[Social Media]: The Intersection Of Money, Policy, And Hate

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.
    Also, people generally kinda like to know in which situations someone can get into the datacenter and start pulling hard drives, and what exactly is installed on the servers.
    Turn out regulations are not only applicable, they are useful.
    I would much prefer it if my data was under EU regulations than USA regulations, but at least it's mostly under CND regulations.
    this is so entirely not a thing anymore in datacenters. Data is encrypted at rest, storage is virtualized and presented as contiguous when it's striped and stored redundantly... it's basically not possible to know any longer what data is "on the hard drive" you're pulling.



    schuss wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    Yes, this is why when you set up various cloud services you get to pick the physical location of your server. It's conceivable that this could be auto-optimized, though.

    You still get to pick the valid list of Availability Zones though. I'd be thoroughly shocked if any cloud provider automatically load balanced data across an ocean given all the hoops and potential liabilities.

    this is part of my objection to the idea that it's just easy to do etc. We're still, in 2020, relying on physical limitations as though they will matter. It's perfectly reasonable to imagine that in a decade this idea of needing to pick a region for your data and manage failover will be anachronistic and quaint. We're imagining a regulatory regime that assumes truths about the world that we are at the same time frantically rendering false. "You know where your data is located" is only barely technically true anymore, where at the beginning of the last decade it was largely true, and at the beginning of the millennium was so obviously the case that mentioning it sounded weird.

    Trying to argue that a nationality-based regulatory regime is possible because latency makes it impractical to configure it otherwise, is like arguing that pirating music is hard because the data is big and takes a long time to download.

    All those things are business decisions that can be made illegal. They aren't facts of nature.

    As successfully as making copyright violations, or pot, illegal. Fire away, see how you get on!
    They are facts of nature, as immutable as any of the rest. Technological progress won't be halted, we won't stop the increasing abstraction of computing resources without instituting authoritarian controls on ourselves that technologists will just ignore anyway, same as everyone ignored music downloads.

    Yes, technologists currently sit in the middle of the Ian Malcolm Problem. But what we're seeing is that people are becoming less willing to accept that as an answer. Again, nobody is asking for the halt of technological advancement - what is being asked is that it be done with an understanding of the problems it brings.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    schuss wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.
    Also, people generally kinda like to know in which situations someone can get into the datacenter and start pulling hard drives, and what exactly is installed on the servers.
    Turn out regulations are not only applicable, they are useful.
    I would much prefer it if my data was under EU regulations than USA regulations, but at least it's mostly under CND regulations.
    this is so entirely not a thing anymore in datacenters. Data is encrypted at rest, storage is virtualized and presented as contiguous when it's striped and stored redundantly... it's basically not possible to know any longer what data is "on the hard drive" you're pulling.



    schuss wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    Yes, this is why when you set up various cloud services you get to pick the physical location of your server. It's conceivable that this could be auto-optimized, though.

    You still get to pick the valid list of Availability Zones though. I'd be thoroughly shocked if any cloud provider automatically load balanced data across an ocean given all the hoops and potential liabilities.

    this is part of my objection to the idea that it's just easy to do etc. We're still, in 2020, relying on physical limitations as though they will matter. It's perfectly reasonable to imagine that in a decade this idea of needing to pick a region for your data and manage failover will be anachronistic and quaint. We're imagining a regulatory regime that assumes truths about the world that we are at the same time frantically rendering false. "You know where your data is located" is only barely technically true anymore, where at the beginning of the last decade it was largely true, and at the beginning of the millennium was so obviously the case that mentioning it sounded weird.

    Trying to argue that a nationality-based regulatory regime is possible because latency makes it impractical to configure it otherwise, is like arguing that pirating music is hard because the data is big and takes a long time to download.

