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The [ATLA/Korra] thread is spoiler-tagged, and you gotta deal with it!

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  • QuantumTurkQuantumTurk Registered User regular
    Korra is deeply flawed due to the issues surrounding it's making but gosh it's still got a lot of really good stuff in there.

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  • Desert LeviathanDesert Leviathan Registered User regular
    LoK's production got jerked around with so much, I don't think the writers ever knew from one minute to the next what actual length of show they were going to get to tell stories in, and it shows through the entire run of the series. Including season 3, which suffered from about 40% more secondary characters than it needed, because they were trying to cram everyone's arc in at once out of uncertainty that they'd get a chance to get to them all otherwise.

    Realizing lately that I don't really trust or respect basically any of the moderators here. So, good luck with life, friends! Hit me up on Twitter @DesertLeviathan
  • Mx. QuillMx. Quill I now prefer "Myr. Quill", actually... {They/Them}Registered User regular
    Now everyone can experience Vacation Tenzin.

    Lord Palington
  • QuantumTurkQuantumTurk Registered User regular
    And it's not a spoiler to just say that if you get far enough, Henry Rollins shows up!

  • SixshotStrikerSixshotStriker Registered User regular
    IIRC the production of Korra was as follows:

    Season 1 was built as a 12 episode mini. Additional seasons were announced after 1 was at least halfway through production.

    Season 2 was throw anything and everything at the wall and see what sticks. The end result is pretty good all things considered.

    Season 3 and 4 were negotiated at the same time so production knew what they were working with. This did not stop someone (or maybe all of Nick execs) screwing the show insofar as time slots.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    They got one season. Then they got one more season, and they had a different animation studio working on it (until they got the episodes back from them and they were so subpar that they brought Studio Mir back for the back third).

    Seasons 3 and 4 are stronger than 2 because they're actually made figuring they had all those episodes to work with - and even then the budget got slashed at the last minute by Nickelodeon.

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  • Mx. QuillMx. Quill I now prefer "Myr. Quill", actually... {They/Them}Registered User regular
    Not to mention them shoving the latter 2/3s of Book 3 to be online only after an episode leaked in Spanish I believe.

  • ph blakeph blake Registered User regular
    edited July 2020
    Also the 2 episodes that got cut from 4's episode order midway through production.

    Basically Nick really loved fucking with that show

    Edit: Nevermind I looked it up, it was a budget cut that forced a planned episode to become a clip show recap instead. Point still stands, I think

    ph blake on
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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    The worst part of this is that Nick played sabotage with both shows, yet they're still very popular. So in Nick executive minds, maybe they're geniuses for producing such great and lasting TV instead of incompetent morons who stunted the growth and impact of all of it.

    Fencingsaxvalhalla130
  • QuantumTurkQuantumTurk Registered User regular
    Supposedly one of the big issues was that the toys weren't expected to sell, and cartoon execs are still hyper focused on selling toys. So atla was too cute and not edgy enough and then obviously Korra won't sell because girl. Which if I remember right was super wrong anyway with the little bits of merch they did manage to make being devoured with no follow up.

    Fencingsax
  • PaperLuigi44PaperLuigi44 My amazement is at maximum capacity. Registered User regular
    That reminds me of the merch joke from TLA, which is an all-timer

    DarkPrimus
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Bedigunz wrote: »
    Credit where credit is due, but Nickelodeon lets creators try some off the wall and interesting stuff (Avatar, TMNT, Spongebob, Victorious, iCarly, etc.).

    Unfortunately they absolutely shit the bed on some of these IP as they get bigger, where I think Netflix could do a better job in handling them.

    Just gonna leave Invader Zim out of the bugfuck pile huh :P

    I would love to hear the meeting at Nick where they decided to give the guy who wrote "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac" a show.
    I mean, that sounds like it would be a fascinating discussion to overhear.

    And, on the most predictable plot twist ever, that guy got tired of being told to tone it down since is a children's channel so he quit and then made a comic about, among other things, an artist clashing with executive figures.

    And I liked Invader Zim.

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited July 2020
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Bedigunz wrote: »
    Credit where credit is due, but Nickelodeon lets creators try some off the wall and interesting stuff (Avatar, TMNT, Spongebob, Victorious, iCarly, etc.).

    Unfortunately they absolutely shit the bed on some of these IP as they get bigger, where I think Netflix could do a better job in handling them.

    Just gonna leave Invader Zim out of the bugfuck pile huh :P

    I would love to hear the meeting at Nick where they decided to give the guy who wrote "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac" a show.
    I mean, that sounds like it would be a fascinating discussion to overhear.

    And, on the most predictable plot twist ever, that guy got tired of being told to tone it down since is a children's channel so he quit and then made a comic about, among other things, an artist clashing with executive figures.

    And I liked Invader Zim.

    One thing.

    He didn’t quit. The show was cancelled with several episodes still in production.

    nightmarenny on
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  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    I just dinished ATLA and am moving on to Korra this weekend at work.

