National Protests are Still a Thing Because of [Police Brutality]

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited July 30
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Label wrote: »
    Looks like the feds are going still going at it in portland.

    I wish i could be surprised.

    Ironically, if the Portland Police really wanted to reform their image with the constituency, they could be out there, in quantity in uniform, de-tacticalized (ie, not wearing the full riot gear), and responding to the federal goons with "Whoa, whoa, whoa, we're here to protect and serve OUR community", and putting themselves in the line of fire, and preventing the abductions we've seen.

    There's a risk, because of all the bad blood over the past two months, but it'd help with getting the community back on side, at least a little, that it's not "cops vs public". It'd be what a "good cop" would do. But they don't, because #ACAB.

    It's like the Republicans in Congress re Covid. They have outs that could save them. But they're too fucking stubborn, and too fucking stupid, and too fucking entitled, to take the obvious lifeline that's available.

    The hardest step toward changing is admitting you were wrong. True for people. True for organizations.

    And the PPB is kinda shit even for cops.

    The realization that Nazis have, for some time now, been trying to colonize the northwest has certainly filled in a few blanks for me as to why two very blue cities, in two very blue states, seem to have such fascist police departments.

    Seattle Police have always been shitty and racist

    https://crosscut.com/2020/06/time-abolish-seattle-police-was-yesterday

    Crosscut is also a good source of local zealots/pnw news and history. You might recognize its editor Knute Mossback Berger, as the guy with the huge beard doing 5 minute seattle/pnw histories on PBS

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  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    I don't know if it's been mentioned in here (so many atrocity threads, so little time), but I came across this in a tweet that I thought was fairly interesting, though I don't know the guy's qualifications.


    Basically: This is all going exactly as written in the book when shit is handled incorrectly, and if they keep mishandling shit things are going to get worse.

    The specific book being referred to:
    https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf
    FM 3-24
    MCWP 3-33.5
    INSURGENCIES AND
    COUNTERING
    INSURGENCIES

    These people can’t even follow a 60- page pamplet on how to handle a pandemic you expect them to read and follow a manual on best counterinsurgency practices?
    A serious problem in planning against American doctrine is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine.

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  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited July 30
    In case you thought reality was too on the nose, on his way to a "Cops For Trump" rally, Pence's motorcade got into a minor accident.

    (CBS correspondent)


    Naturally, literally nobody milling around is wearing a mask.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited July 30
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Label wrote: »
    Looks like the feds are going still going at it in portland.

    I wish i could be surprised.

    Ironically, if the Portland Police really wanted to reform their image with the constituency, they could be out there, in quantity in uniform, de-tacticalized (ie, not wearing the full riot gear), and responding to the federal goons with "Whoa, whoa, whoa, we're here to protect and serve OUR community", and putting themselves in the line of fire, and preventing the abductions we've seen.

    There's a risk, because of all the bad blood over the past two months, but it'd help with getting the community back on side, at least a little, that it's not "cops vs public". It'd be what a "good cop" would do. But they don't, because #ACAB.

    It's like the Republicans in Congress re Covid. They have outs that could save them. But they're too fucking stubborn, and too fucking stupid, and too fucking entitled, to take the obvious lifeline that's available.

    The hardest step toward changing is admitting you were wrong. True for people. True for organizations.

    And the PPB is kinda shit even for cops.

    The realization that Nazis have, for some time now, been trying to colonize the northwest has certainly filled in a few blanks for me as to why two very blue cities, in two very blue states, seem to have such fascist police departments.

    40% of Washington state voted for Trump. 20% of King County voted for Trump. As we all know, almost every state is actually purple. Even setting aside the Nazi presence in the PNW...which is real, don't get me wrong...there are more than enough conservatives living in any state in the country for police forces to draw from. Police departments have a self-reinforcing culture that encourages excessive force and discourages accountability, from top to bottom. And unlike the military, which at least has the college benefits and the expectation of one-and-done contracts to draw from a broader political cross section, police work is a career that you enter into with the intent of staying indefinitely. You plan to wear a badge for twenty years or more. Because of the real political divides that exist, I have to assume that's going to skew conservative and authoritarian.