    You can dream about a nationless world, but that ain't the one we live in. Every cloud provider has meaningful barriers between countries to prevent issues like this (including things like government contracts that specify in-country servers/utilization)- and while cloud technology has handed us a bazooka to deal with our infra problems, it has also forced all of us to revisit process and governance, as that needs to be really tight in a world where you can't fall back on trusted internal network access to save you from mistakenly leaking data.
    Will countryless/regionless failover eventually be a thing? Sure. Will it be overlain with common regulatory frameworks that share characteristics? If cloud providers don't want to absorb legal liability for their clients, absolutely. We're in a period of transition where privacy and data regulations are being solved piecemeal. At some point there will be common multi-country agreements around handling that will allow for common usage, but again - we ain't living in that world yet. We also still have fundamental data classification problems that are getting better, but it's still a definite work in progress.

    this is just the same as arguing that piracy isn't a problem because nobody wants to spend 4 hours downloading one song, though. Sure, we'll come up with some kind of regulatory framework but it won't actually stop anything, anymore than "you wouldn't download a car" stopped piracy. The fundamental nature of the systems we're building resist arbitrary regulation and standing up alternates is ever more trivial, which gets us back to my original point - there's no balance point where the regulatory regime is comprehensive and effective, but not authoritarian and oppressive. They come together and we continue to build systems where it's inherently true, then rely on the vanishing physical realm to keep the lid on resulting problems in the places that aren't China (where it still ain't working well). Reliance on the physical didn't work with piracy and it's not going to work with any of the rest of this either.

    Getting sued with GDPR fines or similar will absolutely stop you. Or letting all of your data out in a data breach that exposes your customers.
    Also, here's the thing you're railing against:
    To disable a Region

    Sign in to the AWS Management Console using administrative credentials with a policy that allows disabling Regions. To view an example policy that provides these permissions, see AWS: Allows Enabling and Disabling AWS Regions in the IAM User Guide.

    In the upper right corner of the console, choose your account name or number and then choose My Account.

    In the AWS Regions section, next to the name of the Region that you want to disable, choose Disable.

    In the dialog box, review the informational text and choose Disable Region.

    That's all you have to do to disable certain countries from being available for deployment and usage in AWS. If you're allowing people to develop and deploy with no level of central control on behalf of the company - you'll deserve whatever fines you get or resources that get hacked, as it means you have zero clue on how manage software and data in the cloud.
    Also, your statement of "there's no balance point where the regulatory regime is comprehensive and effective, but not authoritarian and oppressive" is an argument that there should be no regulations on internet/data at all. Data and personal information has value and should be protected - unless you make it somewhat of a big deal to leak it, no one will act to do so. You say that the physical realm won't work - it may not, but given all the controls available - why wouldn't you utilize them to optimize for your customer base and regulatory needs?
    I know this is a new concept and set of restrictions for a lot of on-prem software people that never had to deal with stuff, but it's part and parcel with participating in the global economy these days. Financial implications for this stuff are VERY real. GDPR alone allows 4% revenue fines. Do that math on what that would be for your company.

    mrondeauOrcaMoridin889
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Wired internet is easy to block because wires. Wireless internet is easy to disrupt. There is a significant limit to the amount of pirate internet stuff you can set up.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.
    Also, people generally kinda like to know in which situations someone can get into the datacenter and start pulling hard drives, and what exactly is installed on the servers.
    Turn out regulations are not only applicable, they are useful.
    I would much prefer it if my data was under EU regulations than USA regulations, but at least it's mostly under CND regulations.
    this is so entirely not a thing anymore in datacenters. Data is encrypted at rest, storage is virtualized and presented as contiguous when it's striped and stored redundantly... it's basically not possible to know any longer what data is "on the hard drive" you're pulling.



    schuss wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    Yes, this is why when you set up various cloud services you get to pick the physical location of your server. It's conceivable that this could be auto-optimized, though.

    You still get to pick the valid list of Availability Zones though. I'd be thoroughly shocked if any cloud provider automatically load balanced data across an ocean given all the hoops and potential liabilities.

    this is part of my objection to the idea that it's just easy to do etc. We're still, in 2020, relying on physical limitations as though they will matter. It's perfectly reasonable to imagine that in a decade this idea of needing to pick a region for your data and manage failover will be anachronistic and quaint. We're imagining a regulatory regime that assumes truths about the world that we are at the same time frantically rendering false. "You know where your data is located" is only barely technically true anymore, where at the beginning of the last decade it was largely true, and at the beginning of the millennium was so obviously the case that mentioning it sounded weird.

    Trying to argue that a nationality-based regulatory regime is possible because latency makes it impractical to configure it otherwise, is like arguing that pirating music is hard because the data is big and takes a long time to download.

    All those things are business decisions that can be made illegal. They aren't facts of nature.

