[Magic The Gathering Arena] get your Mutant Scute Swarm on before the ban!

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  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Ok. I don't get it, and it doesn't work.

    It seems dumb that X is as chosen and part of CMC when the spell is on the stack, but adjustments to the cost are not part of the CMC on the stack.

    CMC is just the total amount of mana printed on the card regardless of color/type. 3WWW, 4BB, 4(u/r)(u/r), and 5G all are the same CMC (in this case 6) but wildly different mana costs. If something reduced the cost of your white spells by 1, Planar Cleansing would still have a CMC of 6 even though you only had to pay 2WWW to actually cast it.

    Nah.
    It should be 2WWW CMC on the stack and the MTG rules people are having X and inviolate CMC both ways.
    But this has little to do with game, and more just my distaste for the illogic behind it all.

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  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    What's illogical about CMC being fixed?

    It's a thing that's visible and printed on the card. Power and toughness are too, sure, and they can go up and down--but that's different. The cost to play a spell can change but the CMC never can, because permanents are a thing, and spells that affect permanents based on their converted mana cost are a thing. What, are you supposed to remember "Okay I paid 3 mana for this Heliod's Punishment even though the casting cost in the corner is 2, so if it's targeted by a spell dependent on mana cost it can only be affected if that spell can affect cards with 3 mana cost" for the rest of the game?

    (In fairness, Arena would probably keep track of that for you if that were the way it worked, but I think CMC as a mechanic was invented back in the days of Mercadian Masques, when Arena wasn't even a twinkle in anyone's eye.)

    Cards like, say, Blast Zone simply couldn't exist if converted mana cost wasn't fixed.

  • VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Ok. I don't get it, and it doesn't work.

    It seems dumb that X is as chosen and part of CMC when the spell is on the stack, but adjustments to the cost are not part of the CMC on the stack.

    CMC is just the total amount of mana printed on the card regardless of color/type. 3WWW, 4BB, 4(u/r)(u/r), and 5G all are the same CMC (in this case 6) but wildly different mana costs. If something reduced the cost of your white spells by 1, Planar Cleansing would still have a CMC of 6 even though you only had to pay 2WWW to actually cast it.

    Nah.
    It should be 2WWW CMC on the stack and the MTG rules people are having X and inviolate CMC both ways.
    But this has little to do with game, and more just my distaste for the illogic behind it all.

    You want to buy an item that has an MSRP of $10.

    You have a coupon that gives you $1 off, so you pay only $9.

    What is the MSRP of that item now?

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  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    I was about to ask what the CMC of a Drain Life for ten would be, but I looked it up and apparently the Oracle text erratas it to an X-based spell even though it wasn't printed like one.

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  • General_ArmchairGeneral_Armchair Registered User regular
    There is a distinction between spells and cards. In most zones the cards in your deck are just cards. In all of those areas X is undefined, so it is treated as zero. Your cards are only considered to be spells when they are on the stack as part of the casting process. When you cast the spell, X is defined as part of the payment process. That's why X is a value while on the stack but zero elsewhere. A spell on the stack is the only place where X has even been defined to a value that you can perform arithmetic with.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Wyvern wrote: »
    I was about to ask what the CMC of a Drain Life for ten would be, but I looked it up and apparently the Oracle text erratas it to an X-based spell even though it wasn't printed like one.

    sometimes it was!
    6995dfc3-7365-408f-aeb4-9a2963f513a0.jpg?1562917082

    if you like that, check out this crazy garbage
    3ea1a073-698a-4d91-81fd-b2c7f5c0da00.jpg?1562908013

    ShadowenVyolynceArmoroc
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited June 14
    Shadowen wrote: »
    What's illogical about CMC being fixed?
    That it's not with X
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    Ok. I don't get it, and it doesn't work.

    It seems dumb that X is as chosen and part of CMC when the spell is on the stack, but adjustments to the cost are not part of the CMC on the stack.

    CMC is just the total amount of mana printed on the card regardless of color/type. 3WWW, 4BB, 4(u/r)(u/r), and 5G all are the same CMC (in this case 6) but wildly different mana costs. If something reduced the cost of your white spells by 1, Planar Cleansing would still have a CMC of 6 even though you only had to pay 2WWW to actually cast it.

    Nah.
    It should be 2WWW CMC on the stack and the MTG rules people are having X and inviolate CMC both ways.
    But this has little to do with game, and more just my distaste for the illogic behind it all.

    You want to buy an item that has an MSRP of $10.

    You have a coupon that gives you $1 off, so you pay only $9.

    What is the MSRP of that item now?

