WE are family [Canadian Politics Thread]

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  • BouwsTBouwsT Wanna come to a super soft birthday party? Registered User regular
    PD issues as apology.

    ​"On June 22, 2020, the Halton Regional Police Service was called to attend St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery in Oakville for graffiti to a monument in the cemetery. The initial information collected by investigators indicated that the graffiti may have been hate-motivated, targeting the identifiable group of Ukrainians in general, or Ukrainian members of this cultural centre. At no time did the Halton Regional Police Service consider that the identifiable group targeted by the graffiti was Nazis."

    Oh for reals, the graffiti saying "Nazi War Memorial" could possibly be referring to the military outfit being part of the literal SS? Seems like a leap... Better assume the graffiti is referencing ALL Ukranians. :rotate:

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  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    Clearly some intern in the Halton Regional Police Service managed to google the history of the division between June and now.

    We'll see how long this blog lasts
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Yeah, if you look you can see that all of the insignia are Ukrainian

    But I'm also pretty comfortable saying we probably shouldn't celebrate fighting with the nazis, even if it was against the soviets.

    The Soviets were our allies against the Nazis in WW2. We shouldn't be putting up monuments to people who fought our allies.

    sig.gif
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    It's Ukraine. You either gonna be fighting for the nazis against the soviets or for the soviets against the nazis. No other choice.

    As for hate crime, seems a bit of a stretch but I could see where people would take it personally. I'm sure the people spray-painting the thing probably just thought "Fuck Nazis", but I wouldn't be as sure how that is received by the people who put the thing up. Who presumably raised the thing to honour their own ancestors. It's actually hard to find info on when the thing went up and by whom currently but given the location I would almost certainly assume by the ukranian cultural centre's members. Initial stories say the police hadn't said what was painted on it so it may have ended up mistaken because it wasn't communicated up the chain or the like who exactly was being targeted by the graffiti. (ie - unclear if it was anti-nazi or anti-ukranian)

    And of course a lot of the larger issues end up mixed up with the .. let's say complicated stance a lot of eastern europe has on it's history during WW2.

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  • LordSolarMachariusLordSolarMacharius Red wine with fish Registered User regular
    edited July 17
    Richy wrote: »
    The Soviets were our allies against the Nazis in WW2. We shouldn't be putting up monuments to people who fought our allies.

    Anyone in that unit would have lived through the Ukrainian Genocide, so their want to fight the Soviets isn't hard to understand.

    The monument though, yeah, no need for that. Even if it's understandable why someone'd choose to join up with the Nazis to fight the Soviets, you gotta gloss over that personal history.

    LordSolarMacharius on
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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    The Soviets were our allies against the Nazis in WW2. We shouldn't be putting up monuments to people who fought our allies.

    Anyone in that unit would have lived through the Ukrainian Genocide, so their want to fight the Soviets isn't hard to understand.

    The monument though, yeah, no need for that. Even if it's understandable why someone'd choose to join up with the Nazis to fight the Soviets, you gotta gloss over that personal history.

    It's also ignoring that they were not limiting themselves to killing Soviet soldiers. Like all SS units, they were quick busy doing war crimes and a bit of genocide on the side.

    CanadianWolverine
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Soviets were our allies against the Nazis in WW2. We shouldn't be putting up monuments to people who fought our allies.

    Anyone in that unit would have lived through the Ukrainian Genocide, so their want to fight the Soviets isn't hard to understand.

    The monument though, yeah, no need for that. Even if it's understandable why someone'd choose to join up with the Nazis to fight the Soviets, you gotta gloss over that personal history.

    It's also ignoring that they were not limiting themselves to killing Soviet soldiers. Like all SS units, they were quick busy doing war crimes and a bit of genocide on the side.

    AFAIK it's not that simple.

    For instance, from wiki:
    The Canadian "Commission of Inquiry on War Crimes" of October 1986, by the Honourable Justice Jules Deschênes concluded that in relation to membership in the Galicia Division:

    The Galicia Division (14. Waffen grenadier division der SS [gal. #1]) should not be indicted as a group. The members of Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada. Charges of war crimes of Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission. Further, in the absence of evidence of participation or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution.