    It is so good. I darned near cried when
    Zuko left Iroh, and actually cried when they reunited.

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  • SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    I finished the series a couple days ago.
    It's so good.
    Iroh is the GOAT.

    Zuko's whole arc is amazing. Best villain-to-hero story I can remember.

    I loved seeing Katara grow into a total badass.

    Wish there was more Mai and Ty Lee, but happy with how their stories played out.

    I do have a couple issues through...
    I can't believe Zuko didn't get a loyalty mission with Toph.
    The others were some of the best episodes of the series and she deserved that extra chunk of development.

    also
    I don't think the Aang/Katara stuff works at all, and ending the series on a shot of them making out was certainly a choice.

    cB557
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    I finished this yesterday morning. I think my power rankings would remain roughly the same as they were at the end of season 2 (which are roughly in line with my season 1 rankings already) - Aang did grow on me over the course of the series, but he was still the worst because every other character also grew on me as much if not more.

    Finale stuff
    I didn't love the whole "Aang has a moral quandary over killing a genocidal tyrant" plotline. Like, it was well established that he was a pacifist by nature, it didn't not make sense or anything, but the resolution being that he'll just find a totally new way to do things that nobody has ever done before was... disappointing. Especially with the totally new way being a seed planted by an out of left field mystical animal.

    I did appreciate that as a part of that plot you had several other characters who were entirely cool with the idea of killing him because they hadn't been raised as pacifists (and also Kyoshi acknowledging that letting someone die by inaction is still killing someone was nice in that too).

    And yeah, Aang/Katara is aggressively fine - it's something they've been foreshadowing since the very beginning, although it did feel like it slacked up a bit in season 3, so I knew it was going to happen, but I really couldn't be bothered to actually care about it.

    Also Zuko just becoming a new king but good is kind of... I mean, it's what I would expect, whatever, I've read The Book of the Courtier, I know how this works. But it seems a bit reductionist and too neat a bow to tie on to a massively oppressive antagonist force. Like, cutting off the head is important, but there are some other limbs that did serious damage while the head was still intact as well.

    cB557
  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    I think those are all valid criticisms BUT

    a) I don't think a kid's show, however high-quality, is gonna dig in to "How do you root out the lingering vestiges of fascism"

    b) I think your issues with Aang's solution prime you quite well for Korra

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    I am very interested to potentially watch Korra soon

    Part of my reason for watching Avatar was my partner's fondness for it - she watched it when it aired, has seen the whole thing multiple times, etc

    But she's never actually watched all of Korra, so our watching that would be new stuff for both us after the first or second season I believe

  • MorivethMoriveth BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWNRegistered User regular
    Re: Zuko
    From what I've read it seems like the comics and stuff they released that take place after ATLA show that it's not quite as easy for him to just take ever and everything's fine. He has a lot of shit to deal with.

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  • Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    I am very interested to potentially watch Korra soon

    Part of my reason for watching Avatar was my partner's fondness for it - she watched it when it aired, has seen the whole thing multiple times, etc

    But she's never actually watched all of Korra, so our watching that would be new stuff for both us after the first or second season I believe

    Good news then, as Korra is landing on US Netflix August 14.

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  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    me 'n my girlfriend finished going through book 1 of korra a few weeks ago

    it's... just as muddled and frustrating as i remembered it being
    also everything else aside the ending just sucks eggs

    like i know they didn't know they were getting a season 2 when they wrote it, but even so it should've just ended with Aang appearing to comfort Korra. Giving her her bending back, letting her effortlessly restore everyone's bending, and having her get with mako at the 11th hour all feels so rushed, and it's squandering so many fun storytelling hooks

    Shorty
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I think those are all valid criticisms BUT

    a) I don't think a kid's show, however high-quality, is gonna dig in to "How do you root out the lingering vestiges of fascism"

    b) I think your issues with Aang's solution prime you quite well for Korra

    Yeah one of the good things about Korra is it makes it very clear that while Aang was an excellent Airbender, he (and his friends) were not great at other stuff that is just as important.

  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    me 'n my girlfriend finished going through book 1 of korra a few weeks ago

    it's... just as muddled and frustrating as i remembered it being
    also everything else aside the ending just sucks eggs

    like i know they didn't know they were getting a season 2 when they wrote it, but even so it should've just ended with Aang appearing to comfort Korra. Giving her her bending back, letting her effortlessly restore everyone's bending, and having her get with mako at the 11th hour all feels so rushed, and it's squandering so many fun storytelling hooks
    they spend like half the next season trying to roll back some of that stuff in a way that definitely helps make it such a mess

  • SixshotStrikerSixshotStriker Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Random thought on Korra
    Is it weird that Toph of all people became a cop? It's been a long time since I watched the original series but I remember her being strongly anti-authority. The primary examples being against her parent's authority and after Lake Laogai, she was 110% done with Ba Sing Sei. It just seems weird that after that, as an adult, she veered into pro-authority.

