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[Overwatch] Overwatch 2 is Live!

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    The Mei change sounds like they just split the difference between her OW1 and Launch OW2 ability

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    McMoogleMcMoogle Registered User regular
    Removing Mei's freeze will go down as mankind's gravest sin.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    I feel like the OW devs did the age old mistake of making no one happy by trying to make everyone happy.

    What you have to realize is that competitive games make people salty by default. And usually a game is much more balanced when people are upset about a number of things rather than any one thing.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    The Mei change sounds like they just split the difference between her OW1 and Launch OW2 ability

    Thus ensuring absolutely nobody is happy

    Lol I should have read ahead

    joshofalltrades on
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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Personally I always felt the hate for OW1 Mei Freeze was overblown.

    It was one of those abilities that simply punished you for playing badly. I don't mind those abilities but I know most people have trouble admitting that maybe they are the reason they're losing.

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    who hates the mei freeze the most? genjis, genjis do. i think we figured out why it was changed.

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    BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Mei's freeze is CC with no cooldown. How is that fun for anyone but the Mei?

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    -CC is coming back, they just can't admit it due to their hubris but it is, they're "softening their approach." Mei's primary will have a cumulative long slow effect but not complete freeze, and McCree's magnetic grenade will be a damage/slow/halt

    So Cass is basically getting his flashbang back (which I like) while keeping the terribleness of the magnetic grenade? Fantastic.

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    ChanceChance Registered User regular
    LostNinja wrote: »
    TexiKen wrote: »
    -CC is coming back, they just can't admit it due to their hubris but it is, they're "softening their approach." Mei's primary will have a cumulative long slow effect but not complete freeze, and McCree's magnetic grenade will be a damage/slow/halt

    So Cass is basically getting his flashbang back (which I like) while keeping the terribleness of the magnetic grenade? Fantastic.
    Chance wrote: »
    OW2: It's Fucked.


    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
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    ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    "Let's nerf all snipers so they're less threatening to all heroes."

    "Except Tracer."

    "Obviously - fuck Tracer. Also, let's buff Mei so she's stronger against movement heroes."

    "'Cause fuck Tracer."

    "Correct. Now let's let Cassidy keep his noskill homing grenade that can't miss and travels around corners to hit its target after they move, and also make it lock out all of a target's movement abilities."

    "But that'll have no impact on most of the tanks, a few of the more powerful supports and like half the DPS roster."

    "But...?"

    "But it fucks Tracer. I get it."

    "We need to really screw with them, though. How do we force them to still play while we continue to abuse our cover hero so maliciously?"

    "Hmm." 🤔

    "Hmmmmm." 🤔

    "Hmmmmmmmmmmmm." 🤔

    Chance on
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
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    BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Tracer has probably been the most consistently well tuned hero in the history of Overwatch. I'm sure she'll be fine.

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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    If you give Tracer the Guts nose scar you can also give her his arm crossbows.

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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    Tracer will be fine, I'm guessing you can still recall out of it which is more than one could say about Flashbang.

    Overall I still really like OW2 and I'm frustrated that they can't shake off this malaise the community is feeling. I don't think there is any quick fix for it, it's going to take years of steady work for people to forgive how badly the development cycle was fucked up during the content freeze. I think they'll get there provided they don't shift resources away from the game, which I don't think they can afford to do.

    If I were them I would be going for crowd pleasers at this point. 6v6 needs to come back. IMO just change Open Queue to a 6v6 mode, because 5v5 was never designed for that. Add a competitive solo queue mode with strict matchmaking.

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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    Literally patch and update the game regularly. It's been five weeks since the last patch, when they had no reason not to do so, especially just as simple good will for being fucking lying assholes about PVE for 7 months. This two patches a season is stupid, and delaying any patch to save the playerbase with the excuse of the irrelevant OWL is even stupider. Listening to Aaron deliver another update with that slightly tired, dismissive tone he does where he's acting like he's disappointed in us as opposed to the other way around isn't going to make things better.

    At this point Blizzard is acting just like a drug addict who cannot and will not change their ways even though they say they'll fix it, they swear, next week, it'll all be ok, please Sharon I just want to see the kids again.

