[Overwatch] Now with more heroes.

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  • McMoogleMcMoogle Registered User regular
    That fade change seems like BS but i guess we'll see. Seems like it'd be a hard counter for Mei.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    Hmm just thought about this...if this cleanses hack Lucio/Miora hyperdive might be viable again.

    Moira being able to save Hammond/Winston/D.Va would be big.

    Dragkonias on
  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    (Forgive the repost but patch notes probably shouldn't be literally BOTP)

    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/overwatch-retail-patch-notes-%E2%80%93-july-23-2020/529601/1
    Genji
    Shuriken
    • (General) Damage decreased from 30 to 28
    • (Secondary Fire) Recovery increased from 0.65 to 0.75

    Moira
    Biotic Grasp
    Attach angle reduced by 37%

    Biotic Orb (Damage Orb Only)
    • Damage radius reduced from 4 meters to 3 meters
    • Projectile slow amount after a target is found increased from -72.5% to -80%
    • Damage-per-second now scales based on how close the target(s) are to the Biotic Orb
    • Between 0 – 1 meter: It will deal 150 damage per second
    • Between 1 meter – 3 meters : Scales linearly down from 150 to 25 damage per second
    • Note: The normal damage orb on live is always 50 damage per second
    • The total potential damage the Biotic Orb can deal is unchanged: 200 damage total

    Fade
    • Now phases out all allies within 6 meters (and self) for 1 second after exiting Fade
    • Phasing makes a hero immune to all damage and effects. It will work exactly like Reaper’s Wraith Form or Moira’s own Fade effect in this regard

  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    I think with the right tuning the Fade change is really solid. The timing of it is definitely awkward. Maybe let Moira recast Fade while she's Fading to activate the group cleanse but also double the cooldown or something?

  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    Kasyn wrote: »
    I think with the right tuning the Fade change is really solid. The timing of it is definitely awkward. Maybe let Moira recast Fade while she's Fading to activate the group cleanse but also double the cooldown or something?

    If she could cancel Fade it'd be a lot better but also a lot more powerful.

    Kana
  • TexiKenTexiKen Vitamin B! And C! Registered User regular
    The Genji changes won't do much because the spread on the alt fire is the real broken killer. All this change will do is mean he will likely use dash to finish you off to get the kill/reset as opposed to not needing to dash 75% of the time for the past month. At least add a 15% ult charge increase.

    The fade change sounds good on paper, but they're only thinking about it as a defense cleanse, when in reality it's going to be a hard dive push and a sloppy band aid to fix the real problems not with ultimates but mainly with Ashe's dynamite, Ana's nade and to get past shields. Much like Mercy's invincibility frames on her ult triggering the mass rez moth meta, it's that one second invincibility for Moira that breaks it. If it was a Moira sacrifice (barring good teamwork) to save a team that at least has the risk for a team to be down a healer. Hell, just making orb automatically disappear and enter a cooldown when fade starts at least will kill the burst healing she will likely use to keep a deathball going.

    Chance
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    does the orb really say that its doing 150 damage in 1 second, doesn't that kill like...almost all dps pretty fast?
    Between 0 – 1 meter: It will deal 150 damage per second

  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    does the orb really say that its doing 150 damage in 1 second, doesn't that kill like...almost all dps pretty fast?
    Between 0 – 1 meter: It will deal 150 damage per second

    Basically yeah the closer it is the more damage it does now instead of the flat 50.

    It Basically encourages actually aiming it.

  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    Well yeah but they have to more or less be in contact with the orb for it to sustain that much damage for a full second. 1 meter is ... not very far.

    For perspective, most quick melee attacks reach 2.5m.

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I don't know if this is going to make it as-is, Moira can literally delete any 200hp character while invincible. She shouldn't get the invuln herself, it's meant for team utility but it incentivizes selfish usage.

  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    Yeah the whole "fade team member on exit" is interesting and makes using it for counter play a lot more challenging.

    Plus you have to be near your ally on exit, so if you're not picking your fades intelligently you're liable just to kill yourself instead.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    the queue for healer in exper is 10 minutes haha

  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    Zek wrote: »
    I don't know if this is going to make it as-is, Moira can literally delete any 200hp character while invincible.

