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after i did a run yesterday where the only DPS power i got was "you can cast chaos bolt for health instead of mana" and spent the next half hour just mashing one button i welcome all torghast nerfs
0
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Man Blizzard really can't do anything right with this crowd huh. They get yelled at for not testing every possible thing and coming out of Beta with concrete balanced numbers for absolutely every spec, now people are yelling at them for using the numbers from the testing in Beta because "of course things will be different on Live!!!!"
If you don't recognize the individual voices in "this crowd" then I guess this would be your takeaway, but I argued that expecting perfect balance out of beta was ludicrous and am now arguing that expecting player behavior in Live to mimic player behavior in Beta is equally ludicrous.
MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
My problem with Torghast, though I've only done 5 non-story runs so far, is that it takes too long to complete with the reward only at the end coupled with the fact that you can't do something else and come back or even afk for a bathroom. So can't do a dungeon or BG queue or even join your guild when someone organizes a mythic run.
And it looks like butts. The entire thing is just grey and the mobs are grey.
Like I'll do one floor and then go play a different game because I literally don't want to play WoW anymore.
And it's weird, I liked the first time I did it. I thought the anima powerup thing was interesting and changes the play style in interesting ways.
But make it a lot shorter with incremental rewards and add some damn colour.
My issue with the statement about power level or whatever is that you have to do tier 3 at the min to get legendary memories from Torg and for some classes doing that solo is a herculean fucking effort. And "just gear up" when certain levels of gearing up is time gated/dependent on finding people to group with you who might not want you if you don't have the current in meta legendary that you should totally have you noob.
And yeah rewards there are non existent. Fail a run? Wasted 30 mins to an hour. You get Willy Wonka'd.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
@Saeris and I two manned as paladins both wings on layer 8, him tanking and me dpsing. Upper reaches was god awful, there was nothing interesting there. Every elite was a massive damage sponge where we would just sit there for minutes at a time whacking away until it died. I'm just glad I got enough damage boosters but jeez what a slog. Wait, no, the one interesting thing was Saeris picking the power that knocks back enemies when he's struck for more than 5% of his health. I can just imagine him smirking every time I cried out in rage when the massive HP elite was knocked to Africa while my wings and forbearance buffs ticked down to 0.
Thankfully the fracture chambers were WAY more interesting. Only the occasional damage sponge, lots of traps that we fucked up hilariously, and lots of fun with the anima power that would randomly mind control something. The last boss was that floating caster vampire that frequently drops blood stuff on the ground. That was dicey as fuck, because he had super quick cast times and the spells would chunk both of us whenever they went off. Also Saeris murdered me when he took the invincibility for 1.5 minutes anima power at the start of our first attempt. Had to maximise all the anima power combos and abilities with drums and tight interrupts to take the bastard down.
I thought that boss was in Upper Reaches. Wasn't the Fracture Chambers boss much easier and we just deleted him?
Overall I gotta say I love the Maw and Torghast. But it sounds like that might only be because I'm a paladin. Hopefully they can tune things up so that every class can enjoy both.
Oh, you’re right. Fracture was the uhhh ghost guy that would channel a fade DR or immune thing. Okay so upper reaches had one redeeming feature, other than that it was terrible!
Ah now I read there are nerfs. Well, at least it was an experience.
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I also think the lack of a consistent difficulty level is an issue in Torghast. I cleared Fractured Chambers F7 with ease as prot Pally, but barely squeaked through Upper Reaches F6. Some wings just being harder than others (or harder for specific classes, in theory?) is fine, but when only two are open a week and you have to clear two for your rewards... ughk.
I've been going at this expansion pretty casually so far, and reading all this stuff has me pretty nervous about the catch-up game. Like I just hit 60 earlier this week and I'm something like 2/7 Revendreth, so I'll probably just finally unlock the covenant choice and beginning of the end game content this weekend.
+1
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I've been going at this expansion pretty casually so far, and reading all this stuff has me pretty nervous about the catch-up game. Like I just hit 60 earlier this week and I'm something like 2/7 Revendreth, so I'll probably just finally unlock the covenant choice and beginning of the end game content this weekend.