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    Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Personally I always felt the hate for OW1 Mei Freeze was overblown.

    It was one of those abilities that simply punished you for playing badly. I don't mind those abilities but I know most people have trouble admitting that maybe they are the reason they're losing.

    Freeze just feels bad, plain and simple. It's a bad ability that feels bad and "it only affects you if she gets close" doesn't excuse it in a game that emphasizes flanking and close encounters in general. And I say this as someone who absolutely loved old Mei, adored freezing folks and giving them an icicle to the dome. A full freeze as a primary ability is just straight up bad for the game.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Meh, I say. The game has always emphasized picks and counter-picks. Trying to balance around any team comp or solo pick being viable is madness that will make nobody happy.

    It isn’t as though Mei was a meta pick back in OW1. She did a very specific thing and if you were a Mei one trick you probably lost a lot of matches once you hit the ranks where people would switch off Tracer and pop your head off with Widow or Hanzo.

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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    There's a patch every few weeks, it's as fast as it's ever been if not faster. It doesn't seem that crazy to me for the latter half of the season not to have balance changes. The ones they felt were urgent were done in the first two patches which were a couple weeks apart.

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    BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Meh, I say. The game has always emphasized picks and counter-picks. Trying to balance around any team comp or solo pick being viable is madness that will make nobody happy.

    It isn’t as though Mei was a meta pick back in OW1. She did a very specific thing and if you were a Mei one trick you probably lost a lot of matches once you hit the ranks where people would switch off Tracer and pop your head off with Widow or Hanzo.

    It isn't about Mei being overpowered or not. She's very rarely been OP in the past. It's about whether she's fun to play against. Getting frozen sucks. It feels much worse when you're frozen multiple times in a row because a Mei player wants to mess with you.

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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    I always hated Mei having 250HP, that gave her extra bully/nuisance when coupled with self heal. This might be a hot take but no DPS should be above 200HP. They do the damage, but they also need to have limits.

    Mei as a tank worked fantastically for that April Fool's experiment they did, she can much more handle being a tank than what this loser Doomfist has become, your team gets a Doom tank you've lost.

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    LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Meh, I say. The game has always emphasized picks and counter-picks. Trying to balance around any team comp or solo pick being viable is madness that will make nobody happy.

    It isn’t as though Mei was a meta pick back in OW1. She did a very specific thing and if you were a Mei one trick you probably lost a lot of matches once you hit the ranks where people would switch off Tracer and pop your head off with Widow or Hanzo.

    It isn't about Mei being overpowered or not. She's very rarely been OP in the past. It's about whether she's fun to play against. Getting frozen sucks. It feels much worse when you're frozen multiple times in a row because a Mei player wants to mess with you.

    See also: Sombra invisibility being mostly uninterrupted when hacking.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Mei's freeze is CC with no cooldown. How is that fun for anyone but the Mei?

    I mean most abilities that kill you usually aren't fun for the people who are getting killed.

    Also...eh I think you can't get too caught up on what people find "fun" to play against in a competitive game cause it's pretty subjective and greatly influenced by salt.

    Dragkonias on
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    YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    Tracer is the second best dps in the game behind pre-patch Widow. Honestly we probably need some way to keep her down.

    Steam - BNet: Yilias #1224 - Riot: Yilias #moc
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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    But in general I can tell that the Overwatch team is fairly new to competitive game balance cause they do change stuff based on what people complain about.

    And eventually all that leads to is having a game that is fairly bland and homogeneous(which is what OW2's problem is rn I would say).

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    For DPS and supports, whatever. Tanks are where the real issue was, because only like, maybe Winston had an escape that actually escapes her, and she just walks through barriers. Even those like Sigma or Orisa who could barrier dance, there was enough buffer that you still got frozen. So your choice was... Roadhog and get the instant kill, or fuck off to parts unknown any time she got close. And there was nowhere near enough recovery time after being frozen to do anything either, so you ended up chain-stunned, especially when all the other CC got stacked onto you.

    Really, no hard CC should ever have zero CD.

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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    The real answer to Mei having a freeze attack is not being out of position and on your own. She ate flankers for breakfast. If you’re with your team and a Mei walks right up trying to freeze your DPS it’s not going to work. Is it unfun to be caught out of position and the enemy punishing you for that? Maybe? But it isn’t as though she took your ability to have fun completely out of your hands.