    As successfully as making copyright violations, or pot, illegal. Fire away, see how you get on!
    They are facts of nature, as immutable as any of the rest. Technological progress won't be halted, we won't stop the increasing abstraction of computing resources without instituting authoritarian controls on ourselves that technologists will just ignore anyway, same as everyone ignored music downloads.

    GDPR exists and is being complied with...

    Like... I get that you abstract computer equipment but it’s not hard to place bounds on those abstractions. You may not know which hard drive a piece of data is on (likely because its on multiple) but you are likely to know which data center or data centers the data is at. At the very least every file does have a reference that coinsides precisely with the exact location of every piece of information that makes up the file. Determining where exactly each and every piece of a file is located in meatspace is roughly as simple as accessing the file, logging its access routine, and referencing the hard ware database.

    And every file that is chopped up and put on different serves does indeed have a system to determine how that happens. Complete with enough information to produce the exact meatspace location of every hard drive that catches any individual bit in the file.

    Throughput limits are not such that individual users require every data center in the world have and individual piece of their data. And throughout front end limits mean this will probably never happen.

    wbBv3fj.png
    Orca
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    How much time nowadays? With fiber optic infrastructure and other innovations, internet speeds continue to increase - by 30% in 2017. The US is currently way down the list in internet speeds, beat out by multiple island countries in asia and random eastern European countries. We are not on the cutting edge of connectivity here, and I have to wonder if location is actually a make or break issue from an international perspective.

    You can't beat the speed of light for latency. You can for throughput: try a 747 full of micro SD cards sometime. But the speed of light limits your latency, which means there is always benefit to trying to be as close to the thing you're trying to send to as possible.

    But the speed of light is actually kind of fast? Like 67 milliseconds to reach the other side of the world if I calculated correctly?

    That's the theoretical physical limit if you shined a light that distance. It's not the easy though, you need to re-transmit it to maintain the signal which adds delay. It's running through a number of networks, which adds delay. When I've gamed on EU servers, my lag is typically 200+ms. That's 200ms for a request-response and no time to actually do something useful with the data.

    Possibly a chunk comes from our own network infrastructure problems, but how many huge marketshare applications need to be in the same country to work well?

    All of them. In fact, many countries are too big, and have to be split into regions.

    Nope. Amazon pretty successfully serves the world from: US, Brazil, Ireland, Germany, Australia, China, Singapore, Japan

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    edited July 17
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Wired internet is easy to block because wires. Wireless internet is easy to disrupt. There is a significant limit to the amount of pirate internet stuff you can set up.

    How easy is wireless to disrupt without affecting legal service?

    Paladin on
    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    How much time nowadays? With fiber optic infrastructure and other innovations, internet speeds continue to increase - by 30% in 2017. The US is currently way down the list in internet speeds, beat out by multiple island countries in asia and random eastern European countries. We are not on the cutting edge of connectivity here, and I have to wonder if location is actually a make or break issue from an international perspective.

    You can't beat the speed of light for latency. You can for throughput: try a 747 full of micro SD cards sometime. But the speed of light limits your latency, which means there is always benefit to trying to be as close to the thing you're trying to send to as possible.

    But the speed of light is actually kind of fast? Like 67 milliseconds to reach the other side of the world if I calculated correctly?

    That's the theoretical physical limit if you shined a light that distance. It's not the easy though, you need to re-transmit it to maintain the signal which adds delay. It's running through a number of networks, which adds delay. When I've gamed on EU servers, my lag is typically 200+ms. That's 200ms for a request-response and no time to actually do something useful with the data.

    Possibly a chunk comes from our own network infrastructure problems, but how many huge marketshare applications need to be in the same country to work well?

    All of them. In fact, many countries are too big, and have to be split into regions.

    Nope. Amazon pretty successfully serves the world from: US, Brazil, Ireland, Germany, Australia, China, Singapore, Japan

    I mean, the devil's in the details on this one. You can easily make apps that work well load-balanced across the world, just as you can easily make apps that struggle in a single country.

    spool32Moridin889
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Like all other forms of regulations, it's easy to bypass if no one cares. Bootlegging is trivial, where the government does not care.
    Even in developed countries with a strong and effective state, you have people technically not reporting incomes, or selling food without health inspections.
    No one cares because it's small scale, so no one try to prevent it. It's just not worth it. This is not different from the internet.
    People get away with piracy because it's not worth the effort to stamp it down completely. Just like in real life.