The only thing you can't catch up on is Soul Ash for crafting legendaries (and maybe Souls for upgrading your Sanctum, but there's no player power tied to that, it's purely cosmetic/fun stuff). Everything else has catchup mechanics, with the big one being Renown since so much is tied to that.
0
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
And you'll be able to get your legendary in a week or two of Torghast anyways. The special ability is the most important part and you'll be able to catch up in ilvl faster than others are increasing it (210 in a week, 225 in another week, and it caps at 235 which most people won't have for 3+ weeks, and that's ignoring that a lot of players probably went for 2-3 legendaries instead of just pushing one.)
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Either I'm leveling to fast or I'm missing out on gear some how but I'm level 58 on the area after bastion and I can't run dungeons through the dungeon finder anymore. I'm at ilvl 108 and to be able to do the next dungeon I need 115 and then 125 after that.
Kind of whack.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Well it sounds like there are "good" legendaries and "bad" ones, and potentially the content that drops the items for your good ones could take a while to access/farm/slot machine into? Am I understanding that correctly?
Either I'm leveling to fast or I'm missing out on gear some how but I'm level 58 on the area after bastion and I can't run dungeons through the dungeon finder anymore. I'm at ilvl 108 and to be able to do the next dungeon I need 115 and then 125 after that.
Kind of whack.
Yeah, it turns out if you do all the side quests and such (and/or get a significant amount of XP from mining/herbing), you kind of outlevel the zone progression like crazy. After hitting level 55 in Bastion, I decided I'd just leave all the side quests for later. The leveling seems pretty tuned around just doing the main storyline quests and getting through the zones ASAP.
Well it sounds like there are "good" legendaries and "bad" ones, and potentially the content that drops the items for your good ones could take a while to access/farm/slot machine into? Am I understanding that correctly?
My understanding is that no one is having a particularly hard time getting a good one. Some people are holding out for the ideal one and thats taking longer. This was probably not necessary for them.
Every class has a perfectly usable legendary available pre-raid and even if it's not The Best One it's still a tremendous amount of stats for the slot.
It’s staggering that after Island Expeditions they made yet another feature with just one reward at the end. No Anima, Stygia, or unique currency per floor? That would have made a LOT of the complaints go away since wiping on the boss isn’t as bad when you’re five Torghast Toblerones closer to earning that cool pet. Making the entire experience so lean on rewards feels like they aren’t learning lessons from BFA, which is worrying.
It is pretty weird that they haven't incorporated more elements of the popular roguelikes (roguelites) of the past few years.
Blizzard used to be really good at assessing a genre landscape, finding a collection of mechanics scattered across multiple games, then blending those together into something beautiful. Certainly the original WoW did that by looking across all of the MMOs at the time and sampling the best features of each. Sometimes it seems like they don't want to do that anymore. Which is fair, I guess; sometimes originality is better. It just seems like Torghast is one case where they could've synthesized something really great from the genre at large. And again, I love Torghast, but it could still be a lot better.
edit: Ehh you know what, I take it back partially, they are still good at that in general. But it seems they didn't do it with Torghast. Curious.
Saeris on
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I think that is due to the involvement of higher ups still pushing for metrics and shit. Shadowlands seems to have had a lot more freedom to go back to WoWs roots and also do what fans wanted because of where things stood in bfa, but I doubt there was no fiddling going on at all.
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
Either I'm leveling to fast or I'm missing out on gear some how but I'm level 58 on the area after bastion and I can't run dungeons through the dungeon finder anymore. I'm at ilvl 108 and to be able to do the next dungeon I need 115 and then 125 after that.
Kind of whack.
Yup, same issue I had. I also got the dungeon quest for those zones after I outlevel the dungeon so had to wait until level 60 to complete them.
Either I'm leveling to fast or I'm missing out on gear some how but I'm level 58 on the area after bastion and I can't run dungeons through the dungeon finder anymore. I'm at ilvl 108 and to be able to do the next dungeon I need 115 and then 125 after that.
Kind of whack.
Yup, same issue I had. I also got the dungeon quest for those zones after I outlevel the dungeon so had to wait until level 60 to complete them.