    How many open-minded, liberal people do you know that are like "I wanna be a cop?" It doesn't matter how liberal or blue your city or state thinks it is, the police can easily fill the ranks with buzzcuts looking to crack skulls. Those people are all around us, everywhere.

    I assume that all police forces have an authoritarian inclination, I'm suggesting that the prevalence of far right agitators in their ranks is probably a multiplier for its intensity, and that areas with more Nazis should have more Nazi cops.

    However, I cannot come up with a metric to actually test this, due in no small part to the fact I don't believe police departments can't be relied on to report the information that might be pertinent to identifying trends in over-policing and misconduct.

    Edit:
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Label wrote: »
    Looks like the feds are going still going at it in portland.

    I wish i could be surprised.

    Ironically, if the Portland Police really wanted to reform their image with the constituency, they could be out there, in quantity in uniform, de-tacticalized (ie, not wearing the full riot gear), and responding to the federal goons with "Whoa, whoa, whoa, we're here to protect and serve OUR community", and putting themselves in the line of fire, and preventing the abductions we've seen.

    There's a risk, because of all the bad blood over the past two months, but it'd help with getting the community back on side, at least a little, that it's not "cops vs public". It'd be what a "good cop" would do. But they don't, because #ACAB.

    It's like the Republicans in Congress re Covid. They have outs that could save them. But they're too fucking stubborn, and too fucking stupid, and too fucking entitled, to take the obvious lifeline that's available.

    The hardest step toward changing is admitting you were wrong. True for people. True for organizations.

    And the PPB is kinda shit even for cops.

    The realization that Nazis have, for some time now, been trying to colonize the northwest has certainly filled in a few blanks for me as to why two very blue cities, in two very blue states, seem to have such fascist police departments.

    Seattle Police have always been shitty and racist

    https://crosscut.com/2020/06/time-abolish-seattle-police-was-yesterday

    Crosscut is also a good source of local zealots/pnw news and history. You might recognize its editor Knute Mossback Berger, as the guy with the huge beard doing 5 minute seattle/pnw histories on PBS

    I think this could be said of many comparably sized cities, though. So perhaps I have this backwards, and SPD/PPD only seem disproportionately fascist because local activism drags it out of the locker room and into the streets for all to see.

    Alternativelier: My perception, that Seattle and Portland seem more eager to fash it up than your average mid-sized city, is less reflective of an actual disparity than it is of the contrast between reality (breaking up protests) and expectation (putting a bird on them).

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    Label wrote: »
    Looks like the feds are going still going at it in portland.

    I wish i could be surprised.

    Ironically, if the Portland Police really wanted to reform their image with the constituency, they could be out there, in quantity in uniform, de-tacticalized (ie, not wearing the full riot gear), and responding to the federal goons with "Whoa, whoa, whoa, we're here to protect and serve OUR community", and putting themselves in the line of fire, and preventing the abductions we've seen.

    There's a risk, because of all the bad blood over the past two months, but it'd help with getting the community back on side, at least a little, that it's not "cops vs public". It'd be what a "good cop" would do. But they don't, because #ACAB.

    It's like the Republicans in Congress re Covid. They have outs that could save them. But they're too fucking stubborn, and too fucking stupid, and too fucking entitled, to take the obvious lifeline that's available.

    The hardest step toward changing is admitting you were wrong. True for people. True for organizations.

    And the PPB is kinda shit even for cops.

    The realization that Nazis have, for some time now, been trying to colonize the northwest has certainly filled in a few blanks for me as to why two very blue cities, in two very blue states, seem to have such fascist police departments.

    40% of Washington state voted for Trump. 20% of King County voted for Trump. As we all know, almost every state is actually purple. Even setting aside the Nazi presence in the PNW...which is real, don't get me wrong...there are more than enough conservatives living in any state in the country for police forces to draw from. Police departments have a self-reinforcing culture that encourages excessive force and discourages accountability, from top to bottom. And unlike the military, which at least has the college benefits and the expectation of one-and-done contracts to draw from a broader political cross section, police work is a career that you enter into with the intent of staying indefinitely. You plan to wear a badge for twenty years or more. Because of the real political divides that exist, I have to assume that's going to skew conservative and authoritarian.