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  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Soviets were our allies against the Nazis in WW2. We shouldn't be putting up monuments to people who fought our allies.

    Anyone in that unit would have lived through the Ukrainian Genocide, so their want to fight the Soviets isn't hard to understand.

    The monument though, yeah, no need for that. Even if it's understandable why someone'd choose to join up with the Nazis to fight the Soviets, you gotta gloss over that personal history.

    It's also ignoring that they were not limiting themselves to killing Soviet soldiers. Like all SS units, they were quick busy doing war crimes and a bit of genocide on the side.

    AFAIK it's not that simple.

    For instance, from wiki:
    The Canadian "Commission of Inquiry on War Crimes" of October 1986, by the Honourable Justice Jules Deschênes concluded that in relation to membership in the Galicia Division:

    The Galicia Division (14. Waffen grenadier division der SS [gal. #1]) should not be indicted as a group. The members of Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada. Charges of war crimes of Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission. Further, in the absence of evidence of participation or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution.
    Read the rest of that section. Also, it's a German-affiliated division on the eastern front. They did war crimes. That's automatic. That was the whole objective of that campaign.
    Having or not having a monument is not the same thing as deciding if the whole division should have been Charlemagned. The standards of proof are different.

    The Cow KingZibblsnrt
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Soviets were our allies against the Nazis in WW2. We shouldn't be putting up monuments to people who fought our allies.

    Anyone in that unit would have lived through the Ukrainian Genocide, so their want to fight the Soviets isn't hard to understand.

    The monument though, yeah, no need for that. Even if it's understandable why someone'd choose to join up with the Nazis to fight the Soviets, you gotta gloss over that personal history.

    It's also ignoring that they were not limiting themselves to killing Soviet soldiers. Like all SS units, they were quick busy doing war crimes and a bit of genocide on the side.

    AFAIK it's not that simple.

    For instance, from wiki:
    The Canadian "Commission of Inquiry on War Crimes" of October 1986, by the Honourable Justice Jules Deschênes concluded that in relation to membership in the Galicia Division:

    The Galicia Division (14. Waffen grenadier division der SS [gal. #1]) should not be indicted as a group. The members of Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada. Charges of war crimes of Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission. Further, in the absence of evidence of participation or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution.
    Read the rest of that section. Also, it's a German-affiliated division on the eastern front. They did war crimes. That's automatic. That was the whole objective of that campaign.
    Having or not having a monument is not the same thing as deciding if the whole division should have been Charlemagned. The standards of proof are different.

    I did read the rest of the section.
    However, the Commission's conclusion failed to acknowledge or heed the International Military Tribunal's verdict at the Nuremberg Trials, in which the entire Waffen-SS organisation was declared a "criminal organization" guilty of war crimes.[56] Also, the Deschênes Commission in its conclusion only referenced the division as 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Galizische Nr.1), thus in legal terms, only acknowledging the formation's activity after its name change in August 1944, while the massacre of Poles in Huta Pieniacka, Pidkamin and Palikrowy occurred when the division was called SS Freiwilligen Division "Galizien". Nevertheless, a subsequent review by Canada's Minister of Justice again confirmed that members of the Division were not implicated in war crimes. However, other prominent individual Waffen-SS divisions other than "Galiziische NR.1" were cleared of any accusations of war crimes committed by any of its members (e.g. both 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions), and have former members who emigrated legally to Canada.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there's a wiki editor war over a page like this and you can kinda tell from the grammer imo there's been edits. But it generally seems like it's not as simple as "they for sure did war crimes".

  • The Cow KingThe Cow King whipper snapper Registered User regular
    edited July 17
    Nope fighting for the Nazis on the eastern front would entail following the 3 general illegal military orders

    The Nazis literally declared a war of extermination/annhilation the USSR it's pretty clear cut

    I understand the reason they fought but also yeah nope criminal by association

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guidelines_for_the_Conduct_of_the_Troops_in_Russia

    The Cow King on
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  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    You could make that argument if they had existed in 41 (though you'd probably still have to establish that they actually followed those orders), but this particular division was raised in late 43 and deployed in 44 after the red army had pushed the germans out of russia. This particular unit did not ever actually fight in russia for example

  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    We went from talking about bagged milk to nazis in a single day. 2020 making Godwin’s law way too easy now.

