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[Overwatch] Overwatch 2 is Live!

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Posts

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Overwatch has a long history of doing dramatic hero changes and reworks that weren't strictly necessary - more often than not, the rationale for these is entirely subjective, and there are always players on both sides of the fence. You could argue that it's better to do nothing than to risk making it worse, and that's fair. But if there are no major changes in the 4 months between heroes, players get bored. From the devs' perspective it's probably better to err on the side of changing things rather than letting the game become stagnant.

  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    Overwatch has a long history of doing dramatic hero changes and reworks that weren't strictly necessary - more often than not, the rationale for these is entirely subjective, and there are always players on both sides of the fence. You could argue that it's better to do nothing than to risk making it worse, and that's fair. But if there are no major changes in the 4 months between heroes, players get bored. From the devs' perspective it's probably better to err on the side of changing things rather than letting the game become stagnant.

    i agree with this. i guess the question i would ask is in a roster of how many characters, why do you change mei when there are others that seem to be in more need of balance/tuning/redesign. i see plenty of meis in qp right now and i'm playing with bronze through masters there. sombra feels like a bigger need to address, also bastion is still blarg.

    LostNinja
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    The one shot changes were definitely motivated by frequent community complaints on the subject. I'm not sure where the Mei and Cass changes came from, they didn't say in the dev update - they just abruptly changed their minds about their CC philosophy, for no stated reason. Maybe it's a sign of course corrections being considered to right the ship. Although I personally like the design changes OW2 made.

    Zek on
  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    I know on console with lack of CC for everyone but tanks it has allowed characters like Lucio, Moira, Sombra and Tracer to easily roam the backfield, not even flank, just hardcore dive and disrupt because aiming is different. And it's not right to have the tank now have to worry about the back when they should focus on the forward. Flashbang really helped to keep people in check, and

    Musicool
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Hi guys, long time.

    I see y'all are talking about the Mei nerfs and the weird thing is I'm in support of them but for weird reasons that don't quite align with anyone here. So being a high Plat tank main in Ow1 to a returning mid Gold tank main jn OW2 (possibly relevant so just giving that info) I much prefer old Mei to new Mei.

    It might just be where I am on the ladder but the whole slow+higher dps (and you're a solo tank) feels more like she's just an ez pick tank bullyversus the old Mei... who was still annoying to tank players but couldn't abuse that as much? Like, tanks could play around the fact that she could absolutely TRY (and fail) to force a 1v1 against you, but nowadays the loss of the freeze feels less of a downside than the added damage and the 100% uptime slow is an upside. It feels like dps players can just more easily say "the enemy tank is winning the 1v1 so now imma pick Mei".

    I think it might be more related to the fact that the 1v1 tank matchup is so much more relevant and stressful, but at the end of the day, I've started to think of 2-3 non-tank heroes as saying "do your best, but your best option here is to play as optimally as you can against ME (the non-tank matchup) and hope that the rest of your team plays around this new reality where your own pick and playstyle doesn't matter anymore." The other picks are Widow and mayyyyyybe Zen btw.

    And I don't remember ever feeling that way in OW1. Like I said, it could just be coming back ti the game and not being as Git Gud as before, but it's still a feeling I don't remember having even back when I was deep in silver - EVER. I simply don't remember being as checked out in an OW game as in OW2 when I see an enemy player pick one of those 3 heroes, so if the price of returning that feeling to tank players is nerfing Mei and Widow...I kind of don't care that that's the price?

    Could just be bad memory, but those are my thoughts.

    Tldr: I think she's kinda more oppressive at lower ranks than she was even back in the day, and it's partly related to her 100% uptime slow and higher dps and partly because of the 1 tank dealio. And I'm totally in support of nerving her for that because if your answer to a Mei pick is "just suddenly be super better at the 1v1+Mei at your MMR" then OK, I'll go play another game again. There were more options back in OW1 than just "Git gud" and that's why I kept playing THAT game as a tank main.

    Tldr 2: sorry, how hero picks and counterpicks FEEL matters to me (and I think tank players generally) these days, and I support balancing explicitly around that feeling like I never would have in OW1!

