have just been the whole expansion though.
8.2 dealing with Azshara is because we are "trapped" on the ocean seafloor until we do. The fact there is portals and hearthstones in a convenience to this being a videogame, by lore we cleared the raid that afternoon.
Except that this is not true at all. The story literally stops and makes a point that Oculeth is there with you, you help him open a way home by channeling your Heart of Azeroth, which somehow by lore hand waving, is untraceable by Azshara's magical trap. THEN. Theeeeeennnnnnn, you go on this whole freakin' side adventure in Mechagon before you ever return to Naz and finish the Azshara plot. All of this is presented in-lore. Being trapped in a whirlpool lasts all of 10 seconds before the story and lore send you off to discover a forgotten island full of robot gnomes that is just like... right there off the coast of Kul'Tiras and like not really hard to find at all, but somehow nobody knew about it even though this universe has boats, flying ships, people who ride griffons all day long, magical scrying and teleporting, and also just like, you know.... using your eyes and looking out across the beach and being like "oh hey there's an island over there."
Yes, the Oculeth story might have been concocted as a way to justify a portal home, but that doesn't change the fact that it is part of the story, and it is part of the lore.
Azshara is in 8.3, part of one of the boss fights.
Yes. I know. And then we just walk away, leaving her there, completely forgetting about her, and the 10,000 years of tyranny, crimes against humanity, and evil deeds. That's what I meant when I said Azshara was forgotten. The story literally forgets about her. She hands the dagger to Wrathion and then what? Nothing. Just another loose thread.
+1
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I wouldn't rely on the literal game space as lore space. Just because you can see another piece of land from the shore in-game doesn't mean that's how it is by lore. It's a video game; the world it is representing is a condensed version. Goldshire is not literally three buildings big in the lore.
I thought we we got N’Zoth in 8.3 because it was the logical progression from Azshara. They’re his creation/army, so when you make a deal with the naga, you get the attention of N’Zoth as a free bonus.
I wouldn't rely on the literal game space as lore space. Just because you can see another piece of land from the shore in-game doesn't mean that's how it is by lore. It's a video game; the world it is representing is a condensed version. Goldshire is not literally three buildings big in the lore.
i actually think them not killing azshara is a rare demonstration of showing restraint in their storytelling and keeping a piece on the board for them to use again later
It would've been better if they just said "no one will believe you that she's doing these awful things" and just had you as a viewpoint eventually swaying some of your allies over time. Would've gotten rid of some of the agency issues, allowed us to see how it's systemic, and set her up for being a villain but us not being able to do anything Horde-side.
They always seem to want to have payoff without acknowledging that we're playing the game or putting in the chain of events it needs.
BFA definitely has a full story. I despised the first 1/3 of BFA's story with it's patriotic war campaign bullshit... but every event is connected. It's more coherent than most expansions.
On Mechagon... not every piece of content has to serve the progression overall story. I like when WoW embraces an idea for the fun of it! Did the Isle of Giants play into the story of the Thunder King? Nope, but dinosaurs are cool. Did the Timeless Isle have anything to do with the Siege of Ogrimmar? No, aside from the asspull of creating WoD but you could do that without Timeless Isle. Did it make any sense to setup the argent tournament and spend weeks dueling each other with plastic lances while sitting literally in the shadow of Icecrown Citadel? No, it was fucking stupid but it was a fun idea with some interesting execution.
Personally I loved the contrast that Mechagon provided. The battle between old gods and titans has long raged with extremists in both corners. In 8.2 you have two contrasting leaders. Azshara embraces the gifts of the Old Gods. The Naga become more twisted and eldritch the deeper you go into Nazjatar often losing themselves to the power they've obtained. Then you have a cautionary tale of the opposite in Mechagon where the idolization of titanic fleshless perfection strips one of their free will. Both paths enslave themselves to a "greater power" and eventually lose everything for it.
It may not advance the main plot but it's fun and plays with the themes that WoW has built stories on since Wrath.
At the end, Blizzard is gonna do a big "gotcha" where we find out that her plan was to save Azeroth all along, and really she's the hero, even if she had to take the unsavory path to get there. In other words, what I'm saying is that Blizzard is going to attempt to pull a "Watchmen" on us. But since it will be written by Christie ImAHack Golden, it won't be good.
Sylvanas is never going to be a raid boss, and she is never truly going to be the big bad either.
BFA definitely has a full story. I despised the first 1/3 of BFA's story with it's patriotic war campaign bullshit... but every event is connected. It's more coherent than most expansions.
On Mechagon... not every piece of content has to serve the progression overall story. I like when WoW embraces an idea for the fun of it! Did the Isle of Giants play into the story of the Thunder King? Nope, but dinosaurs are cool. Did the Timeless Isle have anything to do with the Siege of Ogrimmar? No, aside from the asspull of creating WoD but you could do that without Timeless Isle. Did it make any sense to setup the argent tournament and spend weeks dueling each other with plastic lances while sitting literally in the shadow of Icecrown Citadel? No, it was fucking stupid but it was a fun idea with some interesting execution.