    ShadowhopeGnome-InterruptusHandkorLaOs
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    edited July 18
    And then there is this totally unpredictable twist on "We're just going to Alaska" (yes, this is sarcasm):

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/they-should-not-be-going-ashore-u-s-vessels-in-b-c-waters-rattle-vancouver-island-boaters-1.5653722

    It’s almost like we needed to invest in and improve the infrastructure capabilities and capacity of our Coast Guard but that funding was cut, plans scrapped, and then not reinstituted when the political reigns transferred over decades and now it’s not there to be a help with SOS boats, smugglers, and unauthorized landings...

    CanadianWolverine on
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  • The Cow KingThe Cow King whipper snapper Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    You could make that argument if they had existed in 41 (though you'd probably still have to establish that they actually followed those orders), but this particular division was raised in late 43 and deployed in 44 after the red army had pushed the germans out of russia. This particular unit did not ever actually fight in russia for example

    Ok but why are we applauding a SS unit or even arguing for them I don't really give a shit about litigating how much of a war criminal a SS unit operating on the eastern front is

    This is outlandish for me to say probably as we have many holodomor immigrants in Canada but fighting for the Nazis was a vein hope to save a small portion from being deported east after the Nazis won

    They had literal plans for resettlement of the German people and expulsion of the populations I am not exaggerating here

    Like you don't have to hand it to Stalin but just because Russia is a ogiliarcy now doesn't mean you should go to bat for Nazis cause like wtf, it's completely disrespectful to history the USSR suffered greatly and won the fucking war

    Like was the Hudson Bay company right in seizing land and commiting genocide defendable cause it was sanctioned by the British crown.

    Sorry for being rude but I'm pretty upset of any amounts of well actually after learning of the existence of a SS statue

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  • LaOsLaOs SaskatoonRegistered User regular
    No one has to be fucking going to bat for Stalin to say that just because this particular group of Ukrainians who understandably fought against the Soviets (and to do so happened to at the time be fighting as a part of the SS) maybe didn't do the same shit as the entire SS is known for. They've been investigated, multiple times, and found to be free of the war crimes that we generally associate with the SS... we generally associate the war crimes with the SS because generally most did them. It's not like this group was cleared in some sort of blanket statement or situation--they were investigated per member and more than once.

    I still agree that the graffiti of the monument is accurate and valid--it's a Nazi monument to Nazis (so call it out as it is!), but the history of the group and the monument itself is complicated. It's definitely not a goddamned hate crime! Anyway, I think you're losing the main conversation--it's not applauding the Ukrainian group for fighting back against the Soviets in [probably] the most reasonably understandable way at the time, but it is a discussion trying to understand why that weird fucking monument exists in the first place.

    Like, fuck off with tying everything to how horrible Canada has treated the native peoples in its history. That is a horrible history that the government has done a piss poor job of addressing and atoning for, but that doesn't mean that is related to the point you are making here.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    Local march against the Mask Industrial Complex today! They went to city hall (which was closed) and i guess around 37 people showed up. At the same time there was a tornado warning, but sadly, nature didn't solve our "Freedumb" problem and they just got real wet.

  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    I think upthread someone was asking about if they could get advice about benefit options available to them for covid. This isn't advice, but it is a plain language summary of what is available across Canada and from the Provinces:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lOJn7XS6ETIkbLRodYk681M_2dxkkQsc/view

    Author is:Jennifer Robson, Associate Professor of Political Management, Carleton University

    :so_raven:
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Corvus wrote: »
    I think upthread someone was asking about if they could get advice about benefit options available to them for covid. This isn't advice, but it is a plain language summary of what is available across Canada and from the Provinces:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lOJn7XS6ETIkbLRodYk681M_2dxkkQsc/view

    Author is:Jennifer Robson, Associate Professor of Political Management, Carleton University

    The BC Government Website has a really good summary on their COVID page of the various benefits and supports available (though nothing for the particular situation by WiseManTobes.)

