[WoW] Shadowlands: Launching October 2- uh...nevermind.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    The thing is, the Horde... are the bad guys?

    Orcs are despoilers of land they occupy, even prior to being corrupted by the demons. Trolls are constantly at war with everyone else and each other and using dangerous magics. The Forsaken were developing a plague to kill the living even when Sylvanas was "good." And Goblins are fucking capitalists.

    The Elves and Tauren are the only two that get a pass.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    The thing is, the Horde... are the bad guys?

    Orcs are despoilers of land they occupy, even prior to being corrupted by the demons. Trolls are constantly at war with everyone else and each other and using dangerous magics. The Forsaken were developing a plague to kill the living even when Sylvanas was "good." And Goblins are fucking capitalists.

    The Elves and Tauren are the only two that get a pass.

    The Blood Elves imprisoned a Naaru and fed on its energy in an attempt to replace the Sunwell. So basically only the Tauren get a pass.

    MSL59.jpg
    SmrtnikH3Knuckles
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    Orcs (At least the Thrall aligned ones) were on a redemption track from WC3 through WotLK.

    Trolls are/were victims of colonization. The Night Elves, High Elves, and Humans all got their start by carving out Troll territory for themselves. With a few exceptions, the Trolls encountered in game are trying to claw that territory back.

    Forsaken were always the token evil teammate for the Horde, not going to try to argue that, and yeah, Goblins are indeed capitalism run amok.

    H3Knuckles
  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    The thing is, the Horde... are the bad guys?

    Orcs are despoilers of land they occupy, even prior to being corrupted by the demons. Trolls are constantly at war with everyone else and each other and using dangerous magics. The Forsaken were developing a plague to kill the living even when Sylvanas was "good." And Goblins are fucking capitalists.

    The Elves and Tauren are the only two that get a pass.

    The Blood Elves imprisoned a Naaru and fed on its energy in an attempt to replace the Sunwell. So basically only the Tauren get a pass.
    To be fair, the Naaru forgave the Elves because everything they were doing was driven out of an addiction problem. Which the Naaru also cured. If the person / people you've wronged have forgiven you, there's some slack to be given.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
    PailryderFrem
  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    Nobody wrote: »
    Orcs (At least the Thrall aligned ones) were on a redemption track from WC3 through WotLK.

    Trolls are/were victims of colonization. The Night Elves, High Elves, and Humans all got their start by carving out Troll territory for themselves. With a few exceptions, the Trolls encountered in game are trying to claw that territory back.

    Forsaken were always the token evil teammate for the Horde, not going to try to argue that, and yeah, Goblins are indeed capitalism run amok.
    Even Saurfang calls that out though, because Thrall was on this "honor through combat!" thing. He may have chosen his battles more carefully, but frankly the concept of "honor" and the "glory" of combat were all lies concocted by Blackhand. He was even wearing Doomhammer's armor.

    Everything Thrall was trying to shape the Horde into was based on lies.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    I think one of my biggest gripes with WoW's story has always been that they don't even recap the shit that happens out of game. Like, at the minimum, a quest or nod to that stuff with NPCs you could talk to would be appropriate. I'm not going to buy your ancillary product if you can't convince me that'd be a good idea. Giving me a baseline to want to know more is how you would do that...not just brand recognition. I'm not an out of touch suburban mom doing Christmas shopping.

  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    Orcs (At least the Thrall aligned ones) were on a redemption track from WC3 through WotLK.

    Trolls are/were victims of colonization. The Night Elves, High Elves, and Humans all got their start by carving out Troll territory for themselves. With a few exceptions, the Trolls encountered in game are trying to claw that territory back.

    Forsaken were always the token evil teammate for the Horde, not going to try to argue that, and yeah, Goblins are indeed capitalism run amok.
    Even Saurfang calls that out though, because Thrall was on this "honor through combat!" thing. He may have chosen his battles more carefully, but frankly the concept of "honor" and the "glory" of combat were all lies concocted by Blackhand. He was even wearing Doomhammer's armor.

    Everything Thrall was trying to shape the Horde into was based on lies.

    Which was Blizzard justifying why they were beating the Horde with the villain bat again

    BahamutZERO
  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    It's the easiest step to perform too, RE: letting outside licensed works influence the setting. Having an NPC that goes "Hey so this happened while you weren't looking." I dunno how they fuck that up.

    Maybe it's one of those shitty business things where they legally aren't allowed. Because capitalism.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    alliance good/horde bad died years ago

    blizzard has now modified it to "actually, everyone is bad".... which is very contemporary....