Yea, that is where I'm at, can't do the dungeon quests. I kept getting the same dungeon for the area after bastion and I was curious why, hadn't realized that the dungeons were level based. I don't remember battle for azeroth being that way.
Random dungeon queue gave a lot of exp too. Kind of bummed.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Either I'm leveling to fast or I'm missing out on gear some how but I'm level 58 on the area after bastion and I can't run dungeons through the dungeon finder anymore. I'm at ilvl 108 and to be able to do the next dungeon I need 115 and then 125 after that.
Kind of whack.
Yup, same issue I had. I also got the dungeon quest for those zones after I outlevel the dungeon so had to wait until level 60 to complete them.
Yea, that is where I'm at, can't do the dungeon quests. I kept getting the same dungeon for the area after bastion and I was curious why, hadn't realized that the dungeons were level based. I don't remember battle for azeroth being that way.
Random dungeon queue gave a lot of exp too. Kind of bummed.
Wait until you hit 60 and realize you still have to finish the main level up storyline (quests that have that shield icon around them) before you can access the endgame.
Well it sounds like there are "good" legendaries and "bad" ones, and potentially the content that drops the items for your good ones could take a while to access/farm/slot machine into? Am I understanding that correctly?
My understanding is that no one is having a particularly hard time getting a good one. Some people are holding out for the ideal one and thats taking longer. This was probably not necessary for them.
Keep in mind that you may have a legendary that increases the damage on a single target ability, another that makes your aoe be usable more often (shorter cooldown), another that gives you a passive autoattack boost when your target is in execute range, and another that makes it so when you interrupt a spell cast you get some shiny (a bunch of main stat or a big heal or whatever). Which one is the best? The answer depends on the context. Patchwerk? Cleave boss? Boss with nasty enrage at low hp? M+ on fortified week? Arena? Rated battleground and you're the flag carrier? Etc... Which is the argument for crafting all (or many) of them eventually. Especially since some are generic to all classes, some are generic to specific classes, and some to specific specs.
+1
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
It is pretty weird that they haven't incorporated more elements of the popular roguelikes (roguelites) of the past few years.
Blizzard used to be really good at assessing a genre landscape, finding a collection of mechanics scattered across multiple games, then blending those together into something beautiful. Certainly the original WoW did that by looking across all of the MMOs at the time and sampling the best features of each. Sometimes it seems like they don't want to do that anymore. Which is fair, I guess; sometimes originality is better. It just seems like Torghast is one case where they could've synthesized something really great from the genre at large. And again, I love Torghast, but it could still be a lot better.
edit: Ehh you know what, I take it back partially, they are still good at that in general. But it seems they didn't do it with Torghast. Curious.
I think it’s quite a bit different when you’re building that out as a single sub-system in an MMO rather than a game on its own. Torghast is not “Blizzard’s go at a roguelike” it’s “WoW’s go at a roguelike.”
You have to do heroics in order to do the LFR? Did they learn nothing from WoD?
I'm ilevel 171 without running a single dungeon, so no you do not need to. Level 2 leggo and a crafted Darkmoon card trinket. Rest is rep and story rewards and some WQ gear. Oh and a pvp Honor weapon with 2 upgrades.
There's also a nice assortment of covenant armour that alts will rapidly gain access to with renown catchup and completing all the campaign stuff available thus far.
Part of the problem is that they invited too many top end players, mythic raiders, and high M+ key runners into the beta, and not enough average players, at least that's my impression of the beta.
Of course their metrics for Torghast layer 8 are skewed, when the super elite 1% players that they invited are able to clear it with the template characters who started at 184. But just because Preach and his friends can do it doesn't mean the average player can, and it just seems like they put way too much emphasis in this beta on the content creators and top end players.
Ultimately though, it is a failure on their part. They should attach both a recommended ilevel as well as a more subjective "feels like" difficulty description to each layer. I.E. Recommended ilevel 160 for wing 3, feels like a heroic dungeon."
Part of the problem is that they invited too many top end players, mythic raiders, and high M+ key runners into the beta, and not enough average players, at least that's my impression of the beta.
