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[Overwatch] Overwatch 2 Launching October 4th! New Hero The Junker Queen.

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Posts

  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Genji's been OP for a few weeks. This isn't OP Brig for 7 months or OP Mercy for 3-4 months. Give them a chance to fix him. He doesn't even need that much tweaking.

    Also, the Summer Showdown (a week and a half ago) was probably the single most exciting weekend of pro Overwatch since the game's inception.

    KanaHouk the NamebringerChance
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Brig at her worst was only a problem at the upper levels. She's never been a common pick down here for us plebians, and more often than not, we were getting 4 DPS teams, not GOATs.

    Genji was already omnipresent at most levels because he's a screaming Japanese man, and blade an almost guaranteed 1-2 kills with nanoblade worse. Now he's just... fucking everywhere, which is not the way they should be addressing the issue with other DPS, but that's how it's gone from the start. Power creep for DPS. Nerfs for everybody else.

    I think they're both in kind of a bad spot right now to be honest. Too much of Genji's power is in his ult, and Brig needs to have her identity/role figured the fuck out and then commit to it, but I'm probably biased because I really like both their direct analogues in Paladins (Maeve and Furia).

  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    @TexiKen that is totally his best skins.

    And if streaks that balance out win rate are a thing, after last night, I'm about to have a very good evening.

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    "Ogon’ po gotovnosti!"
    --wait for it, wait for it, wait for it--
    "Ryuujin no k--"
    "Oh, let's break it down!"

    You know you outplayed the Genji when he futilely tries to chase you down on fucking Anubis of all places. That place is like Lucio paradise. It just needs a pit to throw people into.

  • miscellaneousinsanitymiscellaneousinsanity grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered User regular
    i posit that any sigma skin that does not show toes cannot by definition be considered best

  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    i posit that any sigma skin that does not show toes cannot by definition be considered best

    Ah. Ahah. Mm. Just so. But counterpoint:

    tn3olvi3eh4r.jpeg

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    "Ogon’ po gotovnosti!"
    --wait for it, wait for it, wait for it--
    "Ryuujin no k--"
    "Oh, let's break it down!"

    You know you outplayed the Genji when he futilely tries to chase you down on fucking Anubis of all places. That place is like Lucio paradise. It just needs a pit to throw people into.

    Blueballing a blading Genji is one of life's greatest pleasures.

    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    I actually just now realized the new sigma skin has him wearing violin armor.

    its

    its too powerful. i can't deal

    i actually appreciate that you can't see his toes-ies because otherwise we'd just have to close up shop. art is finished everyone, we did it

    Fencingsax
  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    Honestly, I was very surprised to see that they let buffs that big actually make it live, I thought they were absurd from the jump.

    The flankers are on such a thin line between wet noodle, good/viable, and broken beyond all reason, you really need a light touch when it comes to any of them. This was not a light touch.

    Genji right now feels about as strong as any DPS has ever been at any point in the game's lifespan. I am reminded of that brief window when McCree's falloff damage was all but eliminated and he was obviously, laughably overpowered. That lasted about a week.

    It definitely does bring to mind the Hanzo meta where teams were just trading off boosted Grav/Dragon teamkills, except now it's Nano Blade teamwipes. Not fun or interesting.

    They definitely should consider tweaking both the damage AND alt-fire spread buffs (if not fully reverting the spread buff.)

    TexiKen
  • jammujammu 2020 is now. Registered User regular
    Chance wrote: »
    i posit that any sigma skin that does not show toes cannot by definition be considered best

    Ah. Ahah. Mm. Just so. But counterpoint:

    tn3olvi3eh4r.jpeg

    UH! Without the shoulderpads, that would be the perfect skin.

    Ww8FAMg.jpg
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    jammu wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    i posit that any sigma skin that does not show toes cannot by definition be considered best

    Ah. Ahah. Mm. Just so. But counterpoint:

    tn3olvi3eh4r.jpeg

    UH! Without the shoulderpads, that would be the perfect skin.

    I think the shoulderpads are a silhouette thing, Sigma needs to have a large frame as a tank.

    FencingsaxChanceemnmnme
  • miscellaneousinsanitymiscellaneousinsanity grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered User regular
    I actually just now realized the new sigma skin has him wearing violin armor.

    its

    its too powerful. i can't deal

    i actually appreciate that you can't see his toes-ies because otherwise we'd just have to close up shop. art is finished everyone, we did it

    he's got a drum for a backpack, too!