    Stuff like the GDPR is not targeting everything, nor is it trying to.
    But if twitter tries to ignore regulations for a country, well, they will at the very least have no income from that country. It would actually cost them money to have users from the country.
    And that's assuming they cannot be fined for some reason.

    Orca
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Wired internet is easy to block because wires. Wireless internet is easy to disrupt. There is a significant limit to the amount of pirate internet stuff you can set up.

    How easy is wireless to disrupt without affecting legal service?

    You can trace wireless signals, so you can straight up arrest people and destroy their equipment.

    You can jam radio signals selectively. You could maybe try to make a pirate signal as close to a legal signal as possible, but then you'd be getting interference from it.

    mrondeauOrca
  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    How much time nowadays? With fiber optic infrastructure and other innovations, internet speeds continue to increase - by 30% in 2017. The US is currently way down the list in internet speeds, beat out by multiple island countries in asia and random eastern European countries. We are not on the cutting edge of connectivity here, and I have to wonder if location is actually a make or break issue from an international perspective.
    It's not so much bandwidth as latency. The number of switches, and the actual speed of light. 7.5 times around the Earth sounds impressive, but 260ms is a terrible ping.

    260ms is a totally fine ping, kids today just don't know how to lead their targets because they are soft

    In my day we played Rocket Arena with 400ms, uphill, in the rain

    uH3IcEi.png
    EddyMartini_PhilosopherElvenshaeDiannaoChongMrVyngaardHefflingMoridin889Man in the MistsEcho
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    How much time nowadays? With fiber optic infrastructure and other innovations, internet speeds continue to increase - by 30% in 2017. The US is currently way down the list in internet speeds, beat out by multiple island countries in asia and random eastern European countries. We are not on the cutting edge of connectivity here, and I have to wonder if location is actually a make or break issue from an international perspective.
    It's not so much bandwidth as latency. The number of switches, and the actual speed of light. 7.5 times around the Earth sounds impressive, but 260ms is a terrible ping.

    260ms is a totally fine ping, kids today just don't know how to lead their targets because they are soft

    In my day we played Rocket Arena with 400ms, uphill, in the rain
    I used to live in the woods, with long phone lines affected by the wind. I would have killed for a reliable 400ms ping.

    MonwynCelestialBadger
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.
    Also, people generally kinda like to know in which situations someone can get into the datacenter and start pulling hard drives, and what exactly is installed on the servers.
    Turn out regulations are not only applicable, they are useful.
    I would much prefer it if my data was under EU regulations than USA regulations, but at least it's mostly under CND regulations.
    this is so entirely not a thing anymore in datacenters. Data is encrypted at rest, storage is virtualized and presented as contiguous when it's striped and stored redundantly... it's basically not possible to know any longer what data is "on the hard drive" you're pulling.



    schuss wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    Yes, this is why when you set up various cloud services you get to pick the physical location of your server. It's conceivable that this could be auto-optimized, though.

    You still get to pick the valid list of Availability Zones though. I'd be thoroughly shocked if any cloud provider automatically load balanced data across an ocean given all the hoops and potential liabilities.

    this is part of my objection to the idea that it's just easy to do etc. We're still, in 2020, relying on physical limitations as though they will matter. It's perfectly reasonable to imagine that in a decade this idea of needing to pick a region for your data and manage failover will be anachronistic and quaint. We're imagining a regulatory regime that assumes truths about the world that we are at the same time frantically rendering false. "You know where your data is located" is only barely technically true anymore, where at the beginning of the last decade it was largely true, and at the beginning of the millennium was so obviously the case that mentioning it sounded weird.

    Trying to argue that a nationality-based regulatory regime is possible because latency makes it impractical to configure it otherwise, is like arguing that pirating music is hard because the data is big and takes a long time to download.

    All those things are business decisions that can be made illegal. They aren't facts of nature.

    As successfully as making copyright violations, or pot, illegal. Fire away, see how you get on!
    They are facts of nature, as immutable as any of the rest. Technological progress won't be halted, we won't stop the increasing abstraction of computing resources without instituting authoritarian controls on ourselves that technologists will just ignore anyway, same as everyone ignored music downloads.

    It's a matter of prioritization. You can flout the law flagrantly if no one calls you on your shit: see also AirBnB and Uber. On the flip side, if we really don't want you to do something, there WILL be consequences. It took a long time for Amazon to start charging sales tax because of the competitive advantage it gave them, but guess what--when push came to shove, they complied.