    The conditions under which this is true are considerably more limited than you think. Most characters move 5.5 m/s. Don't stand around like a potato while the orb passes directly through you and you'll be fine.
    She shouldn't get the invuln herself, it's meant for team utility but it incentivizes selfish usage.

    Except...not really? You're denying your team a potentially very strong utility if you use it selfishly. There's an actual choice now in the cooldown management, it's pretty cool in principle, though it probably needs to get retuned somehow. I don't agree at all that it incentivizes selfish usage.

    Kasyn on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    I mean really all it does is give Moira herself an extra second of invul.

    Her DPS on her primary isn't that great, and its a bit harder to aim now, so it doesn't make her that much better of a dueler and it'll probably be use to run away which if you were using fade selfishly you were doing anyway.

    Dragkonias on
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    I mean really all it does is give Moira herself an extra second of invul.

    Her DPS on her primary isn't that great, and its a bit harder to aim now, so it doesn't make her that much better of a dueler and it'll probably be use to run away which if you were using fade selfishly you were doing anyway.

    I mean, let's say that was literally all it did. There was no party buff. People would think Blizzard was insane. I'm taking this as a sign that people understand how badly a cleanse is needed and are desperate for it. People already hated this when it was on Mercy's res, so much that it really seemed to be the tipping point. On an already slippery healer with shitloads of baseline self-sustain, on a six second CD? PLUS the party buffs.

    Just swap Moira's LMB and RMB. Beam heals, spray damages. Can't go all DPS if you're not healing. Lessen the AoE healing issues. Bam.

    ArcTangent on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited July 23
    ...invul on Mercy's res was strong because it was attached to a strong ability.

    I'm not saying there won't be uses for it but it's far more useful when used as a team ability.

    Dragkonias on
    KasynBloodySloth
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    edited July 23
    I don't know how these Moira changes are going to shake out, but I'm glad to see them finally trying some big changes with her. Conceptually I really like the idea behind the new Fade, and hopefully if it's stronger than they expected (probably) they just tweak numbers instead of reverting to her old version. I'm not sure I love that she gets another second of invul after coming out of it, but my gut feeling is that in practice it won't be as big of a deal as it may sound.

    I also agree that she should be able to cancel Fade whenever she wants because I think every non-ult ability like that should have player control, but with it as it is now people would just start instantly cast and uncast for the cleanse effect. Maybe if there were a universal cooldown no matter how long it was actually up for?

    Either way, I'm actually excited to see the results.

    Houk the Namebringer on
    Kasyn
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    okay watching Seagull's VOD now

    so yeah I kind of love the actual ability. double the cooldown, cut the range in half, maybe remove the post-Fade self-invul effect, and you've got a really cool, unique skill that feels good to pull off in a clutch moment

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Kasyn wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    I don't know if this is going to make it as-is, Moira can literally delete any 200hp character while invincible.

    The conditions under which this is true are considerably more limited than you think. Most characters move 5.5 m/s. Don't stand around like a potato while the orb passes directly through you and you'll be fine.
    She shouldn't get the invuln herself, it's meant for team utility but it incentivizes selfish usage.

    Except...not really? You're denying your team a potentially very strong utility if you use it selfishly. There's an actual choice now in the cooldown management, it's pretty cool in principle, though it probably needs to get retuned somehow. I don't agree at all that it incentivizes selfish usage.

    I don't mean that selfish usage is correct, I mean that it's very tempting. Players don't need any more encouragement to be a DPS Moira.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Vitamin B! And C! Registered User regular
    I'd rather Fade be reworked so that Moira has to cleanse people by passing through them. No invulnerability for Moira after Fade, but the teammates she passes through get cleanse and 1.5 seconds invulnerable. This means you can pass through a few to save them from a DvA bomb or Sigma, but the radius is lost and Moira is still a prime target after Fade.

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited July 28
    Experiment is ending - Genji's changes going live, Moira is back to the drawing board.

