WE are family [Canadian Politics Thread]

KetBraKetBra Dressed RidiculouslyRegistered User regular
edited August 4 in Debate and/or Discourse
Look I'd make a fancy OP but whatever here's Justin Trudeau with a Beard

justin-trudeau-un-security-council.jpg?quality=85&w=1024&h=628&crop=1

Hopefully by the time this thread is over we won't have to be worrying about pandemics anymore.

Presumably because some new horror has supplanted it, but someone's gotta wish on that monkey's paw.

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Look I'd make a fancy OP but whatever here's Justin Trudeau with a Beard

    justin-trudeau-un-security-council.jpg?quality=85&w=1024&h=628&crop=1

    Hopefully by the time this thread is over we won't have to be worrying about pandemics anymore.

    Presumably because some new horror has supplanted it, but someone's gotta wish on that monkey's paw.

    Short of trump winning the election and declaring emminent domain on our ground water I can't fathom this getting worse.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Look I'd make a fancy OP but whatever here's Justin Trudeau with a Beard

    justin-trudeau-un-security-council.jpg?quality=85&w=1024&h=628&crop=1

    Hopefully by the time this thread is over we won't have to be worrying about pandemics anymore.

    Presumably because some new horror has supplanted it, but someone's gotta wish on that monkey's paw.

    Short of trump winning the election and declaring emminent domain on our ground water I can't fathom this getting worse.

    Don't give him ideas in 2020 year of the monkey paw!

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  • Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    Sooo... if Trump wins in November, are we Poland, Belgium, or France in that scenario?

    I keed, I keed, I.... *sigh*

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  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    So lots of stuff going on in Alberta as the UCP continue their push to privatize health care and their continuing grab for more power so they can better keep Alberta in Canada..."wink wink"


    We have Bill 24 which is a Covid-19 related bill that removes some powers but extends others. There is a criticism that I have seen passed around from the JCCF Justice Center for Constitutional Freedom. But looking into them they appear swing over to the MUH FREEDUMS!! side so take it with a grain of salt.

    Bill 24 - https://docs.assembly.ab.ca/LADDAR_files/docs/bills/bill/legislature_30/session_2/20200225_bill-024.pdf
    JCCF Criticism (unfortunately they dont point out the parts of the bill that they are concerned about, and I have no idea what half of the stuff means in it either) - https://www.jccf.ca/justice-centre-challenges-albertas-new-bill-24-as-one-more-dangerous-authoritarian-law/



    Bill 26 changes how referendums are done in Alberta and what can be put onto referendum.. oh and changes rules on 3rd party donations.

    Bill 26 - https://docs.assembly.ab.ca/LADDAR_files/docs/bills/bill/legislature_30/session_2/20200225_bill-026.pdf
    Global news article - https://globalnews.ca/news/7100022/alberta-referendum-bill-kenney-ucp-ndp/




    Bill 29 changes how donations to candidates work, how much can be donated and the need for disclosure of who is donating. Not at all concerning...

    Bill 26 -https://docs.assembly.ab.ca/LADDAR_files/docs/bills/bill/legislature_30/session_2/20200225_bill-029.pdf
    CBC artical on it - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/new-bill-removes-limits-on-donations-to-trustee-municipal-candidates-in-alberta-1.5625799



    We have a big one in Bill 30 an Omnibus bill that makes some big changes, just introduced on the 6th and the full extent of what it can do hasn't quite been parsed yet. It opens the way for more private companies to come in.

    Press release here - https://www.alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=72759790EE80B-0A15-1E9B-F71163657CCCCA0A
    Bill 30 here - https://docs.assembly.ab.ca/LADDAR_files/docs/bills/bill/legislature_30/session_2/20200225_bill-030.pdf
    Criticism here - https://albertapolitics.ca/2020/07/bill-30-the-ucps-health-care-omnibus-bill-is-bad-but-not-as-bad-as-it-could-have-been/



    NDP put forth a few private member bills - Bill 202 which would have changed the Conflict of Interest rules (which are garbage here in Alberta) that died during first reading, not surprisingly.

    Bill 202 - https://docs.assembly.ab.ca/LADDAR_files/docs/bills/bill/legislature_30/session_2/20200225_bill-202.pdf

    As well Bill 203 which was made to protect the pensions of public servants in Alberta after the UCP moved many of the pensions under Aimco control who then reported a few billions of dollars lost in their portfolio....