    BloodySloth
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Kasyn wrote: »
    Honestly, I was very surprised to see that they let buffs that big actually make it live, I thought they were absurd from the jump.

    The flankers are on such a thin line between wet noodle, good/viable, and broken beyond all reason, you really need a light touch when it comes to any of them. This was not a light touch.

    Genji right now feels about as strong as any DPS has ever been at any point in the game's lifespan. I am reminded of that brief window when McCree's falloff damage was all but eliminated and he was obviously, laughably overpowered. That lasted about a week.

    It definitely does bring to mind the Hanzo meta where teams were just trading off boosted Grav/Dragon teamkills, except now it's Nano Blade teamwipes. Not fun or interesting.

    They definitely should consider tweaking both the damage AND alt-fire spread buffs (if not fully reverting the spread buff.)

    his inability to do meaningful damage in neutral fights is exactly why he was out of the meta for so long before. maybe they could bring down his normal damage a touch, but tbh i think all it takes to bring him in line is to reduce his ult charge so that he doesn't have blade every single fight. they maybe could also reduce his ult time by a second or two to limit the snowball effect you get from getting the first one or two kills during the ult.

    BionicPenguin
  • miscellaneousinsanitymiscellaneousinsanity grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered User regular
    also saw this pointed out yesterday, good on them

    FencingsaxChanceNobodyBionicPenguinsanstodoAuralynx
  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    edited July 2020
    Kasyn wrote: »
    Honestly, I was very surprised to see that they let buffs that big actually make it live, I thought they were absurd from the jump.

    The flankers are on such a thin line between wet noodle, good/viable, and broken beyond all reason, you really need a light touch when it comes to any of them. This was not a light touch.

    Genji right now feels about as strong as any DPS has ever been at any point in the game's lifespan. I am reminded of that brief window when McCree's falloff damage was all but eliminated and he was obviously, laughably overpowered. That lasted about a week.

    It definitely does bring to mind the Hanzo meta where teams were just trading off boosted Grav/Dragon teamkills, except now it's Nano Blade teamwipes. Not fun or interesting.

    They definitely should consider tweaking both the damage AND alt-fire spread buffs (if not fully reverting the spread buff.)

    his inability to do meaningful damage in neutral fights is exactly why he was out of the meta for so long before. maybe they could bring down his normal damage a touch, but tbh i think all it takes to bring him in line is to reduce his ult charge so that he doesn't have blade every single fight. they maybe could also reduce his ult time by a second or two to limit the snowball effect you get from getting the first one or two kills during the ult.

    His weakness there in neutral fights is one of the features he's balanced around. He's there for his ults and to remove individual threats. Now he melts tanks and teams in addition to everything he was already built for. Remove one of his core weaknesses and you have yourself a busted, meta-warping champion.

    If they change the ult, I'd also really like to see them address the hitbox. It should be considerably less forgiving than it is.

    They should...
    • Revert half of the damage buff they gave to his primary fire
    • Revert some or all of the secondary fire spread change
    • Make the blade hitbox actually make fucking sense. (Aside from being generally way too forgiving, it actually is wonky in ways that hurts the Genji, too. Fix it all.)

    Kasyn on
    TexiKenBRIAN BLESSED
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    i mean a big chunk of the reason hes so played right now is that because he is a vertically mobile flanker he ignores double shield and his teamwipe ult also ignores double shield, and defensive ults are useless garbage

    he works into all tank comps

    obF2Wuw.png
    jammuTexiKensanstodoAuralynx
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Kasyn wrote: »
    Kasyn wrote: »
    Honestly, I was very surprised to see that they let buffs that big actually make it live, I thought they were absurd from the jump.

    The flankers are on such a thin line between wet noodle, good/viable, and broken beyond all reason, you really need a light touch when it comes to any of them. This was not a light touch.

    Genji right now feels about as strong as any DPS has ever been at any point in the game's lifespan. I am reminded of that brief window when McCree's falloff damage was all but eliminated and he was obviously, laughably overpowered. That lasted about a week.

    It definitely does bring to mind the Hanzo meta where teams were just trading off boosted Grav/Dragon teamkills, except now it's Nano Blade teamwipes. Not fun or interesting.