    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/experimental-mode-recap-–-july-27/531690/1
    Hey everyone!

    Thanks for the feedback over the past few days about our most recent Experimental mode. If you haven’t seen the tested changes, patch notes can be found HERE. This experiment is currently scheduled to end tomorrow (Tuesday, July 28th) at 11:00 AM PDT, but we wanted to provide some insight into our next steps before then.

    GENJI:

    Genji’s recent buffs have increased his hero pick rate considerably. We’re excited to see the hero getting more playtime, but some of the changes pushed his power-level a bit too far. The tested changes to Shuriken are aimed at re-balancing of his burst potential. We believe these changes are the right direction for Genji and we’ll be patching these changes into live game modes soon.

    MOIRA:

    The team has been iterating on Moira’s kit over the past couple months and this is the second Experimental mode focused on these potential changes. We have a few main goals for Moira’s gameplay:

    We want Moira to be fun to play.
    We want Moira to have the opportunity make big game-impacting plays.
    We want Moira’s gameplay to feel skillful and dynamic.

    The current experiment is a glimpse into just one of the various iterations the team has been exploring to achieve these goals. For this test, it was important for the team to get feedback on the Fade ability test specifically – we wanted it to get used and feel powerful. Sometimes during earlier phases of development it’s more helpful to test abilities at their extremes and fine-tune with balancing after. It’s likely that if we wanted to pursue the Fade ability change further we would adjust the ability’s cooldown or its interaction with other hero ultimate abilities.

    That being said, we’re not currently planning to move forward with the Moira changes being tested within the Experimental mode. The team has already been working on a few other tests aimed towards the goals listed above – we have more we’d like to try with her Damage Orb and Fade abilities. We’ll be testing internally over the next few weeks and expect to have another Experimental mode with Moira changes in the future.

    We have more experiments coming soon. Game development is an iterative process and your feedback makes a difference. Thank you for your passion and being part of our awesome community.

    Cheers!

    Zek on
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    All that sounds pretty good. Still a fan of just swapping LMB/RMB though!

  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    sigh

    not that her changes should have just gone live as is, but "over the next few weeks" and "in the future" tells me we're in for another drought of no major changes to her (or probably any other characters) and they continue to make even minor changes at a snail's pace

    i still love this game at its core but their refusal to make regular, timely balance tweaks is so frustrating

    Kasyn
  • TexiKenTexiKen Vitamin B! And C! Registered User regular
    edited July 28
    Genji still needs to be dialed back, but they're just going to move on to the next thing to break to draw attention away from him. Like just break Bastion because lol fuck you.

    I was thinking about Moira a bit more, and what if her orb isn't a random scatter arrow type thing, but a big glob that pops out from her back tank in either heal or damage and gets used up by the heals or damage it delivers. It can't be used while in fade, but in response you can make fade a second less on cooldown so she can taxi some heals to her team while also putting herself out to be fought. You keep her primary with the same damage she has now and even the same angle reduction that the experiment had, keep the ult beam, and maybe just make her hitbox 10% bigger.

    edit: or, the simplest best fix, orb bounces off shields. boom. done. next.

    TexiKen on
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I don't think any two people can even agree what the problem with Moira actually is.

  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    edited July 28
    Because player perception of Moira is extraordinarily dependent on player skill. She draws ire across the board, but for entirely different reasons. Lower SR players think she's way too good and unkillable, higher SR players tend to have issue with the skill input / performance output not lining up.

    The other thing is - a lot of people have absolutely no clue what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to her. A group I'm in were discussing the experimental changes, and someone there was under the impression that Fade lasted "3-4 seconds" for the Moira player right now. Another believed that the Moira could use all of her normal skills during Fade already.

    That's what's a little disappointing about all of this. Those players are vocal, and contribute to the community's reaction to anything that can be vaguely construed as a buff for her.