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited June 2023
    My personal feeling is that it should never have dropped to one tank.

    Nobody likes shooting at shields but the fact is every character in this game has powers that would destroy the balance of any other multiplayer shooter. Having two tanks to mitigate some damage meant you could poke the other team’s defenses. They turned a high-speed, high intensity chess match into a modded Quake deathmatch where (generally speaking) whoever gets the first pick on the enemy team wins the team fight.

    Two tanks allowed a little redundancy in damage mitigation so that if you dropped a team member you could still be viable, but the odds were a little heavier against you. Or maybe you pull back and save your teammates until your dead teammate comes back. As it is in OW2 losing a teammate causes a domino effect where you either have a team wipe and have to totally reset or you stagger in while the enemy marches up to the objective mostly unmolested.

    And that’s all to say nothing of the fun combinations in tanks that are just gone now. No more Zarya/Rein, no more DVa/Winston or DVa/Hog diving, etc.

    joshofalltrades on
    DragkoniasTexiKenLostNinjaChanceBloodySlothCruorReynoldsNobody
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Yeah. Even though tanks are theoretically more powerful now I really miss the interplay of tank synergy.

    LostNinja
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    My personal feeling is that it should never have dropped to one tank.

    Nobody likes shooting at shields but the fact is every character in this game has powers that would destroy the balance of any other multiplayer shooter. Having two tanks to mitigate some damage meant you could poke the other team’s defenses. They turned a high-speed, high intensity chess match into a modded Quake deathmatch where (generally speaking) whoever gets the first pick on the enemy team wins the team fight.

    Two tanks allowed a little redundancy in damage mitigation so that if you dropped a team member you could still be viable, but the odds were a little heavier against you. Or maybe you pull back and save your teammates until your dead teammate comes back. As it is in OW2 losing a teammate causes a domino effect where you either have a team wipe and have to totally reset or you stagger in while the enemy marches up to the objective mostly unmolested.

    And that’s all to say nothing of the fun combinations in tanks that are just gone now. No more Zarya/Rein, no more DVa/Winston or DVa/Hog diving, etc.

    I agree with single tank sucking. Regarding the shields, I’d much rather deal with those, even the double shield, over almost every tank now having some sort of “fuck you temp +100hp boost” ability.

    LostNinja on
    TexiKen
  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    I wouldn't go that far. Double shield was so bad that when played competently it kind of nullified half the cast.

    But I dunno, kind of wish maybe we got a more elegant solution.

    Dragkonias on
    TexiKenBRIAN BLESSED
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    As a tank player I greatly prefer single tank. 6v6 tank was boring, and the queue times were a mess as a result. People seem to have selective memories about that. DPS queue times were like 8 minutes long. Now it's 1 minute in every role.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited June 2023
    I guess I never really minded the queue times before. But I played flex so.

    Also lol at one minute in every role. If I queue flex or support I insta-join. If I go DPS only it takes upwards of 5 minutes.

    joshofalltrades on
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I guess I never really minded the queue times before. But I played flex so.

    Also lol at one minute in every role. If I queue flex or support I insta-join. If I go DPS only it takes upwards of 5 minutes.

    I dunno for me in plat it's been 1 minute for months, even now at the tail end of the season.

  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Queue times were bad because DPS selection was lopsided.

    And I guess they fixed it by making tanks beefier DPS so DPS mains would pick something else but I find the team deathmatch style of the game pretty boring now.

    Dragkonias on
    TexiKenjoshofalltrades
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    I guess I never really minded the queue times before. But I played flex so.

    Also lol at one minute in every role. If I queue flex or support I insta-join. If I go DPS only it takes upwards of 5 minutes.

    I dunno for me in plat it's been 1 minute for months, even now at the tail end of the season.

    I mostly do quickplay because I’m a dad that needs to be able to step away sometimes between matches and comp teams don’t wanna deal with waits

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Queue times were bad because DPS selection was lopsided.

    And I guess they fixed it by making tanks beefier DPS so DPS mains would pick something else but I find the team deathmatch style of the game pretty boring now.