    They definitely should consider tweaking both the damage AND alt-fire spread buffs (if not fully reverting the spread buff.)

    his inability to do meaningful damage in neutral fights is exactly why he was out of the meta for so long before. maybe they could bring down his normal damage a touch, but tbh i think all it takes to bring him in line is to reduce his ult charge so that he doesn't have blade every single fight. they maybe could also reduce his ult time by a second or two to limit the snowball effect you get from getting the first one or two kills during the ult.

    His weakness there in neutral fights is one of the features he's balanced around. He's there for his ults and to remove individual threats. Now he melts tanks and teams in addition to everything he was already built for. Remove one of his core weaknesses and you have yourself a busted, meta-warping champion.

    If they change the ult, I'd also really like to see them address the hitbox. It should be considerably less forgiving than it is.

    They should...
    • Revert half of the damage buff they gave to his primary fire
    • Revert some or all of the secondary fire spread change
    • Make the blade hitbox actually make fucking sense. (Aside from being generally way too forgiving, it actually is wonky in ways that hurts the Genji, too. Fix it all.)

    i don't really disagree with your assessment but personally i'd much rather them keep his neutral game strong and scale back his ult as necessary (this is a general design thing for me, i really don't like characters being designed/balanced around a super-strong ult)

    as far as his ult hitbox, i couldn't agree more

    BionicPenguin
  • TexiKenTexiKen Registered User regular
    Revert the spread on the alt, and remove the cancel on deflect, and that'd be fine. Implement that with a 15% ult increase for every hero and you might make a difference. Otherwise remove dash completely from his ult and also making the dash reset only count on final blows throughout.

    My real concern is in response to Genji being OP they will jack up Winston's damage and make him tear through other squishies as a result, further pushing the tanks to smother the game (I think Winston is the most balanced character right now).

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I'd love to see a nerf to nanoblade, whatever form that has to take (on Genji, not Ana). A nanoblade team wipe is the most boring shit ever. Everybody just has to roll their eyes and move on.

  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    edited July 2020
    one thing that's easy to overlook is just to what extent Orisa's halt enables a lot of killer ults/abilities/combos, including the current Genji meta. like, halt is probably secretly the most powerful ability in the game. halts are used to initiate sooo many ults and other abilities that wouldn't be nearly as effective if you didn't have a reliable way to group your enemy together. obviously this requires pretty precise team coordination so you only really see it in OWL and top-level ranked, but a lot of skills, combos, and general team comps would look a lot different if halt weren't in the game.

    if you watch the most recent OWL matches closely, you'll notice that a lot of Genji ults start with Orisa halting the enemy together so he can dash through/cleave with his blade, a lot of Sigma ults and rocks are combo'd with halts, Mei ult, Ana grenades, etc.

    i dunno if i'd call it broken exactly, but the extent of its versatility and potential impact in a coordinated team is kind of insane.

    Houk the Namebringer on
    miscellaneousinsanityAuralynx
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    one thing that's easy to overlook is just to what extent Orisa's halt enables a lot of killer ults/abilities/combos, including the current Genji meta. like, halt is probably secretly the most powerful ability in the game. halts are used to initiate sooo many ults and other abilities that wouldn't be nearly as effective if you didn't have a reliable way to group your enemy together. obviously this requires pretty precise team coordination so you only really see it in OWL and top-level ranked, but a lot of skills, combos, and general team comps would look a lot different if halt weren't in the game.

    if you watch the most recent OWL matches closely, you'll notice that a lot of Genji ults start with Orisa halting the enemy together so he can dash through/cleave with his blade, a lot of Sigma ults and rocks are combo'd with halts, Mei ult, Ana grenades, etc.

    i dunno if i'd call it broken exactly, but the extent of its versatility and potential impact in a coordinated team is kind of insane.

    Whether it's GOATs, dive, or pirate ship, it's always "get everybody together into a death ball," which makes stuff like that (and Grav) particularly deadly. I'm not sure that there's a good way to change that without pretty massively overhauling map layouts and mechanics. Poking is heavily discouraged and, weird to say, but mobility, is way too weak. It absolutely could be done though, and I think almost everybody would greatly prefer a more open, mobile game. The only way I could see it happening though is if the Push maps are good and popular enough to basically singlehandedly twist the game around them.