    WC3 itself planted the seeds for the Horde redemption arc. Thrall's whole thing is he's tired of all this bullshit and wants to just go live in peace somewhere. Grom represents the original angry-orc themes.

    This thematic push/pull gets retread in WoW constantly based on who is warchief....

    At the beginning of WoW, the Trolls are unambiguously evil. I'm pretty sure the intro voice narration straight up calls them evil racists. I have no idea where they are at now in the story.

    3clipse
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Nobody wrote: »
    Part of the problem was Blizzard’s insistence on putting important story elements outside of the game.

    Goblins discover Azerite in-game.
    Ramifications of Azerite were in a novel.
    Sylvanas pushing for war was in a short story.
    War of Thorns starts in-game.

    how else will christie golden sell the shitty novels

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    NobodyBigity
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Nobody wrote: »
    Orcs (At least the Thrall aligned ones) were on a redemption track from WC3 through WotLK.

    Trolls are/were victims of colonization. The Night Elves, High Elves, and Humans all got their start by carving out Troll territory for themselves. With a few exceptions, the Trolls encountered in game are trying to claw that territory back.

    Forsaken were always the token evil teammate for the Horde, not going to try to argue that, and yeah, Goblins are indeed capitalism run amok.

    elves are essentially trolls so that's like being mad your descendants want to keep their land

    humans kind of got shit on because of the whole corruption of flesh thing, so they had to kind of make due and the trolls were the original aggressors that caused them to take more of their land (somewhere around arathor?)

    trolls kind of made their own bed

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Nobody wrote: »
    Orcs (At least the Thrall aligned ones) were on a redemption track from WC3 through WotLK.

    Trolls are/were victims of colonization. The Night Elves, High Elves, and Humans all got their start by carving out Troll territory for themselves. With a few exceptions, the Trolls encountered in game are trying to claw that territory back.

    Forsaken were always the token evil teammate for the Horde, not going to try to argue that, and yeah, Goblins are indeed capitalism run amok.

    Night elves are mutated trolls. High elves are mutated night elves.

    steam_sig.png
    BigityH3Knuckles
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    Orcs (At least the Thrall aligned ones) were on a redemption track from WC3 through WotLK.

    Trolls are/were victims of colonization. The Night Elves, High Elves, and Humans all got their start by carving out Troll territory for themselves. With a few exceptions, the Trolls encountered in game are trying to claw that territory back.

    Forsaken were always the token evil teammate for the Horde, not going to try to argue that, and yeah, Goblins are indeed capitalism run amok.

    elves are essentially trolls so that's like being mad your descendants want to keep their land

    humans kind of got shit on because of the whole corruption of flesh thing, so they had to kind of make due and the trolls were the original aggressors that caused them to take more of their land (somewhere around arathor?)

    trolls kind of made their own bed

    It’s more like a tribe breaking off, discovering nukes, and then using them to engage in ethnic cleansing.

    Humans decided to settle in territory owned by someone else and when the owners protested, attempted to wipe them out. I can think of a couple of real world analogues.

  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited September 17
    BFA shot itself in the foot by going rah rah rah blue v red advertising then IMMEDIATELY making the Horde the obvious aggressor and in the wrong. The Alliance didn’t even sack the Undercity, Sylvanas scorched earth the place.

    This reframes the war as yet another internal civil war with the Horde, while the Alliance yet again looks on from the sidelines going “Huh, hope they commit yet another war crime against us.”

    Sterica on
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    NobodyBahamutZEROCaedwyrH3KnucklesMaijinamuroDonnicton
  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    The thing is, the Horde... are the bad guys?

    Orcs are despoilers of land they occupy, even prior to being corrupted by the demons. Trolls are constantly at war with everyone else and each other and using dangerous magics. The Forsaken were developing a plague to kill the living even when Sylvanas was "good." And Goblins are fucking capitalists.

    The Elves and Tauren are the only two that get a pass.

    The Blood Elves imprisoned a Naaru and fed on its energy in an attempt to replace the Sunwell. So basically only the Tauren get a pass.
    To be fair, the Naaru forgave the Elves because everything they were doing was driven out of an addiction problem. Which the Naaru also cured. If the person / people you've wronged have forgiven you, there's some slack to be given.

    Oh no you don't!
    Our most wise and beloved prophet used what was left of the naaru to give you your well back which keeps your addiction in check!
    As far as I'm concerned the elves owe us one.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular


    God. Damn.

    KamarHenroidH3Knuckles
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »


    God. Damn.

    Why are elves always addicted to shit in Warcraft?

    HenroidH3Knuckles
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    That is just their thing. All of them have something. The high elves had the sunwell, the night elves had the moonwell, and the nightborne had the nightwell.