    You buy a Humble bundle.
    What is the MSRP of that bundle and why is that wrong?

    discrider on
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  • General_ArmchairGeneral_Armchair Registered User regular
    edited June 14
    Let me try again. CMC is ALWAYS what's printed on the card. The point of confusion is whether or not X has a defined value for use in that arithmetic.

    Consider a card with a casting cost of X1U. To determine the CMC, you are always going to add X plus the generic cost plus the colored cost. So, in your hand, the CMC is determined like the following:
    X (value is undefined, so is treated as 0) + 1 generic mana + 1 blue mana = a CMC of 2
    0+1+1=2
    

    However, when you cast the spell with an X value of 2, then the math works out like this.
    X (value was defined as 2 when cast) + 1 generic mana + 1 blue mana = a CMC of 4
    2+1+1=4
    

    General_Armchair on
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  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    Ugh. Shadowspear full art is on sale but only purchasable with gems. I would have been willing to drop the 1000g+ on it since I play the card so much, but I'm not using gems.

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    On the plus side: free gold in the store today.

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    i wonder what the chances are wilderness rec gets slammed in the next round of bans. temur rec being like 80% of the top 8 isnt going to look well.

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  • SproutSprout Registered User regular
    I think at this point you just wait for it to rotate out in September.

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    aoitwfya0nms.jpg
    mvjkd2jmq1rt.jpg

    stupid errata...

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  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    I just got stomped in ranked by a RUG cycling deck that uses Unpredictable Cyclone and Genesis Ultimatum to get all kinds of fatties on the board. It was pretty nuts.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited June 18
    I just did a thing in quick draft:
    xkwto353s4kd.png
    Am at 5-2 for pirate treasure deck, because I had to spend coins sometime.
    Basically lucky I drew into Vraska there.

    I'm not sure why I got matched with #515 as a Copper, but I guess the matchmaker couldn't find anyone else.
    Must've wrecked his rank though.

    discrider on
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  • BoomerAang SquadBoomerAang Squad Registered User regular
    Currently at Diamond 1, thanks mostly to Historic Ranked being a thing again.

    Sooo close to breaking Mythic for the first time...

    Dark_Side
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Man I hate board sweeps.
    As far as I can tell, I either don't play creature decks, or I play blue to play negate.

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  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Or you play enough creatures to force them to use their boardwipe and hold the rest in your hand until after.

  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Or good enough creatures than any one or two is enough to win a game.

  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited June 18
    Mugsley wrote: »
    I just got stomped in ranked by a RUG cycling deck that uses Unpredictable Cyclone and Genesis Ultimatum to get all kinds of fatties on the board. It was pretty nuts.

    I get so salty at these decks that surprise me out of nowhere, but then I realize it's good to have variety and interesting decks that aren't all Temur Rec tryhards.

    Dark_Side on
  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    It was a bit refreshing, ngl. I played out the match just to see how far the deck would go. The first deck I've played againsg in a LONG time that didn't run counterspells despite having blue mana.

    Dark_Side
  • BoomerAang SquadBoomerAang Squad Registered User regular
    There was an Emergent Ultimatum deck that got Omniscience, Planewide Celebration, and Liliana. Too bad I didn't RTC and gave them Omniscience by mistake.

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited June 18
    playing this in Historic and man is it fun. Way more verity in the types of decks in that format.
    3ncy1am3yfgw.jpg
    Although i think i'll replace that Cavalier with that Mill-Fish person. I already got Jase and Finale of Devastation in the side board but having some main board stuff would be good.

    DanHibiki on
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Or you play enough creatures to force them to use their boardwipe and hold the rest in your hand until after.
    admanb wrote: »
    Or good enough creatures than any one or two is enough to win a game.

    Which both seem to fall to next turn's planeswalker or otherwise high cost repeatable removal/immense threat or even just spot removal that wouldn't be a problem if I had a board, but instead have whatever I could play.

    Just seems like these decks don't want to play, and instead the game is a blow out one way or the other by turn five.
    Even if I've held creatures/only playing good things.

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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    edited June 18
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Or you play enough creatures to force them to use their boardwipe and hold the rest in your hand until after.

    yeah

    an important concept in MTG is the clock: how many turns until someone loses given the current boardstate?

    If playing a creature doesn't advance the clock, either giving you more turns or giving the opponent less, it's generally better to hold it until it can.

    edit: and fractional turns explicitly do not count

    Elldren on
    fuck gendered marketing
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Or you play enough creatures to force them to use their boardwipe and hold the rest in your hand until after.
    admanb wrote: »
    Or good enough creatures than any one or two is enough to win a game.

    Which both seem to fall to next turn's planeswalker or otherwise high cost repeatable removal/immense threat or even just spot removal that wouldn't be a problem if I had a board, but instead have whatever I could play.