  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    one thing that's easy to overlook is just to what extent Orisa's halt enables a lot of killer ults/abilities/combos, including the current Genji meta. like, halt is probably secretly the most powerful ability in the game. halts are used to initiate sooo many ults and other abilities that wouldn't be nearly as effective if you didn't have a reliable way to group your enemy together. obviously this requires pretty precise team coordination so you only really see it in OWL and top-level ranked, but a lot of skills, combos, and general team comps would look a lot different if halt weren't in the game.

    if you watch the most recent OWL matches closely, you'll notice that a lot of Genji ults start with Orisa halting the enemy together so he can dash through/cleave with his blade, a lot of Sigma ults and rocks are combo'd with halts, Mei ult, Ana grenades, etc.

    i dunno if i'd call it broken exactly, but the extent of its versatility and potential impact in a coordinated team is kind of insane.

    Whether it's GOATs, dive, or pirate ship, it's always "get everybody together into a death ball," which makes stuff like that (and Grav) particularly deadly. I'm not sure that there's a good way to change that without pretty massively overhauling map layouts and mechanics. Poking is heavily discouraged and, weird to say, but mobility, is way too weak. It absolutely could be done though, and I think almost everybody would greatly prefer a more open, mobile game. The only way I could see it happening though is if the Push maps are good and popular enough to basically singlehandedly twist the game around them.

    Dispatch from the Department of Bad Ideas

    Party of Six? Ma'am, This Establishment Only Has Tables For One

    Orisa's Halt is expanded in terms of the radius of its hitbox. However, it now only affects the first target that it hits directly, and carries them off for several meters before detonating after impact. Affected targets can still aim and shoot as normal.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    I... hesitate about changing halt more than it's already been changed, seeing as how orisa is already often picked out of obligation more than fun factor, and halt is probably the most fun thing about orisa (apart from going gold while a mei tries to foolishly solo you)

  • miscellaneousinsanitymiscellaneousinsanity grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered User regular
  • CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    Mommy DVa

    t1iylq0d7o1p.png
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    I actually just now realized the new sigma skin has him wearing violin armor.

    Okay, so it wasn't just me then. Whew.

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    As neat as some of the things they're letting people do with the Workshop, I would be shocked if more than like, 2% of players had interacted with it in any way beyond like... that one Gun Game mode they pulled from it into the arcade, and so far it doesn't seem like they're using it as a way to make or showcase special things like seasonal events with it either. I just can't help but wonder why they're putting so much effort into it.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    As neat as some of the things they're letting people do with the Workshop, I would be shocked if more than like, 2% of players had interacted with it in any way beyond like... that one Gun Game mode they pulled from it into the arcade, and so far it doesn't seem like they're using it as a way to make or showcase special things like seasonal events with it either. I just can't help but wonder why they're putting so much effort into it.

    I'm a glutton for developer-supported tool sets for multiplayer games, and have been since Build Editor. And it's super-cool that Blizzard included a content tool with Overwatch.

    But we're not looking at something like "Forge" in Halo. Halo 5 almost indisputably has the largest custom content community of any current generation game on console (the closest rival I could think of is Dreams, which is less multiplayer focused admittedly but much more granular, and also not as old). Certainly of any first-person shooter. The capabilities of Forge are insane. People adding their own take on vehicles from previous Halo titles, outright putting other games into the engine like Rocket League, Battlegrounds, PT and even Overwatch...with limitations, naturally. And from an in-game tool (though you can also use Forge on PC).

    You'd have to seriously expand the custom game system in Overwatch to broach that I think. Still, it's definitely better than nothing.

  • sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    Kupi wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    one thing that's easy to overlook is just to what extent Orisa's halt enables a lot of killer ults/abilities/combos, including the current Genji meta. like, halt is probably secretly the most powerful ability in the game. halts are used to initiate sooo many ults and other abilities that wouldn't be nearly as effective if you didn't have a reliable way to group your enemy together. obviously this requires pretty precise team coordination so you only really see it in OWL and top-level ranked, but a lot of skills, combos, and general team comps would look a lot different if halt weren't in the game.

    if you watch the most recent OWL matches closely, you'll notice that a lot of Genji ults start with Orisa halting the enemy together so he can dash through/cleave with his blade, a lot of Sigma ults and rocks are combo'd with halts, Mei ult, Ana grenades, etc.

    i dunno if i'd call it broken exactly, but the extent of its versatility and potential impact in a coordinated team is kind of insane.

