National Protests are Still a Thing Because of [Police Brutality]

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  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Arch wrote: »
    Tav wrote: »


    the dude straight up admitted his wife doesn't have any knowledge about guns, absolutely wild that two lawyers who have lawyers couldn't have made a less stupid statement

    i hope they're both charged with felonies

    Also....he...did...point...it..at...people????

    maybe he means aim?
    As in he didn't bring the rifle up and use the sights to acquire a target?

    I dunno, our species is really fucking dumb.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    That’s what he means

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    That’s what he means

    You would think a lawyer would be more careful with the words he uses.

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  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    They don't own the street outside, so they can get fucked

    Yes, actually, they do. It's a private street, owned and maintained by the property owners. The property boundaries are literally posted on the previous page.

    So everybody who drives down that road, including their neighbours, is trespassing constantly until they get home?

    Or is there dispensation granted by the HOA, which means that they have final say, and therefore should be the authority enforcing street access?

    Landowners can make legal contracts with other people that give them certain permissions (non-possessory rights) to utilize their land, called an easement. An example of this is parcels of land that are completely "landlocked" by other parcels of land and do not have access to a road. The owner of the landlocked parcel might have an agreement with the owner of the parcel next to theirs that allows them to utilize a driveway built on their property to get to a main road (as an example).

    The property owners in that neighborhood have some sort of group legal agreement allowing other residents of that neighborhood to pass through their land on the road so that they can get to and from their home. Honestly the entire neighborhood looks like it's HOA'd out the fucking ass so I am sure the agreements are incredibly detailed and filled with stupid minutiae because that is what HOAs excel at.

    What you're describing in your first paragraph is called an ingress/egress or access easement, and it applies to anyone using the easement to go to or from a served parcel provided they haven't been directed to leave by the owner of the destination parcel; in other words, protesters passing through such an easement to arrive at the mayor's house are within their rights to do so, in exactly the same way that, for example, a UPS truck might reasonably expect to be able to drive down a private road to make a delivery to a home without having guns pointed at it by the neighbors.

    The more likely scenario for a neighborhood like this is what you're describing in your second paragraph, which is that the neighborhood is under the jurisdiction of an HOA and the roads in it have been deeded to the HOA (rather than simply lying in a series of easements through individually-held private property). It will surprise very few to learn that pointing guns at people in the street under this scenario is even more outlandishly unreasonable than in the case of a private road lying in an access easement, because in this situation the gun-toting homeowners don't own the roads at all. The HOA does, and the HOA is empowered to direct people to leave its property just like any other property owner, but this clown is not the HOA. He gets a vote on HOA decisions at HOA meetings because he owns property within the bounds of the HOA agreement, but does not personally represent the HOA as an organization and has no more right to point guns at people standing on the HOA's property than he does to point guns at people standing on any other private property he does not own.

    To summarize: This guy very likely doesn't own the street outside; in spite of the fact that it is a privately-owned street, it is almost certainly not owned by this particular asshole, and even if he did own the piece of the road that passes in front of his house, the access easement and/or private road agreement that allowed the road to be constructed in the first place would preclude him from denying access to (and certainly from pointing weapons at) people using the road to go to his neighbor's house.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Also just going to take a moment to point out that the failure of the state to charge him will in no way be proof that the act wasn’t criminal. I think most of us will be unsurprised if no charges result against these people. The difference is that some of us think that’s a problem.

    The unequal application of the criminal justice system is a large part of why this threat exists, and those protesters were out.

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  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    That’s what he means

    You would think a lawyer would be more careful with the words he uses.

    Lawyers aren't magical fucking beings who, by dint of accreditation, are suddenly intelligent and rational.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    That’s what he means

    You would think a lawyer would be more careful with the words he uses.

    Lawyers aren't magical fucking beings who, by dint of accreditation, are suddenly intelligent and rational.

    I disagree. I only know two. Hakk and SIG. Both clearly are.

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  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    That’s what he means

    You would think a lawyer would be more careful with the words he uses.

    Lawyers aren't magical fucking beings who, by dint of accreditation, are suddenly intelligent and rational.

    I disagree. I only know two. Hakk and SIG. Both clearly are.