    Bill 203 - https://docs.assembly.ab.ca/LADDAR_files/docs/bills/bill/legislature_30/session_2/20200225_bill-203.pdf
    Not sure what the status is of it... looks like it made it through first reading then the UCP got all pissy called a point of order and that was about it for 203 that I could find.


    so... yea.. good times here in Alberta.

  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Sooo... if Trump wins in November, are we Poland, Belgium, or France in that scenario?

    I keed, I keed, I.... *sigh*

    Poland got invaded from two sides, but we only have to worry about one.
    France had a chance, but got stabbed in the back by incompetent generals and fascists.
    Belgium was, basically, fucked with no chance of holding.

    We are Belgium, with less linguistic conflicts, and a slightly better record when it comes to crime against humanity, but neither are exactly high bars.
    On the other hand, worse BDs, but that one is a very high bar.

  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Sooo... if Trump wins in November, are we Poland, Belgium, or France in that scenario?

    I keed, I keed, I.... *sigh*

    Poland got invaded from two sides, but we only have to worry about one.
    France had a chance, but got stabbed in the back by incompetent generals and fascists.
    Belgium was, basically, fucked with no chance of holding.

    We are Belgium, with less linguistic conflicts, and a slightly better record when it comes to crime against humanity, but neither are exactly high bars.
    On the other hand, worse BDs, but that one is a very high bar.

    Russia eyeing the resources in our section of the north pole would like to have a word with you.

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited July 8
    Richy wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Sooo... if Trump wins in November, are we Poland, Belgium, or France in that scenario?

    I keed, I keed, I.... *sigh*

    Poland got invaded from two sides, but we only have to worry about one.
    France had a chance, but got stabbed in the back by incompetent generals and fascists.
    Belgium was, basically, fucked with no chance of holding.

    We are Belgium, with less linguistic conflicts, and a slightly better record when it comes to crime against humanity, but neither are exactly high bars.
    On the other hand, worse BDs, but that one is a very high bar.

    Russia eyeing the resources in our section of the north pole would like to have a word with you.

    I almost mentioned it, but the good news is that we have at least a few years of global warming before that invasion route is practical.

    EDIT:
    Ironically, this would place us in a position orthogonal to Poland's: their plan was to hold against an attack from the west and move back towards defensive positions in the East, with rivers in the way of the attackers.
    Then hold as long as possible, until France and the UK mobilize and open an other front. This was almost working, then the Soviet Union attacked from the East...

    mrondeau on
  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    A Trump re-election combined with his continuing non-response to the Covid crisis would likely further erode the US' position as the undisputed global super leader. They would still likely remain on top because of their inherent built in advantages, but their position will likely be much less dominant as hopefully the rest of the world starts to figure out how to do things without involving them as much. Canada should position itself as a saner alternative to the US to the rest of the world and hopefully siphon off some of the goodwill that the US is intent on throwing away under Trump.

    mrondeauShivahnGaddez
  • The Cow KingThe Cow King whipper snapper Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    What if we don't try to do imperialism, we already do loads let's not add some more

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    I don't even know what Canada as the saner alternative to the US looks like?

    We need to start putting some aircraft carrier hulls in drydock or what

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I fail to see how "try to attract people and research labs, export culture, and have soft power we can use to keep things stable" is imperialism.

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    I mean, I'd agree with those, but let's not kid ourselves, we wouldn't be the saner alternative to the US, we're still a middle power.

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    I mean, I'd agree with those, but let's not kid ourselves, we wouldn't be the saner alternative to the US, we're still a middle power.

    Most of the US's power was cultural and scientific. Not military. Hollywood did much more to place the US on top than the US military ever did.
    With our approach to immigration, universities, economy, etc., we are actually in a good position to replace the US's cultural and scientific position.
    It's not automatic, nor trivial, but it's doable.

  • The Cow KingThe Cow King whipper snapper Registered User regular
    No I'm pretty sure the 800 military bases helped with that, Hollywood is good propaganda tho

    And your just asking for a wealth flow rearrangement still comes from the global south up to us, that's imperialism

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    What we lack are leaders with the vision to do it. On the right, Harper, Scheer, whoever will be next, and the party in general, do not want Canada to be a independent and respected world power. They want Canada to be a vassal state of the USA. On the left, Trudeau is many things, but a man of vision is not one of them. In fact I don't think the Liberals had a leader with an international vision for Canada since Chrétien. Further left, the NDP et al. are more focused on national policy than international, which is a fair thing to be focusing on, but won't give us a place on the international stage.