    Whether it's GOATs, dive, or pirate ship, it's always "get everybody together into a death ball," which makes stuff like that (and Grav) particularly deadly. I'm not sure that there's a good way to change that without pretty massively overhauling map layouts and mechanics. Poking is heavily discouraged and, weird to say, but mobility, is way too weak. It absolutely could be done though, and I think almost everybody would greatly prefer a more open, mobile game. The only way I could see it happening though is if the Push maps are good and popular enough to basically singlehandedly twist the game around them.

    Dispatch from the Department of Bad Ideas

    Party of Six? Ma'am, This Establishment Only Has Tables For One

    Orisa's Halt is expanded in terms of the radius of its hitbox. However, it now only affects the first target that it hits directly, and carries them off for several meters before detonating after impact. Affected targets can still aim and shoot as normal.

    Orisa’s halt only effects friendly players and flings them like a slingshot.

    Pailryder
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    The Workshop has put out a hanful of legitimately really fun game modes, and a handful of insane goofing around modes that are worth playing for a little while. The two big things it really needs to be the real deal are a scripting language and a map editor. I hope the fact that they're still investing in it means they'll consider evolving it into real mod support some day. For lower hanging fruit, I want abilities/weapons to be interchangable between characters, and I also want it to fully plug in to the replayable PvE maps from OW2.

  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited July 2020
    i mean a big chunk of the reason hes so played right now is that because he is a vertically mobile flanker he ignores double shield and his teamwipe ult also ignores double shield, and defensive ults are useless garbage

    he works into all tank comps

    Defensive ults being bad is a big one I feel. Especially when they used to be so strong.

    Lucio beat is a decent counter but it takes forever to charge and they increased the charge cost even further because of goats.

    Transcendence is okay but a) Ana counters it(lol) and you have to play Zen who is mostly irrelevant in this age of mobile, burst healers.

    And well Valkyrie got all its comeback potential stripped away and mass res doesn't exist anymore.

    Like nanoblade being oppressive isn't just about Genji its about those nerfs too.

    Dragkonias on
    BloodySloth
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    i mean a big chunk of the reason hes so played right now is that because he is a vertically mobile flanker he ignores double shield and his teamwipe ult also ignores double shield, and defensive ults are useless garbage

    he works into all tank comps

    Defensive ults being bad is a big one I feel. Especially when they used to be so strong.

    Lucio beat is a decent counter but it takes forever to charge and they increased the charge cost even further because of goats.

    Transcendence is okay but a) Ana counters it(lol) and you have to play Zen who is mostly irrelevant in this age of mobile, burst healers.

    And well Valkyrie got all its comeback potential stripped away and mass res doesn't exist anymore.

    Like nanoblade being oppressive isn't just about Genji its about those nerfs too.

    I've banged on this drum a lot, but offensive ults being so damn deadly really limits the space for other ults since that's what they need to be compared against and used with.

  • baudattitudebaudattitude Registered User regular
    When I am cynical about the state of support I tend to think that Blizzard has started making decisions less on balance and more on what will look super cool on a twitch stream and sees healing as a drag that slows down those righteous kill shots, bro, or worst case actually reverses the effect of a righteous kill shot, bro.

    I may have spent a few months healing in WoW battlegrounds that may have contributed to this somewhat jaundiced attitude.

    Phoenix-D
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    When I am cynical about the state of support I tend to think that Blizzard has started making decisions less on balance and more on what will look super cool on a twitch stream and sees healing as a drag that slows down those righteous kill shots, bro, or worst case actually reverses the effect of a righteous kill shot, bro.

    I may have spent a few months healing in WoW battlegrounds that may have contributed to this somewhat jaundiced attitude.

    I think it's much more likely that that they don't want supports to be able to steal DPS's thunder. It's also part of the problem that the best defense against things like Dragonblade is another DPS ult, not an offensive ult.

    There's a lot of rooms for ults to be way more of a spectacle and satisfying/fun to use, but much harder to get the massive value that they do right now, but I think any attempt to make DPS ults less deadly is going to be met with outright rebellion from that class of the playerbase, and it doesn't seem like they're paying attention to anybody but them lately.

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited July 2020
    When I am cynical about the state of support I tend to think that Blizzard has started making decisions less on balance and more on what will look super cool on a twitch stream and sees healing as a drag that slows down those righteous kill shots, bro, or worst case actually reverses the effect of a righteous kill shot, bro.