    It also really dilutes role identities. That extends to supports too. The effectiveness of healing is very diminished with the focus on burst damage. Lots of healers in my solo queue just focus on doing DPS during team fights and heal up after the wipe; I can’t even tell them that’s the wrong move strategically.

  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    (Watches the Xbox showcase.)



    Oh good, that'll fix the matchmaker. 👍

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    TexiKen
  • EspantaPajaroEspantaPajaro Registered User regular
    Feel kinda dishonest to advertise story stuff after they scrapped story mode ?

    TexiKenReynolds
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    As a tank player I greatly prefer single tank. 6v6 tank was boring, and the queue times were a mess as a result. People seem to have selective memories about that. DPS queue times were like 8 minutes long. Now it's 1 minute in every role.

    You keep saying this for months now and every time the majority disagree. The switch to 1 tank tripled my tank queue time. Everything but DPS was >1minute in OW1, in OW2 everything but Healer or flex (usually also healer though they will throw you a bone once in a while) is at least 3 minutes.

    DevoutlyApathetic
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Feel kinda dishonest to advertise story stuff after they scrapped story mode ?
    They never scrapped story mode.

    LostNinja wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    As a tank player I greatly prefer single tank. 6v6 tank was boring, and the queue times were a mess as a result. People seem to have selective memories about that. DPS queue times were like 8 minutes long. Now it's 1 minute in every role.

    You keep saying this for months now and every time the majority disagree. The switch to 1 tank tripled my tank queue time. Everything but DPS was >1minute in OW1, in OW2 everything but Healer or flex (usually also healer though they will throw you a bone once in a while) is at least 3 minutes.

    I don't know what to tell you? It's the truth. The reality matches the estimates.

    4fTIZRY.png

    Zek on
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    For you maybe, but others have consistently indicated to you that that is not what they are seeing. As such it’s untrue to continue stating it as an objective fact for all players.

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Even if your queues aren't as fast as mine, I still think it's clearly true that they've improved from OW1. Yes tank queues specifically did get longer, but not nearly to the extent that DPS queues were long before, and I think that's a reasonable tradeoff for the health of the game: 1 player per team in a medium length queue, instead of 2 players per team in a very long queue. The DPS queues were very long even in spite of the fact that they were bribing people to play tank/support - priority passes still didn't make DPS queues fast, just tolerable.

    When OW2 was in beta I recall the general buzz was that 5v5 was an improvement over 6v6, because it played faster. It was always subjective. But it feels like people's attitude towards the game has worsened even as the game itself has improved since then. I don't think I'm saying anything disrespectful here by posting in the Overwatch thread that I still enjoy the game.

    Zek on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Obviously you are allowed to have an opinion

  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited June 2023
    Zek wrote: »
    Even if your queues aren't as fast as mine, I still think it's clearly true that they've improved from OW1. Yes tank queues specifically did get longer, but not nearly to the extent that DPS queues were long before, and I think that's a reasonable tradeoff for the health of the game: 1 player per team in a medium length queue, instead of 2 players per team in a very long queue. The DPS queues were very long even in spite of the fact that they were bribing people to play tank/support - priority passes still didn't make DPS queues fast, just tolerable.

    This is a fair opinion and much different than objectively saying queues are all >1 minute when it’s been stated multiple times that isn’t the case for all players. The later minimizes the valid concern those other players have.
    I don't think I'm saying anything disrespectful here by posting in the Overwatch thread that I still enjoy the game.

    I never stated you weren’t able to. We all obviously still enjoy the game, at least to some extent, otherwise we wouldn’t still be playing it and posting about it.

    LostNinja on
  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    That trailer feels like the most dishonest thing I've seen since No Man's Sky initial launch. Don't give me the epic, uplifting music while trying to draw out the one PVE level you've have in the oven since 2019 and pretending its this all-new thing, especially after the lie of PVE to begin with. And then you have the chutzpah to pretend a target practice and hero challenges are these amazing new things?

    If you didn't know about the PVE lie a month ago and just saw that trailer, you'd think they would have dedicated PVE in August, and that really makes me mad.