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    What we lack are leaders with the vision to do it. On the right, Harper, Scheer, whoever will be next, and the party in general, do not want Canada to be a independent and respected world power. They want Canada to be a vassal state of the USA. On the left, Trudeau is many things, but a man of vision is not one of them. In fact I don't think the Liberals had a leader with an international vision for Canada since Chrétien. Further left, the NDP et al. are more focused on national policy than international, which is a fair thing to be focusing on, but won't give us a place on the international stage.
    We need to find a way to bring back Pearson, then gestalt him with Chrétien, someone obsessed about funding research, and Singh.

  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    $340 billlion deficit. Thanks 'Rona!

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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    Honestly, I don't give a shit about the deficit. Government is not a business, and until the pandemic is over world wide, financial shit happens.

    :so_raven:
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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    The Covid deficit scare-mongering shit pisses me off.
    Of course we're in massive debt because of a global pandemic. It's not a little hiccup and there will be consequences.

    The unspoken "we shouldn't have spent that much, govt is bad" schtick out of the conservatives is just a shitty way to say you would have been fine with thousands of people dying. That was the alternative course of action. There wasn't a magic conservative way of saving money and people with this so fuck off.

    How we manage the recovery is a fair playing field for criticism but "the govt. shouldn't have gone into so much debt" is just fucking stupid.

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  • OmnomnomPancakeOmnomnomPancake OttawaRegistered User regular
    I have to wonder what the Tories woulda done. They talk a lot of shit, but would CERB be less with them in charge? More with the NDP?

    Criticism of crony nepotism aside, I genuinely wish the opposition would talk serious counters to whatever the Liberals are doing.

    But no we get this, ol' Pierre doing his attack-dog vitriol as usual, making some really great arguments. I mean, completely free of context as he usually is but:



    Poilievre is an MP for an Ottawa-area riding and a piece of shit with bad hot takes.

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    It's because it works. Conservatives just use the "fiscally responsible" moniker to justify all the heinous shit they want to do to people with less advantage and security.
    If we had harper I think we'd be dealing with the light version of what the USA is dealing with.
    We probably wouldn't have closed borders either now that I think about it so maybe it'd be full on shit show.

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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular

    Come on man.



    Trudeau's mom and brother have been paid to speak at WE events.

    :so_raven:
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  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    In the age of Trump, imagine caring about this level of "corruption"

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    In the age of Trump, imagine caring about this level of "corruption"
    I mean, I do, it's just that I think the conservatives would be even more corrupts, and, in all cases, would be much, much more destructive than whatever light corruption the LPC does.

    It's still stupid. Like, this is textbook level "what not to do" when dealing with contracts and conflicts of interest.
    Literally. They covered that in the engineering ethics classes, and when I did a summer internship for the federal government.

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    It would be cool if the Liberals could go like five minutes without shooting themselves in the foot

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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    I don't actually care about this level of stuff, but it's the optics and electoral implications that bother me.

    Like, there's just no reason to keep engaging in these stupid little things.

    :so_raven:
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Seriously.

    My girlfriend just wrote an email to introduce me to a company CEO she knows so I can pitch a research collaboration to him, and we made sure to say clearly and directly that we're in a relationship in the email. I've also setup a research collaboration with another company in the past that involved my brother, who is a fully-qualified researcher whose expertise was needed for the project, and the first thing I did is disclose the family relationship to the company. This is the most basic step to take to avoid an appearance of conflict-of-interest and favoritism.

    That the fucking Government of Canada cannot do as much is inexcusable and enraging.

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  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    It does not help that this is all shining a light on the WE charity itself and showing some pretty bad issues there as well.

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  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    The conflict of interest rules in Canada can be a bit nuts. A couple years back, Fisheries Minister Dominic LeBlanc got in trouble for awarding a fishing licence to a company his wife's cousin worked for.