    I may have spent a few months healing in WoW battlegrounds that may have contributed to this somewhat jaundiced attitude.

    Nobody likes over-tuned healing, it results in games of endless DPS spam where nobody dies so the objectives never progress. It doesn't really require a cynical explanation.

    Zek on
  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    If anything, healing is overtuned. It's at a level where burst damage is way better than sustained damage. AoE heals are out of control and I think they need to implement some sort of limit on how much healing a single person can receive.

    Chance
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    If anything, healing is overtuned. It's at a level where burst damage is way better than sustained damage. AoE heals are out of control and I think they need to implement some sort of limit on how much healing a single person can receive.

    Chicken and egg. Healing has to be so strong because TTK is so short. DPS melt tanks and vaporize squishies. Healing doesn't have to directly counteract that, but it can't be so weak that there's just no point to it in a fight at all either. You also want to avoid situations where people are forced to sit in cover for long periods, patiently waiting for the healers to be able to get everyone back to full. That's fun for nobody. Better yet, also add passive out-of-combat regen instead of health packs. Health packs are super, super dumb and awful and I wish they weren't a thing at all.

    I think a really elegant solution would be a cauterize mechanic. Whenever you take damage, for the next, say 2 seconds, healing received is reduced by 50%. That'd help to differentiate tanks better (ie barrier tanks that can turn off damage to get that to kick in), and reward out of combat healing/good positioning. It'd add a little more complexity, but I'd say it's inline with other invisible/unexplained game mechanics like the payload having a heal aura and enemy HP indicators being invisible until you damage them. A little more complexity some half a decade into the game is also probably due.

    In my perfect world, they'd adopt a greatly simplified talent system to Paladins. Let every DPS pick from (and freely switch between in spawn) cauterize, shield-breaker, and... I don't know, CD resets on elims, to adapt to and counter whatever's carrying on the enemy side. And tanks/supports have their own things. It seemed like they were experimenting with something like that a little bit with the talent choices, but I got the impression that would be for PvE stuff only, and was leaning a little more toward the card loadout crap in Paladins, which I like the end results with the synergies, but would much rather all that just be baseline rather than the unpleasant surprises whenever someone is running something strange/unexpected. Still hoping though.

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I dunno, healing and TTK and health kits all seem fine to me? It sounds like you just fundamentally don't like the holy trinity design of the game. They've been fine tuning this stuff for years and I think they've done a competent job all things considered.

  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    health packs are good because they create tactical positioning considerations for flankers and their counters. (good) health pack placements create additional areas of contention as the match progresses, which varies up attack and defense options. they aren't just there to heal up between engagements, they also create mini-battlegrounds during engagements that don't rely on additional healer attention. basically, they serve a pretty specific design function beyond just topping off health when you're not in battle.

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited July 2020
    Zek wrote: »
    I dunno, healing and TTK and health kits all seem fine to me? It sounds like you just fundamentally don't like the holy trinity design of the game. They've been fine tuning this stuff for years and I think they've done a competent job all things considered.

    Arguing with the wrong person. I was saying why healing needs to be as strong as it is and why it shouldn't be globally reduced, at least without other major changes. I am also staunchly in favor of increasing TTK, but I'd say they're more or less in general harmony at the moment, outside of maybe a few things like the silliness of like... Reaper's self-sustain against tanks. That said, I think I'd rather see healers buffed on the damage front to be less treated as healbots, which would overall reduce TTK. *shrug*
    health packs are good because they create tactical positioning considerations for flankers and their counters. (good) health pack placements create additional areas of contention as the match progresses, which varies up attack and defense options. they aren't just there to heal up between engagements, they also create mini-battlegrounds during engagements that don't rely on additional healer attention. basically, they serve a pretty specific design function beyond just topping off health when you're not in battle.

    Let me refine myself then. The burst healing they provide, and the map impacts built around them have an undesirable impact on the game and map complexity. Lots of alleys, nooks, and crannies exist exclusively to house healthpacks. A fight on top of one also provides a significant instant burst of healing to essentially a random person, and a lot of them being adjacent to, or even directly on the path through chokes (looking at you, Anubis). If you moved all of them to out of the way places where they basically just served the point of out-of-combat healing, that'd be hunky dory, but I feel like just providing baseline out of combat regen would serve that better and make maps less complex.

    ArcTangent on
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