    You're getting cause and effect mixed up :P

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    That’s what he means

    You would think a lawyer would be more careful with the words he uses.

    Lawyers aren't magical fucking beings who, by dint of accreditation, are suddenly intelligent and rational.

    I disagree. I only know two. Hakk and SIG. Both clearly are.

    Correlation is not causation, etc.

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  • SmokeStacksSmokeStacks The Myth, the Legend, the Bowman, the Shambler FuckerRegistered User regular
    St. Louis burglary rates are almost three times higher than the national average (rate per 1k is 9.87 compared to 3.76), so if you really can't fathom why anyone in that area would want a gated community after reading that I don't know what to tell you.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    St. Louis burglary rates are almost three times higher than the national average (rate per 1k is 9.87 compared to 3.76), so if you really can't fathom why anyone in that area would want a gated community after reading that I don't know what to tell you.

    It’s not that people can’t fathom it, it’s that every reason you can fathom is based on racism

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    edited June 30
    St. Louis burglary rates are almost three times higher than the national average (rate per 1k is 9.87 compared to 3.76), so if you really can't fathom why anyone in that area would want a gated community after reading that I don't know what to tell you.

    The St. Louis area has also been the site of multiple murders by, and protests of, cops -- the topic of the thread. Maybe if the police weren't racist and actually focused on helping the community, people wouldn't live in fear.

    The last few pages of justification have been disgusting, btw. You mentioned earlier that this was not how to win over white male middle-class suburban folk. Well, frankly, if this lawyer represents that group, then I want nothing to do with my demographic, because improper firearm usage is far, FAR worse than some property damage. Property can be replaced. Life can't.

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  • TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    St. Louis burglary rates are almost three times higher than the national average (rate per 1k is 9.87 compared to 3.76), so if you really can't fathom why anyone in that area would want a gated community after reading that I don't know what to tell you.

    One of the huge issues at the core of the massive injustice plaguing our country is that the private property of rich white folks is considered more valuable than the actual human lives of people asking to not be killed.

    If you can't see why this moment you are arguing about is emblematic of that very injustice, I don't know what to tell you.

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  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    St. Louis burglary rates are almost three times higher than the national average (rate per 1k is 9.87 compared to 3.76), so if you really can't fathom why anyone in that area would want a gated community after reading that I don't know what to tell you.

    So there is almost a 1% chance that your house is broken into? Yeah, no. Not feeling it. Crimes in my area are 50% higher per 1k and I don't even lock my doors at night.

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  • OghulkOghulk Registered User regular
    St. Louis burglary rates are almost three times higher than the national average (rate per 1k is 9.87 compared to 3.76), so if you really can't fathom why anyone in that area would want a gated community after reading that I don't know what to tell you.

    This has literally nothing to do with your poor understanding of municipal law

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  • Special KSpecial K Registered User regular
    St. Louis burglary rates are almost three times higher than the national average (rate per 1k is 9.87 compared to 3.76), so if you really can't fathom why anyone in that area would want a gated community after reading that I don't know what to tell you.

    As we all know, gates stop burglars!

    I've never understood why people build houses without walls and doors for this very reason - burglars are perplexed by barriers, it's a simple fix.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    That’s what he means

    You would think a lawyer would be more careful with the words he uses.

    I have a feeling his specialty is knowing the right amount to sue the insurance company for to get them to settle vs further litigation

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Former United States attorney general Jeff Sessions decided to remind everybody he is kind of really racist.

    Former WP correspondent:


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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    If those people wanted to keep their neighborhood private and gated they really should not allow the highest local public servant live there.

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited June 30
    When I was canvassing I had more than a couple people tell me they'd kill me for walking up their driveway and knocking on their door with a clipboard at 7PM. People should never do that! At least no one brandished a gun at me, I guess.

    A protest passing your house is not a reason to threaten to murder people. A protest stepping on your lawn is no reason to threaten to murder people.

    Edit: also that road is "private" to car traffic I think but it is a public street open to the public for foot traffic. The gate and signage is some rich person put a bunch of signs and barriers up in front of your chunk of the public beach bullshit.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    St. Louis burglary rates are almost three times higher than the national average (rate per 1k is 9.87 compared to 3.76), so if you really can't fathom why anyone in that area would want a gated community after reading that I don't know what to tell you.