    EspantaPajaro
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I think the campaign is going to be pretty much what they always advertised it to be, and players are going to discover that it just wasn't ever going to be that good. Overwatch PvE has always been an amusing distraction, it never had enough meat for long-term replayability. Hero missions were always just going to be Archives-style missions with an XP grind on top.

    BRIAN BLESSED
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    Feel kinda dishonest to advertise story stuff after they scrapped story mode ?
    They never scrapped story mode.

    They scrapped the parts of the story mode that everyone was most excited about, I don't think we need to "well technically" something that a lot of folks are super bummed about

    NobodyBionicPenguinBloodySlothjoshofalltrades
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Every single thing that's happened with OW2, from my position as a mid-skill console Tracer main, has elicited the response
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    Let's walk through it.

    Because there's one less tank to peel, they dropped Tracer's only means of damage output (short of melee and her ult) by 20%. TWENTY PERCENT. They bumped it up a smidgen, but it's still a massive difference
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    They turned on an ultra wide POV for console users - and didn't include the option to change it back - so effectively all enemies are smaller and harder to hit,
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    Mercy was already one of the harder supports to kill on Tracer because her HP regen would kick in during a Tracer's one-second reload, and they gave it to every support as a passive. OW2 balance for me is to make it far harder to one-clip anything, and make it far easier for every support to survive against me if I fail the one-clip, while Cassidies can still headshot-and-melee me and Meis and Ashes can still one-shot me,
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    Then they added another support that feels like she exists purely to fuck with my hero in particular, permitted as she is to headshot and melee-combo me faster than a Tracer could possibly headshot any 200HP hero to death and as a bonus now I have to track her fucking bell cooldown because if it's up, she can just take my ult and toss it in a ditch,
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    If a cool new skin or emote for my mains comes out, I can't play to get it. Thanks to Kotick and his Kotick ways, it's either pay for it or just not participate in (a great deal of) the game's content,
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    For reasons Blizzard seemingly cannot identify, MMR for a lot of the population seems kinda' fucked. Kinda' really fucked.
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    Because MMR is fucked, matchmaking is fucked and I am matched against current Top 500 players and Grandmasters 4/5 games if I queue DPS. To reiterate, I am a mid player. I lose and lose and lose and my reward is I seem to move UP in the MMR and it matches me against the best players in the game,
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad

    because now I am subjected to mouse users on console every. Single. Fucking. Game. When my brother and I played in our mid tier in OW1, even in its final months, cheaters using mice were rare. You'd meet one every six weeks or two months, as a smurf made its way up through the ranks, and it was like getting smoten by a God. There is no fighting back against a mouse user with aim assist, beyond the symbolic protest of trying - it's an absolutely horrible experience and now I get to enjoy it pretty much every single game,
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    What DOUBLE pisses me off about it is that current Blizzard president Mike Ybarra once said


    He could fix it, he says! Blizzard could "use APIs that detect and not allow these," and they permit it to continue for the same reason they abandoned console-specific balancing, the same reason the MMR is permitted to be absolutely bonkers, the same reason the game pits Grandmaster 1s against Silver 5s - the quality of the player's experience, the quality of the game is not a priority by any measure,
    TexiKen wrote: »
    and that really makes me mad.

    The quality of the game is unimportant. The status of the in-game shop is the highest priority.

    People are upset about the PvE lie or any recent thing and I'm not surprised any more. I'm surprised at the surprise. Blizzard comes out with a new turd, announces it's shiny, people look shocked to discover it reeks of shit and I'm just like, frantically gesturing to not just OW2 but like the last four or five years of Blizzard In General.

    OW2 has been a loss. I can't play Overwatch games, playing matches that feel fair and matched, with and against players of my skill, while working towards rewards I find valuable. That's gone - we paid for it, it was taken from us, and a few weeks back Blizzard updated the EULA to say that by playing OW2 you agreed to never sue them for the loss of OW1.

    Overwatch 2 : And That Really Makes Me Mad.