    When she showed up again in Book 4, that felt far more in line with her character.

    SixshotStriker on
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Random thought on Korra
    Is it weird that Toph of all people became a cop? It's been a long time since I watched the original series but I remember her being strongly anti-authority. The primary examples being against her parent's authority and after Lake Laogai, she was 110% done with Ba Sing Sei. It just seems weird that after that, as an adult, she veered into pro-authority.

    When she showed up again in Book 4, that felt far more in line with her character.
    Toph’s anti-authority was specifically other people not telling her what she could or couldn’t do.

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  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    Random thought on Korra
    Is it weird that Toph of all people became a cop? It's been a long time since I watched the original series but I remember her being strongly anti-authority. The primary examples being against her parent's authority and after Lake Laogai, she was 110% done with Ba Sing Sei. It just seems weird that after that, as an adult, she veered into pro-authority.

    When she showed up again in Book 4, that felt far more in line with her character.
    It felt to me, reinforced by her Book 4 appearance, that she was effectively forced into the role despite it not being a good fit for her.

    3cl1ps3TheBlackWind
  • SixshotStrikerSixshotStriker Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    Random thought on Korra
    Is it weird that Toph of all people became a cop? It's been a long time since I watched the original series but I remember her being strongly anti-authority. The primary examples being against her parent's authority and after Lake Laogai, she was 110% done with Ba Sing Sei. It just seems weird that after that, as an adult, she veered into pro-authority.

    When she showed up again in Book 4, that felt far more in line with her character.
    It felt to me, reinforced by her Book 4 appearance, that she was effectively forced into the role despite it not being a good fit for her.

    Rewatched the parts of book 4 where this happens. This is a good take.

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    me 'n my girlfriend finished going through book 1 of korra a few weeks ago

    it's... just as muddled and frustrating as i remembered it being
    also everything else aside the ending just sucks eggs

    like i know they didn't know they were getting a season 2 when they wrote it, but even so it should've just ended with Aang appearing to comfort Korra. Giving her her bending back, letting her effortlessly restore everyone's bending, and having her get with mako at the 11th hour all feels so rushed, and it's squandering so many fun storytelling hooks

    I think the worst part of season 1
    Is just how packed full of ideas it is. So many wasted settings and plots being shoved desperately into one season.

    Ok no it’s the farting children but other than that.

    Quire.jpg
  • DrascinDrascin Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Well, I had watched a bunch of ATLA back ages ago, but kinda fell off around the beginning of Season 3, so I figured might as well finish it.
    You know, when people spent so much time bellyaching about the ending, I expected it to be a total mess.

    But it's... okay? A twelve year old raised as a pacifistic idealist has trouble choosing to do the lesser evil and throwing his culture under the bus, tries to find a different way, succeeds because, as it turns out, there IS another way, but nobody ever really had the kind of mindset needed for it, given to him by the thing that had been stated to have inspired bending itself, after spending half a dozen episodes desperately looking for it. As Deus Ex Machina go, that feels like a reasonable amount of set up.

    Like, the Dragon Turtle does not feel like any more asspull than the Dragons a few episodes earlier. Hell, it's less so - at least we've heard the Dragon Turtles mentioned with relation to the origins of bending before the episode where the Dragon Turtle appears. I'm not sure anyone actually mentioned dragons being the badgermole equivalent for firebending before Aang and Zuko go on their loyalty mission and rediscover a hidden civilization with a completely different way to firebend and now Aang can firebend perfectly because the comet is here and we need to get this shit moving.

    Other than that... Iroh was definitely a highlight of the season, even if he didn't get a ton of screentime. Zuko's turn was pretty well done, and honestly feel that Mai and Ty Lee's was shortchanged. I also appreciated that they let everyone show their hangups not just in their very special episodes, but in general - Katara and Sokka in particular felt like much better rounded characters than they'd been, but Toph and Aang also get their own little neuroses without needing full episodes about it. Sokka could have used a bit less Waspinator to him at points, but still.

    Overall, pretty good stuff. Definitely enjoyable.

    Drascin on
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  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    I've definitely disliked endings similar to ATLA's but i think the show does a few important things to make it a really strong finish.
    The show is very upfront about the fact that killing the fire lord isn't morally wrong in a universal sense. In fact, every character in the show other than Aang thinks it's the right thing to do, even the previous air nomad avatar. It's only wrong for Aang to kill him. It's not just that Aang's a pacifist, but that he's the last surviving member of a pacifistic culture that the Fire Lord's grandfather destroyed. Ozai only respects brute force, and thinks the strongest murderer deserves to rule the world. Aang not only stops him from committing another genocide, he does it in a way that honors the culture that Ozai's family and ideology eradicated. Ozai thinks the Air Nomads were weaklings who didn't have a place in the world, and Aang demonstrates that he's wrong. The mechanism by which he does that is a little deus ex machina-y, but I don't accept the idea that that's inherently a bad thing, especially because all the lion-turtle does is create a means by which the philosophical argument between the two characters gets literalized. Aang doesn't win because the Lion Turtle unlocked his energy bending chakra or whatever, he wins because he's unbendable, because his heart is ultimately stronger than Ozai's.