Personally I loved the contrast that Mechagon provided. The battle between old gods and titans has long raged with extremists in both corners. In 8.2 you have two contrasting leaders. Azshara embraces the gifts of the Old Gods. The Naga become more twisted and eldritch the deeper you go into Nazjatar often losing themselves to the power they've obtained. Then you have a cautionary tale of the opposite in Mechagon where adherence and idolization of titanic fleshless perfection strips one of their free will. Both paths enslave themselves to a "greater power" and eventually lose everything for it.
It may not advance the main plot but it's fun and plays with the themes that WoW has built stories on since Wrath.
Ulduar had basically nothing to do with the overarching plot of that expansion(stop Arthas) but it was one of the best pieces of content they ever added.
I actually quite like Legion Sylvanas; still scheming and shitty, but in a way that makes sense for accomplishing her goals and that isn't necessarily bad for the Horde.
She's also presented as being genuinely surprised and thoughtful in response to Vol'jin choosing her.
It feels like her character can go either way in Legion, it's actually the first and only time I'd describe myself as a Sylvanas fan.
Her BFA writing, like all of BFA writing, is an absolute disaster, and it really didn't have to be even if they wanted her to end up in the same place she does.
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I do have one question since I technically never finished BfA (especially on Horde side).
Who / what ended up being Vol'jin's manipulator in naming Sylvanas Warchief? Was it just Whatever That Old God's Name Is?
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
The Argent Tournament made some sense because they only wanted the best of the best to raid Icecrown, as any who died would add to the enemy’s numbers. It’s in Icecrown for technical reasons: it was supposed to be in Crystalsong Forest, but they realized that Dalaran is there too, and adding more players would make the zone unbearably laggy.
The Argent Tournament made some sense because they only wanted the best of the best to raid Icecrown, as any who died would add to the enemy’s numbers. It’s in Icecrown for technical reasons: it was supposed to be in Crystalsong Forest, but they realized that Dalaran is there too, and adding more players would make the zone unbearably laggy.
And God knows that Lagaran was already quite laggy at peak times anyways.
+6
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Poor crystal song. They sacrificed a whole zone just because of Dalaran performance.
+7
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
oh man the tournament would have made SO much more sense in crystalsong. Especially all the "go to the various other ends of Northrend to do a thing" daily quests.
I think it's pretty clear that Dalaran was a learning experience for them about what their engine could and could not handle, and a lot of the problems didn't reveal themselves until it was difficult to make changes on time. Nothing quite works like Dalaran again, and very noticeably when they bring Dalaran back it's out off the coast a ways away from everything else.
+3
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Does everything still load in a cylinder around your character to this day? If loading characters / NPCs was able to be done as a sphere Dalaran probably wouldn't have been as big a problem.
WoW’s code is such a gordian knot that they probably figured it was easier to put the tournament in Icecrown than mess with how the capital city for Wrath functioned.
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
They had Phasing in Wrath but it was SUPER primitive.
Cata was when they began to go all in on Phasing, adding it to all the questing. Likely that is when the servers were upgraded too I guess?
But yeah even though they likely could have easily solved the problem by Legion, they still put Dalaran effectively in it's own zone. They learned their lesson on that.
+1
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I wouldn't say Cataclysm was where it was "all out" per se. I think in Cataclysm they introduced using phasing for temporary world situations, like the Stitches quest in Darkshire where it is attacking the town. Phasing use in WotLK was for more permanent states in locations. Since then they've been using both methods as is needed throughout the game. It largely allowed for things like the daily quests that rotate around for faction rep.
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
A lot of the Cata redone quests do a ton of phasing. In some of the wild leveling tricks videos people point out how much of it phased. Sometimes you change phase in each quest in a line even.
WOTLK did it to change some spots in the word after you finished a fairly long line. Like maybe halfway through a quest line you would be in a new phase for half or all of the zone. Was noticeable when someone finished a questline you only started and you couldn't find them.
I don't think Bowen was talking about phasing it, but something like placing Dalaran along one of Crystalsong's borders, moving anything quest or gameplay related out of the territory under it, and then swiss cheese the resulting cylinder of map space into its own zone.
There is also a difference between phasing and sharding. Phasing is when the state of the world changes for you because you did some quest. Sharding is when there is too many people in an area it splits it up into more than one instance, and recombines if enough people leave.
+2
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
They definitely significantly advanced sharding tech with Legion. I remember there being some tech blue posts about it.
+3
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited August 2020
I think Twilight Devastation might be the mechanic I've enjoyed the most while simultaneously missing it the least once it's gone.
