Another grammar question. This time quotes!

Jebus314

So I’m trying to figure out if punctuation should go inside or outside the quotes for a specific case. From what I can tell there is no exception to the rule that punctuation should go inside quotation marks.

But my particular case is describing how something should look, and I think it makes it seem like I am asking for the punctuation to be included. Example:

Your file name should follow the typical structure: “Description_Date_Name.”

In that sentence it seems like the period is part of the required naming scheme. But I haven’t been able to find any references to that type of quotation mark usage that exempts the punctuation inside quotation marks rule.

Thoughts?

Smasher

I think that rule is silly to begin with, but in a situation like yours it makes even less sense than normal. Go with correctness over "grammatical accuracy".

Edit: That might have been ambiguous, put the period outside the quotes.

Inquisitor77

The American English "rule" that commas and periods go inside quotation marks, without exception, is completely asinine and I regularly ignore it. From personal experience, having lived in both countries, I know the Brits and Aussies don't do it, either. They use the coherent and logical approach where you put the punctuation mark inside the quotes when it's part of the quote and outside the quotes when it's not part of the quote.

You know it's a stupid rule because even in American English, every other punctuation mark follows the aforementioned logic.

Your example is further complicated by the varied and inconsistent style rules around punctuation after lists indicated by a colon. FWIW in that specific case I would insist on leaving the period out entirely of the quotation marks, because it's clearly a technical reference which uses the quotation marks to denote said reference. Including the period in that case would literally cause inaccuracy.

Accuracy supersedes the rule. Period.

HappylilElf

Yup, I do a lot of writing for my job and the period that ends the sentence always always goes outside of the quotation marks unless it's part of what I'm advising them to do because the quotation marks are specifically being used to isolate the correct information.

So it would read something like: Please note that this field is used for X. Per the research notes please update this field to "Thing This Field Should Reflect".

Lilnoobs

APA requires punctuation outside the "", while MLA inside. It's a style question.

BlazeFire

This always seemed to me like a style that came about due to limitations of printing equipment.

kime

Huh, I learned that it normally went in the quotations, but there was an exception. I forget what that was, though. I always like putting them out because I don't like including things that are not supposed to be quoted in the quotation marks, but it looks kinda funny to me even still :P

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

part of the issue here too is that grammar rules have not really kept up with technology; like oh hey maybe we actually don't want a random period inside the quotation, since a random period can affect how the computer reads a filename?

(some withered MLA official is surely struggling to understand two or more parts of that sentence)

Inquisitor77

See also: double spaces after a period due to monospace limitations for typesetting (e.g., typewriters all used the same amount of horizontal space for every letter)

Many things people associate with "grammar" are in actuality not related to grammar at all, but rather style or technology requirements. For example, the Modern Language Association is known for its MLA Handbook and MLA Style Manual. People have referred to these documents as "standards" for writing, but they aren't intended to be definitive rules for grammar. Rather, they are intended to be used specifically for scholarly works in the liberal arts and literature - to standardize their submission and publication. This is made apparent when you see their full titles: the MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Paper and the MLA Style Manual and Guide to Scholarly Publishing.

These documents were used as a proxy by English and literature teachers across the country to teach their students "how to write", under the assumption that if something is good enough for "real writers" then it should be good enough for high school and college students.

If you study a specific field, you will quickly find that all of them have their own style and publishing guidelines specific to their own peculiarities and needs. The similarly well-known and often-used Chicago Manual of Style is specific to publications and journals, rather than literature. The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers have their own "IEEE style" which is specific to technical papers related to fields such as computer science. Students of psychology will be familiar with the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, a.k.a. the "APA style".

Jebus314

The only time I’ve ever referenced style manuals was for how to format like very specific technical things. Like citations. Or equation numbering. I had no idea they also specified rules on grammar/punctuation/whatever.

Of course now that I am aware of this I suppose I will have to immediately pick a style that I can argue endlessly about being superior to all others.

Fiendishrabbit

Weirdly (or maybe not so weirdly) Oxford system has the rule that if the citation doesn't end with a punctuation, then the punctuation is outside the quotation marks. But if the quoted sentence has a punctuation, then the punctuation go inside quotation marks and you don't have to add an additinal punctuation outside it (unless it's a questionmark or exclaimation).

Examples
'Marvelous,' he said, 'so that's how you do it.'
(since the quote ends on a punctuation, no punctuation follows)

And then she had the nerve to ask me 'What on earth are you doing?'!
(Exclamation mark follows because the quotation is a question but the sentence itself is an exclamation)

Hevach

When a certain level of technical exactness is required, like the file name example, rather than quotes, if at all possible use formatting to distinguish so no ambiguity is left. A popular thing with 80s/90s computer manuals and texts was to use a DOS looking font for commands or file names, but italics or bold can work, too:

Your file name should follow the typical structure: Description_Date_Name

Jebus314

Hevach wrote: »

When a certain level of technical exactness is required, like the file name example, rather than quotes, if at all possible use formatting to distinguish so no ambiguity is left. A popular thing with 80s/90s computer manuals and texts was to use a DOS looking font for commands or file names, but italics or bold can work, too:

Your file name should follow the typical structure: Description_Date_Name

I dunno. I feel like that still leaves ambiguity surrounding the punctuation.

Your file name should follow the typical structure: Description_Date_Name.

Your file name should follow the typical structure: Description_Date_Name.

Both sentences look the same. Is the period part of the naming convention or not?

Elvenshae

Why are you adding a period?

Jebus314

Elvenshae wrote: »

Why are you adding a period?

To indicate the end of a sentence?

Hevach

I didn't leave that period out by accident. Nothing ambiguous should be allowed to touch technical text.

If you absolutely insist on having periods at every chain of words entirely offset the technically specific text.

Your file name should follow the typical structure:

Description_Date_Name.

(The forums code brackets aren't perfect since they add line numbers but this would presumably be being made in a more flexible editor)

kime

So you can't give a name suggestion as part of a paragraph/longer text?