    Even TOR isn't freedom from consequences given how few exit nodes there are.

    Again, this all requires physical equipment in the real world. Just because it makes the implementer's life easier to not think about these issues doesn't mean they can ignore the laws surrounding the places they're doing business.

    mrondeau
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Oh yea well before they moved the league servers my ping was 7!

    wbBv3fj.png
    Captain InertiaIncenjucarPenumbra
  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Monwyn wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    How much time nowadays? With fiber optic infrastructure and other innovations, internet speeds continue to increase - by 30% in 2017. The US is currently way down the list in internet speeds, beat out by multiple island countries in asia and random eastern European countries. We are not on the cutting edge of connectivity here, and I have to wonder if location is actually a make or break issue from an international perspective.
    It's not so much bandwidth as latency. The number of switches, and the actual speed of light. 7.5 times around the Earth sounds impressive, but 260ms is a terrible ping.

    260ms is a totally fine ping, kids today just don't know how to lead their targets because they are soft

    In my day we played Rocket Arena with 400ms, uphill, in the rain
    I used to live in the woods, with long phone lines affected by the wind. I would have killed for a reliable 400ms ping.

    I'm actually low-key terrible at online FPS now because I instinctively aim 1.5 hitboxes in front of the target

    uH3IcEi.png
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    I don't think you all are saying anything that disproves any if the points made. The GDPR is being enforced because people have broadly agreed to enforce it. Countries outside the EU have no real objection to it, and big firms find it less burdensome to comply than try to subvert it. But that doesn't mean that is true in other circumstances or will continue to be so. For example, the most countries are not willing to enable China's state censorship, and corporations flip flop on the matter. Thus, China has had to resort to tightly controlling the interface between it's internal network and international ones. Which mostly works but also limits the extent to which it can benefit from the global internet. And thus China has also been growing it's own social media services and other technologies for it's own use, which now are running into issues when they try to expand outside China.

    What happens if WeChat actually gets a western audience and when the EU starts going on about the GDPR or the US about whatever regulations it's imposed on Facebook, and China just tells them to fuck off? What happens when the US is telling Facebook it has to give equal time to Nazis and Germany is telling it is had to get rid of Nazis? What happena when some rogue state decides fuck western capitalism and refuses to do anything about DMCA complaints?

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
    spool32
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    What happens if WeChat actually gets a western audience and when the EU starts going on about the GDPR or the US about whatever regulations it's imposed on Facebook, and China just tells them to fuck off? What happens when the US is telling Facebook it has to give equal time to Nazis and Germany is telling it is had to get rid of Nazis? What happena when some rogue state decides fuck western capitalism and refuses to do anything about DMCA complaints?
    1. In that case, WeChat does not get to have a western audience.
    2. This is already happening. Germany does not have the same facebook as the USA, because of this.
    3. This is already not happening, because the DMCA is an USA law, and other countries don't enforce it.

    EddyOrcaElvenshaeMoridin889Man in the Mists
  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    All these arguments over 5g and fibre and such just further sting the backwoods small-town Canadian internet I have.

    Pretty sure it's run on a network of tin cans and string

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Ludditeism (?) starting to look more appealing

    EddyOrca
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    I'm thinking either facebook and the like alter their service and it still exists if they have no bottom line with their current regulatory status in the US, or getting pressured from all sides pops them like a zit

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    What happens if WeChat actually gets a western audience and when the EU starts going on about the GDPR or the US about whatever regulations it's imposed on Facebook, and China just tells them to fuck off? What happens when the US is telling Facebook it has to give equal time to Nazis and Germany is telling it is had to get rid of Nazis? What happena when some rogue state decides fuck western capitalism and refuses to do anything about DMCA complaints?
    1. In that case, WeChat does not get to have a western audience.
    2. This is already happening. Germany does not have the same facebook as the USA, because of this.
    3. This is already not happening, because the DMCA is an USA law, and other countries don't enforce it.