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    I hate the ignorance that leads to things like this

    B.C. man who opted out of MSP dies following battle with cancer

    Sadly, given the colon cancer was at Stage 4 when it was discovered, his chances of survival weren't great, but a lot of financial hardship for himself and his family could have been avoided.

    This quote is a summary of how the thought process went
    Benjamin was diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer in February and faced thousands of dollars in hospital bills, as he had opted out of B.C.'s health insurance five years ago.

    Kristina Fuller explains her husband opted out of the mandatory MSP program to save money.

    "He thought the $35 was just additional services and not going to impact his regular services," Fuller said.

    Benjamin, who grew up in Saskatchewan, mistakenly believed MSP premiums were made to cover supplemental procedures like X-rays, while he would still benefit from free national health care.


    Within three months of Benjamin's diagnosis the Fullers had accumulated more than $22,000 in medical bills for hospital visits, tests and prescriptions.

    The bills had become such a burden on the family that Fuller said her husband was avoiding treatment to lower costs.

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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    Awful situation for the family, but self-inflicted. When the original story came out about this, the government had made it pretty clear that he was going to have to pay for a lot of stuff if he opted out. I'm not sure why he didn't get it.

    :so_raven:
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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Corvus wrote: »
    Awful situation for the family, but self-inflicted. When the original story came out about this, the government had made it pretty clear that he was going to have to pay for a lot of stuff if he opted out. I'm not sure why he didn't get it.

    I feel like half the news stories these days are people making terrible, terrible choices.

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    Caedwyr
  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Corvus wrote: »
    Awful situation for the family, but self-inflicted. When the original story came out about this, the government had made it pretty clear that he was going to have to pay for a lot of stuff if he opted out. I'm not sure why he didn't get it.

    I feel like half the news stories these days are people making terrible, terrible choices.

    To be fair, "Person makes wise decision, nothing bad happens" doesn't really bring in the clicks.

    CaedwyrSteelhawkfinnithGnome-InterruptusIncenjucar
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Corvus wrote: »
    Awful situation for the family, but self-inflicted. When the original story came out about this, the government had made it pretty clear that he was going to have to pay for a lot of stuff if he opted out. I'm not sure why he didn't get it.

    I feel like half the news stories these days are people making terrible, terrible choices.

    To be fair, "Person makes wise decision, nothing bad happens" doesn't really bring in the clicks.

    Yeah, I get that.

    All the videos of racists and assholes having public freakouts lately just make me shake my head. I've known some pretty garbage people in my life but they all had a sense of self-preservation.....

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  • CorporateGoonCorporateGoon Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Corvus wrote: »
    Awful situation for the family, but self-inflicted. When the original story came out about this, the government had made it pretty clear that he was going to have to pay for a lot of stuff if he opted out. I'm not sure why he didn't get it.

    I feel like half the news stories these days are people making terrible, terrible choices.

    To be fair, "Person makes wise decision, nothing bad happens" doesn't really bring in the clicks.

    Yeah, I get that.

    All the videos of racists and assholes having public freakouts lately just make me shake my head. I've known some pretty garbage people in my life but they all had a sense of self-preservation.....

    It's hard to tell if it's happening more often or if it's just more visible now that everyone's carrying a video camera around in their pocket. I wonder if Statcan has any data on that sort of thing. Like "Incidents of public assholery 1975-Present" or something

  • seasleepyseasleepy Registered User regular
    Edmonton Football Team should be the new permanent name, make the new logo just a football, then get a sponsorship from No Name. The yellow is almost the same shade already!

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    seasleepy wrote: »
    Edmonton Football Team should be the new permanent name, make the new logo just a football, then get a sponsorship from No Name. The yellow is almost the same shade already!

    The Edmonton " I ♥ Alberta oil" more likely

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  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    seasleepy wrote: »
    Edmonton Football Team should be the new permanent name, make the new logo just a football, then get a sponsorship from No Name. The yellow is almost the same shade already!

    The Edmonton " I ♥ Alberta oil" more likely

    Edmonton Gas Giants (or EGGs) as Oilers and Oil Kings are already taken.