    The show also avoids the very frustrating trope of "kill the minions but spare the leader." Aang very pointedly never kills anyone except for when he's in the Avatar State, which is part of why the Avatar State makes him feel so scared and ashamed. This is a little loosey-goosey in the sense that it's an action cartoon, and some of the moves that Aang pulls would definitely kill someone in real life (being thrown overboard during a naval battle is not the best thing to have happen to you), but the show is pretty clear that those are meant to be taken as nonlethal takedowns. Aang fights with the bare minimum of violence necessary, and by the time it's even possible to kill the Fire Lord there's no longer any real need to.

    If I have a nitpick with the ending, it's that energy-bending is really kind of a fucked up thing to do to a person. I'm not shedding any tears about Ozai's soul being violated, but introducing the concept so late in the game makes it so there's no time to really explore the concept at all. BUT, honestly that's a criticism I point at Korra way more than I do at ATLA. "Energy bending is fucked up and scary" is one of a couple dozen ideas that Korra Book 1 flirts with exploring and then totally fumbles.

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    I've definitely disliked endings similar to ATLA's but i think the show does a few important things to make it a really strong finish.
    The show is very upfront about the fact that killing the fire lord isn't morally wrong in a universal sense. In fact, every character in the show other than Aang thinks it's the right thing to do, even the previous air nomad avatar. It's only wrong for Aang to kill him. It's not just that Aang's a pacifist, but that he's the last surviving member of a pacifistic culture that the Fire Lord's grandfather destroyed. Ozai only respects brute force, and thinks the strongest murderer deserves to rule the world. Aang not only stops him from committing another genocide, he does it in a way that honors the culture that Ozai's family and ideology eradicated. Ozai thinks the Air Nomads were weaklings who didn't have a place in the world, and Aang demonstrates that he's wrong. The mechanism by which he does that is a little deus ex machina-y, but I don't accept the idea that that's inherently a bad thing, especially because all the lion-turtle does is create a means by which the philosophical argument between the two characters gets literalized. Aang doesn't win because the Lion Turtle unlocked his energy bending chakra or whatever, he wins because he's unbendable, because his heart is ultimately stronger than Ozai's.

    The show also avoids the very frustrating trope of "kill the minions but spare the leader." Aang very pointedly never kills anyone except for when he's in the Avatar State, which is part of why the Avatar State makes him feel so scared and ashamed. This is a little loosey-goosey in the sense that it's an action cartoon, and some of the moves that Aang pulls would definitely kill someone in real life (being thrown overboard during a naval battle is not the best thing to have happen to you), but the show is pretty clear that those are meant to be taken as nonlethal takedowns. Aang fights with the bare minimum of violence necessary, and by the time it's even possible to kill the Fire Lord there's no longer any real need to.

    If I have a nitpick with the ending, it's that energy-bending is really kind of a fucked up thing to do to a person. I'm not shedding any tears about Ozai's soul being violated, but introducing the concept so late in the game makes it so there's no time to really explore the concept at all. BUT, honestly that's a criticism I point at Korra way more than I do at ATLA. "Energy bending is fucked up and scary" is one of a couple dozen ideas that Korra Book 1 flirts with exploring and then totally fumbles.
    I do wish his pacifism had been a bit more actively addressed earlier in the show. Partially because it's a children's cartoon, so of course we don't see anyone dying, and it can be a bit hard to untangle if that's because that's just the way that things work, or because the characters are attempting to actively avoid killing anyone. I think Aang gives off the impression that he doesn't want to kill anyone plenty well, but I wish he had hit a clear moral quandary with killing (and chosen not to kill, obviously) earlier in the show. Not killing a bounty hunter that was sent after him and suffering the consequences or something like that.

    That said, it didn't entirely ruin the show for me or anything. And the fact that other characters were entirely down with killing (with a variety of specific moral arguments towards it) helped that a lot. It was very much presented as Aang's moral quandary, and not an overall question of good and evil.

    And yeah, I probably also don't want a children's TV show to end with its hero compromising his morals in order to (very justifiably) kill a (very bad) dude. I love a downer ending, don't get me wrong, but it has a time and a place.