    Kasyn on
    KanamiscellaneousinsanityFencingsax
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    to me, the two most important things for any hero are 1) is this character fun/exciting to play as, and 2) is this character especially unfun to play against? if you can do the first and avoid the second, everything else is just tweaking numbers.

    i don't think moira is especially unfun to play against. she's slippery but it's just an escape so whatever, and her orb/right-click damage can be annoying but it's not a huge deal. her big problem is she's not all that fun to play as. she doesn't have much in the way of big playmaking ability, neither her healing nor damage primaries feels especially rewarding, her orb is fire-and-forget, and even her ult is just 'sit there and point in the general direction of the teamfight until someone dies, maybe'. the main reason people don't like playing against her is that she gets results despite not needing especially skillful execution, not that she's especially annoying or overpowered.

    like even within just supports, every other support has something that lets them have little pop-off moments which let them feel cool, talented, impactful, whatever. Zen can land a sweet volley and save their team with a clutch transcendence, Lucio can land a boop that leads to an environmental double kill and drop the beat at the perfect moment, Bap can rattle off a couple quick headshots and save his team with immortality, Ana can sleep a charging Rein then anti the entire enemy team, even Brig can land a satisfying bash-whipshot combo and Mercy can ult and pistol down some fools. All Moira can do is slowly heal you with her left-click or orb, slowly kill you with her right-click or orb, slowly heal/kill you with her ult, and fade to reposition. She can't do anything that will make you go 'holy shit, that was awesome!'

    if her kit was more active and skill-dependent that would make her way more fun to play as, and most complaints about being unfun to play against would disappear because if it took some amount of skill to get that kill/avoid that death then players are generally much more forgiving. that's what they're trying to address by giving her fade more utility, and hopefully that's the kind of thing they'll keep around if/when they actually roll out a proper change to live.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Vitamin B! And C! Registered User regular
    Lololol the patch that was put up today was already removed because it was buggy, supposedly Bridget's health packs breaks your "hold mouse button" actions on heroes like Widow/Ana and Wrecking Ball's grapple, so enjoy broken Genji for at least another day or two. Probably Monday given their update schedule a double dab.

  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    sigh

    not that her changes should have just gone live as is, but "over the next few weeks" and "in the future" tells me we're in for another drought of no major changes to her (or probably any other characters) and they continue to make even minor changes at a snail's pace

    i still love this game at its core but their refusal to make regular, timely balance tweaks is so frustrating

    I feel like most of the development is going towards OW2 which is why things are so whatever.

    I've been playing less myself cause of the slow updates and not liking the current meta(not even Genji but Brig)

    I do hope OW2 shakes things up a lot.

  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    sigh

    not that her changes should have just gone live as is, but "over the next few weeks" and "in the future" tells me we're in for another drought of no major changes to her (or probably any other characters) and they continue to make even minor changes at a snail's pace

    i still love this game at its core but their refusal to make regular, timely balance tweaks is so frustrating

    I feel like most of the development is going towards OW2 which is why things are so whatever.

    I've been playing less myself cause of the slow updates and not liking the current meta(not even Genji but Brig)

    I do hope OW2 shakes things up a lot.

    I'd like to think that's the case, but it's been like this basically since day one. There have definitely been fewer huge patches with a ton of changes, which is understandable, but just consistent little tweaks have always been lacking.

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    to me, the two most important things for any hero are 1) is this character fun/exciting to play as, and 2) is this character especially unfun to play against? if you can do the first and avoid the second, everything else is just tweaking numbers.

    i don't think moira is especially unfun to play against. she's slippery but it's just an escape so whatever, and her orb/right-click damage can be annoying but it's not a huge deal. her big problem is she's not all that fun to play as. she doesn't have much in the way of big playmaking ability, neither her healing nor damage primaries feels especially rewarding, her orb is fire-and-forget, and even her ult is just 'sit there and point in the general direction of the teamfight until someone dies, maybe'. the main reason people don't like playing against her is that she gets results despite not needing especially skillful execution, not that she's especially annoying or overpowered.