    What percentage of those burglaries do you suspect has taken place in that couple's community?

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  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I know it's not a laughing matter, but...

    mtkkg354szvq.jpg

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  • David WalgasDavid Walgas Registered User regular
    I don’t normally wish this, but man do I hope these two get a felony charge and lose the right to threaten people with their shitty guns. These people are the image of everything I dislike at the range when I go shooting. Just immeasurably stupid in every facet.

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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Doc wrote: »
    I know it's not a laughing matter, but...

    gq0njji.png

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    The difference between a burglary rate 9.87 per 1k is versus 3.76 per 1k would probably be indistinguishable to me if I were living there, and I want to know the rate if you are living in a non-gate middle or upper class community versus poorer area these people would never, ever live in.

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  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited June 30
    We really don't need Karen memes in this thread, especially ones that big.

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  • VanguardVanguard A wretched country of duskRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 30
    Couscous wrote: »
    The difference between a burglary rate 9.87 per 1k is versus 3.76 per 1k would probably be indistinguishable to me if I were living there, and I want to know the rate if you are living in a non-gate middle or upper class community versus poorer area these people would never, ever live in.

    The entire framing of this is nonsense.

    The majority of protests following this incident have been peaceful.

    The few, early incidents of any looting were concentrated in the initial days following the incident. I haven't personally seen any news story that definitively connects burglary with the BLM protests. Before anyone runs off to find examples, please refer to my first point.

    The use of the talking point "triple the national average" is shitty fear mongering meant to justify any response to the protests, no matter how excessive or violent.

    It's also a red herring - protests are not the reason this area has higher than the national average of burglaries, it's the failure of police. You know, the thing people are protesting?

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2020/06/29/couple-who-pointed-guns-at-protesters-release-statement-in-support-of-protesters

    Linked video shows the moment the man came out of his house. I'll just quote from the article
    In a clip from a livestream that was shared on social media, the large and loud crowd of protesters can be seen entering the gated neighborhood not by smashing a gate, but rather by opening it.

    The gate is opened by the first protester at the seven-second mark of the video, and more protesters file in behind him. Within seconds, Mark McCloskey's voice can be heard screaming from a house to the protesters' right, announcing that this is private property and yelling, "Get the hell out of my neighborhood!"

    At the 22-second mark, the person filming the video remarks that McCloskey has a gun.

    That would mean, if the account they told police is to be believed, it took a grand total of, at most, fifteen seconds from the moment they allegedly watched protesters break down a gate (which, again, they had not broken down but rather opened and walked through) for the following things to happen:

    -"[T]he victims advised the group that they were on a private street and trespassing and told them to leave."

    -"The group began yelling obscenities and threats of harm to both victims."

    -"[T]he victims observed multiple subjects who were armed, they then armed themselves."

    In an interview with KSDK, Mark McCloskey elaborated on what allegedly happened within those 15 seconds:

    [A]s soon as I said this is private property, those words enraged the crowd. Horde, absolute horde came through the now smashed-down gates coming right at the house. My house, my east patio was 40 feet from Portland Place Drive. And these people were right up in my face, scared to death. And then, I stood out there. The only thing we said is, "This is private property. Go back. Private property. Leave now."

    At that point, everybody got enraged. There were people wearing body armor. One person pulled out some loaded pistol magazine and clicked them together and said that you were next. We were threatened with our lives, threatened with a house being burned down, my office building being burned down, even our dog's life being threatened. It was, it was about as bad as it can get. I mean, those you know, I really thought it was storming the Bastille, that we would be dead and the house would be burned and there was nothing we could do about it.

    None of that can be heard in the video. What can be seen instead is McCloskey holding a gun and repeatedly screaming "private property" and "get out" while someone repeatedly responds "calm down" and others note that they are on the sidewalk.

    In the KSDK interview, McCloskey also says that he "was very, very careful I didn't point the rifle at anybody," which is also at odds with the video and photographic evidence.

    A photo shared by KMOV's Alexis Zotos shows that the gate to the community was indeed broken by someone at some point in time. But contrary to his statement, it does not appear it happened before McCloskey armed himself.