    Speed Racer
  • BedigunzBedigunz Registered User regular
    I've definitely disliked endings similar to ATLA's but i think the show does a few important things to make it a really strong finish.
    The show is very upfront about the fact that killing the fire lord isn't morally wrong in a universal sense. In fact, every character in the show other than Aang thinks it's the right thing to do, even the previous air nomad avatar. It's only wrong for Aang to kill him. It's not just that Aang's a pacifist, but that he's the last surviving member of a pacifistic culture that the Fire Lord's grandfather destroyed. Ozai only respects brute force, and thinks the strongest murderer deserves to rule the world. Aang not only stops him from committing another genocide, he does it in a way that honors the culture that Ozai's family and ideology eradicated. Ozai thinks the Air Nomads were weaklings who didn't have a place in the world, and Aang demonstrates that he's wrong. The mechanism by which he does that is a little deus ex machina-y, but I don't accept the idea that that's inherently a bad thing, especially because all the lion-turtle does is create a means by which the philosophical argument between the two characters gets literalized. Aang doesn't win because the Lion Turtle unlocked his energy bending chakra or whatever, he wins because he's unbendable, because his heart is ultimately stronger than Ozai's.

    The show also avoids the very frustrating trope of "kill the minions but spare the leader." Aang very pointedly never kills anyone except for when he's in the Avatar State, which is part of why the Avatar State makes him feel so scared and ashamed. This is a little loosey-goosey in the sense that it's an action cartoon, and some of the moves that Aang pulls would definitely kill someone in real life (being thrown overboard during a naval battle is not the best thing to have happen to you), but the show is pretty clear that those are meant to be taken as nonlethal takedowns. Aang fights with the bare minimum of violence necessary, and by the time it's even possible to kill the Fire Lord there's no longer any real need to.

    If I have a nitpick with the ending, it's that energy-bending is really kind of a fucked up thing to do to a person. I'm not shedding any tears about Ozai's soul being violated, but introducing the concept so late in the game makes it so there's no time to really explore the concept at all. BUT, honestly that's a criticism I point at Korra way more than I do at ATLA. "Energy bending is fucked up and scary" is one of a couple dozen ideas that Korra Book 1 flirts with exploring and then totally fumbles.

    ATLA Ending:
    The lion turtle coming in at the 11th hour and introducing a new technique is a little bit of an ass-pull in my opinion. I loved Aang going back to the old Avatars and discussing what to do, but all of a sudden having someone new come and tell you "well actually you could try this" is jarring as hell.

    If the live action show is going to make any changes, the first one I would do is start peppering in the lion turtle mythology in season 1 so when it shows up at the end, it won't come out of left field

    As for Korra S1/S2:
    Handling the moral implications of taking/giving bending would have been a great story. Season 2 could start with Korra giving everyone's bending back, but when a criminal asks for it back, Korra hesitates. It could really speak to the role of the Avatar in the world, and how they are supposed to bring balance.

    You could still keep a lot of the interesting parts of the season (Avatar Wan, Vaatu/Raava, Varick, etc.) and it could still end with opening a portal to the spirit world, but it would be much more interesting than what they ended up doing.

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  • OghulkOghulk Tinychat Janitor TinychatRegistered User regular
    So I just watched ATLA for the first time ever (I had seen the first four episodes multiple times when it first aired)

    What a good show! Like holy shit what a well done show!

    Gonna start Korra when it hits netflix in a few weeks. Pretty excited for that

    Johnny Chopsocky
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Bedigunz wrote: »
    I've definitely disliked endings similar to ATLA's but i think the show does a few important things to make it a really strong finish.
    The show is very upfront about the fact that killing the fire lord isn't morally wrong in a universal sense. In fact, every character in the show other than Aang thinks it's the right thing to do, even the previous air nomad avatar. It's only wrong for Aang to kill him. It's not just that Aang's a pacifist, but that he's the last surviving member of a pacifistic culture that the Fire Lord's grandfather destroyed. Ozai only respects brute force, and thinks the strongest murderer deserves to rule the world. Aang not only stops him from committing another genocide, he does it in a way that honors the culture that Ozai's family and ideology eradicated. Ozai thinks the Air Nomads were weaklings who didn't have a place in the world, and Aang demonstrates that he's wrong. The mechanism by which he does that is a little deus ex machina-y, but I don't accept the idea that that's inherently a bad thing, especially because all the lion-turtle does is create a means by which the philosophical argument between the two characters gets literalized. Aang doesn't win because the Lion Turtle unlocked his energy bending chakra or whatever, he wins because he's unbendable, because his heart is ultimately stronger than Ozai's.

    The show also avoids the very frustrating trope of "kill the minions but spare the leader." Aang very pointedly never kills anyone except for when he's in the Avatar State, which is part of why the Avatar State makes him feel so scared and ashamed. This is a little loosey-goosey in the sense that it's an action cartoon, and some of the moves that Aang pulls would definitely kill someone in real life (being thrown overboard during a naval battle is not the best thing to have happen to you), but the show is pretty clear that those are meant to be taken as nonlethal takedowns. Aang fights with the bare minimum of violence necessary, and by the time it's even possible to kill the Fire Lord there's no longer any real need to.

    If I have a nitpick with the ending, it's that energy-bending is really kind of a fucked up thing to do to a person. I'm not shedding any tears about Ozai's soul being violated, but introducing the concept so late in the game makes it so there's no time to really explore the concept at all. BUT, honestly that's a criticism I point at Korra way more than I do at ATLA. "Energy bending is fucked up and scary" is one of a couple dozen ideas that Korra Book 1 flirts with exploring and then totally fumbles.