    like even within just supports, every other support has something that lets them have little pop-off moments which let them feel cool, talented, impactful, whatever. Zen can land a sweet volley and save their team with a clutch transcendence, Lucio can land a boop that leads to an environmental double kill and drop the beat at the perfect moment, Bap can rattle off a couple quick headshots and save his team with immortality, Ana can sleep a charging Rein then anti the entire enemy team, even Brig can land a satisfying bash-whipshot combo and Mercy can ult and pistol down some fools. All Moira can do is slowly heal you with her left-click or orb, slowly kill you with her right-click or orb, slowly heal/kill you with her ult, and fade to reposition. She can't do anything that will make you go 'holy shit, that was awesome!'

    if her kit was more active and skill-dependent that would make her way more fun to play as, and most complaints about being unfun to play against would disappear because if it took some amount of skill to get that kill/avoid that death then players are generally much more forgiving. that's what they're trying to address by giving her fade more utility, and hopefully that's the kind of thing they'll keep around if/when they actually roll out a proper change to live.

    I default to Moira a lot when I don't trust my other healer, or if the team comp is looking like a complete clusterfuck and I'm going to have to either fend for myself or be able to swap back and forth between diving in to secure a kill and healing on the fly, which is not something any other healer does particularly well. Her beam can definitely shred since it's unblockable, especially with some kind of boost helping it. It's rare that I feel like I'm unable to get value out of her.

  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    edited July 28
    sure you can get value out of her, that's not really the point i'm getting at. my point is that for a lot of people, getting that value from her isn't all that fun or engaging. if she's fun for you, that's totally legit and i'm not gonna try to convince you otherwise. but as someone who plays a lot of support, if i go Moira it's never because i think she's going to be fun to play in a given circumstance. she might be effective but she also feels pretty dull for a lot of folks, i think.

    Houk the Namebringer on
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I think she's fun, and I don't get the sense that the people who pick her are doing it begrudgingly. I don't think her redesign needs to address that. It seems like the issues they wanted to address with these last changes were skill curve and team utility.

    KasynBloodySlothLitanymiscellaneousinsanityjammu
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited July 29
    Moira is okay to play but she is simple in a way that doesn't really feel rewarding like the other supports.

    Her flowchart is pretty simple.

    Spray team, use heal orb when needed/damage if not needed, fade when cornered.

    You can autopilot her and still be effective in a way you can't with other supports.

    Also the way you play her doesn't change much from rank to rank. Sure there are more DPS Moiras at low ranks but that's not the correct way to use her.

    Dragkonias on
    BionicPenguinKanaTexiKenBRIAN BLESSED
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited July 29
    Being efficient is fun.

    Well, maybe not FUN fun, but being inefficient is definitely NOT FUN.

    She's very forgiving in a way most supports aren't, although I do think it'd be much healthier for the game if her CDs were raised quite a bit, even if that means that their overall power needs to be raised. A well thrown ball has an effective CD of like 3 seconds. And there's almost no point calling out that fade's down because by the time you do, it's probably back up again. A lot of characters have that issue though where abilities are just sort of mindlessly used at every opportunity where you'll get even microcosmic value out of them because they're on such short CDs and are relatively low impact.

    ArcTangent on
  • TexiKenTexiKen Vitamin B! And C! Registered User regular
    There is a reddit AMA by the Overwatch team tomorrow at 1:30pm PST. I don't really expect anything of value like real answers about balance or bias, but you never know.

  • RiokennRiokenn Registered User regular
    Did they say when the summer event is suppose to go live?

  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Nope. We usually find out a few days before an event goes live.

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  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited July 30
    New 2CP mode going to Experimental that they've already said they consider a failure and aren't planning to bring live.

    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/upcoming-experimental-mode-–-assault-game-mode/532354

    TL;DR
    Basically, round ends after point A is capped (e: or time expires) and teams switch sides. If both cap point A, repeat starting from B. Then back to A. Continue like this until one team caps and one team fails. Respawn stuff and round times were adjusted to compensate.

    'Solved' the 2CP snowballing problem, but individual rounds were often super short and disjointed with tons of interruptions, and ultimate economy was all the way fucked.

    ArcTangent on
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    edited July 30
    wow that sounds absolutely horrid

    just what i want in 2cp, more resets and interruptions to draw it out even longer

    Houk the Namebringer on
    FencingsaxBloodySloth
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