    Again, she wasn’t exactly what I would call meta even when she was at her strongest. I’ve had my share of “get frozen, icicle between the eyes” deaths and every time it happened it was because I made a mistake and she capitalized on it.

    As for only Winston having an out among tanks that’s just plain untrue. D.Va could boost on out, Rein had charge, Zarya had bubble, Doomfist had several movement abilities, etc.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Yeah I just don't think a short range beam, attached to a character with low mobility that could be broken by LoS and needed time and a followup was that oppressive.

    Like I dunno at some point maybe you need to look inward.

    Dragkonias on
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    Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    "she took your ability to have fun completely out of your hands" is exactly how a lot of folks feel about her though, is the thing

    again, it's not that she's OP or has no counterplay or anything, you're 100% right about all of that. but all of those same things apply to Reaper, for example, and I'm not mad when I die to a Reaper because of exactly that - I got too close, I got shot, I died, fine. obviously nobody likes dying to anyone in a competitive game, but being slowed-to-frozen is just plain unfun for lots of folks whether you die to it or not. how effective it is or isn't at winning the game and what methods there are to counteract it isn't really relevant to the in-the-moment experience

    personally I think where they have her now is a perfectly fine compromise, let her slow folks all day, and let her ult freeze because it's earned and at least it only happens every couple of minutes

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    "she took your ability to have fun completely out of your hands" is exactly how a lot of folks feel about her though, is the thing

    again, it's not that she's OP or has no counterplay or anything, you're 100% right about all of that. but all of those same things apply to Reaper, for example, and I'm not mad when I die to a Reaper because of exactly that - I got too close, I got shot, I died, fine. obviously nobody likes dying to anyone in a competitive game, but being slowed-to-frozen is just plain unfun for lots of folks whether you die to it or not. how effective it is or isn't at winning the game and what methods there are to counteract it isn't really relevant to the in-the-moment experience

    personally I think where they have her now is a perfectly fine compromise, let her slow folks all day, and let her ult freeze because it's earned and at least it only happens every couple of minutes

    I'm confused cause you're basically saying what I said but saying it in a way that sounds like it runs counter somehow.

    The ability wasn't overpowered and it had counterplay, so there was no point to nerf it. I mean "rework" it.

    There is always a vocal group of gamers complaining about dying to things they don't like. Doesn't mean they're right.

    Dragkonias on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Honestly I prefer being slowed to frozen. Gives me time to activate my “oh shit” ability to get away. Whereas running into a Reaper in a tight corridor is just death sometimes.

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Did you forget how fast the freeze was? And that Doom wasn't a tank? It was 30 ticks. Or 1.5 seconds. Just the startup for Rein's charge alone is like half that, and you're not getting enough distance even once the charge began in that time to escape even if you're already pointed in the right direction. Same with DVa, and both are even assuming there's no wall. Zarya only had one personal bubble that was, at most a 2 second stall. That's the best you could do vs her as a tank if she was in the same zipcode. Momentarily stall her and then be stunlocked.

    And yeah, she did take the ability to have fun completely out of your hands vsing her as a tank. Because, again, the answer for almost all of them was to run away before she got in range. She had plenty of counters, pretty hard counters at that, but none of them were available to tanks. It is severely anti-fun to not have agency and your only option to be "hopes and prayers that somebody else deals with it," which I have been saying since like 2017.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    All I'm gonna say is folks keep saying they were just giving people what they wanted and well OW's year over year numbers don't really give credence to that.

    And like I'm saying there is always gonna be something "unfun" in a competitive game. It can be Mei's freeze, Roadhog's hook, Widow's gun, Doomfist's punch, Sombra's invisible, Genji's mobility, etc, etc.

    And that is why balancing around whatever people are complaining about at the moment is dangerous. Cause you actually risk making more people unhappy by trying to make them happy.

    Dragkonias on
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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    headshot insta kills are unfun and we should remove snipers for the game. its not about positioning, those snipers can just be anywhere and shoot me in the head.
    boops into insta death pits are unfun, we should remove lucio and pharah from the game. it's not about positioning, those people can just appear out of nowhere and shoot me off the map.
    i'm sure i could list a few more.