    How many open-minded, liberal people do you know that are like "I wanna be a cop?" It doesn't matter how liberal or blue your city or state thinks it is, the police can easily fill the ranks with buzzcuts looking to crack skulls. Those people are all around us, everywhere.

    Which is itself a long-term problem for dealing with shitty policing because at some point you are gonna have to get people not like that into those job.

    But this is why the best answer is to eliminate the jobs bootlicker's covet, and replace them with jobs better suited to the actual public safety needs, which are inherrently more attractive to the compassionate do-gooders among us.

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  • madparrotmadparrot Registered User regular
    John Lewis with a posthumous essay about BLM
    While my time here has now come to an end, I want you to know that in the last days and hours of my life you inspired me. You filled me with hope about the next chapter of the great American story when you used your power to make a difference in our society. Millions of people motivated simply by human compassion laid down the burdens of division. Around the country and the world you set aside race, class, age, language and nationality to demand respect for human dignity.

    That is why I had to visit Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, though I was admitted to the hospital the following day. I just had to see and feel it for myself that, after many years of silent witness, the truth is still marching on.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    When he writes “walk with the wind,” one presumes he wasn’t referring to leafblbowers

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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    This thread is likely to get reset soon, but thought this tidbit would be worth dropping.

    According to newly leaked documents, the DHS issued legal guidance to say that officers acting on their behalf wouldn't get liability if they continued to tear gas crowed that happen to include journalists & legal observers.



    Ken is a reporter for The Nation.
    Department of Homeland Security issued internal legal guidance telling officers they would not be held liable for tear gassing journalists as long as they weren't directly targeted, per documents leaked to me:

    This has Barr's handiwork all over it. Smells like shit, probably tastes like shit, and is likely to be considered a shit argument when it comes into contact with any good first amendment attorney.

    All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
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  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    The whole point of gas is that you aren’t specifically targeting anyone you’re just flooding an area.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    "As long as you go ham with your banned-from-war weaponry, no jury in the world would ever convict you!" - DHS to its operatives

    Wake me up already.

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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    This is basically the Bart vs. Lisa windmill attack defense.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/dhs-compiled-intelligence-reports-on-journalists-who-published-leaked-documents/2020/07/30/5be5ec9e-d25b-11ea-9038-af089b63ac21_story.html
    Over the past week, the department’s Office of Intelligence and Analysis has disseminated three Open Source Intelligence Reports to federal law enforcement agencies and others, summarizing tweets written by two journalists — a reporter for the New York Times and the editor in chief of the blog Lawfare — and noting they had published leaked, unclassified documents about DHS operations in Portland. The intelligence reports, obtained by The Washington Post, include written descriptions and images of the tweets, and the number of times they had been liked or retweeted by others.

    Some of the leaked DHS documents the journalists posted and wrote about revealed shortcomings in the department’s understanding of the nature of the protests in Portland, as well as techniques that intelligence analysts have used. A memo by the department’s top intelligence official, which was tweeted by the editor of Lawfare, says personnel relied on “FINTEL,” an acronym for financial intelligence, as well as “Baseball cards” of arrested protesters to try to understand their motivations and plans. Historically, military and intelligence officials have used such cards for biographical dossiers of suspected terrorists, including those targeted in lethal drone strikes.

    The DHS intelligence reports, which are unclassified, are traditionally used for sharing the department’s analysis with federal law enforcement agencies, state and local officials and some foreign governments. They are not intended to disseminate information about American citizens who have no connection to terrorists or other violent actors and who are engaged in activity protected by the First Amendment, current and former officials said.

    Officials who are familiar with the reports, and who spoke on the condition of anonymity to candidly discuss them, said they are consistent with the department’s aggressive tactics in Portland, and in particular the work of the Intelligence and Analysis office, which they worried is exceeding the boundaries of its authority in an effort to crackdown on “antifa” protesters to please President Trump. He and other senior administration officials have used that “anti-fascist” label to describe people in Portland and other cities who are protesting police violence, as well as others who have vandalized statues and memorials to Confederate officers that they consider racist.
    The Intelligence and Analysis office has for years been the butt of jokes among larger, more established agencies like the CIA and the FBI, who liken it to a team of junior-varsity athletes. The DHS office produces reports that are largely based on unclassified, often public sources of information that current and former officials have said are of limited use.
    The Intelligence and Analysis office really sounds like they want to be big boys by pleasing Trump

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  • painfulPleasancepainfulPleasance Registered User regular
    edited July 31
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    Sincere non baiting question.