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    Having lived there I can confirm crime is not a trivial issue in St. Louis, my college campus in the same upmarket area was statistically the most violent in the nation when I attended 10 years ago. People were regularly carjacked or robbed on the street corner outside my apartment senior year. Breakins were quite common and psychologically speaking, while I wouldn't call it a climate of fear, there was a definite sense of "yes this will probably happen to me at some point" among residents.

  • Special KSpecial K Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    https://www.riverfronttimes.com/newsblog/2020/06/29/couple-who-pointed-guns-at-protesters-release-statement-in-support-of-protesters

    Linked video shows the moment the man came out of his house. I'll just quote from the article
    In a clip from a livestream that was shared on social media, the large and loud crowd of protesters can be seen entering the gated neighborhood not by smashing a gate, but rather by opening it....

    As per usual, the key is to make sure you record everything you can and get it backed up to the cloud.

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    He's trying the “they were coming right at us” justification, larding his bullshit with words like “horde” and “tide” because Tucker Carlson has stoked his paranoia to the point where he’s peeking through his curtains for the day when they come for him.

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  • Special KSpecial K Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    He's trying the “they were coming right at us” justification, larding his bullshit with words like “horde” and “tide” because Tucker Carlson has stoked his paranoia to the point where he’s peeking through his curtains for the day when they come for him.

    And also because even if he's a shitty lawyer, he knows he done fucked up being caught on video brandishing his gundick at people.

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  • TavTav Registered User regular
    i would be shocked if a home like that in a gated community didn't have a rake of security cameras monitoring it so I'm sure we'll see him provide load of evidence to back up his claims, right?

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Doc wrote: »
    I know it's not a laughing matter, but...

    gq0njji.png

    I legit can't tell if this is an edit of if Mike Mignolia just works stupid fast.

    In either case 10/10

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Special K wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    He's trying the “they were coming right at us” justification, larding his bullshit with words like “horde” and “tide” because Tucker Carlson has stoked his paranoia to the point where he’s peeking through his curtains for the day when they come for him.

    And also because even if he's a shitty lawyer, he knows he done fucked up being caught on video brandishing his gundick at people.

    Lawyers and cops always know the magic words to say. They just don’t seem to understand that it’s not nearly as effective when actual video evidence contradicts them.

    Also, just gonna reiterate, out of that six pages of shit, that to my knowledge there is not a single state in the US where you can use deadly force for a mere trespass on land...particularly a road with easements...before exercising an entire chain of other options first. Mayyybe Texas but I’m still skeptical. There’s really no doubt that their display of force was illegal. There’s only doubt whether the law will apply to them. It probably won’t.

    I mean the mayor is being protested because she read names and addresses of petitioners out live as a thinly veiled threat. Yeah, I don’t think I trust the mechanisms of justice in St. Louis.

    durandal4532
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    Tav wrote: »
    i would be shocked if a home like that in a gated community didn't have a rake of security cameras monitoring it so I'm sure we'll see him provide load of evidence to back up his claims, right?

    Oops! The DVR wasn't plugged in!

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    yeah that dude's got an expensive surveillance system and so do the neighbors, and weirdly none of them are going to be functional right now. Huh, strange.

    If there's any justice, the Ring twitter account will hang them out to dry after they claim their gear is busted.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    MorganV wrote: »
    That’s what he means

    You would think a lawyer would be more careful with the words he uses.

    Lawyers aren't magical fucking beings who, by dint of accreditation, are suddenly intelligent and rational.

    I disagree. I only know two. Hakk and SIG. Both clearly are.
    I mean I’m a lawyer and I’m an idiot, so there goes your thesis.

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  • HenroidHenroid Seize the Memes Registered User regular
    Well they learn from the best. Specifically the cops when they turn their body cams off.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    yeah that dude's got an expensive surveillance system and so do the neighbors, and weirdly none of them are going to be functional right now. Huh, strange.

    If there's any justice, the Ring twitter account will hang them out to dry after they claim their gear is busted.

    Tonight, on police FB groups, probably:
    ANTIFA JAMMING HOME SECURITY SYSTEMS?

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