Of course their metrics for Torghast layer 8 are skewed, when the super elite 1% players that they invited are able to clear it with the template characters who started at 184. But just because Preach and his friends can do it doesn't mean the average player can, and it just seems like they put way too much emphasis in this beta on the content creators and top end players.
Ultimately though, it is a failure on their part. They should attach both a recommended ilevel as well as a more subjective "feels like" difficulty description to each layer. I.E. Recommended ilevel 160 for wing 3, feels like a heroic dungeon."
Prior to this week, most of what I saw ranged from neutral to very positive except with some classes that need some more love on their anima powers.
Then they buffed mob HP and damage and kinda fucked it up. Bad news when some people couldn't do the same level they were doing the week before.
+2
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Part of the problem is that they invited too many top end players, mythic raiders, and high M+ key runners into the beta, and not enough average players, at least that's my impression of the beta.
Of course their metrics for Torghast layer 8 are skewed, when the super elite 1% players that they invited are able to clear it with the template characters who started at 184. But just because Preach and his friends can do it doesn't mean the average player can, and it just seems like they put way too much emphasis in this beta on the content creators and top end players.
Ultimately though, it is a failure on their part. They should attach both a recommended ilevel as well as a more subjective "feels like" difficulty description to each layer. I.E. Recommended ilevel 160 for wing 3, feels like a heroic dungeon."
Prior to this week, most of what I saw ranged from neutral to very positive except with some classes that need some more love on their anima powers.
Then they buffed mob HP and damage and kinda fucked it up. Bad news when some people couldn't do the same level they were doing the week before.
It didn't help that they buffed the same week the Upper Reaches was one of the two wings.
Pvp is actually a really good/quick source of gear right now, especially if your class likes versatility. If you just wanna kit yourself out in 171ish pieces it’s probably a lot faster than heroics (the problem ofc is that you have to pvp.)
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Part of the problem is that they invited too many top end players, mythic raiders, and high M+ key runners into the beta, and not enough average players, at least that's my impression of the beta.
Of course their metrics for Torghast layer 8 are skewed, when the super elite 1% players that they invited are able to clear it with the template characters who started at 184. But just because Preach and his friends can do it doesn't mean the average player can, and it just seems like they put way too much emphasis in this beta on the content creators and top end players.
Ultimately though, it is a failure on their part. They should attach both a recommended ilevel as well as a more subjective "feels like" difficulty description to each layer. I.E. Recommended ilevel 160 for wing 3, feels like a heroic dungeon."
Prior to this week, most of what I saw ranged from neutral to very positive except with some classes that need some more love on their anima powers.
Then they buffed mob HP and damage and kinda fucked it up. Bad news when some people couldn't do the same level they were doing the week before.
It didn't help that they buffed the same weak the Upper Reaches was one of the two wings.
They also nerfed the shit out of the skeleton debuff. Last time it was upper reaches i died to it 3 times before catching on that those mobs must not be allowed into melee range.
Pvp is actually a really good/quick source of gear right now, especially if your class likes versatility. If you just wanna kit yourself out in 171ish pieces it’s probably a lot faster than heroics (the problem ofc is that you have to pvp.)
I haven't tried it yet this expansion, but my experience solo queuing as Horde in the last expansion was pretty grim. Long queues and felt like maybe 1 in 4 or 5 epic BGs was ever a win.
Pvp is actually a really good/quick source of gear right now, especially if your class likes versatility. If you just wanna kit yourself out in 171ish pieces it’s probably a lot faster than heroics (the problem ofc is that you have to pvp.)
I haven't tried it yet this expansion, but my experience solo queuing as Horde in the last expansion was pretty grim. Long queues and felt like maybe 1 in 4 or 5 epic BGs was ever a win.
Ya but you get honour for losing now/the quest are gain honour inside the bg so you can actually build gear while losing instead of just hating life
Pvp is actually a really good/quick source of gear right now, especially if your class likes versatility. If you just wanna kit yourself out in 171ish pieces it’s probably a lot faster than heroics (the problem ofc is that you have to pvp.)
I haven't tried it yet this expansion, but my experience solo queuing as Horde in the last expansion was pretty grim. Long queues and felt like maybe 1 in 4 or 5 epic BGs was ever a win.