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    The Edmonton Emissions?

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    It's 2020, you have to go dumber.

    They'll call themselves the washington redskins once its available.

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  • ElaroElaro Mister No Fun AllowedRegistered User regular
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    I hate the ignorance that leads to things like this

    B.C. man who opted out of MSP dies following battle with cancer

    Sadly, given the colon cancer was at Stage 4 when it was discovered, his chances of survival weren't great, but a lot of financial hardship for himself and his family could have been avoided.

    This quote is a summary of how the thought process went
    Benjamin was diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer in February and faced thousands of dollars in hospital bills, as he had opted out of B.C.'s health insurance five years ago.

    Kristina Fuller explains her husband opted out of the mandatory MSP program to save money.

    "He thought the $35 was just additional services and not going to impact his regular services," Fuller said.

    Benjamin, who grew up in Saskatchewan, mistakenly believed MSP premiums were made to cover supplemental procedures like X-rays, while he would still benefit from free national health care.


    Within three months of Benjamin's diagnosis the Fullers had accumulated more than $22,000 in medical bills for hospital visits, tests and prescriptions.

    The bills had become such a burden on the family that Fuller said her husband was avoiding treatment to lower costs.

    I'm sorry, but a man dying because he opted out of a flat fee that gatekept his health care strikes me as inhumane and unfair. If he was that strapped for cash that he couldn't afford the 35$ then, maybe he was actually poor and BCers should rethink how they finance their health care so as to cover every resident, not just the ones who a) can afford the flat tax and b) are familiar with the system.

    Don't get me wrong, this is definitely user error. But it's user error caused by poor design on the part of the BC government.

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Alberta: We are very troubled by increased numbers of cases in Alberta. Make sure to follow social distancing guidelines!

    Also Alberta: Okay everyone back to school in September. Have fun, teachers!

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    No mandatory masks in schools, either

    Ahhhhh I don't fucking get it

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited July 21
    Elaro wrote: »
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    I hate the ignorance that leads to things like this

    B.C. man who opted out of MSP dies following battle with cancer

    Sadly, given the colon cancer was at Stage 4 when it was discovered, his chances of survival weren't great, but a lot of financial hardship for himself and his family could have been avoided.

    This quote is a summary of how the thought process went
    Benjamin was diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer in February and faced thousands of dollars in hospital bills, as he had opted out of B.C.'s health insurance five years ago.

    Kristina Fuller explains her husband opted out of the mandatory MSP program to save money.

    "He thought the $35 was just additional services and not going to impact his regular services," Fuller said.

    Benjamin, who grew up in Saskatchewan, mistakenly believed MSP premiums were made to cover supplemental procedures like X-rays, while he would still benefit from free national health care.


    Within three months of Benjamin's diagnosis the Fullers had accumulated more than $22,000 in medical bills for hospital visits, tests and prescriptions.

    The bills had become such a burden on the family that Fuller said her husband was avoiding treatment to lower costs.

    I'm sorry, but a man dying because he opted out of a flat fee that gatekept his health care strikes me as inhumane and unfair. If he was that strapped for cash that he couldn't afford the 35$ then, maybe he was actually poor and BCers should rethink how they finance their health care so as to cover every resident, not just the ones who a) can afford the flat tax and b) are familiar with the system.

    Don't get me wrong, this is definitely user error. But it's user error caused by poor design on the part of the BC government.



    If you check the article they already have.

    Also from the comments of another article
    This guy was bragging all over his social media last year about how he outsmarted the government by opting out of the $35 payment. It wasn't about saving money, he wanted to prove a point about "evil taxes". It turns out that paying taxes is actually a good thing because public services cost money.

    Phoenix-D on
    Caedwyr
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    No mandatory masks in schools, either

    Ahhhhh I don't fucking get it

    Getting it's easy: it's the UCP.

    Teachers leaving the profession - or dying - both fall under the "win" column for that party and a sizeable chunk of its voters.

    The ones who stick around get to Save The Economy by taking the kids off their parents' hands, so the party gets to enjoy the accolades for that until the first week of October, when the mass outbreaks they're ordering get everything shut down again.