    ATLA Ending:
    The lion turtle coming in at the 11th hour and introducing a new technique is a little bit of an ass-pull in my opinion. I loved Aang going back to the old Avatars and discussing what to do, but all of a sudden having someone new come and tell you "well actually you could try this" is jarring as hell.

    If the live action show is going to make any changes, the first one I would do is start peppering in the lion turtle mythology in season 1 so when it shows up at the end, it won't come out of left field
    It definitely was mentioned in the library episode in season 2. I think there were a couple unremarked upon visual references to it as well.

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  • BedigunzBedigunz Registered User regular
    Bedigunz wrote: »
    I've definitely disliked endings similar to ATLA's but i think the show does a few important things to make it a really strong finish.
    The show is very upfront about the fact that killing the fire lord isn't morally wrong in a universal sense. In fact, every character in the show other than Aang thinks it's the right thing to do, even the previous air nomad avatar. It's only wrong for Aang to kill him. It's not just that Aang's a pacifist, but that he's the last surviving member of a pacifistic culture that the Fire Lord's grandfather destroyed. Ozai only respects brute force, and thinks the strongest murderer deserves to rule the world. Aang not only stops him from committing another genocide, he does it in a way that honors the culture that Ozai's family and ideology eradicated. Ozai thinks the Air Nomads were weaklings who didn't have a place in the world, and Aang demonstrates that he's wrong. The mechanism by which he does that is a little deus ex machina-y, but I don't accept the idea that that's inherently a bad thing, especially because all the lion-turtle does is create a means by which the philosophical argument between the two characters gets literalized. Aang doesn't win because the Lion Turtle unlocked his energy bending chakra or whatever, he wins because he's unbendable, because his heart is ultimately stronger than Ozai's.

    The show also avoids the very frustrating trope of "kill the minions but spare the leader." Aang very pointedly never kills anyone except for when he's in the Avatar State, which is part of why the Avatar State makes him feel so scared and ashamed. This is a little loosey-goosey in the sense that it's an action cartoon, and some of the moves that Aang pulls would definitely kill someone in real life (being thrown overboard during a naval battle is not the best thing to have happen to you), but the show is pretty clear that those are meant to be taken as nonlethal takedowns. Aang fights with the bare minimum of violence necessary, and by the time it's even possible to kill the Fire Lord there's no longer any real need to.

    If I have a nitpick with the ending, it's that energy-bending is really kind of a fucked up thing to do to a person. I'm not shedding any tears about Ozai's soul being violated, but introducing the concept so late in the game makes it so there's no time to really explore the concept at all. BUT, honestly that's a criticism I point at Korra way more than I do at ATLA. "Energy bending is fucked up and scary" is one of a couple dozen ideas that Korra Book 1 flirts with exploring and then totally fumbles.

    ATLA Ending:
    The lion turtle coming in at the 11th hour and introducing a new technique is a little bit of an ass-pull in my opinion. I loved Aang going back to the old Avatars and discussing what to do, but all of a sudden having someone new come and tell you "well actually you could try this" is jarring as hell.

    If the live action show is going to make any changes, the first one I would do is start peppering in the lion turtle mythology in season 1 so when it shows up at the end, it won't come out of left field
    It definitely was mentioned in the library episode in season 2. I think there were a couple unremarked upon visual references to it as well.

    I just checked the Avatar wiki and
    per the wiki, you're right that the Library has the first mention and visual of the Lion Turtle, but no mention of anything beyond that episode until the end:

    "During this episode, Aang comes across a book which depicts the meeting of a human and a lion turtle, foreshadowing his own encounter with one during the series finale."

    A great place to mention energy bending is when Aang is with the Guru unlocking Aang's chakras. I always believed that this event should have been two episodes, and extending it would be a good way to bring in energy bending so there's a little more foreshadowing.

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  • NarbusNarbus Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Bedigunz wrote: »
    I've definitely disliked endings similar to ATLA's but i think the show does a few important things to make it a really strong finish.
    The show is very upfront about the fact that killing the fire lord isn't morally wrong in a universal sense. In fact, every character in the show other than Aang thinks it's the right thing to do, even the previous air nomad avatar. It's only wrong for Aang to kill him. It's not just that Aang's a pacifist, but that he's the last surviving member of a pacifistic culture that the Fire Lord's grandfather destroyed. Ozai only respects brute force, and thinks the strongest murderer deserves to rule the world. Aang not only stops him from committing another genocide, he does it in a way that honors the culture that Ozai's family and ideology eradicated. Ozai thinks the Air Nomads were weaklings who didn't have a place in the world, and Aang demonstrates that he's wrong. The mechanism by which he does that is a little deus ex machina-y, but I don't accept the idea that that's inherently a bad thing, especially because all the lion-turtle does is create a means by which the philosophical argument between the two characters gets literalized. Aang doesn't win because the Lion Turtle unlocked his energy bending chakra or whatever, he wins because he's unbendable, because his heart is ultimately stronger than Ozai's.