    Why did federal law enforcement pick Portland Oregon as their Stalingrad?

    I'm not understanding.

    Oregon was made as a whites-only promised land for people who thought the pre-confederate south had too much "admixture" and is the home of Northwest Forum, the largest gathering of national socialists that doesn't think slavs are white. There are other reasons, but the PNW is oddly polarized. It's like how Oakland used to be run by the Klan.

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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    I don't think the police/federal agitators/fascists in general want de-escalation. I think there's something in the human animal that fucking loves punishing people for breaking the rules, so much so that we invent reasons to do it. You see this with little kids, in how much they love tattling on each other for any minor thing, because they might get to see the rule breaker get scolded. It's not about justice or even about changing people's behavior; it's about the rush of making the deviant suffer.

    Our entire justice system is designed to punish people who deviate from our racist, sexist, queerphobic institutional norms. Their crime, if any, is just the excuse.

    I think for authoritarians, the exercise of power over other people is basically a drug. They like the protests and they welcome escalation, because it gives them an excuse to put people in their place and they love that.

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    I don't think the police/federal agitators/fascists in general want de-escalation. I think there's something in the human animal that fucking loves punishing people for breaking the rules, so much so that we invent reasons to do it. You see this with little kids, in how much they love tattling on each other for any minor thing, because they might get to see the rule breaker get scolded. It's not about justice or even about changing people's behavior; it's about the rush of making the deviant suffer.

    Our entire justice system is designed to punish people who deviate from our racist, sexist, queerphobic institutional norms. Their crime, if any, is just the excuse.

    I think for authoritarians, the exercise of power over other people is basically a drug. They like the protests and they welcome escalation, because it gives them an excuse to put people in their place and they love that.

    Yeah, I can definitely see how someone would have fun dressing up in riot cop cosplay, forming a phalanx with their goon buddies, and then just fucking with people who they're opposing with shields, batons, flashbangs, tear gas, grenade launchers, rubber coated bullets, etc, etc. And they can justify all of it to themselves because they're cops, so that means what they're doing is right and just and lawful, and what everyone opposing them is doing is bad and unlawful and deserving of punishment. Putting cops in that position is basically setting them up to go wild with it.

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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    I don't think the police/federal agitators/fascists in general want de-escalation. I think there's something in the human animal that fucking loves punishing people for breaking the rules, so much so that we invent reasons to do it. You see this with little kids, in how much they love tattling on each other for any minor thing, because they might get to see the rule breaker get scolded. It's not about justice or even about changing people's behavior; it's about the rush of making the deviant suffer.

    Our entire justice system is designed to punish people who deviate from our racist, sexist, queerphobic institutional norms. Their crime, if any, is just the excuse.

    I think for authoritarians, the exercise of power over other people is basically a drug. They like the protests and they welcome escalation, because it gives them an excuse to put people in their place and they love that.

    I'm not sure that anger over violation of the social contract is an inherently negative thing. You say it's not about justice, but I'd say that's the emotion at the core of 'justice' is in the first place. The frustration between what is and what you think should be.

    The gap between us and them comes down more to perception of what exactly is in the social contract. We want to see cops fired for their violations, they want to see protestors assaulted for their 'violations'. The problem lay in their nightmare image of what society should look like.

    It's natural that it's satisfying for anyone on an instinctive level to reinforce the social contract as they perceive it, I mean if it didn't feel good we wouldn't do it consistently, we're pretty simple that way. Obviously there are more enlightened ways to do it than just bringing down the hammer, but I don't know that the desire to bring down the hammer should be vilified, and it definitely shouldn't be put off as something only 'those people' feel or desire.

    Even if (like a lot of emotional outbursts) its not best let loose raw, and instead understood and guided to more effective methods of resolving that gap between is and should be.

    I mean, I think the protests bringing people over (as opposed to simply succeeding through 'or else', which to be clear I think is wholly fair and viable), a chunk of it's on the basis of this feeling. People seeing the repeated excessive violations of the police and feeling anger and looking for what can be done to put them in their place.