    Just seems like these decks don't want to play, and instead the game is a blow out one way or the other by turn five.
    Even if I've held creatures/only playing good things.

    I agree. Control decks are the worst.

    fuck gendered marketing
  • chamberlainchamberlain Registered User regular
    Oh shit, platinum 2 with my Rakdos' dirty sac deck. High as I have ever been.

    This desk has so many evil laugh moments.

    Turn 2: Priest of the forgotten Gods
    Turn 3: Chandra (that makes 2 tokens for free)

    Them - scoop
    Me - evil laugh

  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    I have this Red all spells deck that kinda works. I threw it together on a whim but it still needs tweaking. It was mostly on a lark; it's not very viable.

    But yeah, I've been leaning hard toward aggr

  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    What's the break-even on Mastery Pass again? Level 30 or Level40?

  • FiskebentFiskebent Registered User regular
    edited June 20
    That depends on how much you value the things in the pass.

    If you put a gem value on packs, gold and draft tokens, you break even at around rank 40. Then you will have gotten 10 packs, 2000 gold, 400 gems and a draft token. The token represents a lot of the value at 1500 gems.

    If you value card skins, the pet, random mythics, sleeves (the song of creation sleeve at rank 70 is pretty sweet, imo), the Lukka avatar etc., you break even earlier.

    For me, personally, I don't think I would value the packs at 200 gems. They're all from older sets where I have the rares I want. So if I were to buy packs with gems, I would never buy the ones you get from the mastery pass.

    Fiskebent on
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  • DrascinDrascin Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Or you play enough creatures to force them to use their boardwipe and hold the rest in your hand until after.
    admanb wrote: »
    Or good enough creatures than any one or two is enough to win a game.

    Which both seem to fall to next turn's planeswalker or otherwise high cost repeatable removal/immense threat or even just spot removal that wouldn't be a problem if I had a board, but instead have whatever I could play.

    Just seems like these decks don't want to play, and instead the game is a blow out one way or the other by turn five.
    Even if I've held creatures/only playing good things.

    I do meet the occasional deck where I'm like "bro. Bro what is your actual winning plan here. You have played zero cards in the entire game that are not removal of some stripe. Is your win condition hitting me ten times with a Murderous Rider or what."

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  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    Fiskebent wrote: »
    That depends on how much you value the things in the pass.

    If you put a gem value on packs, gold and draft tokens, you break even at around rank 40. Then you will have gotten 10 packs, 2000 gold, 400 gems and a draft token. The token represents a lot of the value at 1500 gems.

    If you value card skins, the pet, random mythics, sleeves (the song of creation sleeve at rank 70 is pretty sweet, imo), the Lukka avatar etc., you break even earlier.

    For me, personally, I don't think I would value the packs at 200 gems. They're all from older sets where I have the rares I want. So if I were to buy packs with gems, I would never buy the ones you get from the mastery pass.

    I care little for old packs as well. I consider them mostly useful for wildcards and the occasional mythic.

    I do put some value on the pet and some of the sleeves but I won't hit 70 before things roll over. (I ended up buying the pass at the end of Theros and I *think* I hit about Level 42....is there a way to check?)

    I'm actually debating dropping the money on M21 packs as a way to develop a solid base of cards without burning wildcards. This will be my first core set in Arena. The debate portion is that I'm planning to draft a bunch in Core for personal experience, so I'll likely get a good portion of the set that way.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Drascin wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Or you play enough creatures to force them to use their boardwipe and hold the rest in your hand until after.
    admanb wrote: »
    Or good enough creatures than any one or two is enough to win a game.

    Which both seem to fall to next turn's planeswalker or otherwise high cost repeatable removal/immense threat or even just spot removal that wouldn't be a problem if I had a board, but instead have whatever I could play.

    Just seems like these decks don't want to play, and instead the game is a blow out one way or the other by turn five.
    Even if I've held creatures/only playing good things.

    I do meet the occasional deck where I'm like "bro. Bro what is your actual winning plan here. You have played zero cards in the entire game that are not removal of some stripe. Is your win condition hitting me ten times with a Murderous Rider or what."

    Then I run into a Gary deck with no removal (or at least none aside the one Rider), and the gameplan becomes 'turn all his creatures into 0 power or less creatures (Dead Weight/Mire) so my lifelinkers can attack with impunity to survive, in spite of looming Garies. Until I can attach two glitters and a shadowspear on my Lurrus in one turn, and whoops 28 power coming across'.

    That was a fun match.

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  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited June 21
    Drascin wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Or you play enough creatures to force them to use their boardwipe and hold the rest in your hand until after.
    admanb wrote: »
    Or good enough creatures than any one or two is enough to win a game.