    Sure they do, we're not going to make it a crime to use wechat, nor are we going to firewall its servers

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    edited July 17
    Phyphor wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    What happens if WeChat actually gets a western audience and when the EU starts going on about the GDPR or the US about whatever regulations it's imposed on Facebook, and China just tells them to fuck off? What happens when the US is telling Facebook it has to give equal time to Nazis and Germany is telling it is had to get rid of Nazis? What happena when some rogue state decides fuck western capitalism and refuses to do anything about DMCA complaints?
    1. In that case, WeChat does not get to have a western audience.
    2. This is already happening. Germany does not have the same facebook as the USA, because of this.
    3. This is already not happening, because the DMCA is an USA law, and other countries don't enforce it.

    Sure they do, we're not going to make it a crime to use wechat, nor are we going to firewall its servers

    So basically it will be like BitTorrent for social media?

    Paladin on
    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    I feel like I’ve lost the thread here. What are we trying to legislate, specifically? What are we trying to codify and enforce?

    DiannaoChong
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Ludditeism (?) starting to look more appealing

    (Luddism)
    I feel like I’ve lost the thread here. What are we trying to legislate, specifically? What are we trying to codify and enforce?

    More of a high level discussion on the feasibility and mechanics of internet regulation, currently, but I believe transparency of content promotion methods was the jumping off point.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Can I say that I hate the term Luddite? It's anti-worker propaganda that's been so normalized that people don't realize it.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.
    Also, people generally kinda like to know in which situations someone can get into the datacenter and start pulling hard drives, and what exactly is installed on the servers.
    Turn out regulations are not only applicable, they are useful.
    I would much prefer it if my data was under EU regulations than USA regulations, but at least it's mostly under CND regulations.
    this is so entirely not a thing anymore in datacenters. Data is encrypted at rest, storage is virtualized and presented as contiguous when it's striped and stored redundantly... it's basically not possible to know any longer what data is "on the hard drive" you're pulling.



    schuss wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Electricity takes time to move between two locations. Data is going to be processed in the nearest and same location if at all possible because otherwise the lag is going to be horrible.

    Yes, this is why when you set up various cloud services you get to pick the physical location of your server. It's conceivable that this could be auto-optimized, though.

    You still get to pick the valid list of Availability Zones though. I'd be thoroughly shocked if any cloud provider automatically load balanced data across an ocean given all the hoops and potential liabilities.

    this is part of my objection to the idea that it's just easy to do etc. We're still, in 2020, relying on physical limitations as though they will matter. It's perfectly reasonable to imagine that in a decade this idea of needing to pick a region for your data and manage failover will be anachronistic and quaint. We're imagining a regulatory regime that assumes truths about the world that we are at the same time frantically rendering false. "You know where your data is located" is only barely technically true anymore, where at the beginning of the last decade it was largely true, and at the beginning of the millennium was so obviously the case that mentioning it sounded weird.

    Trying to argue that a nationality-based regulatory regime is possible because latency makes it impractical to configure it otherwise, is like arguing that pirating music is hard because the data is big and takes a long time to download.

    All those things are business decisions that can be made illegal. They aren't facts of nature.

    As successfully as making copyright violations, or pot, illegal. Fire away, see how you get on!
    They are facts of nature, as immutable as any of the rest. Technological progress won't be halted, we won't stop the increasing abstraction of computing resources without instituting authoritarian controls on ourselves that technologists will just ignore anyway, same as everyone ignored music downloads.

    It's a matter of prioritization. You can flout the law flagrantly if no one calls you on your shit: see also AirBnB and Uber. On the flip side, if we really don't want you to do something, there WILL be consequences. It took a long time for Amazon to start charging sales tax because of the competitive advantage it gave them, but guess what--when push came to shove, they complied.

    Even TOR isn't freedom from consequences given how few exit nodes there are.

    Again, this all requires physical equipment in the real world. Just because it makes the implementer's life easier to not think about these issues doesn't mean they can ignore the laws surrounding the places they're doing business.

    Point of order: Amazon complies in exchange for permission to build distribution centers with tax breaks worth more than the tax revenue they were collecting. Push did not in fact come to shove, the States blinked because ultimately having the biggest company comply is worth any price.

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Can I say that I hate the term Luddite? It's anti-worker propaganda that's been so normalized that people don't realize it.

    When self-applied it's also often synonymous with "I'm actively ignorant and actively proud of this fact," which is obnoxious for its own reasons.

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  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    edited July 18
    My first CS professor earnestly introduced themselves as a Luddite on the first day of class :rotate:

    Carpy on
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  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Carpy wrote: »
    My first CS professor earnestly introduced themselves as a Luddite on the first day of class :rotate:

    I mean, prolonged technology exposure will do that.