    Sorry this is rambly, this is in the same area as stuff I think about a lot.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited July 31



    Local randos as far as I can tell, but apparently the police in Portland were spraying gas with...mosquito fogging machines? last night. Presumably to avoid having the canisters thrown back at them but it's VERY weird.

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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    I don't think the police/federal agitators/fascists in general want de-escalation. I think there's something in the human animal that fucking loves punishing people for breaking the rules, so much so that we invent reasons to do it. You see this with little kids, in how much they love tattling on each other for any minor thing, because they might get to see the rule breaker get scolded. It's not about justice or even about changing people's behavior; it's about the rush of making the deviant suffer.

    Our entire justice system is designed to punish people who deviate from our racist, sexist, queerphobic institutional norms. Their crime, if any, is just the excuse.

    I think for authoritarians, the exercise of power over other people is basically a drug. They like the protests and they welcome escalation, because it gives them an excuse to put people in their place and they love that.

    I'm not sure that anger over violation of the social contract is an inherently negative thing. You say it's not about justice, but I'd say that's the emotion at the core of 'justice' is in the first place. The frustration between what is and what you think should be.

    The gap between us and them comes down more to perception of what exactly is in the social contract. We want to see cops fired for their violations, they want to see protestors assaulted for their 'violations'. The problem lay in their nightmare image of what society should look like.

    It's natural that it's satisfying for anyone on an instinctive level to reinforce the social contract as they perceive it, I mean if it didn't feel good we wouldn't do it consistently, we're pretty simple that way. Obviously there are more enlightened ways to do it than just bringing down the hammer, but I don't know that the desire to bring down the hammer should be vilified, and it definitely shouldn't be put off as something only 'those people' feel or desire.

    Even if (like a lot of emotional outbursts) its not best let loose raw, and instead understood and guided to more effective methods of resolving that gap between is and should be.

    I mean, I think the protests bringing people over (as opposed to simply succeeding through 'or else', which to be clear I think is wholly fair and viable), a chunk of it's on the basis of this feeling. People seeing the repeated excessive violations of the police and feeling anger and looking for what can be done to put them in their place.

    Sorry this is rambly, this is in the same area as stuff I think about a lot.

    Anger over violation of the social contract is absolutely a good thing - in moderation, and channeled in productive directions. Also, there's a difference between justice and retribution. The former means healing harm already done, to the extent possible. The latter is inflicting harm on a wrongdoer for no reason other than wanting to see them suffer. That helps no one.

    Like, obviously there are people who need to be temporarily or permanently removed from society for everyone else's safety and wellbeing. My preferred solution to that would be something like the Norwegian prison system, where even people who are there for life are kept in relative comfort. There's nothing to be gained by torturing prisoners - in fact, it works out significantly better for everyone if you don't! But it makes our monkey brains feel good to hurt people who hurt us (or even offend us).

    I think the desire to bring down the hammer is natural, certainly; but I also believe that ideally, no one should ever exercise power in anger. Be angry, absolutely! Make plans while angry, even! But acting while angry often has... suboptimal results.

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »



    Local randos as far as I can tell, but apparently the police in Portland were spraying gas with...mosquito fogging machines? last night. Presumably to avoid having the canisters thrown back at them but it's VERY weird.

    The protestors need to flip things around now and bring out some industrial gas-powered vacuums to suck up the gas.

    So the assholes going down the fenceline spraying tear gas are just followed by people that vacuum it all up in the dumbest arms race ever.

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  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Big rolly industrial fans with car batteries.

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    We are the monsters under our beds.
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  • AtomikaAtomika Prune Tracy Registered User regular
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/31/us/vallejo-california-badge-bending-scandal/index.html

    Former Vallejo (CA) police captain files lawsuit alleging he was terminated for instigating probe into ritual where cops celebrate their first on-the-job kill—which found at least ten officers.

    The city mayor is supporting the captain. The police union leader has decried the suit, to the shock and dismay of absolutely no one.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/31/us/vallejo-california-badge-bending-scandal/index.html

    Former Vallejo (CA) police captain files lawsuit alleging he was terminated for instigating probe into ritual where cops celebrate their first on-the-job kill—which found at least ten officers.