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    BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    Running into a beartrap hidden by terrain and getting dunked on in less than a second by a waiting junk is unfun, it should be removed from the game.
    Waiting to respawn is unfun.
    Part of the multiplayer experience is that your unfun is going to be part of someone else's fun. It's part of the social contract, and I think having some unfun bits like this in a game is honestly healthy.

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    Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    "she took your ability to have fun completely out of your hands" is exactly how a lot of folks feel about her though, is the thing

    again, it's not that she's OP or has no counterplay or anything, you're 100% right about all of that. but all of those same things apply to Reaper, for example, and I'm not mad when I die to a Reaper because of exactly that - I got too close, I got shot, I died, fine. obviously nobody likes dying to anyone in a competitive game, but being slowed-to-frozen is just plain unfun for lots of folks whether you die to it or not. how effective it is or isn't at winning the game and what methods there are to counteract it isn't really relevant to the in-the-moment experience

    personally I think where they have her now is a perfectly fine compromise, let her slow folks all day, and let her ult freeze because it's earned and at least it only happens every couple of minutes

    I'm confused cause you're basically saying what I said but saying it in a way that sounds like it runs counter somehow.

    The ability wasn't overpowered and it had counterplay, so there was no point to nerf it. I mean "rework" it.

    There is always a vocal group of gamers complaining about dying to things they don't like. Doesn't mean they're right.

    the point to rework it was that lots of people didn't find it fun to play against, it had nothing to do with being overpowered or un-counterable. I'm not sure how much better I can explain it than that.

    obviously what constitutes "fun" is gonna vary from person to person and I'm not here trying to convince you to feel differently about the ability itself, just clarifying the reason folks wanted it changed.

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    Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Running into a beartrap hidden by terrain and getting dunked on in less than a second by a waiting junk is unfun, it should be removed from the game.
    Waiting to respawn is unfun.
    Part of the multiplayer experience is that your unfun is going to be part of someone else's fun. It's part of the social contract, and I think having some unfun bits like this in a game is honestly healthy.

    okay but some things that are unfun should be removed from the game, and have been. that's like, what game design is

    Houk the Namebringer on
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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Mercy's Mass Res was fun for Mercy and her team, but decided unfun for people who just got a 5K. Hanzo's Scatter arrow instantly gibbing tanks was fun for him, not for the tank who just got one-shot in the toes or the Tracer around three corners who got randomly headshot by it. Sym Carwash. Double shield. GOATS. Release Brig. There are a mountain of things that have been binned because they felt like absolute ass to go against for whatever reason; lack of counterplay, boring counterplay, just plain overpowered, and Mei's freeze was one of them. Not stepping into traps, getting booped/hooked off ledges, being headshot, etc, are things that are still generally reactable to and can be prevented with good sense, quick reactions, and smart play. Even matchups like Rein vs Widow/Pharah where the tank can't actually threaten the DPS are fine because the tank still gets to hold the position. That's the natural balance every other game understands.

    But also, instant deaths from random headshots shouldn't exist. Because dying randomly to a Hanzo log thrown out at random or at somebody else entirely is absolutely frustrating as fuck. I've been against Overwatch's super low TTK since its inception basically.

    ArcTangent on
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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    "she took your ability to have fun completely out of your hands" is exactly how a lot of folks feel about her though, is the thing

    again, it's not that she's OP or has no counterplay or anything, you're 100% right about all of that. but all of those same things apply to Reaper, for example, and I'm not mad when I die to a Reaper because of exactly that - I got too close, I got shot, I died, fine. obviously nobody likes dying to anyone in a competitive game, but being slowed-to-frozen is just plain unfun for lots of folks whether you die to it or not. how effective it is or isn't at winning the game and what methods there are to counteract it isn't really relevant to the in-the-moment experience

    personally I think where they have her now is a perfectly fine compromise, let her slow folks all day, and let her ult freeze because it's earned and at least it only happens every couple of minutes

    I'm confused cause you're basically saying what I said but saying it in a way that sounds like it runs counter somehow.

    The ability wasn't overpowered and it had counterplay, so there was no point to nerf it. I mean "rework" it.