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  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    edited July 19
    Carpy wrote: »
    My first CS professor earnestly introduced themselves as a Luddite on the first day of class :rotate:

    Theres that old adage about different between a gadget person/tech enthusiast and the programmer
    Enthusiast: Everything I own is wired to the internet of things, I control it from my smartphone, my smart house is BT enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future!

    Programmer: I have a printer from 2004 and a handgun in case it makes a noise I don't like

    Also about the more you learn about science, the more you learn to trust it and its reliability, except the inverse is true about programming.

    edit: went further off topic, slimming down post cuz I thought it was a different thread

    DiannaoChong on
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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Yeah. Embedded firmware engineer here and if I could I would rip bluetooth out of my car, I will never buy a smart lock or smart home (MAYBE I'll get smart parts if they're fully wired and air-gapped), and fuck bluetooth laundry machines as convenient as they are.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    Yeah. Embedded firmware engineer here and if I could I would rip bluetooth out of my car, I will never buy a smart lock or smart home (MAYBE I'll get smart parts if they're fully wired and air-gapped), and fuck bluetooth laundry machines as convenient as they are.

    :):)

    Enthusiast here, angry that I can't install a smartlock on my apartment door and wishing I could voice control the windowblinds without spending so much.

    NobeardCelestialBadger
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    Carpy wrote: »
    My first CS professor earnestly introduced themselves as a Luddite on the first day of class :rotate:

    Theres that old adage about different between a gadget person/tech enthusiast and the programmer
    Enthusiast: Everything I own is wired to the internet of things, I control it from my smartphone, my smart house is BT enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future!

    Programmer: I have a printer from 2004 and a handgun in case it makes a noise I don't like

    Also about the more you learn about science, the more you learn to trust it and its reliability, except the inverse is true about programming.

    edit: went further off topic, slimming down post cuz I thought it was a different thread

    N...not sure about this one

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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Yeah. Embedded firmware engineer here and if I could I would rip bluetooth out of my car, I will never buy a smart lock or smart home (MAYBE I'll get smart parts if they're fully wired and air-gapped), and fuck bluetooth laundry machines as convenient as they are.

    :):)

    Enthusiast here, angry that I can't install a smartlock on my apartment door and wishing I could voice control the windowblinds without spending so much.

    We bought Hue lights for a bunch of our rooms because it was easier and cheaper than having an electrician wire outlets to the switches directly. Yelling at Alexa/Google to turn the lights on and off is novel the first few times, but I bought Hue switches for every room within a week of putting the lights in. It gets old real fucking fast.

    Also fuck smartlocks.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Carpy wrote: »
    My first CS professor earnestly introduced themselves as a Luddite on the first day of class :rotate:

    Theres that old adage about different between a gadget person/tech enthusiast and the programmer
    Enthusiast: Everything I own is wired to the internet of things, I control it from my smartphone, my smart house is BT enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future!

    Programmer: I have a printer from 2004 and a handgun in case it makes a noise I don't like

    Also about the more you learn about science, the more you learn to trust it and its reliability, except the inverse is true about programming.

    edit: went further off topic, slimming down post cuz I thought it was a different thread

    N...not sure about this one

    Computers are exactly as dumb as their programmers, and programmers are merely human. People have a lot of faith in computers for some reason.

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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Carpy wrote: »
    My first CS professor earnestly introduced themselves as a Luddite on the first day of class :rotate:

    Theres that old adage about different between a gadget person/tech enthusiast and the programmer
    Enthusiast: Everything I own is wired to the internet of things, I control it from my smartphone, my smart house is BT enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future!

    Programmer: I have a printer from 2004 and a handgun in case it makes a noise I don't like

    Also about the more you learn about science, the more you learn to trust it and its reliability, except the inverse is true about programming.

    edit: went further off topic, slimming down post cuz I thought it was a different thread

    N...not sure about this one

    Computers are exactly as dumb as their programmers, and programmers are merely human. People have a lot of faith in computers for some reason.

    Because we're still dumb apes and most of us think that the box is magic.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Yeah. Embedded firmware engineer here and if I could I would rip bluetooth out of my car, I will never buy a smart lock or smart home (MAYBE I'll get smart parts if they're fully wired and air-gapped), and fuck bluetooth laundry machines as convenient as they are.