    The city mayor is supporting the captain. The police union leader has decried the suit, to the shock and dismay of absolutely no one.

    The chief claims he is "deeply disturbed" upon hearing about the practice.

    Whereas I'm having trouble summoning "mild surprise." Gangs have long used various markings and rituals after a member kills somebody. Tattooed tears, red laces, bent badges, all the same shit.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Big rolly industrial fans with car batteries.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    At this point use of tear gas needs to flat out be banned by federal law

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    At this point use of tear gas needs to flat out be banned by federal law

    The funniest quote I've seen connected with this was feds complaining about the pervasive presence of tear gas in the air around the federal courthouse.

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    At this point use of tear gas needs to flat out be banned by federal law

    As well as these fucking less lethal impact munitions

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    We also have to explicitly ban the testing of weapons and munitions in "live situations" or whatever other official terminology exists. There's videos of the feds picking up the shells and canisters of the things they are using, which are producing side-effects not affiliated with what tear gas is known for.

    This is going to be such a huge undertaking though using the current government structure. It's bad enough we have to fight Republicans on this stuff, but a lot of Democrats are war hawks and are into the idea of arming our cops this way.

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  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    So, white supremacists have employed this strategy for a long time, since roughly the early nineties but the idea has probably been around forever, of "ghost skins." These cats are the same ideologically as your average boots-and-red-suspenders fake-punk neonazi skinhead, only aesthetically they're committed to being buttoned down, average white professionals. No head shaving, no visible tattoos, no outward signs of being a fascist. These men are encouraged to seek positions of power, on school boards and in police departments, in social services and as teachers and professors. According to FBI reports from the late aughts and early '10s, white supremacists have "infiltrated" (I use the sarcastaquotes there because American policing is fundamentally based on white supremacy just not this exact kind) major police departments all over the United States and the problem is almost certainly worse than their investigation revealed, especially in smaller rural departments. This is a real thing, this isn't just lefty conspiracy crafting. It's where you get fucking weasels like Richard Spencer and stuff, the respectable buttoned-down fascist.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    At this point use of tear gas needs to flat out be banned by federal law

    The funniest quote I've seen connected with this was feds complaining about the pervasive presence of tear gas in the air around the federal courthouse.

    For me it was a police spox complaining that a protester had used bear mace and it was burning their officer's skin and eyes.

    To be fair, it is more potent, but talk about the pot calling the kettle charcoal.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    I'm a proponent of regional or county level police departments because while some problems would scale up it gets rid of the thousands of tiny fiefdoms that are borderline impossible to hold to account when left to local control

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  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    So, white supremacists have employed this strategy for a long time, since roughly the early nineties but the idea has probably been around forever, of "ghost skins." These cats are the same ideologically as your average boots-and-red-suspenders fake-punk neonazi skinhead, only aesthetically they're committed to being buttoned down, average white professionals. No head shaving, no visible tattoos, no outward signs of being a fascist. These men are encouraged to seek positions of power, on school boards and in police departments, in social services and as teachers and professors. According to FBI reports from the late aughts and early '10s, white supremacists have "infiltrated" (I use the sarcastaquotes there because American policing is fundamentally based on white supremacy just not this exact kind) major police departments all over the United States and the problem is almost certainly worse than their investigation revealed, especially in smaller rural departments. This is a real thing, this isn't just lefty conspiracy crafting. It's where you get fucking weasels like Richard Spencer and stuff, the respectable buttoned-down fascist.

    Also the US military at an increasing rate. The infiltration is very intentional and deliberate.

    (Yes I know the SPLC still won't recognize its union. This information on the military is still valid, though.)

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  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Trump ordered federal forces to quell Portland protests. But the chaos ended as soon as they left.

    WashPo headline is just so telling.
    PORTLAND, Ore. — After President Trump ordered federal law enforcement officers into Portland, Ore., earlier this month, the protests largely ended the same way for days: with tear gas, rubber bullets and arrests.

    On Thursday, the first protest held since the federal agencies agreed to pull back their officers was a markedly more peaceful affair.

    As the Black Lives Matter-inspired vigil wound down early Friday morning, there was virtually no sign of the Oregon State Police officers who had taken over protection of the federal buildings at the center of the protests.