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    TexiKenBloodySlothMusicool
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    Feel kinda dishonest to advertise story stuff after they scrapped story mode ?
    They never scrapped story mode.

    They scrapped the parts of the story mode that everyone was most excited about, I don't think we need to "well technically" something that a lot of folks are super bummed about

    I wasn't trying to be pedantic, it appeared to be a misunderstanding - talents were never part of story mode. They were part of hero missions, which is the mode they cancelled. The OP was suggesting that the trailer was false advertising.

    BRIAN BLESSED
  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    I was always under the impression the PVE would be a 40-60 buck addition to the game, basically be a mini Destiny or Borderlands, and then have seasonal type additions raids that would be something like skins instead of equipment drops. I have never been under the impression it would just be archives 2.0. The talent tree was just a way to make replay more viable if there are some achievements or Legendary difficulty to win.

    BRIAN BLESSEDPailryderBloodySloth
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    That's where I think people were filling in a lot of gaps when Blizzard actually announced very little. All they said was that hero missions were randomized missions taking place in modified PvP maps, and that they would give you XP to spend on talents. Presumably you would just walk from one end of the map to the other while fighting off enemies. That really isn't very different from Archives at all. They never showed any real gameplay. I'm not mad about it being cancelled because it was never much of anything to begin with. The reason they're cancelling it is because they thought it wasn't any good, and not for lack of trying.

  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    So, I may be confused on how JK’s Carnage works. Does she not need to slice through you (or at least be in proximity) on her charge? Because I just got dinged when I was on the other side of a one of the raising walls when I was on the point in Mecha Base.

  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    walls are iffy at best

  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Protects me from a DVa bomb but not character waving around a hatchet. Check.

  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Earthshatter sitting in the corner, wondering what it has to do to consistently work when used on stairs or around the payload

    LostNinjaPailryder
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Earthshatter sitting in the corner, wondering what it has to do to consistently work when used on stairs or around the payload

    I have zero sympathy for Earthshatter. Oh, did your ult that stuns enemies in an area the size of a Red Lobster, deals 50 damage to enemies in its entire area of effect, pretty much one-shots anything within 6 meters of you, and executes faster than a Pulse Bomb detonates not go around a corner?

    Aww wee lamb. Poor babe.

    Ball, Dva, Zarya and Monkey are the only tanks in OW2 with reasonable ultimate abilities. Ram, Rein and Queen's ults are ridiculous.

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    TexiKen
  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    D.Va's ult is garbage, though. It's really only good for getting potentially another life (and probably losing half your new health before you can do anything) unless you're playing on very specific parts of certain maps or your opponents are braindead.

  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    D.Va's ult having reasonable counterplay is not a reason for Junker Queen to deal like 100 damage to your entire team in an area the size of two Red Lobsters and inflict anti heal on all of them and heal herself for double the damage that her Carnage just inflicted on your team.

    Some tank ults are reasonable, and some are just stupid.

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    LostNinja
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    pharah staring off into the distance...
    no i agree, i think A LOT of ults need to be reworked. I think, "why" there are ults needs to be re-evaulated. Are ults supposed to get a team kill, or are they supposed to allow clearing an area or what? It's ok that some have different purposes than others but there are definitely some winners and losers right now that need to be fixed with how the game was changed in OW2.

    TexiKenChance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Name me an OP DPS ult.

    Some are arguably OP - but even then I can't say Riptire is. Like a DVA bomb it can wipe a team but more likely just gets stuffed, or nets a single guaranteed kill.

    Dragonblade? Takes a ton of practice and skill and even then a good sleep dart - or just your first dash target escaping - just stuffs it.

    There is no DPS with an OP ult, now that Sojourn got her nerf.

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    TexiKen
  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Chance wrote: »
    D.Va's ult having reasonable counterplay is not a reason for Junker Queen to deal like 100 damage to your entire team in an area the size of two Red Lobsters and inflict anti heal on all of them and heal herself for double the damage that her Carnage just inflicted on your team.

    Some tank ults are reasonable, and some are just stupid.

    The counter to Queen is to not group up. If she's hitting more than 2 or 3 people, she deserved to hit that many.

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