    Giving a contract to your brother's construction company to build a government building. Yeah, conflict. But this is a bit outside of what I think the law should be concerned about. The Trudeaus don't actually work for WE, and technically got paid through an agency by ME to WE which isn't the same company, so we might now be heading into absurd territory where it's a conflict to award a contract to a company someone in your family has ever tangentially done business with, even if they don't necessarily stand to benefit. Like if your wife's nephew is a temp who sometimes works at Sam's Club in the US, then you can't be involved in the decision to give a contract to the WalMart Foundation charity.

  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Seriously.

    My girlfriend just wrote an email to introduce me to a company CEO she knows so I can pitch a research collaboration to him, and we made sure to say clearly and directly that we're in a relationship in the email. I've also setup a research collaboration with another company in the past that involved my brother, who is a fully-qualified researcher whose expertise was needed for the project, and the first thing I did is disclose the family relationship to the company. This is the most basic step to take to avoid an appearance of conflict-of-interest and favoritism.

    That the fucking Government of Canada cannot do as much is inexcusable and enraging.

    I think the government has an exponentially harder time trying to identify the potential conflicts of interest.

    As near as I can tell, there's no actual corrupt intent and there's nothing to support the idea that the decision itself was actually wrong, so... I guess the professional whiners can keep doing their thing.

  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    It's not actually complicated: you don't get to be part of the contract attribution process if you are involved with one of the candidates. It's actually trivial to avoid.

  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    It's not actually complicated: you don't get to be part of the contract attribution process if you are involved with one of the candidates. It's actually trivial to avoid.

    There was one candidate.

  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    It's not actually complicated: you don't get to be part of the contract attribution process if you are involved with one of the candidates. It's actually trivial to avoid.

    There was one candidate.
    Yes. That is, as we say, the fucking problem.

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    It's not actually complicated: you don't get to be part of the contract attribution process if you are involved with one of the candidates. It's actually trivial to avoid.

    There was one candidate.

    Here, I'll elaborate: This is how you get your optics issues.

    1) Ask underlings what your options are, and they tell you there's one option
    2) You choose the one option
    3) It never in a million years would occur to you that anyone could complain about that choice, so you don't bother to "recuse" yourself.

  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Tenek wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    It's not actually complicated: you don't get to be part of the contract attribution process if you are involved with one of the candidates. It's actually trivial to avoid.

    There was one candidate.
    Yes. That is, as we say, the fucking problem.

    How many organizations capable of running a billion-dollar program as part of the pandemic response are we supposed to have lying around?

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Jumping through additional hoops to justify sole-sourcing a contractor is pretty routine actually. Also, the conflict of interest checks and firewalls should have been put into place long before any discussions come up around sole-sourcing.

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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    Jumping through additional hoops to justify sole-sourcing a contractor is pretty routine actually. Also, the conflict of interest checks and firewalls should have been put into place long before any discussions come up around sole-sourcing.

    As a public sector worker with experience working in a supply chain department, yeah, explaining your soul sourcing is standard and required.

    :so_raven:
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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    Tenek wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    It's not actually complicated: you don't get to be part of the contract attribution process if you are involved with one of the candidates. It's actually trivial to avoid.

    There was one candidate.

    Here, I'll elaborate: This is how you get your optics issues.

    1) Ask underlings what your options are, and they tell you there's one option
    2) You choose the one option
    3) It never in a million years would occur to you that anyone could complain about that choice, so you don't bother to "recuse" yourself.
    This is also you get money from the government into your pocket.

    Also, no, there's more than one option. There's doing it directly, or using another charity.
    Also also, it's trivial to leave the room during that specific part of the Cabinet meeting.
    Like, this is really, really basic. So basic, we expect interns with no decision power to be able to do so if they have to make anything looking like a purchase request.

    AegisCanadianWolverine
  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    OK, you've convinced me. Maybe one of you can volunteer to work directly for Trudeau and point out all of this mistakes he's about to make beforehand so we can have the perfect government every opposition MP pretends they'd run.

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited July 9
    I would suggest that the government follow its own conflict of interest rules and sole-sourcing contract procedures when dealing with potential conflicts of interest and sole-sourced contracts.

    Companies don't spend all the time and money they do following these procedures just because they want to. Typically it is done to fulfill legal requirements or basic requirements to get a contract with the government.

    This is the source of frustration. They can't even manage to follow their own rules.

    Caedwyr on
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