    I'm just waiting for the void elves to find/create the voidwell. Then all will be well with the world.
    I am not sorry for that pun.

    PailryderSaerisBasilBeyond NormalSmrtnikH3KnucklesFrem
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    So is 125 resistance the max on the cloak? I haven't done a Vision yet this week.

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    elves as a stand-in for social/cultural decadence transitioning into self-destructive hedonism has got to be some sort of named trope or something because I see it and things close to it all the time

    elves always be like "lul we're immortal and awesome and live in a utopia....... but what if we add DEMON MAGIC to this equation yes/no?????????"

    bowenSaerisH3KnucklesFremDonnicton
  • DacDac Registered User regular
    The intent of the writers has generally been since WC3 that the Horde is not supposed to be evil, and the Alliance is not supposed to be good.

    This has been somewhat difficult, though, because - you know - with their other hand they keep writing Horde = evil and Alliance = good. They're TRYING with Tyrande, but that's not going to go anywhere. She's not the leader of the Alliance or anything, no one cares if she goes evil, it's not like it reflects on the entire Alliance or anything. And if they heel-turn Anduin it will be the mother of all shitstorms.

    Ideally they, again, would just STOP with the faction war plotlines, but I'm guessing the Horde will be left perpetually holding the idiot ball until someone puts a dagger in Anduin's back or something.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    The vibe seems to be "french aristocracy right before people pulled out the guillotines". It 100% works as intended.

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    elves as a stand-in for social/cultural decadence transitioning into self-destructive hedonism has got to be some sort of named trope or something because I see it and things close to it all the time

    elves always be like "lul we're immortal and awesome and live in a utopia....... but what if we add DEMON MAGIC to this equation yes/no?????????"

    demon magic is pretty neat though

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    PailryderBasilDonnicton
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    Preach has been reviewing how the actual week to week gameplay of covenant goes, here's his Venthyr video. It has spoilers at the end, he warns you about them so you can skip that part:


    And yeah, can see where he comes from with the weekly event. Everything else is kinda the same between covenants gameplay wise, but the weekly event is different. And most of it is time vs. rewards. Venthyr weekly event, the party, takes like 4 hours to set up, and it only gives the base rewards, which are upgrades for your base Garrison Order Hall Covenant Sanctum and, of course, rep.

    Meanwhile, the Night Fae one, the garden, is much shorter and, besides the base rewards that all covenants give, it also gives profession mats. So, you can dislike the theme, the voice acting, the mog, etc, but if is much less of a pain in the ass to set up and gives extra income, guess what.

    TryCatcher on
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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    That is just their thing. All of them have something. The high elves had the sunwell, the night elves had the moonwell, and the nightborne had the nightwell.

    I'm just waiting for the void elves to find/create the voidwell. Then all will be well with the world.
    I am not sorry for that pun.
    Where do mansplaining elves get their water from?

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »


    God. Damn.
    I've got to know, is there an implication that Garrosh is down there at the start of this? He kinda belongs there.

    Also this video has me realizing that mayyyyyyybe my shaman doesn't belong there, from an RP standpoint.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited September 17
    Henroid wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »


    God. Damn.
    I've got to know, is there an implication that Garrosh is down there at the start of this? He kinda belongs there.

    Also this video has me realizing that mayyyyyyybe my shaman doesn't belong there, from an RP standpoint.

    "Implication"? Video is pretty explicit in that yes, he is. On the other thing:
    You join the revolution, don't worry.

    TryCatcher on
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Also, a lot of toxicity doesn't come from the actual top.

    Cutting Edge players, by the most part, do not play in PuGs. You see it on several Preach videos, when he sees the hate that "elitists" get and he's like: "What the hell are you talking about? We don't play with you at all". And he's serious, remember a dungeon video when he's like "What the hell is Raider.IO?", since people on solid guilds by the most part don't need Raider.IO. BUT, there's a considerable amount of chuds that think that just because they killed the first 3 bosses or whatever on Mythic of the current raid, bosses that are puggable, they are hot shit.

    I wanted to make this point, that most of the high level toxicity comes from people who actually are not part of the high level but perceive themselves as if they are.

    Then I kinda thought that was me being toxic downward, by gatekeeping what "high level" is, so thought maybe I won't make the point.

    Probably would have been fine.