    Which both seem to fall to next turn's planeswalker or otherwise high cost repeatable removal/immense threat or even just spot removal that wouldn't be a problem if I had a board, but instead have whatever I could play.

    Just seems like these decks don't want to play, and instead the game is a blow out one way or the other by turn five.
    Even if I've held creatures/only playing good things.

    I do meet the occasional deck where I'm like "bro. Bro what is your actual winning plan here. You have played zero cards in the entire game that are not removal of some stripe. Is your win condition hitting me ten times with a Murderous Rider or what."

    I played one of those yesterday. Every single card was either removal, or some way to draw more removal, or some way to dig for removal from the graveyard. The opponent finally put down an Ominous Seas which appeared be their actual win condition, but they didn't even get it down until late in the game. Meanwhile I'm just playing a single cheap flyer every turn, letting him remove it, rinse and repeat until he ran out of draw.

    I think the actual win condition in the B01 queue with that deck is annoying the opponent so much they scoop, because I could have probably won 3 games in the time it took to win that one.

    Dark_Side on
  • DrascinDrascin Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Or you play enough creatures to force them to use their boardwipe and hold the rest in your hand until after.
    admanb wrote: »
    Or good enough creatures than any one or two is enough to win a game.

    Which both seem to fall to next turn's planeswalker or otherwise high cost repeatable removal/immense threat or even just spot removal that wouldn't be a problem if I had a board, but instead have whatever I could play.

    Just seems like these decks don't want to play, and instead the game is a blow out one way or the other by turn five.
    Even if I've held creatures/only playing good things.

    I do meet the occasional deck where I'm like "bro. Bro what is your actual winning plan here. You have played zero cards in the entire game that are not removal of some stripe. Is your win condition hitting me ten times with a Murderous Rider or what."

    I played one of those yesterday. Every single card was either removal, or some way to draw more removal, or some way to dig for removal from the graveyard. The opponent finally put down an Ominous Seas which appeared be their actual win condition, but they didn't even get it down until late in the game. Meanwhile I'm just playing a single cheap flyer every turn, letting him remove it, rinse and repeat until he ran out of draw.

    I think the actual win condition in the B01 queue with that deck is annoying the opponent so much they scoop, because I could have probably won 3 games in the time it took to win that one.

    The usual form I run into seems to have Nicol Bolas Dragon God as their win condition. Everything else is removal. And Nicol Bolas is also removal, of course.

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  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    I'll see what info I can pull from the Untapped.gg log but I went up against a Boros Lifegain deck that was interesting. It of course had Winota, and Helios. The rest was mostly just dudes, but I'm wondering if I can throw something similar together

  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    edited June 21
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    playing this in Historic and man is it fun. Way more verity in the types of decks in that format.
    3ncy1am3yfgw.jpg
    Although i think i'll replace that Cavalier with that Mill-Fish person. I already got Jase and Finale of Devastation in the side board but having some main board stuff would be good.

    ZbeqXn9.png

    I've been playing this deck from MTGGoldfish a lot, and it's pure gas. It's a solid UW control deck, but the ability to use Nars3t to dig for and then exile an opponents hand with Induced Amnesia is just beautiful. It both destroys opposing control decks (since they are handless T4) and punishes midrange Uro/Krasis based reloads because you can drop a T6 Narset into Amnesia and get rid of all the card advantage they built up.

    Not shown because my land list is too long are 3 temples, 1 blast zone, 4 fabled passage.

    milski on
    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited June 21
    I managed to get to level 80 on the mastery. While I certainly feel I got my money's worth, I wasn't such a fan of having to play every single day to grind dailies to even have a chance at completing the pass before the deadline. I was even less of a fan of the times I'd get into a good mode and wanted to play for awhile, only to find that once those dailies were done, XP gain was straight up miserly/insulting.

    Dark_Side on
    Fiskebent
  • BoomerAang SquadBoomerAang Squad Registered User regular
    edited June 21
    Took a lot of grinding to get there, but I finally made it. Robbed a Petty Theft to bounce their Archon and put them to lethal.

    j3wbhgkyqpd7.jpg
    vo1a9t5b01f1.jpg
    yryd2fb29ipy.jpg

    BoomerAang Squad on
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  • milskimilski UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ UNTZ Registered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    I managed to get to level 80 on the mastery. While I certainly feel I got my money's worth, I wasn't such a fan of having to play every single day to grind dailies to even have a chance at completing the pass before the deadline. I was even less of a fan of the times I'd get into a good mode and wanted to play for awhile, only to find that once those dailies were done, XP gain was straight up miserly/insulting.

    I'm pretty sure I'm like, level 95 and definitely missed days when I got engrossed in other games.

    You can't write me off like that! You're just a voice, pal! You don't know a DAMN THING ABOUT RACING!!
    Ketar
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