Ya but you get honour for losing now/the quest are gain honour inside the bg so you can actually build gear while losing instead of just hating life
Yeah, the PVP feels a lot more fun this time around, and it's pretty forgiving even when your side gets crushed repeatedly. I'm on Daggerspine, and it feels quite Horde heavy (and they just seem to be better than us), but the losing honor in conjunction with outnumbered makes the time spent still worth it. I mean, you're not upgrading a full suit to iLVL 184 in a day, but it feels really very good.
It's also been less toxic than Mythic PUGs have been for me personally, which is...surprising.
Not that the "twist" wasn't obvious and something I saw coming far away, but it's kind of hilarious that Blizzard has spoilers re: Denathrius sitting right in the Blizzard App WoW Launcher screen.
The in game zone description might as well be "wow this guy is going to betray the fuck out of you"
0
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited December 2020
Even calling it a twist seems generous.
but in general the way that WoW organizes its plot is... confusing and bad. The level 60 dungeons are all tied to the Covenant stories you won't unlock until weeks after you hit 60, but you can access them long before you've seen any of the story content makes that all feel absurd. There are zero quest lines that lead you into or through the raid, so the only way to see the story for that is to happen to be with a group that does a full clear so you can see all the RP walks.
I'm pretty sure that they told us he was the first raid villain back at Blizzcon. It's not like it was a secret.
And heck, even the Shadowbringers motion comic video thingy for Revendreth tells you right away that he's abusing his power as leader to hoard all the anima.
+3
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
When you show up in Revendreth there's a rebellion on so it's a pretty easy assumption that he's a bad dude.
Pvp is actually a really good/quick source of gear right now, especially if your class likes versatility. If you just wanna kit yourself out in 171ish pieces it’s probably a lot faster than heroics (the problem ofc is that you have to pvp.)
I haven't tried it yet this expansion, but my experience solo queuing as Horde in the last expansion was pretty grim. Long queues and felt like maybe 1 in 4 or 5 epic BGs was ever a win.
That was my experience now. I did about 5 AVs and won one, 3 Wintergrasps and won 1. Wintergrasp was fun though, haven't played that in ages. Still got enough Honor to buy a two-hander and upgrade it to 171. The weekly quest helped ofc.
EDIT: Oh and apparently WQ gear DOES scale with your iLvl. I just had one for a 174 belt. Best so far before I got to 171 was 166ish even with the renown unlock.
Posts
If you don't recognize the individual voices in "this crowd" then I guess this would be your takeaway, but I argued that expecting perfect balance out of beta was ludicrous and am now arguing that expecting player behavior in Live to mimic player behavior in Beta is equally ludicrous.
And it looks like butts. The entire thing is just grey and the mobs are grey.
Like I'll do one floor and then go play a different game because I literally don't want to play WoW anymore.
And it's weird, I liked the first time I did it. I thought the anima powerup thing was interesting and changes the play style in interesting ways.
But make it a lot shorter with incremental rewards and add some damn colour.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
And yeah rewards there are non existent. Fail a run? Wasted 30 mins to an hour. You get Willy Wonka'd.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Oh, you’re right. Fracture was the uhhh ghost guy that would channel a fade DR or immune thing. Okay so upper reaches had one redeeming feature, other than that it was terrible!
Ah now I read there are nerfs. Well, at least it was an experience.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
The only thing you can't catch up on is Soul Ash for crafting legendaries (and maybe Souls for upgrading your Sanctum, but there's no player power tied to that, it's purely cosmetic/fun stuff). Everything else has catchup mechanics, with the big one being Renown since so much is tied to that.
Kind of whack.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
My understanding is that no one is having a particularly hard time getting a good one. Some people are holding out for the ideal one and thats taking longer. This was probably not necessary for them.
Blizzard used to be really good at assessing a genre landscape, finding a collection of mechanics scattered across multiple games, then blending those together into something beautiful. Certainly the original WoW did that by looking across all of the MMOs at the time and sampling the best features of each. Sometimes it seems like they don't want to do that anymore. Which is fair, I guess; sometimes originality is better. It just seems like Torghast is one case where they could've synthesized something really great from the genre at large. And again, I love Torghast, but it could still be a lot better.
edit: Ehh you know what, I take it back partially, they are still good at that in general. But it seems they didn't do it with Torghast. Curious.