    Nah, it isn't gatekeeping. That's a silly thing to suggest. People that push towards Mythic progression with the intent to actually be in the world first race proper are on an entirely different level than those that simply do Mythic. The problem is Blizzard cripples systems in the game, or punishes the vast majority of the players based on what these higher level raiders do. That thing with the M+ gear? It's dumb, and shouldn't exist. And it only exists because the devs want to try and knee-cap how those in the World First race does things. It was also the reason they forced personal loot onto the raids which was a bit of a knee-jerk decision, fueled either by the devs having a vendetta or a vocal minority of the playerbase spreading outright lies.

    The thing is no matter what they do, they'll still smash through the content. That's why those people play the game, it's how they get enjoyment out of it. Blizzard really needs to stop designing around it as if that's a problem.

    On the flip side there is definitely a big problem with some players trying to act like they need to be like those higher level raiders. I don't agree entirely with his point of view, he even called Preach a metaslave, but Kevin Jordan has some decent insights. But on the flipside he's also 10 years out of touch since he left the team during WotLK.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »


    God. Damn.
    I've got to know, is there an implication that Garrosh is down there at the start of this? He kinda belongs there.

    Also this video has me realizing that mayyyyyyybe my shaman doesn't belong there, from an RP standpoint.

    "Implication"? Video is pretty explicit in that yes, he is. On the other thing:
    You join the revolution, don't worry.
    Hmm. That's better, but still. As far as purpose goes she wouldn't really be one getting involved in anyone's redemption and such. Ironically, as hell bound as she is for being a killer of orcs, she actually does spirit-communication part of being a shaman. If anything she belongs in the angel place that ferries souls around. WHICH IS WEIRD.

    I'm trying desperately to not have her go to the necrolords.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    the idea of revendreth is that
    it's where people not-quite-despicable-enough to go straight to the maw get sent to be 'purified' of their sins; thus, they have garrosh in there and they're trying to beat the pride out of him

    but apparently, there's enough pride in him to sustain a nontrivial part of their society, so lucky for them

    NREqxl5.jpg
  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    the idea of revendreth is that
    it's where people not-quite-despicable-enough to go straight to the maw get sent to be 'purified' of their sins; thus, they have garrosh in there and they're trying to beat the pride out of him

    but apparently, there's enough pride in him to sustain a nontrivial part of their society, so lucky for them
    Yeah well he deserves it.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
    H3Knuckles
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    boy I can't wait for more expansions based around him

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
    Bigity
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i'm the bat guy (bluh)Registered User regular
    the problem with trying to look at warcraft races through a colonialism lens is that basically all of them are colonists - which is generally a problem with most fantasy fiction written in the western world, is we culturally have an inherently colonialist lens through which we look at expansion, settling, and relationship to the natural world that you can't easily just put aside

    liEt3nH.png
    H3Knuckles
  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    boy I can't wait for more expansions based around him
    No no we said Garrosh not Thrall.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    I stream at night - /henroidt on Twitch
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Humans are assholes.

    It's a pretty understandable assumption that given enough advancement, any humans would be assholes.

    Though it does dilute the idea of entirely different races/species of people if they... are just assholes, like humans.

    Trolls were there first though.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i'm the bat guy (bluh)Registered User regular
    depends on how you want to evaluate first, elementals and old god servant races like aqir and nerubians predate all other sentient life

    trolls only come about because of evolution from wells of eternity, at which point the titans had already seeded the planet with their assistant races like mechagnomes and iron vrykul

    liEt3nH.png
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    Arguably Elementals were the first. Aqir and the Titanforged attempted (successfully in the case of the Titanforged), to push the Elementals off Azeroth so they could claim it..

    To the best of my knowledge the Trolls never really fought the Titanforged for territory, but they do have some...history, like with the Goblins.

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    boy I can't wait for more expansions based around him
    No no we said Garrosh not Thrall.

    I would rather all of them be based around Thrall.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    So yesterday Windrunner/Darrowmere welcomed the realms Draka and Suramar
    I think those two realms were together as there was an argument in trade between two priests one from Darrowmere the other Suramar with people from Draka backing them up
    It's odd to see more horde now from realms you know but my brother said it was the end of the CRZ
    So we would not see the other weird thing of druids {groups of 3 to 20!} all moonkin aoe the shit of things and making the dynamic spawns work overtime for skins?

  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    Humans are assholes.

    It's a pretty understandable assumption that given enough advancement, any humans would be assholes.

    Though it does dilute the idea of entirely different races/species of people if they... are just assholes, like humans.

    Trolls were there first though.
    A few weeks ago when I started my push to get my alts to 120, I got the first of them to WOD. When opening the portal at the garrison, Baros Alexston comes walking through and he says, "Let's take this world for the Alliance!" Not "let's stop the Iron Horde," not "let's help the Draenei and other denizens." Literally "TIME TO IMPERIALIZE, BOYS."

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
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