  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    At this point I think the mass outbreaks starting in October might be overly optimistic. I dunno if we'll make it through the summer

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Yeah, but any communities which are dumb enough to do an Alberta-style "everything's open in person, and we're not using PPE, sanitation or even screening because any of those would mean public schools getting resources" are going to have bigass spikes in a bunch of schools three weeks into the term.

  • darkmayodarkmayo Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    No mandatory masks in schools, either

    Ahhhhh I don't fucking get it

    here is the news for those who dont hang on our delightfully fucked provinces daily dumps.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-schools-in-person-classes-this-fall-1.5657774

    Yea... going to be a huge spike in Sept, I mean.. among the spike we are already seeing here in Alberta due to people being fucksticks.

    Hmm I wonder the wholesale opening of schools and no additional funding is going to cause a problem for school boards.. like lets say the Calgary Board of Education. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/cbe-calgary-board-of-education-schools-audit-1.5577794 Oh sorry CBE due to even more costs dumped onto you and no additional funding we were forced to fire your democratically elected board and replace them with UCP sympathetic shitbags.

  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    No extra funding for the CBE is crazy pants.

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    ImperfectShadowen
  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited July 22
    Elaro wrote: »
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    I hate the ignorance that leads to things like this

    B.C. man who opted out of MSP dies following battle with cancer

    Sadly, given the colon cancer was at Stage 4 when it was discovered, his chances of survival weren't great, but a lot of financial hardship for himself and his family could have been avoided.

    This quote is a summary of how the thought process went
    Benjamin was diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer in February and faced thousands of dollars in hospital bills, as he had opted out of B.C.'s health insurance five years ago.

    Kristina Fuller explains her husband opted out of the mandatory MSP program to save money.

    "He thought the $35 was just additional services and not going to impact his regular services," Fuller said.

    Benjamin, who grew up in Saskatchewan, mistakenly believed MSP premiums were made to cover supplemental procedures like X-rays, while he would still benefit from free national health care.


    Within three months of Benjamin's diagnosis the Fullers had accumulated more than $22,000 in medical bills for hospital visits, tests and prescriptions.

    The bills had become such a burden on the family that Fuller said her husband was avoiding treatment to lower costs.

    I'm sorry, but a man dying because he opted out of a flat fee that gatekept his health care strikes me as inhumane and unfair. If he was that strapped for cash that he couldn't afford the 35$ then, maybe he was actually poor and BCers should rethink how they finance their health care so as to cover every resident, not just the ones who a) can afford the flat tax and b) are familiar with the system.

    Don't get me wrong, this is definitely user error. But it's user error caused by poor design on the part of the BC government.

    He just did this because he thought he could save money, there was no indication that they were in dire financial straights when he chose to decline to pay for healthcare.

    Here's the story from when this first hit the media:

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-man-opted-msp-drowning-medical-bills-cancer-diagnosis-1.5582957

    You had to opt out for 12 month periods, which he chose to do for five years. So, there's no excuse for the ignorance here. Here's the quote from his wife:

    ""He opted out when he realized there was a process for it, and he thought, oh, this is great, why would I pay an additional medical premium for services that I probably won't need. I'll just rely on the, I guess, regular Canadian health care," Kristina said. "

    If they were so broke they felt they had to do this, I'm sure his wife would have brought that up.

    Also, the province has now eliminated MSP fees, they're doing a fee to employers instead. And when premiums still existed, there was assistance available for low income people!

    Corvus on
    :so_raven:
    ShivahnGnome-InterruptusCaedwyrApogeeCanadianWolverine
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    I was going to say that there really should never have been a way to opt out of health care.

    The province will be paying for it either by footing the bill directly or indirectly with interest when the tax paying citizen goes bankrupt or becomes unproductive due to illness and then any bills that are unpaid are claimed for tax write offs.

    May as well pay the bills directly and have better health outcomes.

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    MWO: Adamski
    mrondeauImperfectElaroBionicPenguinKetBraShadowenEl MuchoBouwsTCanadianWolverine
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