    The show also avoids the very frustrating trope of "kill the minions but spare the leader." Aang very pointedly never kills anyone except for when he's in the Avatar State, which is part of why the Avatar State makes him feel so scared and ashamed. This is a little loosey-goosey in the sense that it's an action cartoon, and some of the moves that Aang pulls would definitely kill someone in real life (being thrown overboard during a naval battle is not the best thing to have happen to you), but the show is pretty clear that those are meant to be taken as nonlethal takedowns. Aang fights with the bare minimum of violence necessary, and by the time it's even possible to kill the Fire Lord there's no longer any real need to.

    If I have a nitpick with the ending, it's that energy-bending is really kind of a fucked up thing to do to a person. I'm not shedding any tears about Ozai's soul being violated, but introducing the concept so late in the game makes it so there's no time to really explore the concept at all. BUT, honestly that's a criticism I point at Korra way more than I do at ATLA. "Energy bending is fucked up and scary" is one of a couple dozen ideas that Korra Book 1 flirts with exploring and then totally fumbles.

    ATLA Ending:
    The lion turtle coming in at the 11th hour and introducing a new technique is a little bit of an ass-pull in my opinion. I loved Aang going back to the old Avatars and discussing what to do, but all of a sudden having someone new come and tell you "well actually you could try this" is jarring as hell.

    If the live action show is going to make any changes, the first one I would do is start peppering in the lion turtle mythology in season 1 so when it shows up at the end, it won't come out of left field

    As for Korra S1/S2:
    Handling the moral implications of taking/giving bending would have been a great story. Season 2 could start with Korra giving everyone's bending back, but when a criminal asks for it back, Korra hesitates. It could really speak to the role of the Avatar in the world, and how they are supposed to bring balance.

    You could still keep a lot of the interesting parts of the season (Avatar Wan, Vaatu/Raava, Varick, etc.) and it could still end with opening a portal to the spirit world, but it would be much more interesting than what they ended up doing.

    If we're fanfixing things, then for ATLA, I would have
    Aang figure it out himself, built up over time. Bumi says, way back in season 1, that he'll have to think outside the box when he faces the firelord. So, seed planted. Then have Ty Lee chi-block him, and Katara talk about how his energy is all "bent" out of shape, in season two, and prolly have the guru go in a little bit more about energy flowing through you at the end of that season. Then lean just a bit harder on Zuko talking about channeling energy and letting lightning flow through you half way through season 3, and put a bow on it with one of the past avatars talking about a war that threatened to pull in all four nations, yes even the air nomads, young airbender, and impart the wisdom that "the avatar draws their power from all four nations, to maintain balance. You must draw your wisdom from all parts of your life", and then he gets the idea and kerpow! Energy bending sorted.

    As for Korra,
    They actually do mention criminals and energy bending in season two. When Mako is trying to set up his sting operation, one of the things he offers is to have a talk with the avatar about restoring Shady Shin's bending, but it never went beyond that. So, again, interesting set up without any follow through, which is too bad.

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  • Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    I've definitely disliked endings similar to ATLA's but i think the show does a few important things to make it a really strong finish.
    The show is very upfront about the fact that killing the fire lord isn't morally wrong in a universal sense. In fact, every character in the show other than Aang thinks it's the right thing to do, even the previous air nomad avatar. It's only wrong for Aang to kill him. It's not just that Aang's a pacifist, but that he's the last surviving member of a pacifistic culture that the Fire Lord's grandfather destroyed. Ozai only respects brute force, and thinks the strongest murderer deserves to rule the world. Aang not only stops him from committing another genocide, he does it in a way that honors the culture that Ozai's family and ideology eradicated. Ozai thinks the Air Nomads were weaklings who didn't have a place in the world, and Aang demonstrates that he's wrong. The mechanism by which he does that is a little deus ex machina-y, but I don't accept the idea that that's inherently a bad thing, especially because all the lion-turtle does is create a means by which the philosophical argument between the two characters gets literalized. Aang doesn't win because the Lion Turtle unlocked his energy bending chakra or whatever, he wins because he's unbendable, because his heart is ultimately stronger than Ozai's.

    The show also avoids the very frustrating trope of "kill the minions but spare the leader." Aang very pointedly never kills anyone except for when he's in the Avatar State, which is part of why the Avatar State makes him feel so scared and ashamed. This is a little loosey-goosey in the sense that it's an action cartoon, and some of the moves that Aang pulls would definitely kill someone in real life (being thrown overboard during a naval battle is not the best thing to have happen to you), but the show is pretty clear that those are meant to be taken as nonlethal takedowns. Aang fights with the bare minimum of violence necessary, and by the time it's even possible to kill the Fire Lord there's no longer any real need to.