    :):)

    Enthusiast here, angry that I can't install a smartlock on my apartment door and wishing I could voice control the windowblinds without spending so much.

    We bought Hue lights for a bunch of our rooms because it was easier and cheaper than having an electrician wire outlets to the switches directly. Yelling at Alexa/Google to turn the lights on and off is novel the first few times, but I bought Hue switches for every room within a week of putting the lights in. It gets old real fucking fast.

    Also fuck smartlocks.

    Smartlocks are the way and the light. Easily the most convenient and useful smart home device on the market! Anybody who is gonna go to the trouble to hack your smartlock is already sufficiently motivated to get in by other means. :)


    If I could tie my hue lights to a twitch stream I'd do it in an instant.

    Elvenshae
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Yeah. Embedded firmware engineer here and if I could I would rip bluetooth out of my car, I will never buy a smart lock or smart home (MAYBE I'll get smart parts if they're fully wired and air-gapped), and fuck bluetooth laundry machines as convenient as they are.

    :):)

    Enthusiast here, angry that I can't install a smartlock on my apartment door and wishing I could voice control the windowblinds without spending so much.

    We bought Hue lights for a bunch of our rooms because it was easier and cheaper than having an electrician wire outlets to the switches directly. Yelling at Alexa/Google to turn the lights on and off is novel the first few times, but I bought Hue switches for every room within a week of putting the lights in. It gets old real fucking fast.

    Also fuck smartlocks.

    Smartlocks are the way and the light. Easily the most convenient and useful smart home device on the market! Anybody who is gonna go to the trouble to hack your smartlock is already sufficiently motivated to get in by other means. :)


    If I could tie my hue lights to a twitch stream I'd do it in an instant.

    I've watched way to many LockpickingLawyer videos where he opens up a smart lock with like a lego minifig to trust those things.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    I make computer hardware for a living.

    You should take all those thoughts about insecurity of software and apply them to hardware, too.

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  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Carpy wrote: »
    My first CS professor earnestly introduced themselves as a Luddite on the first day of class :rotate:

    Theres that old adage about different between a gadget person/tech enthusiast and the programmer
    Enthusiast: Everything I own is wired to the internet of things, I control it from my smartphone, my smart house is BT enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future!

    Programmer: I have a printer from 2004 and a handgun in case it makes a noise I don't like

    Also about the more you learn about science, the more you learn to trust it and its reliability, except the inverse is true about programming.

    edit: went further off topic, slimming down post cuz I thought it was a different thread

    N...not sure about this one

    Friend of mine got hired to work for BIG_CORP out of college and was on the team responsible for doing a code review prior to porting stuff over to a framework that hadn't been deprecated for thirty years and didn't require doing hacky bullshit to keep running.

    The number of functions that had some variation on /*I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS WORKS BUT IT DOES, DON'T FUCKING TOUCH IT OR WE'LL PROBABLY ALL DIE*/ slapped above the defines - and which, crucially, nobody on his team could figure out why it worked either - was enough to keep him up at night.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    Yeah. Embedded firmware engineer here and if I could I would rip bluetooth out of my car, I will never buy a smart lock or smart home (MAYBE I'll get smart parts if they're fully wired and air-gapped), and fuck bluetooth laundry machines as convenient as they are.

    :):)

    Enthusiast here, angry that I can't install a smartlock on my apartment door and wishing I could voice control the windowblinds without spending so much.

    We bought Hue lights for a bunch of our rooms because it was easier and cheaper than having an electrician wire outlets to the switches directly. Yelling at Alexa/Google to turn the lights on and off is novel the first few times, but I bought Hue switches for every room within a week of putting the lights in. It gets old real fucking fast.

    Also fuck smartlocks.

    Smartlocks are the way and the light. Easily the most convenient and useful smart home device on the market! Anybody who is gonna go to the trouble to hack your smartlock is already sufficiently motivated to get in by other means. :)


    If I could tie my hue lights to a twitch stream I'd do it in an instant.

    I've watched way to many LockpickingLawyer videos where he opens up a smart lock with like a lego minifig to trust those things.

    From the outside it’s just a deadbolt! Besides, I can’t hear you over the sound of my front door unlocking automatically while I walk up to it with my arms full of groceries. :)

    ElvenshaeColanut
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