Posts
The war in the background was them dragging out the fact that the lead up to shadowlands was basically “sylvanus is under orders to send souls to the maw. She does this by facilitating war”
I mean that is basically what the main Warcraft plot line advancement boiled down to with bfa. Otherwise it was just a bunch of small side plots given more dramatic treatment. I mean we expected more of nzoth, but every single old god so far has been a side story in a single raid. Not surprising this one wasn’t different.
I don’t think the sword was ever planned to be “solved” either. A fucking huge titan stabbed the planet. It isn’t exactly something you just remove. I figure the point they were making was we just stabilize it’s impact with the neck. So that is just the new way of the world
Pretty much they tried to tie together everything syl makes happen is to have more people die. The war resulting in dazaralor’s battle, us getting swallowed by the sea. The nzoth thing was just happening in the background because of stabby stab. It should have just been the whole expansion though.
Except that this is not true at all. The story literally stops and makes a point that Oculeth is there with you, you help him open a way home by channeling your Heart of Azeroth, which somehow by lore hand waving, is untraceable by Azshara's magical trap. THEN. Theeeeeennnnnnn, you go on this whole freakin' side adventure in Mechagon before you ever return to Naz and finish the Azshara plot. All of this is presented in-lore. Being trapped in a whirlpool lasts all of 10 seconds before the story and lore send you off to discover a forgotten island full of robot gnomes that is just like... right there off the coast of Kul'Tiras and like not really hard to find at all, but somehow nobody knew about it even though this universe has boats, flying ships, people who ride griffons all day long, magical scrying and teleporting, and also just like, you know.... using your eyes and looking out across the beach and being like "oh hey there's an island over there."
Yes, the Oculeth story might have been concocted as a way to justify a portal home, but that doesn't change the fact that it is part of the story, and it is part of the lore.
Yes. I know. And then we just walk away, leaving her there, completely forgetting about her, and the 10,000 years of tyranny, crimes against humanity, and evil deeds. That's what I meant when I said Azshara was forgotten. The story literally forgets about her. She hands the dagger to Wrathion and then what? Nothing. Just another loose thread.
Goldshire in lore has like 20k residents.
They always seem to want to have payoff without acknowledging that we're playing the game or putting in the chain of events it needs.
On Mechagon... not every piece of content has to serve the progression overall story. I like when WoW embraces an idea for the fun of it! Did the Isle of Giants play into the story of the Thunder King? Nope, but dinosaurs are cool. Did the Timeless Isle have anything to do with the Siege of Ogrimmar? No, aside from the asspull of creating WoD but you could do that without Timeless Isle. Did it make any sense to setup the argent tournament and spend weeks dueling each other with plastic lances while sitting literally in the shadow of Icecrown Citadel? No, it was fucking stupid but it was a fun idea with some interesting execution.
Personally I loved the contrast that Mechagon provided. The battle between old gods and titans has long raged with extremists in both corners. In 8.2 you have two contrasting leaders. Azshara embraces the gifts of the Old Gods. The Naga become more twisted and eldritch the deeper you go into Nazjatar often losing themselves to the power they've obtained. Then you have a cautionary tale of the opposite in Mechagon where the idolization of titanic fleshless perfection strips one of their free will. Both paths enslave themselves to a "greater power" and eventually lose everything for it.
It may not advance the main plot but it's fun and plays with the themes that WoW has built stories on since Wrath.
There's always "merely a setback"
Ulduar had basically nothing to do with the overarching plot of that expansion(stop Arthas) but it was one of the best pieces of content they ever added.
She's also presented as being genuinely surprised and thoughtful in response to Vol'jin choosing her.
It feels like her character can go either way in Legion, it's actually the first and only time I'd describe myself as a Sylvanas fan.
Her BFA writing, like all of BFA writing, is an absolute disaster, and it really didn't have to be even if they wanted her to end up in the same place she does.
Who / what ended up being Vol'jin's manipulator in naming Sylvanas Warchief? Was it just Whatever That Old God's Name Is?
They don't reveal that in BfA, it's revealed in Shadowlands.
And God knows that Lagaran was already quite laggy at peak times anyways.
One of the coolest looking zones in the game, too!
They didn't figure out how to do that until WoD.
Cata was when they began to go all in on Phasing, adding it to all the questing. Likely that is when the servers were upgraded too I guess?
But yeah even though they likely could have easily solved the problem by Legion, they still put Dalaran effectively in it's own zone. They learned their lesson on that.
WOTLK did it to change some spots in the word after you finished a fairly long line. Like maybe halfway through a quest line you would be in a new phase for half or all of the zone. Was noticeable when someone finished a questline you only started and you couldn't find them.
They just decided to leverage increasingly with each expansion.
Funny to think that now, not being able to find someone in the open world without partying with them is just the accepted norm.
I don't think Bowen was talking about phasing it, but something like placing Dalaran along one of Crystalsong's borders, moving anything quest or gameplay related out of the territory under it, and then swiss cheese the resulting cylinder of map space into its own zone.
I don't think that's true.
If you're near your body you can see everything normally?