Yup, same issue I had. I also got the dungeon quest for those zones after I outlevel the dungeon so had to wait until level 60 to complete them.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
Yea, that is where I'm at, can't do the dungeon quests. I kept getting the same dungeon for the area after bastion and I was curious why, hadn't realized that the dungeons were level based. I don't remember battle for azeroth being that way.
Random dungeon queue gave a lot of exp too. Kind of bummed.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Wait until you hit 60 and realize you still have to finish the main level up storyline (quests that have that shield icon around them) before you can access the endgame.
Keep in mind that you may have a legendary that increases the damage on a single target ability, another that makes your aoe be usable more often (shorter cooldown), another that gives you a passive autoattack boost when your target is in execute range, and another that makes it so when you interrupt a spell cast you get some shiny (a bunch of main stat or a big heal or whatever). Which one is the best? The answer depends on the context. Patchwerk? Cleave boss? Boss with nasty enrage at low hp? M+ on fortified week? Arena? Rated battleground and you're the flag carrier? Etc... Which is the argument for crafting all (or many) of them eventually. Especially since some are generic to all classes, some are generic to specific classes, and some to specific specs.
I think it’s quite a bit different when you’re building that out as a single sub-system in an MMO rather than a game on its own. Torghast is not “Blizzard’s go at a roguelike” it’s “WoW’s go at a roguelike.”
I'm ilevel 171 without running a single dungeon, so no you do not need to. Level 2 leggo and a crafted Darkmoon card trinket. Rest is rep and story rewards and some WQ gear. Oh and a pvp Honor weapon with 2 upgrades.
Of course their metrics for Torghast layer 8 are skewed, when the super elite 1% players that they invited are able to clear it with the template characters who started at 184. But just because Preach and his friends can do it doesn't mean the average player can, and it just seems like they put way too much emphasis in this beta on the content creators and top end players.
Ultimately though, it is a failure on their part. They should attach both a recommended ilevel as well as a more subjective "feels like" difficulty description to each layer. I.E. Recommended ilevel 160 for wing 3, feels like a heroic dungeon."
Prior to this week, most of what I saw ranged from neutral to very positive except with some classes that need some more love on their anima powers.
Then they buffed mob HP and damage and kinda fucked it up. Bad news when some people couldn't do the same level they were doing the week before.
It didn't help that they buffed the same week the Upper Reaches was one of the two wings.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
They also nerfed the shit out of the skeleton debuff. Last time it was upper reaches i died to it 3 times before catching on that those mobs must not be allowed into melee range.
Ya but you get honour for losing now/the quest are gain honour inside the bg so you can actually build gear while losing instead of just hating life
Yeah, the PVP feels a lot more fun this time around, and it's pretty forgiving even when your side gets crushed repeatedly. I'm on Daggerspine, and it feels quite Horde heavy (and they just seem to be better than us), but the losing honor in conjunction with outnumbered makes the time spent still worth it. I mean, you're not upgrading a full suit to iLVL 184 in a day, but it feels really very good.
It's also been less toxic than Mythic PUGs have been for me personally, which is...surprising.
but in general the way that WoW organizes its plot is... confusing and bad. The level 60 dungeons are all tied to the Covenant stories you won't unlock until weeks after you hit 60, but you can access them long before you've seen any of the story content makes that all feel absurd. There are zero quest lines that lead you into or through the raid, so the only way to see the story for that is to happen to be with a group that does a full clear so you can see all the RP walks.
And heck, even the Shadowbringers motion comic video thingy for Revendreth tells you right away that he's abusing his power as leader to hoard all the anima.
That was my experience now. I did about 5 AVs and won one, 3 Wintergrasps and won 1. Wintergrasp was fun though, haven't played that in ages. Still got enough Honor to buy a two-hander and upgrade it to 171. The weekly quest helped ofc.
EDIT: Oh and apparently WQ gear DOES scale with your iLvl. I just had one for a 174 belt. Best so far before I got to 171 was 166ish even with the renown unlock.