    Instead of being forcibly removed from downtown’s Lownsdale Square and the adjacent Chapman Square, which lie opposite the barricaded Mark O. Hatfield U.S. Courthouse, the crowd thinned out on its own, with many protesters heading home of their own accord.

    By a little after 1 a.m., only a relatively small crew remained, far down from the enormous crowd that had gathered four hours earlier to listen to speakers and chant anti-law enforcement slogans. The mood was celebratory, if subdued.

    “Trump overplayed his hand,” said Derrick, a 30-year-old protester wearing a helmet, ski goggles and carrying a shield with the Oregon flag on it. “He underestimated us.”

    “I don’t think he realizes there are so many people aligned with the so-called antifa, what he calls terrorists,” added Derrick, who asked that his full name not be published.

    03x29di.png
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  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Getting teargas and some of the less lethal munitions banned, seems like one of the few things that the federal government can easily do. Some of the other stuff is going to be a mixed bag because that requires a carrot approach with localities.

    I have to wonder if licensing might be another one we can hope to achieve on the federal level. Pisses me off that someone has to get a license to serve fucking food, but no license is needed to don the badge and a gun. It's just bonkers because the latter is far more open to shitheads abusing it by harming people with zero consequence, where the former actually can suffer economic harm for harming people because they'll lose customers or get fired.

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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    We also have to explicitly ban the testing of weapons and munitions in "live situations" or whatever other official terminology exists. There's videos of the feds picking up the shells and canisters of the things they are using, which are producing side-effects not affiliated with what tear gas is known for.

    This is going to be such a huge undertaking though using the current government structure. It's bad enough we have to fight Republicans on this stuff, but a lot of Democrats are war hawks and are into the idea of arming our cops this way.

    What.

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    We also have to explicitly ban the testing of weapons and munitions in "live situations" or whatever other official terminology exists. There's videos of the feds picking up the shells and canisters of the things they are using, which are producing side-effects not affiliated with what tear gas is known for.

    This is going to be such a huge undertaking though using the current government structure. It's bad enough we have to fight Republicans on this stuff, but a lot of Democrats are war hawks and are into the idea of arming our cops this way.

    What.

    Welcome to America! Now pick up that can, citizen.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    edited August 1
    Calica wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    We also have to explicitly ban the testing of weapons and munitions in "live situations" or whatever other official terminology exists. There's videos of the feds picking up the shells and canisters of the things they are using, which are producing side-effects not affiliated with what tear gas is known for.

    This is going to be such a huge undertaking though using the current government structure. It's bad enough we have to fight Republicans on this stuff, but a lot of Democrats are war hawks and are into the idea of arming our cops this way.

    What.
    Are you in disbelief that it's happening or questioning the validity of what I'm saying? If it's disbelief, yeah shit is wild here.

    If you don't believe me, I invite you to look at any police department in the country. Jean Quan, former Democratic mayor of Oakland CA for example, was notorious for arming the Oakland PD with as much military gear as possible.

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  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    Remember, politicians believe it necessary to be 'tough on crime'. And the easiest way to prove it is mandatory minimum sentencing, so-called third strike laws, and arming the fuck out of the cops.

    We don't have time for rational solutions!

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    The politicians are just a reflection of really shitty voter views trapped in in some really shitty, archaic, fundamentalist religion-based views on crime. The politicians don't give a shit as long as they have power, it's awful voters who think brutalizing everyone for everything is justified and desirable in a society.

    The folks who are just appalled at the idea of trying to elevate people out of poverty to fight crime (because, naturally, only lazy, greedy socialists are poor) are the ones voting in the politicians who militarize cops and utterly ruin lives over a spoonful of harmless dried plant.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I think a lot of sheltered middle class white people such as myself didn’t realize the brutality the police were using, especially on innocent people. Cameras shattered that illusion.

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    I remember back in the early 2000s when dashcam footage started surfacing of brutality during traffic stops, the tone in the communities I belonged to was "just follow instructions, and you won't get tazed, look at these crazy people resisting"

    Then camera phones became ubiquitous, and "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" turned out to be "you're getting a stupid prize even if you're not playing"

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