    If I have a nitpick with the ending, it's that energy-bending is really kind of a fucked up thing to do to a person. I'm not shedding any tears about Ozai's soul being violated, but introducing the concept so late in the game makes it so there's no time to really explore the concept at all. BUT, honestly that's a criticism I point at Korra way more than I do at ATLA. "Energy bending is fucked up and scary" is one of a couple dozen ideas that Korra Book 1 flirts with exploring and then totally fumbles.
    I do wish his pacifism had been a bit more actively addressed earlier in the show. Partially because it's a children's cartoon, so of course we don't see anyone dying, and it can be a bit hard to untangle if that's because that's just the way that things work, or because the characters are attempting to actively avoid killing anyone. I think Aang gives off the impression that he doesn't want to kill anyone plenty well, but I wish he had hit a clear moral quandary with killing (and chosen not to kill, obviously) earlier in the show. Not killing a bounty hunter that was sent after him and suffering the consequences or something like that.

    That said, it didn't entirely ruin the show for me or anything. And the fact that other characters were entirely down with killing (with a variety of specific moral arguments towards it) helped that a lot. It was very much presented as Aang's moral quandary, and not an overall question of good and evil.

    And yeah, I probably also don't want a children's TV show to end with its hero compromising his morals in order to (very justifiably) kill a (very bad) dude. I love a downer ending, don't get me wrong, but it has a time and a place.
    yeah i definitely agree that Aang's pacifism should've been a source of conflict sometime prior to the finale

    the closest you get is the great divide, an episode that nobody likes

  • OghulkOghulk Tinychat Janitor TinychatRegistered User regular
    Re: ATLA ending
    What I thought was most interesting about the Lion Turtle, and wasn't fully explored but hinted at, was that the avatar ancestors (specifically Roku said he did not recognize the place) had never been there before, indicating they'd never met the Lion Turtle. And that might have been because they all just were set with killing/"doing what was necessary", but because Aang actually wanted a different path for him the Lion Turtle showed him that another option was actually available.

    Kind of an interesting "if you presume that no other option exists then no other options present themselves, but if you actually pursue another way then you can find that way"

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  • 3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    Bedigunz wrote: »
    I've definitely disliked endings similar to ATLA's but i think the show does a few important things to make it a really strong finish.
    The show is very upfront about the fact that killing the fire lord isn't morally wrong in a universal sense. In fact, every character in the show other than Aang thinks it's the right thing to do, even the previous air nomad avatar. It's only wrong for Aang to kill him. It's not just that Aang's a pacifist, but that he's the last surviving member of a pacifistic culture that the Fire Lord's grandfather destroyed. Ozai only respects brute force, and thinks the strongest murderer deserves to rule the world. Aang not only stops him from committing another genocide, he does it in a way that honors the culture that Ozai's family and ideology eradicated. Ozai thinks the Air Nomads were weaklings who didn't have a place in the world, and Aang demonstrates that he's wrong. The mechanism by which he does that is a little deus ex machina-y, but I don't accept the idea that that's inherently a bad thing, especially because all the lion-turtle does is create a means by which the philosophical argument between the two characters gets literalized. Aang doesn't win because the Lion Turtle unlocked his energy bending chakra or whatever, he wins because he's unbendable, because his heart is ultimately stronger than Ozai's.

    The show also avoids the very frustrating trope of "kill the minions but spare the leader." Aang very pointedly never kills anyone except for when he's in the Avatar State, which is part of why the Avatar State makes him feel so scared and ashamed. This is a little loosey-goosey in the sense that it's an action cartoon, and some of the moves that Aang pulls would definitely kill someone in real life (being thrown overboard during a naval battle is not the best thing to have happen to you), but the show is pretty clear that those are meant to be taken as nonlethal takedowns. Aang fights with the bare minimum of violence necessary, and by the time it's even possible to kill the Fire Lord there's no longer any real need to.

    If I have a nitpick with the ending, it's that energy-bending is really kind of a fucked up thing to do to a person. I'm not shedding any tears about Ozai's soul being violated, but introducing the concept so late in the game makes it so there's no time to really explore the concept at all. BUT, honestly that's a criticism I point at Korra way more than I do at ATLA. "Energy bending is fucked up and scary" is one of a couple dozen ideas that Korra Book 1 flirts with exploring and then totally fumbles.

    ATLA Ending:
    The lion turtle coming in at the 11th hour and introducing a new technique is a little bit of an ass-pull in my opinion. I loved Aang going back to the old Avatars and discussing what to do, but all of a sudden having someone new come and tell you "well actually you could try this" is jarring as hell.

    If the live action show is going to make any changes, the first one I would do is start peppering in the lion turtle mythology in season 1 so when it shows up at the end, it won't come out of left field
    It definitely was mentioned in the library episode in season 2. I think there were a couple unremarked upon visual references to it as well.

    I'm rewatching with my wife (her first time) and confirm yes, this is talked about in that episode.

    Shorty
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