    There is always a vocal group of gamers complaining about dying to things they don't like. Doesn't mean they're right.

    the point to rework it was that lots of people didn't find it fun to play against, it had nothing to do with being overpowered or un-counterable. I'm not sure how much better I can explain it than that.

    obviously what constitutes "fun" is gonna vary from person to person and I'm not here trying to convince you to feel differently about the ability itself, just clarifying the reason folks wanted it changed.

    Well I'm gonna leave it alone after this but again you aren't really saying anything I wasn't saying.

    Like you're literally just saying what I said back at me but on the opposite end.

    This is what it looks like to me

    Me: "There will always be people complaining about something being "unfun" in a competitive game. So if a move isn't overpowered and has counterplay I see no reason to change it."

    You: "Yes, the move isn't overpowered and has counterplay but had to be removed cause people said it was "unfun".

    Like the reason I'm not seeing what you're saying is because we are simply looking at the same situation the only difference is how much we think "fun"(or rather people complaining about "unfun") matters in the grand scheme of things.

    Dragkonias on
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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Mercy's Mass Res was fun for Mercy and her team, but decided unfun for people who just got a 5K. Hanzo's Scatter arrow instantly gibbing tanks was fun for him, not for the tank who just got one-shot in the toes or the Tracer around three corners who got randomly headshot by it. Sym Carwash. Double shield. GOATS. Release Brig. There are a mountain of things that have been binned because they felt like absolute ass to go against for whatever reason; lack of counterplay, boring counterplay, just plain overpowered, and Mei's freeze was one of them. Not stepping into traps, getting booped/hooked off ledges, being headshot, etc, are things that are still generally reactable to and can be prevented with good sense, quick reactions, and smart play. Even matchups like Rein vs Widow/Pharah where the tank can't actually threaten the DPS are fine because the tank still gets to hold the position. That's the natural balance every other game understands.

    But also, instant deaths from random headshots shouldn't exist. Because dying randomly to a Hanzo log thrown out at random or at somebody else entirely is absolutely frustrating as fuck. I've been against Overwatch's super low TTK since its inception basically.

    You know I actually wanted to talk about Mercy Rez because it shows what I'm saying to a degree.

    Original Rez was changed because well it was cheesy, but at the time it wasn't unanimous cause a lot of the casual audience liked Rez because it was easy and impactful(one of the big selling points of OW1 at the start).

    They then changed it to Valk. And then they pro players complained again. Cause now Mercy was strong in a legit way but too strong. And they still didn't like playing Mercy.

    So they nerfed Mercy and then they pissed off a lot of more casual fans cause now she was boring(or unfun), like a lot of people will tell you that's when they quit OW. And then Mercy would spend the next few years as a Amp bot.

    Now I get why Rez was changed(not cause it was just "unfun" but it made people play in a weird way...like just holding ultimate and waiting for their team to die). Mercy's ultimate was a symptom of how powerful ultimates were.

    So then they made Valk and it was legit overpowered. It had to be nerfed because of that(once again not cause it was just "unfun")

    So then you ended with current Mercy. Casual players played her less cause she was boring. Pro players mostly didn't want to play her at all but still did when she was meta(cause they like winning more than anything).

    So you got a situation that didn't really make anyone happy persay. It just removed a problem they couldn't figure out. Which has been the OW design problem from day 1. Just removing things and saying they'll get back to it eventually.

    As for the other stuff...Launch Brig, Double Shield, Goats, etc were literally overpowered so I understand why they were changed that isn't what I'm talking about.

    Dragkonias on
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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    coming at it from a different angle (maybe)
    removing my ability to respond to a loss of control or death that is not instant but very short term seems overly punishing. a widow headshot is unfun but when you get hit by one, hopefully you stop peeking and the game continues. when mei walks up to your team, walls off the tank and freezes them and they die, the lesson is...don't play this game?
    (i actually think there are a few counters to an enemy team having a mei so i don't see it as end of the world but also i'm not really super into bringing it back either.

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    WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    This whole conversation ignores that some things can feel more punishing in some brackets vs. others. A lot of arguments are not true at one end of the scale.

    Especially if you're bad. Like me.

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